I think I need to replace my springs to compensate my weight. I've researched this forum and have read mixed reviews about the RaceTech.com spring calculator.
I'm a heavier rider -- about 250 pounds. I also enjoy curvy roads and twisty-filled road trips. I'm doing well losing a bit of weight, and as my weight goes down, the more I enjoy more aggressive riding.
So here is a link to the calculator I was talking about:
http://old.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Ducati&yr=95-99&ml=900%20Monster&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork (http://old.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Ducati&yr=95-99&ml=900%20Monster&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork)
Here is what I am considering for my 1996 m900.
Front:
FRSP S3534095 RT FRK SPR 34.7x340mm .95kg $109.99
Rear:
SRSP S5818085 RT SHK SPR 58.2x178mm 8.5kg $109.99
Any thoughts?
Do you think an 8.9 would be better for the rear, or am I way off altogether?
That's me in front, on the way to Prescott, AZ last month
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/dietrichpfeifer/Oct24-09-Ride/Oct24-09-Ride022.jpg)
I'd say 1.0 springs for the front, and an 11.5 for the rear.
RaceTech calculator is wrong for rear suspensions on Monsters.
If it's an ST framed monster I think the rear would be even stiffer. Like a 12.5...8.5 isn't stiff enough.
Check with gage. He has an S4 and weighs about the same.
'96 M900, so a hoop-style rear.
Those seem to go about 1.0 lighter than the ST framed bikes.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 04, 2009, 12:46:20 PM
'96 M900, so a hoop-style rear.
Those seem to go about 1.0 lighter than the ST framed bikes.
Doh...
I missed that. :P
Speeddog is probably right.
I have the same bike and I run a 10.0 at 180 lbs.
You guys are awesome! [bow_down]
So ...
-- 1.0 for the front
-- 11.5 for the rear
Is there a specific brand or distributor or online store that you guys recommend?
Here are some more pictures of my fat butt for your enjoyment.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/dietrichpfeifer/Oct24-09-Ride/Oct24-09-Ride048.jpg)
I put in a brand new back insert that isn't quite broken in yet.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/dietrichpfeifer/Oct24-09-Ride/Oct24-09-Ride070.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/dietrichpfeifer/Oct24-09-Ride/Oct24-09-Ride081.jpg)
I have race-tech front and Ohlins rear
I weigh about 220# without gear. I recently put in .95 RaceTech springs and 5w oil in my fork on an '03 800 Monster Dark. The site did not list springs for my bike but I gave them dimensions and they got me springs that fit. For my weight and 'aggressive street' riding style it listed .95 for the m900, .90 for the m750 (the two closest bikes).
I went with .95 and after riding for a while it feels a little stiff to me, even with the sag set correctly. Looking back, the m900 weighs a bit more and the m750 is closer to the weight of my bike. I probably should have gotten the .90 springs, I may switch them at some point.
I would recommend RaceTech springs. From what I've read, RaceTech measures their spring rates before labelling. Some other manufacturers don't and people have gotten springs that are softer than labelled. I've also read that someone got springs from RaceTech, needed one more notch up or down on the spring rate after installation, and was given full credit when they returned the originals in good shape. YMMV.
It's a very personal thing but I'm tempted to tell you to consider .95. No matter what you do for the front it will be better. The stockers are really weak and the progressive nature doesn't help. For only $135 in springs and oil it's amazing the difference it made.
Can't help with the rear, haven't swapped that yet.
Scott
RaceTech has the springs.
Give me a call if you like, there are some other options. :)
I think I'll just get both front and back springs from RaceTech.
For the rear, though, do I just need to get a spring and adjust the preload and that's it -- I don't need to get or do anything else?
I mean, the front needs new fork oil and seals, along with the springs, but aside from having all the right tools, the back seems pretty straight forward.
Quote from: Michael on November 05, 2009, 07:01:09 AM
I think I'll just get both front and back springs from RaceTech.
For the rear, though, do I just need to get a spring and adjust the preload and that's it -- I don't need to get or do anything else?
I mean, the front needs new fork oil and seals, along with the springs, but aside from having all the right tools, the back seems pretty straight forward.
The back is easy. You don't even need a spring compressor on a 96.
You don't
need to change seals and oil in the front if there is no leaking. If you want to change oil weight that's fine, but if the seals aren't leaking leave them alone.
Thank you so much for the advice and help.
The left fork is leaking a little, so I figured it would be good to switch out the seals on both forks.
What weight oil do you recommend for the forks?
I live in Arizona where the temperature never gets near freezing (if that matters).
I think I have US 2 (racetech) in mine. My forks also have racetech gold valves
If you're not revalving that may be too heavy. The 96 Monster, and IMO, all non adjustable Monster forks are under sprung and over damped. Some folks use 5w oil which I believe is US 1 with stock valves.
Are you doing the work yourself?
Quote from: ducpainter on November 05, 2009, 05:28:00 PM
Are you doing the work yourself?
I want to.
With any luck I'll recruit the help of some ducati-savvy friends.
Just got off the phone with RaceTech.
I ordered the 11.6 kg rear spring.
SRSP S5818116 RT SHK SPR 58.2x178mm 11.6kg $109.99
I'm going to do the front later, but I need the rear right away.
The one odd thing is that the spring is blue instead of OEM yellow. I kind of liked the yellow, but hopefully blue will look cool, too.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: Michael on November 05, 2009, 05:58:59 PM
I want to.
With any luck I'll recruit the help of some ducati-savvy friends.
It's an easy job.
Quote from: Michael on November 16, 2009, 12:30:56 PM
The one odd thing is that the spring is blue instead of OEM yellow. I kind of liked the yellow, but hopefully blue will look cool, too.
[thumbsup]
nothing a little paint wont fix. Nick sprayed mine.
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6002/rearshock003ai7.jpg) (http://img384.imageshack.us/i/rearshock003ai7.jpg/) (http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/rearshock003ai7.jpg/1/w240.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img384/rearshock003ai7.jpg/1/)
Hmmm ... maybe ... just maybe ....
What kind of point would be best, something like high-temp paint that people use on calipers?
Quote from: Michael on November 18, 2009, 11:28:13 AM
Hmmm ... maybe ... just maybe ....
What kind of point would be best, something like high-temp paint that people use on calipers?
Not for a spring.
Use regular rattle can. It will dry quicker too.
You'll have to scuff up the existing coating for things to stick.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 18, 2009, 11:42:05 AM
Not for a spring.
Use regular rattle can. It will dry quicker too.
You'll have to scuff up the existing coating for things to stick.
+1.
That's what I did on Privateer's spring, as well as my own and a few others.
Quote from: Michael on November 04, 2009, 01:24:15 PM
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/dietrichpfeifer/Oct24-09-Ride/Oct24-09-Ride070.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/dietrichpfeifer/Oct24-09-Ride/Oct24-09-Ride081.jpg)
[thread jack]
I-17 North outa PHX?
That's the gas station in Cordes Jct at 69 and I-17, isn't it?
I lived just down the road at Arcosanti for a year '05-'06.
[/thread jack]
Yes, you are exactly right, Cordes Jct off of I-17.
We were on our way back from Sedona after doing a route through Prescott and Jerome.
See these threads:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=30533.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=30533.0)
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=31205.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=31205.0)
UPDATE!
Brand new spring was delivered just minutes ago.
I'm not sure about the blue -- I don't really like it, but I'm not sure I want to paint it either. I'm imagining a yellow spring with blue scratches on it (from installation) that I'll regret.
???
If you want the paint to be more durable just rattle can it and when it's dry put it in a 200 degree oven for 30 minutes or so to cure the paint. Don't go any hotter, springs don't like extreme heat. Then get some neoprene hose. Cut it open length wise to slip over the spring so the compression clamps don't scratch it.
I was dubious about the durability of rattle can paint but I followed Ducapainter's advice and my front fender still looks great after a whole season. No oven cure on that, don't think the plastic fneder would hold up well :P
Scott
Seeing as your bike's red..... some red paint would be good, IMO. ;)
I've not had a spring off of an early model shock, but according to ducpainter, you don't need a spring compressor, so there's a pretty small chance of scratching it.
Red might be cool, too. It certainly looks good in this photo.
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6002/rearshock003ai7.jpg)
However, I was planning on getting a clutch plate to match the yellow spring. I thought that would look good.
I like red with just a few bits of yellow here and there, like a red Ferrari with the yellow logo.
Ya ... I think I'm going to head to Home Depot and buy some yellow paint.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: Speeddog on November 19, 2009, 03:14:06 PM
Seeing as your bike's red..... some red paint would be good, IMO. ;)
I've not had a spring off of an early model shock, but according to ducpainter, you don't need a spring compressor, so there's a pretty small chance of scratching it.
No compressor was needed for my '01.
Quote from: howie on November 19, 2009, 05:11:07 PM
No compressor was needed for my '01.
Only the ST based frames require a compressor.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 16, 2009, 12:58:28 PM
It's an easy job.
You were right -- I took the spring off last night, not only did I not need a spring compressor, but the job altogether wasn't very difficult.
I still have the task of putting it back together, but I'm waiting for the paint to dry on the new spring.
[thumbsup]
Put about a half inch of preload on the spring.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 20, 2009, 06:00:37 AM
Put about a half inch of preload on the spring.
I've also purchased some risers.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/acura1171/IMG_01501.jpg)
That's
not a picture of my motorcycle, but rather it's from this thread, http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25513.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25513.0)
I haven't installed those on my bike yet.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/acura1171/IMG_01411.jpg)
Now, when I was removing my spring last night, I noticed that I had very little extra room between the hoop and the swing arm. I mean, when I unscrewed the hoop (photo above), there was maybe an extra 1/2 inch. And I was thinking that I wouldn't be able to put these new risers on at all. However, the preload was to the max on my spring.
So, I think that with less preload, I'd be able to fit the new risers.
But now I'm not even sure I want to.
???
I recommend just changing one thing at a time.
I think that you'll find that the new spring is a pretty dramatic change all by itself.
+1.
Ah ... you guys are probably right.
Well, I'm done painting the new spring. It's nice and yellow. Luckily in Arizona it's 70 degrees outside and sunny, so drying was fast. The spring is currently in the oven at 200 degrees.
I'm taking lots of pictures and I might even put together a video for the Tutorial forum when I'm done.
Nice way to give back to the board :)
Quote from: Michael on November 20, 2009, 10:10:03 AM
Ah ... you guys are probably right.
Well, I'm done painting the new spring. It's nice and yellow. Luckily in Arizona it's 70 degrees outside and sunny, so drying was fast. The spring is currently in the oven at 200 degrees.
I'm taking lots of pictures and I might even put together a video for the Tutorial forum when I'm done.
I love the oven cure method, the misses, not so much.
Quote from: Michael on November 20, 2009, 10:10:03 AM
Ah ... you guys are probably right.
Well, I'm done painting the new spring. It's nice and yellow. Luckily in Arizona it's 70 degrees outside and sunny, so drying was fast. The spring is currently in the oven at 200 degrees.
I'm taking lots of pictures and I might even put together a video for the Tutorial forum when I'm done.
What kind of paint did you use to paint your spring?
Okay.
If you guys don't mind, I'd like to ask you some advice. I've created a video -- this is just a first take that I made, I gave no thought to what I would say or how I placed the camera.
So I'm going to re-do it (during the day, with better light) and then I'll post the final version to the Tutorial area it's own thread, but my question is ... do you have any suggestions to make this video better?
I mean, is there anything else I should say, or anything I should say differently?
Motorcycle Rear Spring Replacement - Ducati M900 (Monster) 1996 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yl1ISvqtpE#normal)
I've had the shock out of my bike three times so far. I left the wheel on and hoop connected. I also removed the foot peg bracket and removed it and the exhaust, allowing easy access ti the bottom shock bolt. Disconnecting the hoop, though not necessary, is a good idea though, since you can now lube the usually neglected Heim joints. The bent washer is supposed to be attached to the swing arm to hold the nut in place.
Thank you for commenting. That's interesting.
I assumed that disconnecting the exhaust header would break a gasket seal.
I mean, it's usually that way in cars.
My bad, just the muffler. The header stays in place. The muffler comes off with the foot peg bracket.
Quote from: djrashonal on November 22, 2009, 05:15:10 PM
What kind of paint did you use to paint your spring?
Rust-Oleum, I just went into Home Depot and grabbed whatever they had.
what is the benefit of putting it in the oven? drys it faster?
Cures to a slightly harder, tougher final finish. Makes it a little more durable.
Scott
awesome, thanks for the info! any particular temp/length of time to cook it at?
200 is fine, maybe 20-30 minutes. You want to be super careful not to go too hot on springs, you can ruin them.
Also, the paint may be super soft when it's hot so let it cool completely in the oven or have a nice little handle to grab it by. If you grab the whole part with an oven mitt you may ruin the finish where you touch it.
Scott
+1
You need to let it cool. I wouldn't even try to touch it or move it.
After 20 minutes, just turn off the oven, open the oven door, and let it sit for an hour.
Quote from: djrashonal on November 23, 2009, 08:37:19 AM
awesome, thanks for the info! any particular temp/length of time to cook it at?
In the paint industry a 'standard' of 140
0F won't hurt the paint or substrate.
Time varies by material, but 30-60 mins at full temp usually works.
The part will need a while to reach temp.
but if i put it in the oven, wont there be contact points on the baking sheet? will those spots be less cured or distorted or burn to the baking sheet?
Quote from: djrashonal on November 23, 2009, 01:22:15 PM
but if i put it in the oven, wont there be contact points on the baking sheet? will those spots be less cured or distorted or burn to the baking sheet?
yes...
DIY isn't easy. ;)
Figure a way to hang it with no contact anywhere that shows.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 23, 2009, 01:24:10 PM
yes...
DIY isn't easy. ;)
Figure a way to hang it with no contact anywhere that shows.
i figured that was the case, didnt know if there was a trick or somethin
Quote from: djrashonal on November 23, 2009, 01:25:45 PM
i figured that was the case, didnt know if there was a trick or somethin
smoke and mirrors...
If you can't hang it you can prop it up on some tiny metal nails or something. Minimizes contact.
Wow DP, I didn't realize 140F was all you needed. I don't think my oven even goes that low.
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on November 23, 2009, 01:44:13 PM
If you can't hang it you can prop it up on some tiny metal nails or something. Minimizes contact.
Wow DP, I didn't realize 140F was all you needed. I don't think my oven even goes that low.
Scott
Keep in mind if you're painting cars there are plastics involved when you cook a job.
You can't heat things to a point where the plastic sags in the interior.
That's why I added 'varies' by material.
Auto paints are designed to fully cure with a bake of 140 for 30-60 minutes.
Rattle cans were never designed to be baked, and if you get them too hot too soon they'll wrinkle.
It truly isn't simple.
ya, and on mine, I don't think it really made a difference.
If I were to start over and do this again, I probably would just skip the spring-in-the-oven step.
And when I did mine, I set a dry spring on a piece of foil on a cookie sheet and placed that in the oven. Some paint came off onto the foil, so ... there's that. But luckily no one will see it once the spring is installed.
Any more comments on the video?
[popcorn]
Quote from: Michael on November 23, 2009, 03:11:21 PM
Any more comments on the video?
[popcorn]
Yup...
post it in the tutorial section already... ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on November 23, 2009, 03:15:59 PM
Yup...
post it in the tutorial section already... ;D
Thanks. :)
I'm going to re-do and make a much nicer version, though.
I'm going to have a script, and actors, and a love story. It's going to be great.
Quote from: Michael on November 23, 2009, 03:52:21 PM
Thanks. :)
I'm going to re-do and make a much nicer version, though.
I'm going to have a script, and actors, and a love story. It's going to be great.
Who's gonna play you? [evil]
Quote from: ducpainter on November 23, 2009, 03:55:33 PM
Who's gonna play you? [evil]
Angelina Jolie.
(http://www.lanoti.com/lanoti/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/angelina-jolie-4-6-751.jpg)
Quote from: Michael on November 23, 2009, 04:36:41 PM
Angelina Jolie.
(http://www.lanoti.com/lanoti/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/angelina-jolie-4-6-751.jpg)
You have a very strange picture of a 'lovable fat man'....
Quote from: ducpainter on November 23, 2009, 04:43:45 PM
You have a very strange picture of a 'lovable fat man'....
Hey, if you can't love a face like that, I don't know what to tell you. [coffee]
So in my quest to redo my video, I've decided to take Howie's advice and see if I can't remove the spring with the tire on. As it turns out, he's right -- you don't have to remove the tire at all. I also didn't need to remove the exhaust pipe.
So, I'm re-doing the video to show the much easier way.
Changing the rear spring is really a lot easier than I thought ... or at least it would be if I hadn't done it the wrong way first and if I wasn't making a video about it.
[thumbsup]
How to Replace Rear Spring on a Ducati M900 Motorcycle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrgYos29ZXs#normal)
So I ordered the front springs:
FRSP S3534100 RT FRK SPR 34.7x340mm 1.0kg $109.99
Inner Fork Bushings (pair) FMBI 41201 P $24.99
Outer Fork Bushings (pair) FMBO 41202 P $21.98
Fork Seals (pair) FSOS 41 P $21.98
Dust Seals (pair) FSDS 41 P $19.98
They'll be here next week.
[coffee]
Quote from: Michael on December 22, 2009, 11:36:13 AM
So I ordered the front springs:
FRSP S3534100 RT FRK SPR 34.7x340mm 1.0kg $109.99
Inner Fork Bushings (pair) FMBI 41201 P $24.99
Outer Fork Bushings (pair) FMBO 41202 P $21.98
Fork Seals (pair) FSOS 41 P $21.98
Dust Seals (pair) FSDS 41 P $19.98
They'll be here next week.
[coffee]
No valves?
Quote from: ducpainter on December 22, 2009, 01:23:57 PM
No valves?
Do I need valves?
It's a non-adjustable fork. I don't know if that matters. Other than doing my rear spring, I have no experience with motorcycle suspension.
Quote from: Michael on December 23, 2009, 10:26:17 AM
Do I need valves?
It's a non-adjustable fork. I don't know if that matters. Other than doing my rear spring, I have no experience with motorcycle suspension.
Race Tech makes a replacement valve for that fork.
The damping stack that they recommend is more for the track or smooth roads. It's pretty stiff.
I have the same bike as you with the gold valves in the front and it transforms the bike. The shim stack is not the one race tech recommends.
Contact eric at clubhouse motorsports and he can do the same for you.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18933.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18933.0)
Quote from: ducpainter on December 23, 2009, 10:36:09 AM
Race Tech makes a replacement valve for that fork.
The damping stack that they recommend is more for the track or smooth roads. It's pretty stiff.
I have the same bike as you with the gold valves in the front and it transforms the bike. The shim stack is not the one race tech recommends.
Contact eric at clubhouse motorsports and he can do the same for you.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18933.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18933.0)
I read the thread, but I don't understand -- do you have modified forks?
Do you have a picture of the gold valves?
Quote from: Michael on December 23, 2009, 01:50:33 PM
I read the thread, but I don't understand -- do you have modified forks?
Do you have a picture of the gold valves?
Yes my forks have been re-sprung and re-valved.
(http://new.racetech.com/images/SMGV4000_220.jpg)
That valve is not necessarily the one for your forks, but is similar.
That's cool looking.
Well, I just ordered
- new springs (heavier ones because I weigh more)
- new bushings (I have a small leak on one side)
- new seals
- new dust seals
So, I didn't order a dampening stack or valves or anything else (except seal grease and a cover to protect the seals from the sharp fork).
My question is, is it okay if I just replace those things? I feel a little intimidated by too many changes, I just got used to the idea of changing the forks and seals myself.
:)
Probably don't *need* the bushings, but might as well since you'll have 'em off and open.
Might want to consider ordering a seal driver as well, but likely cheaper to just get a local shop to push 'em in.
The Race Tech valves have larger holes than the stock valves. The valve controls high speed damping. The shim stack is for low speed damping and further restricts flow. The magic is getting the shim stack right. Eric did my forks too. Reason why? He did all the trial and error on other bikes and has it all written down in his notebook. Eric transformed my suspension and that is one of the reasons I kept the bike this long. I would look for an equivalent guru near you, or maybe even mail them to Eric. In New York we are lucky enough to have the good folks at European Cycle Services.
The springs showed up today!
[clap]
Quote from: ducpainter on December 23, 2009, 10:36:09 AM
I have the same bike as you ....
Do you have Showa forks or Marzocchi forks?
My VIN is lower than 009914 and I have Showa forks. I don't know if there is a feature available in one and not the other. So far the only difference I can see is that the Showa has a much greater oil capacity.
It's odd because the service manual says that Ducati recommends adding 30cc of fluid more than the original 457 cc to help improve performance. And it doesn't give a modified oil level measurement, instead it only lists the original. I mean, the way it's written, I should fill the fork with 457 cc of fluid, make sure the measurement level is exactly 79.5mm, and then dump in 30cc more.
The oil is odd, too. Instead of SAE 7.5 fork oil, for Showa it says use ATF SAE 10w20.
I'm glad I got the book.
Mine has Showas.
I've never seen an early bike with the Marzocchis.
I use different numbers because I have a different valve.
ATF is hydraulic oil. I would use the 7.5 weight with stock valves.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 30, 2009, 02:40:03 AM
Mine has Showas.
I've never seen an early bike with the Marzocchis.
I use different numbers because I have a different valve.
ATF is hydraulic oil. I would use the 7.5 weight with stock valves.
Thanks DucPainter. I'm glad guys like you are around.
So, 7.5 weight with stock valves? What about the weight issue -- I mean,
my weight issue -- I'm a bit heavier than the average rider, so would a heavier/thicker oil be necessary? Or does that concern only apply to springs?
Quote from: Michael on December 30, 2009, 07:05:38 AM
Thanks DucPainter. I'm glad guys like you are around.
So, 7.5 weight with stock valves? What about the weight issue -- I mean, my weight issue -- I'm a bit heavier than the average rider, so would a heavier/thicker oil be necessary? Or does that concern only apply to springs?
Exactly...
The spring supports your weight.
The compression damping slows the spring as it compresses to avoid bottoming and the rebound slows the spring as it uncoils to avoid the pogo stick effect.
Since the stock valve has very small holes thick oil gives too harsh a ride over things like manholes or expansion joints on bridges.
Damping and spring weight are related. A change in springs normally requires something be done with damping because you're trying to control the spring. Since the stock damping so is stiff I'd try lightening the oil. It will make the front more supple.
There is some trial and error.
The experts just have enough of a data base from all their experimenting to know what scenario works best in a given situation.