Ducati Monster Forum

It seems that the smaller manufacturers, in my opinion, are less interested in coaxing more power of the motors in existing displacement categories. I am not really all that impressed with simply raising the displacement to get more power. At some point you end up with a 1300/1400cc kawibusa in the name of power. Follow with me for a second:

Ducati jumps in with both feet into SBK market:

Ducati 851.

Ducati 888. (926 big bore available I'm aware)

Ducati 916.

Somewhere in here is the 955.

--> Ducati 996: Ducati 998
----> Ducati 748 (Midweight. Kit to bump displacement to 853cc. Compare with Ducati 851 superbike which was not the 'midweight' but was the top dog).

Ducati 999 and 749

Enter the 1098 and 848 (Compare displacement 848 "middleweight" and 851/888 "big" bikes of yesteryear)


Enter 1198


To me it seems like the middle weight class disappeared when the 748 bike entered the market frequently kitted to 853cc. That's no middle weight, by Ducati's own standards (where the 851 wasn't a middle weight, it was the big one). I just see a large gap in the production categories that was or is best answered by something like the Mito 500. It would be nice to have a little bit more choice in the faired "superbikes", especially ones which fit into some sort of pre-existing class.

It probably has something to do with reliability and cost, increasing the power output of a lower displacement motor to compete with larger competition seems like it would have its downfalls in both performance reliability and marketing for the bikes themselves.  That coupled with the difficult time that bike manufacturers are already having with moving bikes I doubt they're aiming to hit a niche market of riders who actually want to sacrifice displacement for weight and highly streetable power.

i follow you, but you overlook the importance of homologation requirements for supersport/stock/bike racing.

many of those displacement increases were a factor of not being able to wring enough (reliable) power out of the previous displacement.

the 1098/1198 is a prime example compared to the on-the-verge-of-grenading 999 superbike (in true race trim).

I'm more specifically looking at the

Ducati 851/888 compared with the 748->853 and the 848.

"Other" manufacturers are offering a 600, a 750 and a 1000. The 848 goes ... where?

I'd like one of the eye-tallion manufacturers to produce and market something that nicely fits in the niche that Mito 500 or so would be. You've got 250 aprilias, and then essentially it goes to litre bikes. The 848 is far closer to a litre bike than a 600, let alone a 500.

Why? I'd say the 848 is a direct competitor to the Japanese 600s, and the Triumph 675. A litre bike would stomp them.

Unless you're talking price?

Price and power. The Duc "750's" were, seems to me, a more logical competitor to the 600's. the 848 is 250cc's larger in displacement. That's like 40%

what are these other manufacturers you speak of?

yamaha built an expensive, homologation-only r7 and abandoned it when superbike went to 1000cc.

honda's 750cc superbike was also an expensive, homologation-only model. they did have a project to design a "consumer" 750cc bike, but that ended up becoming the 900rr and the 750cc model was never built.

kawasaki only kept the zx7 in the lineup until superbike went to 1000cc.

suzuki is the only manufacturer that has consistently built and developed a 750cc platform.



the problem with developing bikes like that, at least for the american market, is that they cost just as much as big bikes and that diminishes the market for them.

i'd love to own a modern light/midweight single or twin, but common sense gets in the way when people start talking prices.

Price I can see...but Ducs always cost more than their Japanese equivalents.

848 power is closer to the 600s than the 1000s. Displacement isn't all that important, given the differences between an in-line 4 and a V-twin.

Your logic would make sense if you were comparing two inline 4's.  But you are talking apples and oranges.

The 848 makes about 116 hp at the wheel.  The 600's make about 110 or so.  A liter bike makes about 150+.

So the 848 and 600's are within 10 hp to each other.  A liter bike has an easy 35 hp on either one.

No no no, my beef is with the 848 not cranking out sufficient power for its displacement (at a reported 130ish). The 888 (851cc) was making the same power... in 1994 (Strada: 110). The 851 was making almost (Strada: 102) this is 1989. Those are "ancient" motorcycles by today's superbike standards.

Here's what I'm trying to say, the manufacturer in this case Ducati, desires to raise the power of the middle weight motorcycle. Instead of doing that, they've essentially just subbed in the motor from the older heavy weight bike (disclaimer: obviously the 848 engine is new, and superior to the 851/888 motor). Displacement-wise, I'm speaking.

I referenced "Bikez" for the power, and if those are actually being too favorable, fair enough. I also recall that there may have been a change in which hp figure was reported (at the wheel or engine bhp)

My underlying question is "Where did the middleweights/lightweights go?"

According to this link for the 1994 888 it made 110 hp.  That'd be at the crank.  So with drivetrain loss (some say 15%) that'd be 93.5 hp.

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/ducati_888_sp_0_strada_1994.php (http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/ducati_888_sp_0_strada_1994.php)

The 848 makes 134 hp at the crank....minus the same 15% and that's 114 hp.

This link to the Ducati 996 shows it only made 106.8 hp.  

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_22.html (http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_22.html)


So the 848 makes more power than the 996.....with less displacement.  So the motors are getting more efficient.  Not less....



Your numbers are off......

As the top of the heap moved up....750's to 1000's for inlines and from 1000 to 1198 for the twins.  The middle weight moved up too.  The middle weight is the GSXR 750.  And the lightweight is the 600.

How do we know that one was at the Crank? Haven't they changed what was reported? I recall there was a change in the advertising at some point, similar to the change in weights reported from wet to dry, etc.


I've got the 996 listed at around 112-116. There sees to be lots of discrepancy across the board. I'll have to grab the ol' Falloon book and see what it says. 

Or, go here:

http://www.bikeboy.org/performance.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/performance.html)

Added benefit is they're all on the same dyno, AFAIK, and Brad knows how to write about 'em.  [beer]

No 848, but I think all the rest of your list is there.
I was looking around a while back, and stock 848's seem to go about 117-119HP at the rear wheel.

I guess my thoughts are, if you are looking at the 848, why not go up to the 1098/1198? Sure its more power, but the 848 isn't a really lacking the same (not wheezy like the 748 was accused of being), so you might as well go balls-to-the-wall if you are going to buy a Ducati. The argument against this would be $$$, its not down on power or displacement enough to be a "superbike in moderation". Until the Dark Model just debuted, which makes more sense to me than many of the other current offerings, I just didn't really see the point. "848" isn't all that far from the big leaguers, and the price isn't all that far off.

I suppose on the other hand, The money you save when buying an 848 over a 1098 could be reinvested in suspension upgrades, etc, which you might want to do anyhow on the 1098. Kind of like making your own "S" model.

oddly enough, the 848 is attractive to me precisely because it's "enough..."

i love excessive power, but the "smaller" bike is more floggable.

(fwiw, i chose a gsxr750 over the 1k, too)

IMO, anything much over 100HP at the rear wheel is overkill for the street.
My S4 nudged 103 or so, and it can make things happen plenty quick enough.
YMMV.

I don't plan on leaving superbikes at casa 'memphis street legal. I don't really find comfort at stoplights on a superbike, for me its a track toy.

I guess I feel a pretty large hole is in the Ducati lineup. It seems to me that it used to be filled by the supersport - faired and lower power. (plus: stupid easy to work on, like the Monster).

well now you're talking about issues bigger than just displacement.

I guess its partly the similarity in numbers between the 848/851/888 that gets me, and the hole that bikes like the 748 used to fill.

Guess I'll make my own.  
(http://goodvibeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/emoticon-angry.jpg)

Trackbike.

Oh.

Time to re-read thread from that perspective.

I bought the 848 over the 1098 because it was all the power I wanted...and it was cheaper. The 1098 also has a lot more torque than the 848...hp isn't everything.

If I had to do it again, I'd still buy the 848 over the 1198. Maybe I'm weird.  ???

Even then after owning it for a while I thought the 848 had too much power for the street.  It wasn't a control issue or anything, it just wasn't fun to ride on the street. Neglecting the comfort (or lack thereof) issue, I rarely got it out of 3rd for fear of getting a ticket...and any fun amount of acceleration had you well past the speed limit in a hurry. Twisties were fun...but unless they were high speed twisties (see previous problem) my MTS was more fun. I have no idea why someone would buy an 1198 (or any litre bike) for the street.  ???

In the end I only liked the 848 on the track, but it was also too expensive for me to be a track-bike...so I sold it and got a 748. Obviously not the fastest track bike...but fast enough for me.  [thumbsup]

That's what I like about the 748 and even the 749, still lots of power, but in a bit more affordable (especially now) package.

The 848 Dark, though, does raise my eyebrows.

Just makes me wish there was a competitive offering from Ducati at a bit lower price point and a bit lower 'engine'. I suppose I've inhaled too many exhaust fumes, but that is what I'm wanting in a "new" (maybe air-cooled) superbike/supersport.

but the 748 and 749 were 13-14k new in their day.

[thumbsup]


i'll be surprised if ducati goes back down that road. iirc, they had lots of issues selling their old stock of ss1000 a few years back.

if you're really aching, there's always the millona:

http://www.ncrfactory.com/eng/html/18.00.shtml (http://www.ncrfactory.com/eng/html/18.00.shtml)

then again, those make an 848 (or even an 1198) seem downright affordable.

I did almost the same thing. Sold a finicky 999 that basically wasn't happy with anything under 50 mph and only loved life over 70 mph.

Sold it for an '08 GSXR 750 ---- wonderful bike but I missed the v twin. 

Ended up with an 848 that I love dearly. Yeah, I miss the big torque rush but only occasionally. I have way more fun on the streets than I ever did with the 999. But, if I could have both I would.

I've ridden a 1098 for about a mile.
Same for a handful of 996's, 998's.
I've ridden an 848 a little, maybe 150 miles total, but not been able to sample the 'legs' 'cause it's still in break-in.
For an SBK, it feels like most realistic street machine of the bunch.

I've ridden 900SS's, M1k's, S2R1k's.
Haven't ridden a 1kSS, but from the above, I've got a pretty good idea of what it'd be like.
Not as comfortable a riding position as the 848, but a good bit less heat on the legs.
I'm sure they're a ball when ridden hard.
Just not many people want 'em.

Screw the break in, ride the piss out of it...

Couple of things...

THe 851 made about 92 at the wheels, the 888 about 96 stock. So the 851 was raced as a 904 and a 926, and then the 888 was raced as a 944 and then a 984. The 1993 AMA superbike (most of 93-94 was 955) made about 138 at the tire. The 984 engine made WAY to much power for the cases and it came apart often. At this time a superbike was based around a 750, and this was a HUGE advantage, but really only in torque, which is drive. so the Duc woudl motor away off the corners, and get sucked up at the straights (look to brainerd, RA, Daytona of those years)

Then with the new engine, came the ability to make a big engine, and the 996 was around. Early 94 was still 955, 996 was illegal, so it was never used in competition (when there was a risk of a tear down) the new heads and bigger cases made huge advances, which were then quickly surpassed by power output, and we went right back to deforming the engine cases, which, as you can imagine, cut engine life quite a bit. Chilli's WSB Laguna Seca Winning bike made 184 at the tire with our race gas here in the US, which was a BUNCH better than the spec fuel could do.

With the Narrow Head engine came a series of its own problems, but HP output never really jumped by such huge gains. Where a GSXR1000 could easily make 210hp, and do so for an entire season, the 999 engine never really could scratch the 200 mark, and it suffered from being over revved to try to make it up. The only answer is displacement.

so the 1100 and 1200 come along, to compete with a bunch of 1000CC superbikes that can make 230plus hp in a hearbeat. Understand that a production bike, with a full system, and some simple mods and a remap will make 185plus hp, and I have seen a gsxr1000 at 192rwhp with no mods other than whats above, the head was never off the bike. An 1198 with a full system and an ECU makes about 171-173rwhp, so thats a lot closer than they have ever been before...

The 4 cyl bikes make a lot more torque, but are much harder on the tire, overwhelming the drive and turning it to spin, so they come out of the corner about the same.


I do disagree with one thing... I think 170hp is just about right on the street. after riding a 600 and 848 , etc, I think there really isnt a point o ride a smaller dispalcement bik eon the street when a liter bike is availible. The big bike is as light, much faster, and much much easier to ride.  You dont have to go fast in the corners, as you can make it up on the straights, and most of the time, if you are going to crash, its in the corners.

Will

Not my bike.

...and if it was?  [evil]

Here's a chart comparing a 996 with an 848 same day, same dyno.  The 996 has slip ons the 848 was fairly new and stock

(http://ducatiseattle.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Ducati-Seattle-Dyno-Charts/848996/244150767_K82xj-O.jpg)

Big difference in torque, and I'd like to do a back to back ride to see if you could feel the substantial looking change in how early the power comes on with the 996.

I haven't ridden an 848, but I can say the power on a 996 doesn't 'come on'.

It's just there all the time.

It makes it easy to ride.

That's kinda what I meant, the 848's graph doesn't show that kind of immediate oomph

The 848 definitely has a power spike at 8K rpms. It is very noticeable.

Big difference in torque and HP, esp. in the midrange.  I don't know that it makes the 996 exactly easier to ride unless you are saying you have to work the 848 that much harder to keep up with a 996. True that, to a degree. Easier to go faster with a 996, yup. Is the 996 a totally better balanced package? Personally, I really can't say, but I'd love to find out. I don't have any seat time in one of those, yet. I can say that even after lots of tweaking it was still overall harder to ride the 999 than the 848. The 999 loved to go fast but it demanded a lot more attention and was less forgiving, if you know what I mean.

What I was saying is because of the ample power everywhere you can just ride the 996 without paying much attention to rpms. If the thing is running it's making power.

If you exit a corner a gear too high just open the throttle more.

Got that 100% the first time.  [thumbsup]  For the most part therein lies the attraction of the big bores. As much as I love the 848 I also love the big bikes. Had saddle time on a 1098 & 1198 and owned that 999 for almost 2 years. Just saying that the big guys can be a bit of a handful to ride at times.  [moto]  (Another semi-perverse attraction  ;D)

i'm quoting this out of context just for fun.

Big +1
I've ridden 848's, and that's what's missing - the big grunt you get out of the 996.