Hey all, I did a 12K service for the 1st time. I bought everything from Desmo times minus a couple of things from the dealer. I have LT's manual as well as the Dealer service manual, VDST and a gastester. I adjusted the valves (all the closers are between .03 and .05, all the openers are at .10), put in new plugs, cleaned air filter, new fuel filter (from Napa # 3032), put on new belts, checked the trim and checked and adjusted the TPS. I adjusted the vacuum on the intakes, I checked the throttle bodies with the air bleeder screws all the way in, they were fine. Everything looks fine.
The last time it was serviced they replaced the valve guides. It ran a but rough before that and ran OK afterwords but was running very rough by the time the service came around. I'm not confident in the tech who did the work last time on the bike. I am probably going to pull the heads later today and bring them down to the dealer tomorrow to look at.
It is not bad at idle but when riding, the engine is not smooth at all like it has been in the past. I have rechecked everything more that twice. Not really sure where to go from here but deeper into the engine. [bang] [bang] [bang]
Any thoughts? ???
you could of missed a timing tooth. that can cause the bike to run really rough and uneven.
i wouldnt pull the heads off. too much work for a little problem, especially since you havent investigated it further. if the guides were replaced, then im not sure they would of worn so quickly. You can double check by wiggling the valve. there shouldnt be that much free play (im not sure what the tolerances are, it should be in your manual)
Which bike/engine?
What year?
Quote from: He Man on November 16, 2009, 09:44:11 AM
you could of missed a timing tooth. that can cause the bike to run really rough and uneven.
i wouldnt pull the heads off. too much work for a little problem, especially since you havent investigated it further. if the guides were replaced, then im not sure they would of worn so quickly. You can double check by wiggling the valve. there shouldnt be that much free play (im not sure what the tolerances are, it should be in your manual)
I double and triple checked the belts, but will do it again. I am just frustrated, I have gone over everything I have done and all is where it is supposed to be. I figured on pulling the heads to see if a valve was screwed up or something, I do think the guides are fine as their brand new.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 16, 2009, 09:45:13 AM
Which bike/engine?
What year?
Sorry, It's an 05 Monster 620 with 38K's on it. It has Termis with an open airbox and DP ECU.
Check to be sure fuel lines aren't kinked.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 16, 2009, 10:21:57 AM
Check to be sure fuel lines aren't kinked.
Ill check, how about the napa filter? Should I just get the oem ducati filter?
Fuel lines look fine. Here are some pics of the cams and main drive they all line up. Here's a pic from the top of the throttle body. Question about the injectors, specifically the right one. Should it be turned all the way to the side like that? Is there a specific way they need to sit?
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/IMG_0171.jpg)
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/IMG_0172.jpg)
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/IMG_0173.jpg)
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/IMG_0174.jpg)
How did you adjust the throttle bodies? What kind of gauge did you balance them with and at what RPM? I usualy close (or evenly crack open) the air bleeds and adjust the balance of the linkage at midrange RPM, then fine tune the balance at idle with the air bleeds. Also, the TPS adjustment is very touchy.
Quote from: Dietrich on November 16, 2009, 12:04:02 PM
How did you adjust the throttle bodies? What kind of gauge did you balance them with and at what RPM? I usualy close (or evenly crack open) the air bleeds and adjust the balance of the linkage at midrange RPM, then fine tune the balance at idle with the air bleeds. Also, the TPS adjustment is very touchy.
I am in the middle of adjusting them now. I tried to adjust the vacuum through the air bleeds before but that didn't do me any good. I'm using a fuel pump and vacuum gauge tester. I am adjusting the throttle bodies at idle cause it's gonna piss off my neighbors if I hold the throttle open at 5K rpm. Can I sync them while the bike is at idle?
Thankfully the TPS is a mouse-click with the VDST software.
Here's a pic of the gauge. Should I get something different?
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/IMG_0177.jpg)
I don't know when the TPS changed, but the older ones you have to adjust by measuring the voltage, the later ones you can simply reset with the VDST software (that's what I do also). TO balance the throttle bodies you really need to se the vacuum of both of them at the same time using hoses hooked up to the ports on the base of the throttle bodies, where the charcoal canister used to be plumbed to. You can use just about any vacuum gauge that is able to pick up the difference, old murcury tubes, etc, but you need to be able to see both cylinders at the same time, or the difference between the two (search for making your own manometer). I use a tool the BMW guys like called Twinmax. I like to have them balanced at the RPMs I will be running the bike at and could care less how it runs at idle. You fine tune with the air bleeds for balance at idle and idle speed, but more accurately you would be measuring the exhaust gasses and adjusting the air bleeds for that. You'll know when it's right though by how it's running and how much/color of the soot in the tailpipe. I've adjusted bikes that could not pass the emissions smog test here and with a simple balance/air bleed adjustment they passed with flying colors.
Thanks for the advice, that Twinmax looks pretty cool.Looks I may piss off some neighbors tomorrow!!
OK so I made my own manometer like this one.
(http://www.powerchutes.com/graphics/martycarbsync.jpg)
I have to say it did the job pretty good. I synced the throttle bodies @ 5K and it's pretty smooth up there. It gets a little choppy above that and I still have some work to do at idle but pretty happy with the result.
It's not perfect (It will be) but it's a good start to getting this bike as smooth as it can be.
Thanks for the help guys!!! [thumbsup]
The TPS for your bike should be set so the output measures 150mV with TB butterflies shut, (TB stop screw backed out) then Idle is set to ~434mV using TB stop screw.
VDST reset I think is for linear TPS, we have non-linear.
05 M620 17Kmi
Quote from: seevtsaab on November 18, 2009, 06:46:08 AM
The TPS for your bike should be set so the output measures 150mV with TB butterflies shut, (TB stop screw backed out) then Idle is set to ~434mV using TB stop screw.
VDST reset I think is for linear TPS, we have non-linear.
05 M620 17Kmi
Shite!! I just confirmed with my local dealer, you are correct, non-linear. I'll have to go back and check it all again.
Thanks seevtsaab
The first time i did a valve adjust I had the same problem.. You know what the problem was..I adjusted the closers too loose.
People are probably going to give me a hard time about this but I'll say it anyway and its probably not what you want to hear but here goes:
All this tps adjustment and throttle body syncing is going to get you no where. The fact is that tps and throttle bodies dont go way out of sync in 12k miles.
Setting closers to zero is done by feel not measurement. Of course a rough estimate of closer size is required so you can go buy a new one but thats about it.
See my post on how to measure by feel. Its anal and tedious but it works.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=28921.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=28921.0)
EEL thanks for the post. I may try to get the closers a bit tighter next time but they are well within spec for now.
I tried to set the throttle bodies with a homemade manometer which did yield some good results but not good enough. Personally I think my dealer has never really tuned the bike how it should be. I think they have cut a lot of corners (including not hooking the bike up to the DDS) so they can make a better profit in a crappy economy. My bike was running so bad before I did the service I wasn't sure if I should be doing the service myself.
Turns out I did a better job than the dealer (not supprised).
I have had the swine flu for a week but am finally starting to come out of it. I just set the TPS to 150Mv/434Mv tonight. The TPS was around 190Mv while the TB stop screw was around 385Mv and that was after I adjusted it with the manometer.
Anyway Ill finish tuning it tomorrow and this should be FINALLY done resulting in a bike that runs like it should. I'm lookin forward to getting rid of the swiney and gettin back on the bike. :)
TPS all the way. Mine was completely out of whack at 16,000 miles. Here's a link to what I did.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=31155.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=31155.0)
Good luck!
<I do not have VDST, so I only went by mV on the TPS.>
Good luck kicking the grunge ....
going back to EEL's post, TPS & bleed screws (I backed mine about 1/4 to 1/2 turn iirc) will only effect idle
so if you have issues higher in the range it's elsewhere (bleed screws may play a very minor role off idle).
I developed a 'rhythm' for getting closers on & off - tedious for sure but pretty satisfying.
Closing shims off, my little song
(Clip off)
(opener rocker - move)
(opener shim - off)
forceps - on valve stem
closer rocker - down, secure with 8-10mm allen (EEEEEEEEEXCELENT TIP)
collets - out
Allen - out
closer shim - out
(sand sand sand sand)
Closing shim -on
Allen - in
Collets - on
Allen - out
Forceps - off
With a little pressing on the closer rocker and spinning the cam at various points
seevtsaab, good tips above. When adjusting the valves I did all those steps accept for the allen key trick. Good one, next time.
You're right about the TPS and bleed screws, I thought the TB sync screw was messing something up but now I know the MV's on the TPS were off. I just want to get everything set as it should be. Here's more of the story below.
So last night while I was setting the Mv I noticed that I don't have a LH throttle stop screw, so I sent an email to Brad Black. It is below with his answer on top.
I haven't had a chance to complete the tune up due to a failing battery, it's the original so it needed replacing anyway.
Basically, set the TPS to 150Mv, set the RH throttle screw to 2.7 degrees (which sets the TB sync screw the same basically), then adjust the bleeders to get the RPM and do the trim if need be. I got to the setting of the RH throttle screw @ 2.7 degrees then the battery wouldn't let me start the bike. I have one on order for pick up tomorrow.
The saga continues...hopefully it will end tomorrow. Then I have new front pads to install, bleed the front brakes (did the rear and clutch already), then new sprockets and a new chain.
Eaton
I always go by the degrees, not mV. Possibly not the way it should be, but it's just a convention.
Regards
Brad Black
Brad The Bike Boy
2B King St
Oakleigh, VIC, 3166
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----- Original Message -----
From: Eaton Reid
To: brad@bikeboy.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:30 PM
Subject: TPS Tuning Question - Saw you on Ducati Monster Forum
Hi Brad!
Great write up on the 2V Non Linear TPS Baseline adjustment! Great info. I have a 2005 Monster 620 w/Bing TB's and it doesn't have a left hand throttle stop screw. It only has a balance or synchronization adjustment screw. I adjusted the TPS to 150 Mv, then screwed in the synchronization adjustment screw to 434Mv. Then I screwed in the RH throttle adjustor screw and it was at 3.1 degrees when it made contact.
Here's the question, what is more important the degrees @ 2.7 or the 434Mv.
Is it better to readjust the balance or synchronization adjustment screw then set the RH throttle body to 2.7 degrees and throw the 434 Mv out the window? Thinking about it more and more this sounds like the correct path. That way the TB's are in sync with the correct baseline, the throttle is at 2.7 degrees and I can go ahead and adjust the idle with the bleeders and then the trim.
Did I just answer my own question?
this thread may be of interest to you
http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9263 (http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9263)
Quote from: jim_0068 on November 24, 2009, 07:34:54 PM
this thread may be of interest to you
http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9263 (http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9263)
Great thread, thanks. That's exactly where I'm headed, but it's great to see the plan you have in your head written down by someone else. [thumbsup]
do you have to take off the airbox to get to the air bleed screws?
Quote from: brix821 on November 25, 2009, 05:19:50 AM
do you have to take off the airbox to get to the air bleed screws?
No. The air bleeds are accessable on each side of the bike without removing the airbox. They look like little set-screws in the side of the throttle bodies. I used them only to set idle speed.
So after all this I finally took the heads off just to make sure I didn't screw up the valves or pistons somehow while adjusting them. I just couldn't get it to run right. I brought the heads to the shop where my dealer took them to get the valve guides replaced 6K ago. The exhaust guides are way out.
Horizontal .178 mm
Vertical .381mm
To top it off my tps is all screwed up as well. I checked the Mv again and I couldn't get it to read a voltage.
Its going to the dealer on Tuesday for warranty work. I have an expanding gas tank as well. We'll see what happens with that too.
Thanks for all the posts here. I checked everything including making sure I adjusted the valves correctly multiple times, but in the end there was no other place to go except pull the heads.