Ducati Monster Forum

Full free practice times (1 and 2 combined) from the Italian Grand Prix at a wet Mugello, round six of the 2008 MotoGP World Championship.

1. John Hopkins USA Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 1min 54.053 secs
2. Loris Capirossi ITA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 1min 54.520 secs
3. Anthony West AUS Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 1min 55.021 secs
4. Alex de Angelis RSM San Carlo Honda Gresini (B) 1min 55.141 secs
5. Shinya Nakano JPN San Carlo Honda Gresini (B) 1min 55.528 secs
6. Andrea Dovizioso ITA JiR Team Scot MotoGP (M) 1min 55.718 secs
7. Chris Vermeulen AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 1min 55.774 secs
8. Dani Pedrosa SPA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 55.805 secs
9. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 1min 58.618 secs
10. Valentino Rossi ITA Fiat Yamaha Team (B) 1min 58.672 secs
11. Randy de Puniet FRA LCR Honda MotoGP (M) 1min 59.240 secs
12. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 59.436 secs
13. James Toseland GBR Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 1min 59.899 secs
14. Jorge Lorenzo SPA Fiat Yamaha Team (M) 2min 0.004 secs
15. Marco Melandri ITA Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 2min 0.162 secs
16. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Alice Team (B) 2min 1.718 secs
17. Tady Okada JPN Repsol Honda Team (M) 2min 2.810 secs
18. Toni Elias SPA Alice Team (B) 2min 3.305 secs
19. Colin Edwards USA Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 2min 3.586 secs *

* time set in FP2

FP3

1. Dani Pedrosa SPA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 49.975 secs
2. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 1min 50.364 secs
3. Loris Capirossi ITA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 1min 50.527 secs
4. Alex de Angelis RSM San Carlo Honda Gresini (B) 1min 50.616 secs
5. Colin Edwards USA Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 1min 50.750 secs
6. Valentino Rossi ITA Fiat Yamaha Team (B) 1min 50.892 secs
7. Shinya Nakano JPN San Carlo Honda Gresini (B) 1min 51.053 secs
8. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Alice Team (B) 1min 51.086 secs
9. John Hopkins USA Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 1min 51.272 secs
10. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 51.296 secs
11. Chris Vermeulen AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 1min 51.436 secs
12. Andrea Dovizioso ITA JiR Team Scot MotoGP (M) 1min 51.699 secs
13. Randy de Puniet FRA LCR Honda MotoGP (M) 1min 51.760 secs
14. Jorge Lorenzo SPA Fiat Yamaha Team (M) 1min 51.940 secs
15. Toni Elias SPA Alice Team (B) 1min 51.969 secs
16. James Toseland GBR Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 1min 51.995 secs
17. Marco Melandri ITA Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 1min 52.419 secs
18. Anthony West AUS Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 1min 52.967 secs
19. Tady Okada JPN Repsol Honda Team (M) 2min 0.201 secs

He totally drafted Rossi for that time.

Melandri occupying his usual position [roll]

rossi's helmet is toooo funny  [laugh]

 [clap]

esp when he's tucked   [clap] 

(http://www.rideontwo.com/gallery/d/29085-2/FYT_080531172718737_11.jpg)

I was NOT expecting that- awesome!

This is why Rossi's the darling of moto racing.  It will be sad when his talent and his show retires.  Hopefully Lorenzo can keep us entertained with his own antics and talent after the doctor moves on in a few years.

Full race results from the Italian Grand Prix at Mugello, round six of the 2008 MotoGP World Championship.

1. Valentino Rossi ITA Fiat Yamaha Team (B) 42min 31.153 secs
2. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 42min 33.354 secs
3. Dani Pedrosa SPA Repsol Honda Team (M) 42min 36.020 secs
4. Alex de Angelis RSM San Carlo Honda Gresini (B) 42min 37.466 secs
5. Colin Edwards USA Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 42min 43.683 secs
6. James Toseland GBR Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 42min 44.959 secs
7. Loris Capirossi ITA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 42min 45.600 secs
8. Andrea Dovizioso ITA JiR Team Scot MotoGP (M) 42min 46.472 secs
9. Shinya Nakano JPN San Carlo Honda Gresini (B) 42min 46.480 secs
10. Chris Vermeulen AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 43min 1.938 secs
11. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Alice Team (B) 43min 10.774 secs
12. Toni Elias SPA Alice Team (B) 43min 21.174 secs
13. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (M) 43min 21.593 secs
14. Tady Okada JPN Repsol Honda Team (M) 43min 30.002 secs
15. Anthony West AUS Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 43min 31.889 secs

DNF:
Randy de Puniet FRA LCR Honda MotoGP (M) 9min 25.989 secs
Marco Melandri ITA Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 9min 26.358 secs
John Hopkins USA Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 11min 17.629 secs
Jorge Lorenzo SPA Fiat Yamaha Team (M) 11min 11.489 secs

wow.


and now someone needs to go back and time it: who got more screen time on the motogp.com feed, rossi or brad pitt? 

I missed the race since I had to go to a Bday party but I caught the highlights on Youtube.

It looked like I missed a good one  :-\

racing-underground.com

same with last year.  so far 1 guy can ride that bike.

Awesome [thumbsup] best race of the year IMO, narrow track, close pack and insanely fast straight.

Major props to Vale and Alex de Angelis, he rode the crap out of that machine it was 15 laps of me waiting for a huge lowside from the guy.

Really a fantastic race...Rossi had me laughing my ass off with that helmet.  Awesome!!! 

What I would give to see him ride a Duc, just a couple of laps around a track.  Come on Casey!  Lend him your bike!  [popcorn]

T

The unofficial reports (and the visuals I get from watching Stoner closely) is that the Duc is borderline unrideable...and Stoner is riding just close enough to the edge to keep it under control.

I mean just watch his drives out of corners...that thing headshakes like a school headmaster scolding Angus Young...


On a side note, once again Vale has made me proud to be among his fanbase.

Now if they would just produce that damned helmet...I would buy it in a heartbeat.

+1!!

13. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (M) 43min 21.593 secs

Come to Ducati we will treat you right!

So whats changed in the Ducati pits this year?  Back in the day we had two great riders to test changes on the bikes....

(http://7mzdt.com/images/youarehere-timeline.jpg)


sorry.. i just love any good excuse to use that one   ;D

It seems to have gotten a bit better.  It didn't look all that loose when compared to eveyone else at Mugello.  At least not that I saw.

I know the info is outdated but the point is still valid.

The reason Stoner was so good last year and hasn't performed quite that well this year is last year he had ALOT to prove. ANd he earned himself a ride for a while longer. Loris on the other hand had gotten way too comfortable with his perennial Ducati ride. It turned him into something of a prima donna. Currently, the reason he is riding above the other Duc riders is a similar kind of prima donna mentality. Those other riders have been in the premier class a while (by sport standards) now and feel that even if Ducati punts em, they can find another ride elsewhere. So they don't risk themselves nearly as much as Stoner does.

I love watching Stoner ride. He is going a million miles an hour with his hair on fire while riding the most un-rider friendly bike on the grid. Yes, they have improved the package but they still have a long way to go to get to a point where they will have 2 riders in the hunt for top honors in the class.

That being said, Rossi is my favorite so neener neener [cheeky]

Loris is a prima donna? ???  The reason Loris didn't perform well last year is because they shifted from the 990cc bike, which was closer in riding style to the 500 2 stroke, to the 800cc that favored the high corner speed style of the 250s.  Comparatively, it'd been quite a while since Loris had ridden in that style and it took him a while to get his legs.  He started to come on at the end of season, but too little too late.  Don't get it mixed up, Loris made the decision to leave Ducati not the other way around.

Casey was able to adapt for two reasons: his 250 experience was fresher, and his dirt track experience gave him the skills to tame a bucking beast.  I believe the struggles we're seeing him endure this year are a result of losing Loris' excellent development skills.

Keep in mind for a solid portion of the season, his Duc was much, much faster than the other bikes on the grid.  We would watch riders make up some ground in the twisties and then get blown away on the straights.  Not so this year.  The Duc still looks unstable as hell despite any changes.  He's a champ just for riding that thing.  You guys see his near get-off towards the end of the race?  His ass end got around a tad and saw a puff of smoke off the tire.  Scary stuff.  I think we might see Casey dump the bike a few more times this year.  He's riding on the edge methinks.

i don't even know where to start with this one.

core', weren't you arguing single digit and tenths-of-single displacement digits in another thread?  i really can't let you get away with a whole 10cc.
 

[cheeky] ;D

smartass ;D

Then run with it. Nothing wrong with healthy discussion and debate. We all have our favorite riders. Last year, mine gave up on his season and still gave a pretty good show. Fact is, I don't care who is winning as long as the racing is good. I would rather see my racer lose in a battle of 4 or 5 all the way to the finish rather than seeing one person dominate a race from beginning to end.

Then I'll start...  Rossi gave up last year?  I wasn't aware of that.  I remember him having one of the slowest bikes on the grid, I remember 2 mechanical DNFs, I remember Michelin habing a shitty year, but the part about Rossi giving up eluded me - maybe I should follow more closely.


#1.  Stoner has more to prove this year than he ever did. If he wants to rid himself of the "it was the bike/tires" albatross, he needs to do it now that Rossi (whom everyone, including Stoner, is compared to obviously) is on the same "magic" tires.

#2.  Loris is a prima donna? A) He actually won a race for Ducati last year - WAYYYYY more than anyone not named Stoner has done on one this year.  B)  He was the developer of that championship-winning bike, so yeah, I'd say he was a little offended when they wanted him to ride on the Alice team - I would be too.

#3.  Stoner rides like he rides because that's how he rides, not because he needs to risk himself.  One of the reasons that he can get so much out of the Duc is that he can ride it with the electronics seriously "overpowering" him, whereas the other riders prefer more "control" over the bike.  It has been documented that he uses the electronic aids (TC, etc) on their highest setting where Marco and Elias both prefer it nearly off.

Where did you get this MotoGP psychology book btw?  You seem to know exactly what's going on inside all the rider's heads.

ok... this prima donna theory is ridiculous.  think about it: since the 800cc ducati was introduced so far exactly one guy has been able to ride it.  and that guy comes from a dirt track background.  he's comfortable with the bike doing god knows what under him.  the other 86% of the riders that have tried can't get near their normal times on it.  loris is no couch  potato.  we all know marco is a top 5 rider, not bottom 5.  elias was also sure a hell of lot more successful on the honda.  the list goes on.

so last year most of the manus didn't quite get it right with the first 800.  and ducati went for pure speed, which got everyone's attention in a big way.  everyone wanted to ride one.  especially when they saw the success stoner was having.. a success that due to the perfect storm of his riding style on that bike, meant that no one else really understood that the thing was just barely under control. 

conversely, and in the shadow of so much stoner success, first year out the gate for a brand new bike, loris doesn't quite get along with it.. eh, not such a huge indicator for the state of the bike (apparently).  the entire paddock is a) trying to figure out brand new bikes and b) losing drag races to stoner every weekend.  no one really understood that the gp7 was like riding a bike with lopsided wheels.

then there's the fact that michelin, in the face of the new tire rules, completely, utterly fell flat on it's face.  ...about exactly the same time that bridgestone, with their slow-and-steady development tactic, seriously came into their own.  more bright lights away from the ridability of the ducati.

so, end of the year... loris kinda sorta gets the bike sorted enought to win motegi (but knows he's outta there for suzuki.. can't ride that gp7 to save his life), honda finds some balls, yamaha is lost but rossi has already signed with bridgestone and publicly threatened yamaha into giving him a good bike, and stoner with his ONE front tire that works and the heaven-sent symbiotic relationship with the bike easily takes the championship.  -- not that i'm taking a single thing away from him.  he completely deserved the title, no questions asked.

we get to 2008, casey's one tire doesn't work as well anymore, the bike is even more unrideable, even for him and damn well especially for everyone else.  he starts off by winning the annual drag race in the desert but then is visibly lost on set-up after that.  i'm sure they've made up some of that gap, lately, obviously.  but it aint 2007 brother.  fast forward to mugello, and here we are....

ANYway... this: "Those other riders have been in the premier class a while (by sport standards) now and feel that even if Ducati punts em, they can find another ride elsewhere. So they don't risk themselves nearly as much as Stoner does" is absurd.  no one in that paddock is there to do laps and sign autographs; they got rid of the hoff.  NONE of the other ducati riders are anywheres near happy.  they aren't biding their time.  bullshit.  i'm sure that marco and toni, for one, would each give a nut to be back on the gresini honda right NOW.  why?  because that gp8 is like trying to ride a greased pig and no one trusts it.  and the two rookies on hondas are handing them their lunch on a regular basis.  not becuase they're standing back there doing their hair and waiting for next season.  try bending it into a corner at half the speed they ride on a bike you don't trust and tell me what happens.  come on man.

+1.  I just didn't have the energy to address everything wrong (and completely assumption-based) with the aforementioned comments, so I'm glad you did.

yeah, well, i'm out of town for business.. stuck in a hotel room battling time zones.  i have time and energy to burn.  ;)

so what is it, exactly, that makes the GP8 so tough to ride?  electronics, power delivery, geometry?

Wow, you wrote a lot. Can I have a signed first edition when the hardback is released?

I still reckon Ducati will be talking to Chaz again soon though.

The "ducati" logo on the tank.

 [laugh]

bit of a rant, yes.

but keerist.. the notion that certain riders are just kicking back and waiting.  or that the last 1.33 seasons don't have a very complex assortment of factors contributing to how things have gone... completely ridiculous.

yes.  ;)

it's been written that the gp7/8 is "barely under control" by electronics.  so i guess it's the electronics that make it possible to ride it rather than part of what makes it so tough.  they have an extremely advanced implementation of the magneti marelli system. 

when they built the 800 they built the fastest bike they could then spent all their other development time on software.  everyone else started out with a very mass-centralized, even tempered, mechanically balanced 'small' bike.

It would be interesting to see what god could do with the Duc.

I'm sure jerry would figure it out

one of them would probably get it...eventually.

It's interesting...Kawasaki always used to build rockets and would tie a rider on and say "there you go...do what you can with it". Seems Ducati has adopted that philosophy.

Not working any better now, or so it seems.

they still do... have you heard hackings comments about the zx10r?

No...but I'll look for them.

I lost friends on H1Rs.

The Duc of today looks like one of those accelerating.

Heh, it was the first time I ever heard a racer imply a bike was too fast in a while. [laugh]

I am not presuming to know the thoughts of anyone. But I can put myself into their mindset...

Why push it with a bike that by premier class standards is inferior and risk your career when the factory has been giving you the silent equivilant of go pound sand? Ducati has taken the attitude of "Well Stoner can ride it, why can't you?" To me, that sounds like Casey is riding a bit closer to the edge than the rest of the "team". And alot of it *is* him trying to prove that last year wasn't a fluke. The man can ride. Hell, all of them can ride or they wouldn't be there. But why risk your neck when the factory basically ignores you when there are 4 other teams waiting in the wings that change up their camps regularly? And name one team out there that wouldn't be ready to negotiate with a veteran rider to support their up and coming stars for a better overall season.

I am not trying to downplay anyone's performance. I am simply putting myself into their shoes (big shoes to be sure but logic and common sense DOES come in to play here as well as politics).

And Rossi didn't give up persay but he also wasn't pushing as hard after about halfway through the season. He saw that there were issues to be resolved and rather than risk it, if the bike wasn't working exactly how he wanted, he was content with scoring as many championship points as he could without crashing out or blowing the bike up. Look at how he has ridden the last 3 races. The man is possessed. He is having fun again because things are gelling.

There is a reason these guys are racing in the premier class. They are all good. Heck, even Edwards is showing the old horse still has a few more trail rides left in him. As for Capirossi, yeah, I can see how he would be put out by being sent down to the support team.

Sorry ZLT, but I really have to call bullsh*t about your opinions.  Nobody in MotoGP is out there turning laps for the hell of it and every one of them absolutely hates losing.  The Ducati is a piece of dog poo in most respects.  Its a point and shoot bike you have to slide all over the place to get anything out of.  Nicky would probably enjoy it.  Your attitude is that of a quitter.

Anyway..

Rossi pushed the living hell out of that bike to get the results he was getting.  The yammy was the slowest bike on the grid coupled with the same overheating problems of past and mechanical failures of untested equipment changes, plus subpar tires last year.  Coming within one dnf of 2nd place in the championship on that equipment wasn't due to Rossi not pushing the wheels off the thing.


Honestly if that was the mindset, then nobody would sign with anyone but Honda or Yamaha ( this year... no way with Yammy last year ).  Suzuki and Kawasaki wouldn't have anyone riding for them, and the paddock is quickly learning that riding the Ducati is a disaster if you aren't named Stoner.  We would essentially have what, 9 bikes in the field?  These guys push their bikes as hard as they can.  Half the bikes in the field suck compared to the front runners, but trust me those guys aren't packing it in just because they are slower.  Its why you see the men lower in the field go off track more often imo.... they push limits.  Honda has the most consistant bike over the years... so maybe we should just make it a Honda spec series?   [roll]

Absolutely untrue.  Ducati has spent much $$$ testing/developing (including trying to bring Bayliss and Biaggi in to test forthem) to try and make the GP8 more rideable for anyone not named Stoner. 

I must say I love your conviction in the complete absence of any factual support though.

All of those racers aren't trying nearly hard enough.  Definitely not as hard as DePuniet!  The reason he crashes so much is BECAUSE he's so good and pushing like no one else.

You know I'm right, I know daryl and derby both have a special place in their hearts for DePuniet.  :-*

This race I think was amazing, great racing till the end.  Nice fight for 1-3 place, and not too shabby for 4-7 position.

I think everyone in GP pushes VERY hard every race, every time, all the time.  The only exception I can think of is Hoffmanns pregnant dog fest last year which cost him.  Anyone that doesn't push every time in GP can't compete.

So I am a quitter because I would prefer to ride for a team that will take my input seriously and work with me to try and develop a bike that I could ride and be competitive on rather than ride the wheels off of it and still not finish in the top 5 most races?

Anyway, I enjoy debating but when it becomes petty name calling and slanderous remarks about a person you don't even know, that is when I will respectfully bow out rather than lower myself to that level.

 

ok, with all due respect, where in the world do you get these ideas?

so when exactly did they do that?  when they publicly admitted that they are lost on set-up?  or when they admitted that they went too far in one direction with the gp8?  or when they started asking bayliss and biaggi for help?


a) it's your job
b) none of those guys cruise around out there, even in last place
c) how many rookies are there this year?  how are they performing?  watched any 250 races lately?  there's more coming...
d) the 'veteran' riders you are referring to really aren't all that veteran'y.  2-3 years doesn't make you someone to come in and develop a bike or a team


again with the no offense disclaimer but that right there is downright funny.


sure, but at the time, in the shadow of what had happened in '07 for stoner, melandri, and capi, plus capi's age and number of years likely left in the series, that move made a lot of sense for ducati in general.  they *thought* they had the tiger by the tail, understandably so.  i'm sure it stung and i'm also sure that he understood.  plus given the fact that he really didn't get along with the gp7 and the high likelihood that they were going to continue developing it away from him/towards casey, i'm sure that getting the chance to ride another manu's bike was a very welcome change.

Damn dude, you must be bored in that hotel room... ;)

tell me about it.  and not even there yet today.  90% of the work i have to do this week is mind-numbing...

but i'll quit on this topic now.  :)

Name calling and slanderous remarks?  Where?  We're just all dumbfounded by the fact that you're the Miss Cleo of racing and we aren't privy to all the same as-yet-unreleased info.

(http://www.superbikeplanet.com/yamiow/image.jpg)

The problem here is Rossi is so good he can be riding the bike to it's limits and make it look like he's not even trying.

It's so great to watch him again this season. The old Rossi is back.  [thumbsup]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67968

I was somewhat of the opinion that they could have used the GP7 this year and not even made a new bike.  The old bike was so incredibly dominant, that it probably would have been no less than an even match to this years updated machines from the other manufacturers.  Could be a good decision to backtrack a bit for Ducati. 

Regardless though, Stoner is still the only man to have any real success, even on the old machine.  It needs help, new or old.

"Preziosi added that it was more important to restore Stoner's confidence in the bike than to continue development on the GP8 for now."

(yeah i know i said i would drop it ;))

a rider's confidence in the bike is arguably more important than the bike itself.  see: all the other gp7/8 riders, rossi vs. michelin, or (other side of the coin) rossi first year on the yamaha.  "inferior" bike but he trusted it... and dusted everyone.

...one more thing  :D    ...what can i say, it's lunch time....  [coffee]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67945

vowing to help is a far cry from 'refusing to listen', or whatever that nonsense was.

"The torque curve was better but had some malfunctions and the bike wouldn't do the same thing consistently. It's much more important to be able to predict the bike's behaviour when you ride on the limit, and Casey is always on the limit."

This is a key statement as well.

Sounds like they out-tricked themselves.
If the bike is making changes to variables that the rider can't sense, it's going to feel inconsistent.
Then the rider loses trust in his machine.

Even if a bike reacts badly to a particular situation, as long as it does it repeatably, a good rider will work around the problem.

It's why I never enjoyed riding horses.

Not going to open up a whole can of worms but you would think that with issues of this magnitude, it wouldn't have taken them 6 races into the season to take drastic action. And vowing to help 6 races into the season means little. They were having issues in preseason testing...just sayin'.

Enjoy your lunch.  [bang]

really it's not my mission in life to argue with you   [laugh]  and on this one you're, mostly, absolutely right. 

however, remember that *everything* about a successful ride is a very, VERY complex balancing act.  there are so many moving parts, both literally and figuratively, that one little change here can have an unknown waterfall effect on something else way down the line.  if they aren't super careful and deliberate with everything they do it's real easy to get real lost.  drastic changes are by definition a last resort.

Oh I know about the balancing act. I spent 6 seasons racing WERA and CCS endurance races. It wasn't fun when we couldn't get things dialed in when you had 4 6 or 8 hours a race to do it. But we were able to get things to a point where we weren't fighting just to come in last. Hehe.

I just think Ducati could have done alot better overall.

sunday sprints were always  more fun after a saturday endurance.  ;D

I always preferred sprints to springs, but that's just me ;)

 :P