Ducati Monster Forum

The ambient temperature reading on my wife's 09' Monster 696 is inaccurate from Day One!  It was either too hot or too cold, compared to the true temperature, that is.  I tried looking for the temperature probe on the bike to see if it is too close to the engine but I cannot seem to find it and the service manual doesn't mention it. I'm guessing that it is built-in in the main cockpit guage cluster. Talked to the tech guy at the dealer and he simply said it is normal that it is inaccurate!  >:(  If that's the case, then why even put it in as a feature?! Anyone has similar experience? 

nah, dont worry about it. Youll know if its too cold to ride outside  [moto] Also look at it this way, the speedometer isnt going to be accurate either.

The fuel light doesn't always work, either.

Welcome to the board, btw.

Thanks guys! The ambient temp reading on my 1098 is pretty good so I just assumed that the 696 one should work the same way... Well, I've got 3 Italian stalions in the garage so I guess I should have expected that some of the "features" are just for shows.  [laugh] 

So some of the 696's fuel lights don't come on at all or comes on too late? Wify wouldn't be too happy if she gets stranded so I'd better just gas up 1st whenever we ride then.

i think a couple of people were having the temp sensor problem and had to have it replaced. it's not normal, it's wrong.

i never had a problem with that or the fuel gauge.

have your wiring harness checked. there is a service bulletin out about some wires above the vertical cyl, not sure if those are there or not.

Thanks. I will raise the issue again next time the 696 goes in for dealer service.

Is this it? #7

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(http://www.fototime.com/CEC1E59D9EA816F/orig.jpg)

if #7 is it, then it looks like they are trying to read the temp from the fresh air in the duct as it goes into the engine? if thats the case i would think by the time the air gets to that area its a little warmer than ambient ??

Tell them it's a safety issue...the temp helps you know if there might be ice on the road. ;)

I'd say yes.  IIRC, when someone else around here had this issue, they found out that the sensor used to generate the reading is in the Air Intake tract.  Maybe even the same sensor the engine uses to determine the temperature based O2 density? 

I searched the workshop manual and saw this before I posted but thought that this is an illogical place for it so I wrote it off as a sensor used for the engine management.  If it is in fact the same sensor then that's pretty lame.  But then again, this is the lowest Ducati in its current lineup so I won't be surprised if it is trying to save a buck or two on costs here & there... 

I'm in So. Cal so the road ice issue prolly won't fly but I'll definitely take it up with the dealer anyway.

Yes, I'm one of the one's who has pregnant doged on here about the stupid location for the air temperature sensor on the 696 and the Monster 1100. I was also asking if anyone else could ride their bike and confirm if their temp reading was way out of kilter, but no one ever did respond to that request.

The location of the air temp sensor is in fact ridiculous since they are using it to determine the air temp reading that the users would look at to see what the air temp is. If it was solely for the computer use, then shouldn't it be in the air box, where it can't get heated up by the engine temperature?

Yes, I agree that they should either remove that air temp feature, or have a proper sensor for that information source, like they have on every other model of bike they have sold in the past.

I'm half tempted to buy one of those sensors, and place it in a different location, and see what results I get.
Typically, the sensor on other Ducati's is located under the upper triple.

BC.

It read 104F right after I rode her home from the dealer!  How lame is that?!  Did your dealer also tell you that it's "normal" that it is inaccurate?  :o

Yup, they told me that its 100% normal.
Being told that its 117 degrees on a 55 degree day doesn't seem normal to me.

I can only wonder if the air to fuel ratio is getting screwed up somehow because the computer is being told the air temperature is a non-realistic value.

Also, if the sensor gets to too high of a temperature, the dash will read ---.
Is the computer able to make sense of that value?
No one can give me a straight answer on that, either.

BC.

This may seem to be an inappropriate question, but how important is it for a motorcycle to tell you how hot, or cold it is?

Don't you guys sweat...

or shiver?

 [thumbsup]

I think the underlying issue is x amount of dollars= a bike that should have correct instrumentation.

OK....

why is it even included in 'instrumentation? It doesn't make the bike run does it?

My monster has a speedometer, an added tach and a few idiot lights that really don't amount to much.

It is a monster.

If I wanted to know the temp I'd ask my...

Focus?

Nah.... [laugh]

It's not fitted to my '09 M1100s.... although my '08 M696 did have it.  Consequently I now never know if its warm enough to go out riding or not  ;)

My R6 had a read out that seemed to be accurate, it was in the intake track but a very different set up.  I liked that feature but never really missed it on the mostro.

Yes, that's the primary issue.

The secondary issue is that if the sensor is giving off bs numbers that aren't realistic, is the computer using those same bs numbers, and causing damage to the engine via the incorrect fueling?

Ducati refuses to answer that question every time I directly ask them about it.

Ducpainter,
Just because you and I could care less about the air temperature, doesn't mean that the bike doesn't need to correctly know what the air temp is.

BC.

If that's the issue, why aren't we fussing about the inaccurate speedometers or nonexistent fuel gauges?

+1

Ambient temp. gauges only tell you how hot it really is when you're sweating your ass off...or how cold it really is when you're freezing it off. Who cares...ignorance is bliss as far as I'm concerned. I don't need a read-out to remind me that my dumb ass decided to ride when it was 39 degrees out!  ;D

As far as the fueling goes...damn, you guys worry too much! Does your bike run OK? Then ride it and quit worrying about every little thing. It is probably OK if it seemingly runs well.

Well, for one, some people may be more anal retentive (me) than others! 

Do I must have it in order to ride it? No. I've done fine without it on my other bikes and the M696 is my wife's ride. However, if Ducati put it out there as a function then it'd better work, otherwise why even put it out there in the 1st place?  Since the temp reading on my 1098 works very well, I naturally expected substantially the same from the M696 and am disappointed when it doesn't work nearly as well. I have more annoying problems on my MV Agusta but that's another story for another day/forum...

Because no one would buy the S2R1K without the motor in it?

I must say I'm always pleasantly surprised when Italian machinery actually works. Perhaps that's prejudiced of me, but my experience would lead me to be upset if the temperature gauge on a BMW were off by a few degrees and elated when the Ducati instruments even turn on.

By comparison, on my modern Vespa there is a fuel gauge but it's connected to some alternate reality. Its digital clock loses several minutes per week, and the charging system is so poor that the battery will run down to nothing with the engine running with the scooter on the centerstand. This is an Italian-made 150cc scooter with an MSRP of $4,299 so one might expect the electricals to work better than a $1,200 plastic Chinese import, but one would be mistaken. Don't even get me started on my friend's Maserati (or just about anyone's Alfa).

As others have pointed out, the engines on 696's seem to function just fine irrespective of what's going on with the temperature gauge. I'm about as obsessive-compulsive as it's possible to be without actually meeting diagnostic criteria and it's just not something I've managed to get too fussed about.

Well, I guess you didn't see the thread I created about my gf's 696 having its check engine light on from the beginning of the season until September when they replaced everything electronic on the engine, including the throttle bodies.

So, no, the bike wasn't running right, and that air temp sensor was the first thing I noticed that was out of synch with reality.

Anyway, the bike ran great when she first bought it.
I ran great when the CEL was on.
But now that everything has been replaced, adjusted and fixed, it actually runs better.

So who knows?
Where's Ducati with an answer?

BC.

Yep, I did. However, you point out that the engine actually ran great at the time. As far as I can tell, the OP for this thread isn't even complaining about poor perfomance or a CEL, just that the temperature readout is inaccurate.

The only air temperature that matters as far as the engine is concerned is the actual temperature of the air before it enters the engine.  That's why the optimal location for the temperature sensore is just before the throttle body.

Air temperature is not used to calculate fueling for startup, so it doesn't matter that it sits above a warm engine and reads a bit high while it's off.

Air temperature under normal circumstances only results in changes to fueling trim, so even if the sensor completely fails or reads incredibly high or low (within its range), engine damage will not result.

Of course it does...

no one said the bike wasn't running correctly.

If the bike is running like crap and the dash temp is wildly inaccurate, and the same sensor is used to provide readings to both then the gripe is valid.

Unless my reading comprehension is really bad no one can even say for sure if they're the same sensor.

All this is why I own old Ducs

Every car I've had with an ambient temperature reading has been (or, more correct) less than accurate.  Why?  The ambient temperature it is reading is the temperature around the sensor, not average air temperature.  Perfect example would be my '87 BMW.  The sensor was in the air dam.  AT speed on the open road?  Damn accurate.  On a 70^o sunny day in NYC traffic?  Readings were sometimes over 100^o.  Why?  Hot exhaust from the car in front of me, hot under hood temperature and hot asphalt.  In short, still accurate. 

I'm not sure if the sensor for the dash reading is the same as the sensor in the intake tract for the computer, but if it is, that would explain inaccurate readings.  The ECU doesn't care if you are comfortable, or the air temperature around your head.  it cares about the temperature of the air entering the engine.  If the sensor for the dash reading is separate, and exists in a location subject to solar heating, such as inside the instrument cluster I would expect the reading to be less than accurate when not at speed on a sunny day.

Yeah, basically the air temp gauge takes an average roughly every minute or so of the air temp near the sensor.  At speed after a few minutes it get fairly accurate.  If you're at idle at a stop for a while the engine heats up the air around it enough to really skew the reading.  It takes a few minutes to bring the running average down to around normal.  There are summer days where it's up in the 110's and takes a few minutes to come down to the 90s where it should be.  In the winter, it starts around 60s or 70s and will go down to 40s after a bit.  It seems fairly accurate at speed.  Your butt can tell you the difference in temperature from the air around your engine compared to the air around your hands and neck.  They'll be greatly different in any season.  Like it's been mentioned, it's more of a novelty than a necessity.  If you don't realize that it's too hot or cold for you to ride before you get on the bike, then a sensor isn't going to help much.

As I've mentioned before, the one useful purpose I see for a temp sensor would be to help you estimate the risk of ice on the road.  Riding on mountain roads the temperatures can easily vary by >30 degrees within 20 miles, and if you are using heated gear you might not realize whether it is 45 or 35, which could make a big difference to the risk of ice.

i live in the same situation. and last year i didn't have any problems with the temp sensor. it was pretty accurate from what i could tell.

I've got a fuel tank growing like a toddler and your griping about a useless feature that if it worked right you would never use ,go jump off a cliff.

Wow, the world, which should be revolving around only you csp808 and your problems, isn't?  [roll] Grow up. Since you obviously have nothing whatsoever of value to add to this particular thread, perhaps you should take your whining back to your own. Now I'd like to post something to the original thread starter and any interested 696 owners.

I am the owner of a 696. The same 696 brought up by Bladecutter. I totally understand the original poster's comments that when you buy something brand new, you naturally expect everything to work. Everything. I don't care if it's a button that does nothing but turn purple and go "whee", it should work. This isn't Microsoft, it's a motorcycle. Shipping with known bugs is bullshit, pure and simple.

Now, some points I'd like to make that keep getting overlooked in this thread by people too interested in being "funny" rather than addressing the actual topic.

1.  The issue is NOT "gee, how can I possibly tell what the temperature is if my bike doesn't tell me?" The issue is why is a known feature on the bike not working correctly from the get-go? An air temp sensor is not a complex thing. Ducati has proven they are capable of putting them on other models without issue. Why does it not work on the 696? And if Ducati truly can't figure out where to put the damn thing so it does what it's supposed to then why even put it on the bike? Here, new owner, we will give you a feature that doesn't work right and when you point it out we will just nod our heads and count your money? Hell, maybe this IS Microsoft!

2. As has been pointed out, this is not a variance of a few or even 20 degrees...on my bike it has turned into a variance of double and more the actual temp and it doesn't come down. It just goes up and up until it stops registering anymore until the next time you go for a ride. And I'm not talking about when sitting in a traffic jam on a hot day. Again, why put the stupid thing on the bike if it is going to be so ridiculous?

3. On my bike, this was the FIRST symptom. The first thing to be "off". Followed by a recurring check engine light. Another innocuous problem on it's own. Another thing most people would say to just ignore it. This was followed by nearly the ENTIRE riding season in the freaking shop with most of the electrical system getting replaced, one painful part at a time. The bike running worse and worse until it was literally unrideable. So yeah, after personal experience with having a brand new bike that couldn't be ridden, I would pay attention to the little things. You might not. And you might not ever have a problem. I, unfortunately, missed the best riding months in one of the best states to ride in...and it started off with a dumb temp sensor.

4. This is one of your fellow Ducati owners. Lord knows, Ducati itself is hard enough to deal with on issues, why throw ourselves under the bus? Although some of you tried to help, some of these posts are downright insulting...to yourselves. A person asked yourselves, the nearest help, a question. Why the posturing? I see it on other threads too, that's why the question.

I am certain that those with the temperature reading problems have issues bigger than just a bad reading. it seems to be a wiring problem. and it seems to be early production models. my VIN last 4 is 1875 and i didn't have issues with the temp sensor.
Ducati does seem to be taking care of these folks, sometimes rather slowly depending on the shop, but it's not being ignored by DNA. So as long as those with problems are consistently talking to their dealers, AND crosstalking here to keep informed, I'm seeing a trend of positive outcomes.
I hope that continues until all those bikes with the issues are fixed.

Seeing winter around the corner tends to make people grumpy. ;)

Hey Bat, I hope you and the other 696 owners get your temp sensors fixed, but you
can't fix ugly, so your stuck with that one.   :D

That was my smartarse point really.  My M696 had the sensor (which as best I could tell worked fine) and my similar-to-696-but-costs-way-more-$$ M1100s doesnt have the sensor.  Now since they could include the (dubious) feature on the less expensive bike, why has it been deleted from the M1100s?  Reliability if operation perhaps?Tsk... kopfjäger I can tell that you have a fine eye for things of beauty..... but your old-school opinions regarding the aesthetic attraction of M696/M1100 are - as I'm sure all M696/M1100 owners will attest - sadly misguided.  You do have a fine looking bike... Now go polish your round heallight some more and leave the future to us  ;)

Well, my VIN is 296x so I don't think the problem is isolated only to "early" production models.  I do hope it'll be taken care of next time I visit the dealer...

 [laugh] [clap]

Oh I'm not the only one by any means, and if that's the future the Monster is doomed.  :D

2003                                                                             2010

Monster 620Dark i.e                                                     Monster 1100
Monster 620 i.e.                                                          Monster 1100 S
Monster 620s i.e.                                                        Monster  696
Monster 800Dark i.e.
Monster 800s i.e.
Monster 1000Dark i.e.
Monster 1000s i.e.
Monster S4

Although we will need you guys to tell us what the temerature is.  ;D

I know the temperature and I can post it on facebook, but it'll be in Celsius....

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/termpads005.jpg)

(http://api.ning.com/files/TAQisU8LBDTC4tC2heaDQOeZS-Rrz2YNGCp-ALFZ1sJzULMurkS8G5BTohOglWuUPCEePfSXGLMBkHkrH2gmH7CuAYuO65-A/arguingontheinternet.jpg)

you know we've gone down this whole old vs new monster blah blah blah
the new monster out handles the old monster when stock
the new monster is 'modular' the old monster is a dent magnet
the new monster is closer to the original concept, the last generation old monster was a monster-mash of different bikes.
the new monster has more power than all the old air-cooled monsters
the new SF takes over the old monster 4-valve position

Monster 695    --->Monster 696    (more power and lighter, better handling)
Monster S2R800--->Monster 696    (more power and lighter ;) takes over two previous gen )
Monster S2R1k--->Monster 1100  (more power and lighter better handling)
                   --->Monster 1100S (more power and lighter AND better suspension better handling)
Monster S4R --->Streetfighter  (more power and lighter better handling)
Monster S4RS--->Streetfighter S (more power and lighter better handling)

looks are subjective, but you can't deny the new bikes are functionally better bikes.

I live happily in denial  [evil]

For me, at 6'4", the 696/1100 are simply too short for spirited riding. I would have too much forward weight and was forced to maintain an upright position, which didn't work well for me. Same thing with the Street Fighter.
It took some modding to get my S2R to work well for me. I'm not the typical Monster rider size, so I basically agree that the new models are overall better bikes to begin with, maybe with a small exception for the S2R lower rev torque delivery.

Looks and style - no match in my view, but as you said subjective.


What was the topic again?  ;D   (sorry)

Of course, that would be true of the 620 and 695, as well, since their seat height and wheelbase are exactly the same as the 696 and 1100. The ergonomics are a bit different so there is a different feel, but it's not because of seat height.

I mentioned short, not low, as in the length from the seat to the bars.

Sorry to chime in so late in here, but it may be possible to isolate the temp voltage signals to the ECU and to the dash and install a new temp sensor part only for the dash.   

OTOH, you can leave it as is and use the dash temperature to troubleshoot the failure of the temp sensor signal.

If it was about better handling I would buy another brand.  ;)


that's true....especially that temperature guage.  :D

  ;D  zing

Of course the newer bikes are going to be better in specific areas. Why would they put out a new bike with less?  

We all know many people try to justify their purchase, so give it a rest already.

FYI: Most 800s dyno with higher HP and TQ than the 696...just throw'n it out there.  [cheeky]

Give it a rest? This is a 696-specific thread in which someone bashed the newer bikes. Raux is entirely justified in responding with his opinion.

 [roll]

there's no reason to go down this path on this thread
Darkstar, if you can't help with a technical issue, take your opinion about the bike to the bashing thread. i promise not to answer :D

I never said any thing bad about the any of the newer model bikes on this thread.  ???


<Kind of back on topic>

The 696 manual off the ducati web site says temp sensor...not ambient.  ???

If the temp sensor is reading the intake temp (correctly), I find that way more useful than reading ambient temp.  

I can get ambient temp from many other sources.

</Kind of back on topic>

right, sorry it was kopfjäger. anyway. thanks for being back on topic.

Where in the online manual do you see that written?
I just looked at both the owners manual in my desk (page 22), and it clearly says "Shows the outside air temp".

Then I went to Ducati's website, and pulled up the manuals for both '08 and '09, and on page 22, they both say exactly the same thing as my manual does.

http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/manuals/2008/pdf/M696-08_en.zip (http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/manuals/2008/pdf/M696-08_en.zip)
http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/manuals/2009/pdf/M696-09_en.zip (http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/manuals/2009/pdf/M696-09_en.zip)

Please let me know if I'm on the wrong page, or have the wrong manuals.

BC.

Correction: "Air Temperature Indicator"
http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/manuals/2008/pdf/M696-08_en.zip (http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/service/manuals/2008/pdf/M696-08_en.zip)

Page 13 #6

This thread makes me crazy...er

The purpose of this thread has been achieved ;D



Guys, isn't this easy? It's not ambient temp, it's intake temp, which is affected by engine temp - not helpful for the rider as much as for the ECU. That's probably why Ducati disabled instrument reading on the M1100, it's just confusing.
If the OP's (wife's?) bike reads extremely high while riding - just a faulty sensor? Or Celsius readings?

I think this whole forum make me crazy...er

catch-22

OP here. I thought my question was simple enough but it grew into a life of it's own and got more entertaining but less helpful.. [clap]

All I can say is "you get what you've paid for"...  The same function works perfectly on my 1098 (and previous 848) within no more than 5 seconds after I turned on the ignition key so I can confirm that there is one such function in the newer Ducatis' dash. I do not care to know that there are other ways to tell ambient temperature or whether such function is needed or not needed on this bike or any bike.

My gripe is that one such function IS on this 696, it has not worked from Day One, and the dealer tech I spoke to said it is normal that it doesn't give out correct reading.  This is not some new, high-tech function that Ducati just invented--it is a fairly low tech thing that's on ALL of my cars (oldest one being a 2002 Mercedes ML)! I would not have missed it if the 696 didn't come with that function but I'm annoyed that it has that function but it doesn't work. If Ducati put a function on the bike, it should expect that the majority of its customers would expect that function to work properly; otherwise Ducati should have just disabled that function completely. I suppose I should just keep telling myself that the 696 is the lowest in the Ducati lineup and that I should be glad most of the things on it still works, for now.  :-X

BTW, it's not in celsius.

going back all the way to the beginning. the temp sensor always worked for me. never indicated an incorrect temp. the dealer telling you it's normal is bullshit.

the temp indicates F or C depending on the country setting you are using. USA=F EU=C

Here's a follow up question for you, since your bike works perfectly:

When you start your bike, does the temp sensor display show the exact temp right away, or does it start at a low temp, and then slowly climb up to the real temp?

My gf's bike starts at a low temp, and slowly climbs up to a real temp.

BC.

WHEN my bike was working... always showed the air temp the same or very close to the same as it was on the weather sites. also very good even when riding. never had issues.