Ducati Monster Forum

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......

I got a page 13 today stating that I am not allowed to ride my bike until I complete this course. It is a Department of the Navy mandate that all "Sport Bike" riders complete this course to be allowed to ride on OR off base.

#1 I think the fact that they are singling out "Sport Bikes" from any other type of motorcycle is ridiculous.  You can go out and buy a 400hp Camaro but don't have to take a different course than people who drive a Kia. (military personnel 26 and under must attend a generic driver's safety course) I understand that the Navy has had more fatalities due to a particular "type" of motorcycle, but why not take age into consideration like they due with the driver's safety course?

#2 Nothing in the instruction (OPNAVINST 5100.12G) defines what a "Sport Bike" is.  My insurance company considers it a standard.

#3 I have not been allowed the time to attend the required course (8 hours) due to my current course of instruction at IDC school. The next available class is right in the middle of my ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) course.

[/RANT]

Soooooooooo........  are Harleys excluded?

Look at it this way... its winter now.  You won't be riding anyway. ;D

So...

do the obvious and point out the details.

Then do the obvious...

what they tell you. ;)

I did, I sent an email out asking for clarification.

Also, If I wasn't going to do what they told me, I wouldn't have posted this as a RANT. ;D

From what I have heard down here (Pearl Harbor safety office), any motorcycle with foot controls that are not positioned forward of the rider's torso will be considered a sport bike.  Kind of (insert favorite descriptive word here)...

In regards to the course, I did recently read some scary statistics that between Oct 2007 & Sep 2008 24 Marines died in Combat while 36 died in Motorcycle accidents. And 80% of those Motorcycles were sportbikes. Apparently the Corps are taking this statistic very seriously

Congrats on IDC school [thumbsup]
Before I forget, the instruction is on "H" now vice "G". Even though monsters are considered standard bikes, it's a sport type riding which I guess is supposed to be different from a sport bike. All riders are required to complete an advanced course-ERC for all non sport bike riders and MSRC for all sport style riders. As far as the age, the majority of accidents are with sport bike riders, but in the younger age bracket.

The military is required by the CNO to allow all motorcyclist the time off to complete these mandated courses, but being in a school especially IDC, that can be difficult. If you can find two rider coaches that are qualed for the MSRC, they CAN do it on the weekend. My command has a few rider coaches who usually do the courses on the weekend.

Good luck with school and trying to get the time off to do the course.

Fixed

Thanks, even being in the Navy, I often generalize.

Yeah, reading over it, H is just a very minor revision on G, more like just an ACN change...

I spent a lot of time (hours) on the phone trying to get someone to answer this question, including the naval safety center.  No one could define a "sport bike".  Usually went like this "well, what bike do you ride?"  "A Ducati Mon . . ."  "It's a sportbike."  "Why?" "It's a Ducati"  I had heard of the foot position thing but no written definition.  Then I bought the 748, no more argument.

At my previous command I tried to pass off track school as annual "advanced rider training".  Worked great until the XO looked up Cornerspeed on the internet.

I was required to "declare" all motorcycles that I own (make, model, type, CC's, BRC, ERC, MSBRC, years riding) the first day I checked into my current command.  I put "Track" down under the 748.  And the next week I found myself discussing this with my local friendly O-5.  Including him asking me why I really need 3 bikes.  (sounds like my wife.)

I joke about being treated like a criminal for riding a sport bike in the Navy, but it is the truth.  And it keeps getting worse.  

My recommendation:  Put on some frame sliders and tell everyone they are highway pegs. ;D
Or, we could just swap bikes?  Then you wouldn't be riding YOUR bike.

This is actually a really good saying, especially in regards to the Navy.

There's a paragraph regarding borrowed bikes...

Same requirements I assume.   I'm confident you can ride better than most of the students we had in our class.  Several had less than 500 miles on their bikes.

That's the thing. No stipulations on miles ridden, years of experience, or age. Overall poorly executed instruction...

Jeez, and they let people like Joel buy 1098s. Must be infuriating  :P

Just like 90% of the revisions...Knee Jerk.

You beat me to it.

yeah, the classification is pretty lame, esp where the monsters do kind of fall into a grey area...  of course, given the explanation of, "it's a ducati" what would happen if you rode an indiana?  :D

which reminds me, I gotta sign for for that class at some point

When I have to take it again in a year and a half, I'm gonna bring the '66 Sebring 350.  All 25 HP of it.  The foot position is directly underneath the rider, just like the monster, must be a sportbike.

Must be the same guys that worked on TF uniform.

Either way, all riders have to take an advanced rider course and the MSRC is a lot more than the ERC. MSRC goes over decreasing radius', body positions, trail braking, and there's no grade. Just go and ride.

The ERC is pretty much like the BRC only a little faster and the BRC was boring.

I appreciate the OP's frustration..... however.

I think there are some things to consider.

1.  A monster is a sport bike, there is no grey area
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monster%20track%20day/tattoo-2-100.jpg)
look at that, can a harley do that?  It may not be a superbike but it'd definitely a sport bike.  I would also as far as saying that ever bike ducati makes IS a sport bike.  I've seen multistradas and ST3s on the track dragging knees.  After all ducati is a bike manufacturer that more or less sells their racing heritage.  What do you expect.

2.  The Navy essentially owns you.  They take you on as an investment and if something is statistically causing issues where their investment is not usefull then I can understand them taking action.  The fatalities are bad enough, but consider how many soldiers are probably injured and costing health care money and time off work.  More education is always better

3.  If sport bikes are statistically the problem, then that is who they are going to work with.  If all the Harley riders were crashing and the sport bike guys were not then they'd be making the Harley style bike riders do something (like maybe work on not drinking while riding or something).  I don't think this has to do with the type of bike so much as the type of rider that rides the type of bike, but that is another discussion

4.  I completely agree that track riding likely far exceeds any safety course you are going to take and you are probably the exception to this rule as you likely know how to handle your sport bikes

5.  Why would the Navy go out of their way to make exceptions for skilled riders.   They are just leaving themselves open to loopholes and incurring a higher cost of organizing this information for your conveinience.  It's not like they are asking you to do something bad for yourself either.  

So although, the reaction is kneejerk and may be on the harsh side, I can totally see where they are coming from.  They put thousands of dollars into each soldier and turn around and see many of them getting killed on these bikes.  I think, if nothing else, from a perception standpoint they have to do something.  It looks bad!  Not to mention no one likes to hear about people getting killed.  

One of my cop friends has a friend that fits perfectly into this category.  Bought an R1 for his first bike, got in a wreck in the first 300 miles and now doesn't ride.  The idiot didn't take a safety course and basically assumed he could just get on a liter bike and be an awesome rider right out of the gate because he rode dirt bikes when he was a kid.  The only way to get this guy educated would be to force him.  

So basically, you are suffering because your peers are not smart riders and I do sympathize with the huge inconvienience but honestly I can't see a better way for the Navy to deal with it and I do think this serves the greater good.  

Very poor logic with this one.  Not every Ducati is a sport bike.  As Teddy pointed out, have you ever seen an Indiana?  Sure, they haven't made them in years but they are still out there.  Also, what about the older Elephants?  They are still going; a Navy buddy of mine back on the main-land has two.  Beyond that, a Monster really isn't a true sports bike.  Call it what you will, but the most apt description would probably be sporty standard.  Sure you can take it around a track, but unlike a true sport bike, that is not its primary purpose.  And as far as the photo goes, I have seen people on Goldwings get a knee down, does that make their scoot a sport bike too?

KBB also has the monster listed under "standard/cruiser"

putting rearsets on a sportster would alter the foot position, thus making it a 'sport bike' if ergos are the only criteria.


must find video from deal's gap...

oh, and I never get tired of this picture:
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/06/Goldwing-wheelie.jpg)

when it's all said and done, we still gotta comply... [roll] but it is certainly rant-worthy

H.D Salute  military


(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200911/harley-davidson-and-_460x0w.jpg)

http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/harley-davidson-and-marisa-miller-salute-the-us-military-ar81180.html (http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/harley-davidson-and-marisa-miller-salute-the-us-military-ar81180.html)

Point taken, there are some that are not sport bikes I wasn't considering the very old bikes, but I still say all of the modern ducatis, IE anything sold right now is a sport bike from them.  A monster is definitely a sport bike IMO.  It's not a "superbike" but it's a sport bike.  A goldwing is a sport touring bike. 

How to define it?  Well I guess we could argue all day about it, but the foot position, the type of suspension, the brakes, the motor, the light weight, the tires.   The wheels.  Most of the components on my s2r1000 are superbike bolt ons or very similar.  It just doesn't have fairings and it has straight bars and the geometry is slightly different.  People not only track monsters they race them professionally.  Not as often as super bikes but you do see it.  I saw it at Mid-OH for the AMA stuff this year. 

OK sure, harley's are raced as well but I really think there is still a major difference between all modern ducatis and the standard bikes or cruisers.  I really think the argument is more that a monster is not a superbike but is a sport bike.   

There's only three categories MSF uses for motorcycles: Sport, cruiser, and dirt. Monsters aren't cruisers in the sense of harleys, victory's, etc and by default fall under sport.

Again, what it boils down to is everyone has to take one of the two courses. Harleys, goldwings, dual sports have to take the ERC and any other sporty type bike will take the MSRC.

Do you know who's teaching the required course??

Lee Parks (http://www.psnnewsletter.com/newsletters/29399_2009_6_12_12_0_14.html) has been doing the training course for the Marines and is set to start with the Air Force;  maybe he'll be teaching the Navy course as well. 

If you go in with an open mind you may actually learn something.   [moto]

Chris,

I can completely understand your feelings about this and I'm sure that they are infuriated further by the fact that your abilities as a licensed rider haven't been tested nor are you able to attending testing - so you've been cut off cold turkey. I can see that it must feel like you've (and other riders in your same position) are being singled out. That's very clear.

I agree that you are considered an investment to the military, and thus the US govt does have a stake in your safety, buuuut I don't agree in the method for which they have sanctioned your legal and licensed citizen freedom to ride off base. The flip side to that is that (if I understand it correctly) this is the gray area where military jurisdiction can overrule your civil rights granted by local, and state govt - ie your state endorsement. 

So, while I sympathize with you, hope that Diva is right and that you can take the course with Lee Parks school - it's really a great experience any way you look at it  - aaaaannd it's winter - so at least you're not stuck unable to ride during the best time of the year.

Good luck - hope you pass - just between you and I, I won't tell anyone that you've only been riding for 3 weeks and that you like to ride in shorts, flip-flops, and a tank top that says "GO NAVY" written in black Sharpie marker on the back.  [cheeky]

never should have let tom cruise in the navy....

HAHA!

yeah, all things aside, I can see the frustration of being a pretty seasoned rider and having big brother tell you you aren't aloud until you go to some course. 

I guess I can just see that the military was looking to make this happen, this will certainly motivate everyone to get it done. 

The classes are taught by MSF coaches. There is a course that Lee parks teaches as well, "Total Control" as it's called; However, it's an additional course and doesn't replace the other course. It's supposed to be really good though, about setting up your suspension, cornering, getting your knee down, all that stuff.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the military does control any and all (most) activities that happen on or off base. Just like PPE has to be worn 100% of the time and if you're in an accident and found without it, the govt can deny paying the medical bills.

Definitely not the motor. What "sport bike" manufactured in the last 10 years is aircooled?

Also, let's look at the 06 620, non adjustable forks, heavier than it's I-4 600 counterparts, small 2 pot brakes. What's left? The foot position?

What about the Aprilia RS50? Based on your specs, that's a sport bike that does 50-70mph with a whopping 6hp...

Isn't a Ninja 250 considered a "sport bike" too?

Ducati Super Sport?

I really don't have a problem with the requirement to take the course. It really is a decent course for the average rider.  Or the annual training requirements, motorcycle mentors, etc.   What I do have a problem is with the attitude that goes with the policy and making the course available to all who need it.

Maybe it is just me, but when every command finds out I ride a sport bike they treat me like I am 18, never ridden, just bought a GSXR 1000 yesterday and will go out of my way to ride like an idiot and kill myself.  I know these are the type of riders they are trying to help, but that is clearly not me.  But that is the way I am treated.  Period.  Nothing I can do to change that, I have tried.

For many people it has been difficult/impossible to take the course due to time at sea, deployments, schools, course availability etc.  It took over 6 months before I could get into a course, they were all full.  It is never convenient for a command to give up a sailor for a day and will push and push to have you find a "better time" to take the course.

So, let's say 18 year old shore sailor wants to buy a sport bike.  He signs up for the two courses.  Buys the bike, takes the BRC a week later and then takes the MSBRC 2 weeks later.  And has less than 500 miles on the bike when done.  (4 students in my class) All boxes are checked, he is good to ride wherever, whenever.   Now you have Mr. Exact and others, who can't get into a class for various reasons and have not checked all of the boxes, do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not ride your bike.

Exactly. Plus, the instruction contradicts the recommendations of the MSF. It states that a rider should take the ERC as soon as possible after the BRC, preferably within 60 days. MSF recommends 6 months or 1000 miles...

They DO push for completing ERC/MSRC with in a short amount of time, BUT the BRC is good for one year. So Technically you just have to complete the next course with in that year and the ERC/MSRC are good for three years now.

I guess attitude is different at each command; we've had some serious accidents-one guy lost both his legs for example-but a lot of us still go to track days and command rides which is supported. Our whole thing is that we hold a safety brief before hand and the more we ride together, the safer we'll be and other riders can provide critiques.

Those stipulations would all be moot.

1) how would you prove the miles ridden? Would they be useful? Sunshine across say, nebraska and 3k isnot the same as 3k in a monsoon in say, the mountains of Oregon.

2) Years of experience? How do we count this? If I rode a motorcycle once when I was 18 and I'm 29 now and buy my first bike, have I been riding for 11 years?

3) Age-like we don't have older people who ride who are morons? The second highest risk group *is* older riders.

What stipulations would make a real difference? Miles ridden is probably the most useful. Would we take the number of accidents during those miles ridden into it?

Seriously? This thing is still an issue?

I mean, I realize you're in school. But they came out with this course LAST YEAR. There hasn't been one course in the last 70 some odd weeks you could make it to? Its ONE DAY.

I can understand your frustration. The military makes riding a huge pain in the dick. But you can't tell me you couldn't see this one coming.

Nope, I've been in school since July of last year. I could miss a day of school, but the OIC says that if I do, I can't continue with my class because I'll miss class.

But....That would be against the CNO's policy which mandates ALL must attend these courses and ALL supervisors must allow the time off to complete these courses without reprisal.

I understand, however, the course of instruction is pretty fast paced and in depth. The next available course is halfway through ACLS...

I think IDC school is on the east coast right? Too bad. In SoCal, they're offering the class 2-3 times a week.

Submarine IDC is in Groton, CT. Surface IDC is in San Diego, CA, soon to be San Antonio, TX...

Everybody's situation is different.  I was lucky enough to be on shore tour when it came out.  I could easily see where if I was on a boat I would legitimately be able to see where I may not be able to attend a scheduled course for over a year based on underway schedules and evolutions unless I had a VERY understanding command.

Personally, I am serious thoughts about NOT going to several track days next summer based on the implications on my command if I get hurt. 

There is always the "needs of the mission" clause that exempts any command/commander from any policy.

You have to play the whole sea lawyer card with it. "I could be seriously hurt or killed by not having this course and I guess that's why your boss says I have to go to this course with in this time frame."

Can't really play that card when you have been directed not to ride until/unless you have taken the course. 

Ok, so the bottom line then is that this is what the govt is requiring and there's nothing that you can do about it. So suck it up, and deal with it - in the mean time, go waste some ammo or crash a Humvee or two...or in this case, do a curb check with a submarine. That'll show'em!!

[cheeky]

Pretty much.  They always include "small print" to exclude themselves from having to abide by any requirement that is issued, but woe unto you if you try to find a way out of that same requirement, however logical your case may be.

Yes, I would consider the 620 a sportbike and I would consider the RS50 a sport bike and the ninja 250 a sport bike.    I guess it is hard to define with hard limits on horsepower or adjustable/non adjustable suspension.  The 620 still has USD forks and a pretty sporty geometry.  It's just a lower end model.  The RS50 is very small and low hp but.....

I dunno people,  call them whatever you want.  If you didn't call the RS50 a sport bike what else would you call it anyway.  

Air cooled,  The GSXRs all used to be air cooled,  the ducati supersport runs the same motor as the monsters.  Several BMWs are air oil cooled that I would consider a sport bike.  

Maybe look at it like this.  Think about cars.  There is a pretty broad definition of what a sports car is.  The Lotus Elise is relatively low horsepower and lightweight.  Definitely a sports car.   My VW GTI or a Mazda Miata might be borderline as a sports car.  Something like the Chevy corvette is a sports car but borderline supercar.  ZR1 would probably fall into supercar category, Ferrari Enzo - supercar.  That's just it though, there are sport bikes, which is a broad range of "sporty" bikes.  Or bikes made to ride for sport or recreation and then there are superbikes which are still definitely in the sport bike category but are primarily geared towards nothing but competitive racing.  I'd say the superbikes from the I-4 600s up to the 1000s really are secondarily road vehicles and primarily race vehicles where as a ducati monster is a sporty motorcycle that does well on the street but is not out of place on the track.  

Anyway, then consider vehicles like the ford taurus or maybe a BMW 7 series.  The 7 series might be like a Kawi Concourse.  Has a lot of the cool parts from the ZX-14 but more made for touring.  

I dunno, it's just my take on things.  Trying to put all these bikes in a box to dispute them being sport bikes seems silly to me.  It just seems apparent to me based on the bikes intended design.  If it's something that is more made to carv corners than anything else, mostly I'd say it's a sport bike.  Sure there are exception like supermoto bikes but that's life.  If it's made to cover long distances primarily but also is fun to do some cornering in.  That might be a sport touring bike.  Having said that I supposed you could negate the Multistrada from the sport bike category but I still think it fits in on the borderline, same with the hypermotard but who knows.   To me, it's a ducati, it's made to corner and go fast and the other stuff is secondary.  That's just my take.  I would compare a ducati touring bike to something like the porsche panamera or the few and far between 4 door Ferrari's like the 412 or the 2+2 456.  

Either way, the monster is not primarily a touring bike and it's not a supermoto, it's a naked sport bike, like the SV650, SV1000 and the Aprilia Tueno or MV Brutale or KTM superduke or Triumph Speed/Street triple.   I don't see the point in differentiating the 620 from the S4Rs.  Although one has way more HP and better suspension the basic design of the bike and the way it rides is the same.  It's like the standard Lotus Elise vs. the Supercharged Exige.  One is sportier but they are both sports cars.  


As far as the military things go.  I think the biggest failure I've read is that classes are full and not convenient for everyone.  If you are going to heavy handedly require this class, it would be respectful to make it overly available.  

I was just being direct and to the point. As I said in my first response to this thread - I totally sympathize.

Me too.  Especially because I am one of the poor sods that gets caught up in all this crap.  lol

The Navy doesn't care if you like to ride motorcycles. They didn't issue you one in your sea bag did they? if I were you, I would be glad they didn't require you to take the course every 18 months or something like that. School will end sometime, just take the class then. You must have some leave time coming your way.

I bet when you get back to the command you could even get your shop supervisor (or whatever you sub guys call them) to give you a day off. Just say hey man can I take a day off to....? He would probably say yea. That way you don't have to route a special request form.

"I respectfully request with sugar on top, pretty please to get the day off"...  routed to the, Co, Xo, Cheif, LPO, command masterchief of a different command than yours, to Seamanjustgotmake the beast with two backsed, the base supply yeoman, president Obama, The CNO etc.


(Do they still use those?)

Yes, yes we do. Special request chits. Which are actually life savers, one day it's okay to have a day off, until that day comes and they don't remember giving you that day off.

I won't have a "supervisor" per se. As the MDR, I will be the only enlisted department head and report directly to the Executive Officer.

As far as getting a day off when I want one? I make my own schedule. If I want to come in at 10, I will, but you'll be damn sure that I will get what needs to be done before I leave...