4,000 miles after a dealer-performed valve/guide/seal replacement, at least one of the valve guides (vertical exhaust) is shot. Haven't checked the horizontal exhaust or vertical intake yet, horizontal intake seems tight. This is really BS. I ride pretty tame, the bike gets treated really well - can't understand why this is happening.
Anyway, I've written to DNA (again - they gave me the one-finger salute when I wrote to them 4,000 miles ago) and don't hold out much hope. So I assume I'll be doing as much of this work as possible. So my questions are:
Can I pull the heads myself? (assuming yes)
What prep is needed for machining? Can I do all this myself?
Is there a source of better guides than the ones Ducati sources, both OEM and whatever crap they used for the repair work?
Is valve replacement mandatory? (Got 4 new valves 4,000 miles ago)
Please offer any recommendations/tips/etc.
Any FHE/strong recommendations for a machine shop locally here in Denver, or elsewhere?
Is the M800 motor prone to this somehow? Nothing I've read points to a systemic problem.
I have some experience with rebuilding engines and doing general auto mechanical work, and am comfortable with most aspects of wrenching. Thanks for any guidance.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blackdiamondvalves.com%2F&rct=j&q=kibble+white&ei=ZgCCS_64L4-1tgfRxdyUBw&usg=AFQjCNGt4xgdmmeOogSjxKBBtw1WNh7GMw (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blackdiamondvalves.com%2F&rct=j&q=kibble+white&ei=ZgCCS_64L4-1tgfRxdyUBw&usg=AFQjCNGt4xgdmmeOogSjxKBBtw1WNh7GMw)
The kibble-white guides have a great rep.
The actual machining is pretty standard stuff. The guides are a press fit, and just the valves and seats need to be machined. Any good machine shop should be able to do it.
edit...
valve replacement is not required if they're within spec
This is *exactly* why I'm retrofitting 8mm valves into a DS engine... Longevity!
How are you determining your valve guides are shot?
First clue was the burned oil odor when I pulled the vertical exhaust valve cover. Then, the dreaded valve wiggle. The top of the valve (with everything removed) moves like half a millimeter. I have not measured it, but it's significant.
My Haynes manual says that removal of the vertical cylinder head (from a 750) requires the engine to be pulled. Can anyone confirm that this is necessary on an M800? Thanks, and I appreciate the info on Kibble-White guides.
Quote from: Mr Earl on February 22, 2010, 03:59:09 PM
My Haynes manual says that removal of the vertical cylinder head (from a 750) requires the engine to be pulled. Can anyone confirm that this is necessary on an M800? Thanks, and I appreciate the info on Kibble-White guides.
Conventional wisdom says you don't have to remove the motor on a monster 2V.
It may actually be easier to remove the front/upper motor mount bolt and rotate the engine forward.
That is absolutely necessary on an SS
My 900SS '93 has to tilt the motor but it did not need to be dropped. I sent mine to the Ducshop to be reworked for a good price.
typed that at the same time, hmmm
On a Monster, you will NOT have to remove the engine from the frame to get the cylinder heads off.
Good news on the engine (not) removal, thanks.
Printman, would you be willing to say what you paid the Ducshop for the head work? Did you send them the whole heads, or did you disassemble?
At about 5k miles I had the heads replaced under warranty on my '07 M695 due to the faulty paint issue. Upon removal the dealer found that the guides were already shot. I would have never known it. One of the two new replacement heads had what the dealer recognized as "older style" valve guides - same as the ones that wore out on me. Dealer had them swapped out for "new style" guides, which required a trip to an outside machine shop. I had the 15k service done recently and the guides were all nice and tight.
BK
Is 1/2mm enough to consider it a problem?? I know on my 2005 MTS 1000 I could move the top of the valve about 1/4 inch with the valve off it's seat. (You want to check with the valve off the seat). The amount of play was huge. Does the bike run rough or use oil. Mine did both..
1/4" ?
Quote from: turbodude on February 24, 2010, 12:11:05 PM
Is 1/2mm enough to consider it a problem?? I know on my 2005 MTS 1000 I could move the top of the valve about 1/4 inch with the valve off it's seat. (You want to check with the valve off the seat). The amount of play was huge. Does the bike run rough or use oil. Mine did both..
When I searched the site the number 0.08mm came up as the "service" amount of wiggle. Mine's definitely over that. 1/4" seems really big, like there's no guide left!
The bike idles slightly rougher than I'd like, but doesn't use oil (over 3000-3500 miles between changes.) The shim clearances were a bit off, but not radically. Thing is, the valve wiggle is only going to get worse, and it's gotten this bad over only 4000 miles.
Can anyone recommend a shop that I could ship the heads to for reconditioning? I could disassemble and then ship them, or would consider paying to have the heads dis- and re-assembled. Surely this is within the experience of some board member? Thanks.
One possibility could be that the guides are not getting any/enough oil. This could be caused by a oil hole blockage in the rocker arm. Valve/valve guide clearance is only .001"-.003", so insufficient oil could cause your problem.
Quote from: Mr Earl on February 24, 2010, 03:04:10 PM
~SNIP~
Can anyone recommend a shop that I could ship the heads to for reconditioning? I could disassemble and then ship them, or would consider paying to have the heads dis- and re-assembled. Surely this is within the experience of some board member? Thanks.
<raises hand>
Thanks Speeddog - PM on the way
Quote from: Mr Earl on February 24, 2010, 03:04:10 PM
Can anyone recommend a shop that I could ship the heads to for reconditioning? I could disassemble and then ship them, or would consider paying to have the heads dis- and re-assembled. Surely this is within the experience of some board member? Thanks.
I recommend Ducshop pics of Marks work on my vertical head after my debauchery. You should give them a call although I think a few of them are out this week doing an AMA race in Daytona. Turn around was only a few days and by the time they get back your stuff should be getting there in the post. I took my head to them with everything in it minus valves and shims couldn't ask for anything better.
My handy work
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Batman50/newpics1169.jpg)
Marks
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Batman50/newpics1191.jpg)
Thanks for the recommendation, but I just sent the heads to Speeddog today. Took Ducpainter's tip about using Kibblewhite guides and having them all replaced - again [bang]. <fingers crossed>
does anyone do SFL coatings on the valve guides? i know they are (supposed to be) splash lubed but....
Quote from: Mr Earl on February 21, 2010, 05:54:55 PM
4,000 miles after a dealer-performed valve/guide/seal replacement, at least one of the valve guides (vertical exhaust) is shot. Haven't checked the horizontal exhaust or vertical intake yet, horizontal intake seems tight. This is really BS. I ride pretty tame, the bike gets treated really well - can't understand why this is happening.
Anyway, I've written to DNA (again - they gave me the one-finger salute when I wrote to them 4,000 miles ago) and don't hold out much hope. So I assume I'll be doing as much of this work as possible. So my questions are:
Can I pull the heads myself? (assuming yes)
What prep is needed for machining? Can I do all this myself?
Is there a source of better guides than the ones Ducati sources, both OEM and whatever crap they used for the repair work?
Is valve replacement mandatory? (Got 4 new valves 4,000 miles ago)
Please offer any recommendations/tips/etc.
Any FHE/strong recommendations for a machine shop locally here in Denver, or elsewhere?
Is the M800 motor prone to this somehow? Nothing I've read points to a systemic problem.
I have some experience with rebuilding engines and doing general auto mechanical work, and am comfortable with most aspects of wrenching. Thanks for any guidance.
Hello,
I have a 2003 Monster 1000 DS engine. I only have 12K miles on it and I already need new valve guides. My question is If I get these valve guides replaced how long should they last. It gets really expensive getting these replaced every few years. This just doesnot seem right. Please help if you have any suggestions or answers. I would really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Vinnie
If you're going to replace guides don't get OEM guides.
Get them from KibbleWhite...http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/category/ducati-motorcycle-valvetrain-components (http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/category/ducati-motorcycle-valvetrain-components)
There are a couple of places that use a special guide material that is much better, longer lasting and helps the bike perform better.
www.mbpducati.ca (//http://) in quebec is one
www.italo-teilemarkt.de (//http://) in Germany is another that I know of
they use different materials.
the German one is a harder material that is not an environmental hazard (during machining) like the MBP.
How do you know you need valve guides?
A very large and well respected Ducati dealership sends all of its valve guide problems to a local machinist who was for over 30 years associated with one of the most famous tuners in the racing world. I had the opportunity to discuss this Ducati valve guide problem with him and the following was his response.
For what it is worth ......................
“Repairing Ducati valve guide failure has kept me in business the last few years. The problem is not wear or burning oil but the valve sticking in the guide. Especially the exhaust valve. This is caused by valves with “waists†in them.
That is, the diameter of the valve is smaller (or waisted) just under the head than the rest of the valve stem. When the valve opens, this narrower diameter leaves excess room for the flame front to enter the inside of the guide as well as the outside. This excess heat causes the valve guide to not only expand externally, but to constrict internally. This shrinkage causes the valve stem to stick in the guide. “
(When you heat a material with a similar configuration to a valve guide it not only
expands the exterior but the inner diameter will shrink.)
“I have seen this problem on the M696 models, sometimes right off of the showroom floor. For what ever reason, if this problem is going to occur
it usually happens in the first few thousand miles. After 3,000 miles I should
be safe.
The fix is to remove the guides and replace with a quality product like Kibble White and trim .100†off the bottom of the new guide. That is the amount that
is exposed in the stock guide by the “waist†of the valve. Now, the stem will completely fill the inside of the guide eliminating the flame front from entering
the guide and overheating it.â€
How much are these jobs costing you guys? Mine need replacement and budgeting is necessary - thanks [thumbsup]
Quote from: Raux on January 05, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
the German one is a harder material that is not an environmental hazard (during machining) like the MBP.
afaik - the beryllium (carcinogen) is only a hazard if you breathe in the dust for a long time - similar to asbestos.
Quote from: OT on January 05, 2012, 09:57:55 PM
afaik - the beryllium (carcinogen) is only a hazard if you breathe in the dust for a long time - similar to asbestos.
it needs special licenses and recovery procedure in Germany due to the dust, making it very expensive process here.
The post from Alibaba is VERY good information.
The guy from ITM has been sending the same information to Ducati about the shitty exhaust valve guides and has been blown off as well.
Quote from: chenzo9 on January 05, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
Hello,
I have a 2003 Monster 1000 DS engine. I only have 12K miles on it and I already need new valve guides. My question is If I get these valve guides replaced how long should they last. It gets really expensive getting these replaced every few years. This just doesnot seem right. Please help if you have any suggestions or answers. I would really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Vinnie
Vinne,
Why do you need the valve guides replaced?
this is what i have done, seems to work well.
http://klineind.com/Valve-Guide-Liner-R-System.html (http://klineind.com/Valve-Guide-Liner-R-System.html)
Because it has been hard to start and ocassionally it stalls on me at a stop. So I brought it into Ducati and had it checked and they determined that the guides were bad. Any suggestions?
Vinnie
Quote from: Armor on January 06, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Vinne,
Why do you need the valve guides replaced?
The bike was hard to start and ocassionally stalls at a stop. I brought it into ducati and had it checked. They determined that the guides were bad and it happens to a lot of the new DS motors. Amy suggestions?
Quote from: chenzo9 on January 13, 2012, 03:10:52 PM
Because it has been hard to start and ocassionally it stalls on me at a stop. So I brought it into Ducati and had it checked and they determined that the guides were bad. Any suggestions?
Vinnie
Sorry to hear about your valve guide problems. That's a cool looking bike in your avatar. You should post up some pictures in the "bikes of the DMF" thread. So did you transplant a DS1000 into a 2000 Monster chassis?
Hmm...they sell 39 and 44mm valves there. What do you suppose one would do with those?
Quote from: avizpls on January 13, 2012, 05:19:22 PM
Hmm...they sell 39 and 44mm valves there. What do you suppose one would do with those?
Assuming they're 8mm stems, you could pretty much fix the crappy 900 valve seat profile.
Or at least salvage a set of heads.
Ca-Cycleworks has 40/45 sets that would likely enable a complete fix.
Wow but how much further up in would they be seated? I picture intake vs exhaust valve clashes! Hw doesn't that happen?
What does a good profile look like then? I know the 900s are...shall we say simple, but so bad that you need an extra mm or even two to recut a better shape?
I'm pretty sure I've got a set of M900ie heads with cams, still assembled, I'll check how much clearance there is between the valves on overlap.
The OEM seats have a pretty nasty 'step' in them, my cylinder-head guy said it really kills flow at low lifts, and larger valves and cutting the seats to match would help a *lot*.
Colisbro valve guides are also much superior to standard ducati ones