This is my first time doing a valve adjustment 2001 M750 8000K
I just got done sanding all the opening shims, just spent about 30 minutes remeasuring everything.
vertical intake opener clearance = beginning .0015 - end .004 -> I can push a .005 but not a .006 through
vertical exhaust opener clearance = beginning .001 - end .0045 -> I can push a .005 but not a .006 through
horizontal intake opener clearance = beginning .001 - end .0045 -> I can push a .005 but not a .006 through
horizontal exhaust opener clearance =beginning .0025 - end .005 -> I can push a .007 but not a .008 through
I hope you don't think I sanded them to much. I'm happy with the measurements, I heard it's better to be loose anyway, plus I don't really know how to feel the correct friction since this is my first time.
Now for the closing clearance..
It seems I can twist all the closer shims except for one and I don't feel any slack, this is without pressing on the closing rockers. With all the top rocker arms off I don't feel any binding so I'm assuming the closers are not to tight.
When I push on all the closers rockers hard enough I can fit a .010 feeler through, I can't push a .011 except for one I can. Can I apply to much pressure to the closing rockers?
I feel like my all my closer clearance is good. I would say a .007 goes through pretty smooth with moderate preasure.
Does this make sense? Since I had my openers too tight does this automaticaly mean my closers are going to be loose?
Another question I'm going to reuse my valve gaskets and timing belts, after inspection they look good. Do you think I'm crayzy for doing this?
Thank you guys very much for your advise,I feel better about this job with your advise.
If you mean the valve cover gaskets, and they're the metal ones, yes, you can re-use them.
How old are the belts and how many miles are there on them?
I measure between the closer shim and the closer rocker while pushing on the closer rocker, so I've got no good feedback for ya on how you're doing it.
Making sense of everything in your original post was tough, but I think I got it.
You have your openers between 0.004 and 0.005. This is good.
When you push down (or "load") the closers what you are doing is allowing yourself to measure the opener to determine the gap at the closer when it is unloaded. You would then subtract the loaded and unloaded numbers to get the measurement of the closer.
In your case, you have a 0.004 unloaded measurement and a 0.010 loaded, that means that your closers have a 0.006 gap, which is loose for the closers. You want 0.000-0.001 if you are trying to get them as close to perfect as possible. To do this, you need to replace the closer shims.
The relationship between the openers getting tighter and the closers looser is a function of a lot of things like valve seat wear also by the shim half rings wearing in. There isn't any magic formula though.
If your belts are good, go ahead and reuse them. Remember that the spec is 2 years OR 12,000 miles. If you have any doubts that the belts are in that range, go ahead and replace. I have a set of the new ExactFit belts from CA-Cycleworks and love them, especially for the price.
If your gaskets are paper, why would you bother to reuse them, they are cheap? If you have the o-rings like the S2R motors, I wouldn't replace them unless they look bad.
I hope that I understood your description and this helps. Good Luck!
So when it comes to measuring the closers, how much pressure do you use to "load" before measurement? Is there something I'm looking for to know that I've loaded enough, or do I push for all I'm worth?
dp
You definitely don't push for all you're worth.
All you're doing is counteracting the assist spring.
Be firm..not brutal
Cool. That was my gut feeling. You can kinda feel when things settle. But it seemed like the measurement I got was directly related to how hard I pushed.
All my openers are spec'ing out at .005 to .006 mm. On a bike with 20,000 miles. Is that unusual? And should I bother changing the ones that are measuring at .006mm?
The book says;
Nominal 0 - 0.05mm
In Operation 0 - 0.20mm
Whatever the hell that means :)
dp
Quote from: canyonchaser on March 21, 2010, 10:19:10 AM
Cool. That was my gut feeling. You can kinda feel when things settle. But it seemed like the measurement I got was directly related to how hard I pushed.
All my openers are spec'ing out at .005 to .006 mm. On a bike with 20,000 miles. Is that unusual? And should I bother changing the ones that are measuring at .006mm?
The book says;
Nominal 0 - 0.05mm
In Operation 0 - 0.20mm
Whatever the hell that means :)
dp
The reason you can change the measurement by how hard you push is that you're actually flexing the rocker arm...cut that out. ;D
I think you have an extra 0 in your numbers. Assuming you mean .05 and .06 they're all too tight and should be adjusted. You can sand the shims you have. It's not unusual at all.
What kind of closer numbers are you getting?
Sorry. I got that backwards.
All my closers are between 0.05 and .06mm
all my openers are between .10 and .13mm
dp
Quote from: canyonchaser on March 21, 2010, 10:36:35 AM
Sorry. I got that backwards.
All my closers are between 0.05 and .06mm
all my openers are between .10 and .13mm
dp
That is somewhat unusual...unless all the openers were loose from the factory.
Intakes at .004" exhaust at .005".
I'd adjust all the closers.
The specs Ducati uses today are 'relaxed' to enable longer service intervals and make maintenance costs appear lower. The old spec of as close to zero as possible with no binding will make your bike run better and the adjustment and the collets last longer.
If you're doing it yourself the additional cost is negligible.
Yeah, I'm thinking you are correct.
Everytime I adjust the valves on a Ducati I go through this. I don't feel consistent or precise enough on my "loading the closer" to feel like I'm getting a precise measurement. But by 20k miles I'm thinking, surely, the closers gotta' be needing an adjustment. So I'm not exactly sure on how much to change the closing shims.
dp
Quote from: canyonchaser on March 21, 2010, 10:49:30 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking you are correct.
Everytime I adjust the valves on a Ducati I go through this. I don't feel consistent or precise enough on my "loading the closer" to feel like I'm getting a precise measurement. But by 20k miles I'm thinking, surely, the closers gotta' be needing an adjustment. So I'm not exactly sure on how much to change the closing shims.
dp
Again, you can sand shims to fine tune as long as you buy a large enough shim.
When you do an adjustment do you remove the belts so you can check for binding by turning the cam?
Also, a very competent tech friend always adjusts closers first and then rechecks openers. He swears that they change.
I do indeed remove the belts. It's the only way to do it. But I've never felt I needed to adjust closers before. So I'm on new ground, even though I've owned dozens of Ducati's and adjusted lotsa openers over the years.
dp
Quote from: ducpainter on March 21, 2010, 10:44:25 AM
That is somewhat unusual...unless all the openers were loose from the factory.
Intakes at .004" exhaust at .005".
I'd adjust all the closers.
The specs Ducati uses today are 'relaxed' to enable longer service intervals and make maintenance costs appear lower. The old spec of as close to zero as possible with no binding will make your bike run better and the adjustment and the collets last longer.
If you'reS doing it yourself the additional cost is negligible.
Since the closing clearance never becomes smaller, Ducati did not enable longer service intervals by changing the minimum closer clearance from <.001 to .002" minimum. That has nothing to do with it. It was changed for some other reason.
Quote from: Armor on March 21, 2010, 01:27:04 PM
Since the closing clearance never becomes smaller, Ducati did not enable longer service intervals by changing the minimum closer clearance from <.001 to .002" minimum. That has nothing to do with it. It was changed for some other reason.
That's right...they
always grow...
which is why they made a larger clearance acceptable...
thereby extending service intervals.
Think about it.
Just did my first valve job on a 2000 750 with 7000 miles on it. Openers were all tight and were readjusted to .004 and closers were fine. One thing I noted, at least on the horizontal cylinder was that the opener and closer dimensions changed between having the belt on or not. Is this usual or is it indicitave of another issue? I've put 300 miles on it this week and it is running smooth and strong so at least emprically, its working....
Quote from: WarrenJ on March 21, 2010, 06:14:42 PM
Just did my first valve job on a 2000 750 with 7000 miles on it. Openers were all tight and were readjusted to .004 and closers were fine. One thing I noted, at least on the horizontal cylinder was that the opener and closer dimensions changed between having the belt on or not. Is this usual or is it indicitave of another issue? I've put 300 miles on it this week and it is running smooth and strong so at least emprically, its working....
The only causes could be that the belt was slightly rotating the cam...
or the cam bearings are worn and the taught belt is pulling the cam closer to the rockers.
How much different?
About .002 - I went with the dimensions with the belt on as this is the operating condition. In that condition, I had .004 on the openers and .0055 - .006 with the rocker depressed - delta of .0015 to .002
Quote from: WarrenJ on March 22, 2010, 04:31:43 AM
About .002 - I went with the dimensions with the belt on as this is the operating condition. In that condition, I had .004 on the openers and .0055 - .006 with the rocker depressed - delta of .0015 to .002
I'd pull the belt and check for movement of the cam I think. I've never heard anyone else say the numbers changed from installing the belt.
I think your closers are a bit loose.
The couple of sources I looked at for dimensions recommended .002 - what is your recommendation?
Quote from: WarrenJ on March 22, 2010, 04:38:00 AM
The couple of sources I looked at for dimensions recommended .002 - what is your recommendation?
That would be a max. dimension according to Ducatis new specs.
As close to zero as possible without any binding of the cam.
Is this "new spec" for newer bikes or is it an updated spec for all monsters?
Quote from: WarrenJ on March 22, 2010, 04:45:36 AM
Is this "new spec" for newer bikes or is it an updated spec for all monsters?
It is a spec that Ducati published to reduce maintenance costs. It started in '05 or '06 with no real changes to the bikes when all of a sudden a bike could now go 7500 miles between adjustments instead of 6K.
You decide which numbers you want to use.
The consensus seems to be that a 2V Duc will run better with the tighter tolerances.
What changes as the clearance is reduced to zero? I'm new to working much on internal combustion engines so please bear with me - I'm trying to conceptualize the relationships of the parts I just worked on and the causes and effects of the changes I made.
Quote from: WarrenJ on March 22, 2010, 05:07:19 AM
What changes as the clearance is reduced to zero? I'm new to working much on internal combustion engines so please bear with me - I'm trying to conceptualize the relationships of the parts I just worked on and the causes and effects of the changes I made.
The effect of the forces on the keepers, or collets, for one. Loose closers and high rpms can break the collets. The valve also closes slightly later with increased clearance. So you are in effect altering the cam timing. A loose, or tight belt, will do the same.
We should probably stop jacking this thread... :-[
Ducati changing the Minimum clearance from <.001 to .002" has NOthing to do with longer service intervals. Think about it. Changing the max clearance will extend the service intervals.
Quote from: Armor on March 22, 2010, 07:48:20 AM
Ducati changing the Minimum clearance from <.001 to .002" has NOthing to do with longer service intervals. Think about it. Changing the max clearance will extend the service intervals.
So longer service intervals and extended intervals are different...
how?
Seriously are you a Ducati employee? ???