Detriot doesnt have food????

[cyrus buelton]

Dude, you can't "however" these people.  Clearly you have nice things (a Ducati, for example) and care about them.  But what if you never had ANYTHING?  All the clothing you wore and the food you ate and the house you live in and the books you read in school, all were secondhand, beat-up, overpriced crap.  I can pretty much guarantee that "keeping it nice" wouldn't occur to you.  You'd never even have a baseline of what "nice" even looked like.

-Dan

I understand what you are saying.


that is where community leaders and groups need to lead a charge to better their neighborhoods and their lives. Parents need to start taking part in their kids education and giving a shit what they grow up to be.

I think I might be getting borderline political here, so I should probably stop.

or

I should stop smoking the doobie as I am becoming a "dreamer"

[Pakhan]

I'd love for some people to try to live in neighborhoods like this for a year. Blaming people for their poverty is far too simple minded to be taken seriously. Poverty is a complex issue with MANY variables. People in poverty is one of them.

Akron had some real problems w/ urban decay after the rubber industry left in the 1980s. One neighborhood I lived in petitioned for almost 20 years to get a grocery store in their area. They finally got it. It's not Detroit level poverty, just a poor industrial area. The store is not tagged up and neighborhood activists paint over any tags that show up throughout the community. The store is thriving and even expanding now. When I lived in the area, I was fortunate enough to have a car. I could drive to the burbs and get groceries. People who took the bus couldn't nearly as well.

You're right it is a complex issue, but blaming people for their poverty isn't simple minded.  Anything you do, short of turning it into a prison type system (supermarket w/ barb wire etc.) will depend on people of the community and if that part of it isn't working for the better it's a lost cause.

I lived in a bunch of crap holes and in one project for 5 years all in nyc .  Some of those neighborhoods had people that earned dirt but still took care of their neighborhood and in turn the neighborhood had sustainable businesses.  Same income bracket different neighborhood and all you find is chinese take out and liquor stores with bulletproof glass cages.

I can pretty much guarantee that "keeping it nice" wouldn't occur to you.
-Dan

Actually it did, because I knew I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.

[cyrus buelton]

Actually it did, because I knew I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.

Again, that is something that parents need to teach their children at a young age.

Be respectful of your property/possession and if you break it/lose it/etc, there is not going to be a replacement.

[Pakhan]

Again, that is something that parents need to teach their children at a young age.

Be respectful of your property/possession and if you break it/lose it/etc, there is not going to be a replacement.

absolutely, but sometimes that's just a lesson you find out the hard way or just keep repeating.

[Razzo Bolognese]

...I lived in a bunch of crap holes and in one project for 5 years all in nyc .  Some of those neighborhoods had people that earned dirt but still took care of their neighborhood and in turn the neighborhood had sustainable businesses.  Same income bracket different neighborhood and all you find is chinese take out and liquor stores with bulletproof glass cages.

Actually it did, because I knew I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.

Jake I'm guessing those five years in the ghetto weren't the formative years of your life.  Also, I'm not saying people aren't the master of their own destinies.  I'm just saying that our perspective is not the same as their perspective.  The people in my Harlem neighborhood are working class, good people who care about their 'hood and the shops etc. therein.  Still, it is in Harlem.  I've NEVER seen a street sweeper, I've NEVER seen a traffic cop and I've NEVER seen my subway stop look freshly painted.   There's no political grease money so there are no improvements being made.  Money talks.  This is why poor folks have no voice in politics.

My two bits,

-Dan

[cyrus buelton]

 Still, it is in Harlem.  I've NEVER seen a street sweeper, I've NEVER seen a traffic cop and I've NEVER seen my subway stop look freshly painted.   There's no political grease money so there are no improvements being made.  Money talks.  This is why poor folks have no voice in politics.

I bet if the less respectful citizens quit make the beast with two backsing shit up, then they would see those nice improvements.

Why should the city spend money to paint a subway stop that is just going to get defaced the next day?

[Triple J]

Again, that is something that parents need to teach their children at a young age.

Exactly.

Being poor does not mean you can't be a respectful and good person.

I grew up fairly poor. When I was very young my mom would often skip meals so I could eat, and go to daycare when she was at work. We may not have had the nicest or newest things, but what we had was clean and taken care of.

Even during my elementary through middle school years my parents (an awesome step dad now in the picture) didn't have a lot of money. I never got the cool clothes I wanted, and didn't have much extra. We lived in a so so neighborhood. However, our house was always kept nice, and I always was told the importance of school and being a good, honest person...responsible for myself. It wasn't until I hit High School that things started to turn around for my parents financially...by then I knew that I needed to work (literally) for anything I wanted.

It all boils down to parenting. If the parents are alcoholics, druggies, or thugs then the kids most likely will be as well. If the parents are good people, then the kids most likely will be as well. There are plenty of kids out there that grew up in the projects and are now successful.

[Pakhan]

Jake I'm guessing those five years in the ghetto weren't the formative years of your life. Also, I'm not saying people aren't the master of their own destinies.  I'm just saying that our perspective is not the same as their perspective.  The people in my Harlem neighborhood are working class, good people who care about their 'hood and the shops etc. therein.  Still, it is in Harlem.  I've NEVER seen a street sweeper, I've NEVER seen a traffic cop and I've NEVER seen my subway stop look freshly painted.   There's no political grease money so there are no improvements being made.  Money talks.  This is why poor folks have no voice in politics.

My two bits,

-Dan

You're right not my formative years.

Yes it's true you won't have the same attention toward a poor working class good neighborhood as opposed to a mid/ high income neighborhood.  It's just the way that is though, but it's still better when the community respects itself and hopefully municipal help will come in later.

[ducatiz]

It's not worth talking about.  You can't save people (adults and teens..)..  Nurturing is destiny. 

We went to dinner last night at a nice place, saw a family from a particular country that I won't name  They were dressed nicely, but ate like they grew up in the woods.  Hands all in the food, talking with food hanging out of their mouths, wiping their mouth on sleeves.

Like I said, they were dressed nicely, but their mannerisms bespoke an upbringing far from civilization -- and those were just table manners.

Change table manners with "problem solution" and "dispute resolution" and "common courtesy" and you have the recipe for a really nasty soup.

[pitbull03]

It's not worth talking about.  You can't save people (adults and teens..)..  Nurturing is destiny. 

We went to dinner last night at a nice place, saw a family from a particular country that I won't name  They were dressed nicely, but ate like they grew up in the woods.  Hands all in the food, talking with food hanging out of their mouths, wiping their mouth on sleeves.

Like I said, they were dressed nicely, but their mannerisms bespoke an upbringing far from civilization -- and those were just table manners.

Change table manners with "problem solution" and "dispute resolution" and "common courtesy" and you have the recipe for a really nasty soup.

I'm guessing mid-east or Africa.  Been to those locations and that's their 'norm' for table manners.  I would attribute that more to culture differences than manners/ lack of respect.  Go to China and it's a compliment to the chef to burp at the table.  Fart in someone else's house in Afghanistan and you've started a blood feud.  Cultural differences.

Tearing up your own neighborhood because you feel neglected or oppressed is just stupid.  There is no excuse for this type of behavior.  There is lots of money to be made in these urban areas if the inhabitants would simply behave themselves, but their own actions are the reason no sane businessman wants to open shop.  I've lived in these areas and we traveled out of the area to do our shopping to avoid our neighbors.  Go to a movie in an economically stressed urban setting and see the behavior of the locals.  Disgusting.

[redxblack]

Maybe if these people were respectful and acted like a good human, there would be stores in their neighborhoods.

However, they choose to disrespect the privilege by vandalism, graffitti, theft, robbery, loitering, etc.

People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.

[cyrus buelton]

People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.

Cyrus's Solution:

1. Bring back neighborhood schools
2. Require parents to walk children <10 to school or drive them
3. Replace teachers with Sociologists.
4. Teach said children what it is like to be a respectful person
5. Require parents to sign off on kids homework
6. Smoke another J because my idea is so far fetched, but legit.

[pitbull03]

People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.

People who don't behave like criminals usually have prospects and opportunities.  Their current plight is a symptom of their behavior.

[Triple J]

People who have prospects and opportunities generally don't engage in these behaviors. These are symptoms rather than causes.

How do they not have opportunities? The is the US, not Somalia.

There are jobs everywhere. Maybe not their dream job, and they may not become rich, but there are jobs. There are also public schools so no one has an excuse for not taking advantage of it. Beyond K-12 there are also trade schools, union apprenticeship programs, community colleges, govt. education loans, etc. There is also public transit in most places to get them to their job/school/whatever.

People have to stop making excuses and blaming others.

[ducatiz]

How do they not have opportunities? The is the US, not Somalia.

There are jobs everywhere. Maybe not their dream job, and they may not become rich, but there are jobs. There are also public schools so no one has an excuse for not taking advantage of it. Beyond K-12 there are also trade schools, union apprenticeship programs, community colleges, govt. education loans, etc. There is also public transit in most places to get them to their job/school/whatever.

People have to stop making excuses and blaming others.

amen to that

back home, grunt construction jobs were always taken by college age kids of all kinds (when i was growing up)... not the skilled stuff but the unskilled stuff.  at some point, the college kids started refusing to do that work, never mind it was $25/hour (and this was the 80s).

for that reason, and I do not criticize them for it, hispanics moved in, mostly from Mexico and started taking the crap jobs.  now, my home town has 4 spanish radio stations and there are tons of spanish businesses (restaurants, law firms, etc).  All the latino workers took the $25/hr jobs, said "this is make the beast with two backsing great" and put their kids in college and are moving up.