Ducati Monster Forum

So, no politics or ranting or anything like that, but I have been reading about this issue for weeks now and so far I have not heard a single first hand account of this happening to anyone.

Since we have over 6200 people on this board who are relatively familiar with the advanced operation of a motor vehicle, I figured I'd ask the question and satisfy my curiosity.

So tell me. Have you or anyone you know experienced an episode of unintended acceleration on any model of Toyota or Lexus?

http://www.examiner.com/x-10697-California-Autos-Examiner~y2010m3d8-CHP-assists-Prius-driver-with-stuck-pedal--Reportedly-neutral-and-power-button-did-not-work (http://www.examiner.com/x-10697-California-Autos-Examiner~y2010m3d8-CHP-assists-Prius-driver-with-stuck-pedal--Reportedly-neutral-and-power-button-did-not-work)

Quote from: NAKID on March 08, 2010, 03:41:14 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-10697-California-Autos-Examiner~y2010m3d8-CHP-assists-Prius-driver-with-stuck-pedal--Reportedly-neutral-and-power-button-did-not-work (http://www.examiner.com/x-10697-California-Autos-Examiner~y2010m3d8-CHP-assists-Prius-driver-with-stuck-pedal--Reportedly-neutral-and-power-button-did-not-work)

i heard this story and as much as I despise Priuses and Prius drivers, I call bullshit.

the power switch on the Prius is a direct kill switch to the brain.  unless the car is saying "I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Dave" I would bet my bar membership that this is a case of a person looking to cash in.

Which problem - floor mat or electronics?

I have experienced floor mat / pedal problems on even non-toyota cars, so I am sure that is real.

The electronic acceleration - the jury is still out IMO.  I could see it happening just knowing how touchy electronics can be in hostile environments over time.  And, even if it is the old cliche - only 1 in a million, with 10 million vehicles on the road, it will show up.

mitt

Quote from: NAKID on March 08, 2010, 03:41:14 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-10697-California-Autos-Examiner~y2010m3d8-CHP-assists-Prius-driver-with-stuck-pedal--Reportedly-neutral-and-power-button-did-not-work (http://www.examiner.com/x-10697-California-Autos-Examiner~y2010m3d8-CHP-assists-Prius-driver-with-stuck-pedal--Reportedly-neutral-and-power-button-did-not-work)

That driver is a moron.  Why couldn't they just wedge their foot into the side of the pedal and yank it out?  Those mats aren't that strong, or even bolted down.  I have had it happen to me before and yes it freaked me out for a second, but I didnt need a police escort to figure out what was wrong. 

It doesn't say if it is a man or woman, young or old...  I'm going to take a wild guess and keep it to myself  [roll]  I also find it VERY hard to belive that it wouldn't go into neutral.

It's the "won't go into neutral" part that really gets me.

I have an '06 Highlander Hybrid. The brake pedal feels a little mushy. I got used to it by my 6th stop.

Quote from: mitt on March 08, 2010, 03:47:50 PM
The electronic acceleration - the jury is still out IMO.  I could see it happening just knowing how touchy electronics can be in hostile environments over time.  And, even if it is the old cliche - only 1 in a million, with 10 million vehicles on the road, it will show up.

mitt

i wonder how likely it is someone hacked into Toyota's development group systems and changed the ECU code so a random acceleration problem appears.......

i mean... if the throttle is 100% ecu controlled, then it runs software of some kind.  just 2-3 lines of code and blammo, you have a random # generator and if you roll 5d20 and hit 97 or more, you get eaten by orcs.

No problems with my Toyota. If I needed another car today, I'd happily buy a Toyota. But I don't, because my Toyota is the most reliable car I've ever owned.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 08, 2010, 05:02:57 PM
i wonder how likely it is someone hacked into Toyota's development group systems and changed the ECU code so a random acceleration problem appears.......

i mean... if the throttle is 100% ecu controlled, then it runs software of some kind.  just 2-3 lines of code and blammo, you have a random # generator and if you roll 5d20 and hit 97 or more, you get eaten by orcs.

My reasoning is more from an electrical connection, noise, or insulation degradation situation than a software glitch.  That is the approach the Asst Prof at S. IL also took to show it could happen.  From what I understand, his method was pretty extreme and needed a safe guard to fail to make it work, but again, if you have 10 million vehicles out there, if it is even possible, it could happen a hand full of times.

For example, if a throttle position sensor goes bad, it is supposed to fail into a fail safe mode, so it "limps" home - this has happened to me in the past on my honda crv.  But, if that fail safe default fails, then the ecu could see 50% throttle when the accelerator is only at 10%, and cause this sort of unintended.

mitt

I am certain that the floor mat issue is a red herring, sure mats do get ruffed up under the pedals but , Fly by wire throttles and all the other computer connects to Auto box etc is more likely  a problem and toyota desperately want to cover it up.
they have a history of hiding problems ..the Fortuner is banned for sale in USA,EU and OZ as it rolls over too easily and also poisons its passengers due to exhaust vents exiting into cabin but toyota still happliy sell them in Asia and they kill people here every week .i lost 2 friend in a fortuner rollover recently .Toyota have a lot to answer for.

We have a Toyota Corolla, and on 1 or 2 occasions, when we have engaged the cruise control it has yanked the throttle open and accelerated well beyond the set speed
but all I did was turn off the cruise control and the throttle returned to normal.

What I don't understand is why can't these people hit the brakes, pull the car out of gear, pull on the E brake, switch off the engine, something......
Surely something will stop the car.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 08, 2010, 05:02:57 PM
i wonder how likely it is someone hacked into Toyota's development group systems and changed the ECU code so a random acceleration problem appears.......

i mean... if the throttle is 100% ecu controlled, then it runs software of some kind.  just 2-3 lines of code and blammo, you have a random # generator and if you roll 5d20 and hit 97 or more, you get eaten by orcs.

[laugh] Can I make a saving throw?


So, this is interesting. I originally asked this question, not because I doubted it could happen. I mean the Woz found a very specific instance where it could happen. But, because all the testimony I heard from the people at the Congressional hearing sounded like BS. Especially the retired gentleman who said he was standing on the brake at a stoplight and the car was trying to get away from him. Now, I have known that to happen to some people because they were hitting both pedals and panicked. But I digress.

I'm going with idiots for $500 Alex.

Remember the great Ford Explorer/Firestone tire debacle? Yeah, the tires might have been shitty here and there, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of it boiled down to morons who can't be bothered to check their tire pressures.

Toyota? Yeah, there might be glitches. But despite the cars having drive-by-wire throttles, doesn't cramming your foot under the go pedal and lifting up have the same effect as on a car with conventional linkage?

I get the feeling some of these people wouldn't last a week in some of the junk I used to drive....

Quote from: superjohn on March 09, 2010, 02:36:59 AM
[laugh] Especially the retired gentleman who said he was standing on the brake at a stoplight and the car was trying to get away from him. Now, I have known that to happen to some people because they were hitting both pedals and panicked. But I digress.

I have done that before too.  Panic stop, slam on the brake and gas at the same time.  Luckily it was a manual so I just slammed both feet down, the car stopped but the engine red lined.  I wouldn't be suprised if that happend to the old man by accident and he didn't realize it.  I also can't imagine that the prius has enough power to pull away from a stop while on the brakes.  

Quote from: Vindingo on March 09, 2010, 02:49:48 AM
I have done that before too.  Panic stop, slam on the brake and gas at the same time.  Luckily it was a manual so I just slammed both feet down, the car stopped but the engine red lined.  I wouldn't be suprised if that happend to the old man by accident and he didn't realize it.  I also can't imagine that the prius has enough power to pull away from a stop while on the brakes.  

The inability of away from the light with adequate force on the brake pedal really goes for any car.  I'll skip the physics, and just add a little reality.  Back in my youth people but big modified V8s with automatic transmissions into cars with 8" anemic drum brakes drum brakes.  They would use a technique called "power braking" to launch them in a drag race (yea, I know, the technique is used today, but new cars have much better brakes).  The big buck guys would use a "line lock" (still used) that would just apply the front brakes, allowing the rear wheels to spin, like doing a burn out on your bike.

One area where it appears Toyota missed the boat, I could be wrong on this not knowing much about Toyota (paging Randy) is many drive by wire cars are programed to reduce throttle if the brakes are applied while in gear.  My Audi will not go over about 1300 RPM.  In neutral it will not go over about 3.5K RPM, in other words, if you check it into neutral it will not blow up.

Interesting read:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)

I couldn't find it on google, but back in the days of the run away Audis Car and Driver set a car up so the passenger could trigger every possible cause of unintended acceleration.  Of course, they also added a brake pedal on the passenger side.  The drivers were ordinary people. Every driver who was not able to stop the car had mistakenly their foot planted on the accelerator pedal.

Quote from: howie on March 09, 2010, 03:57:59 AM.... Every driver who was not able to stop the car had mistakenly their foot planted on the accelerator pedal.

so does this mean that every person who has this problem in a Toyota is a moron?

not that i would be surprised, considering the problem(s) has/have happened mostly in Camrys and Priuses..

I own a 2003 Lexus RX300 I bought December 23 2008.

It had 72k mi on it.

It now has a 79k mi on it (yeah, I drive a lot).


Not in the Carfax report is this problem addressed.

and

I haven't experienced it.

I like my SUV. It is nice, comfortable, and rides well.


Sticky accelerator? Through the make the beast with two backser in neutral and hit the brakes accordingly based on the situation you are in.

Quote from: mitt on March 08, 2010, 05:35:12 PM
My reasoning is more from an electrical connection, noise, or insulation degradation situation than a software glitch.  That is the approach the Asst Prof at S. IL also took to show it could happen.  From what I understand, his method was pretty extreme and needed a safe guard to fail to make it work, but again, if you have 10 million vehicles out there, if it is even possible, it could happen a hand full of times.

For example, if a throttle position sensor goes bad, it is supposed to fail into a fail safe mode, so it "limps" home - this has happened to me in the past on my honda crv.  But, if that fail safe default fails, then the ecu could see 50% throttle when the accelerator is only at 10%, and cause this sort of unintended.

mitt

I read an article about that U of IL-Carbondale (or whatever the University in Carbondale is....maybe it is S. IL.).

The watch dog group that monitors cars, comprised of reps from each manufacturer, experts, etc etc.

They said that guys test was a bunch of shit. It "could" happen but only with severe tampering and some sort of re-routing of the circuit board.

but again........that is just what I read. I am not into electronics and can't even use a voltmeter other than to fry fuses.

I have a 2008 Prius and have had zero problems in 2+ years....but the electronics can do strange things, a 2009 company owned one at work was turning on by itself then starting and stopping the engine to keep the battery charged over a weekend, was able to shut it down when I came across it in the lot, but AFAIK it still has not been fixed.  Sometimes consider going back to the dead reliable and easy to fix BMW twin and VW bug I owned back in the '80's (points, carbs, etc.) after hearing of electronic woes (like the fact that my Monster can die if the gauges get wet in the rain  [bang])

Quote from: victor441 on March 09, 2010, 05:09:29 AM
I have a 2008 Prius and have had zero problems in 2+ years....but the electronics can do strange things, a 2009 company owned one at work was turning on by itself then starting and stopping the engine to keep the battery charged over a weekend, was able to shut it down when I came across it in the lot, but AFAIK it still has not been fixed.  Sometimes consider going back to the dead reliable and easy to fix BMW twin and VW bug I owned back in the '80's (points, carbs, etc.) after hearing of electronic woes (like the fact that my Monster can die if the gauges get wet in the rain  [bang])

Have Zhoul, the Keymaster or Gatekeeper been near it?

Electronics are sensitive to things that mechanical devices are not.  There have been a lot of recalls in the last 10 years on automotive electronic devices - crash sensors (my 2006 nissan had this), ignition switches on fords, ecu modules, due to corrosion on connections making the brain unit not see the proper reading.  I can't rule out yet there isn't something like that happening here. 

A sensor is just a device converting something mechanical into electrical, typically voltage.  If you have a connection on or in the sensor that is going bad (intermittent higher resistance), it can look just like the sensor measurement to the control unit, and you can have unintended outputs.  I have seen this first hand in my field.

mitt

There are 2 separate issues here. One is the floor mat, which can potentially happen in just about any car, and the other with the hybrids. The hybrid issue is a software problem, so it would need to occur in a car that has all the fail safes bypassed. It would be extremely rare. Now since the transmission is also electronic I'm not sure if you can simply pop it into neutral like you could in a normal car. That would be my personal choice if put into that situation. It's happened enough for Toyota to be facing this kind of scrutiny, but people are acting like if recalls were not a normal occurence. I had to recently take my Accord for an airbag recall. No big deal and my Accord is by far the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned.

Quote from: duccarlos on March 09, 2010, 05:24:59 AM
There are 2 separate issues here. One is the floor mat, which can potentially happen in just about any car, and the other with the hybrids. The hybrid issue is a software problem, so it would need to occur in a car that has all the fail safes bypassed. It would be extremely rare. Now since the transmission is also electronic I'm not sure if you can simply pop it into neutral like you could in a normal car. That would be my personal choice if put into that situation. It's happened enough for Toyota to be facing this kind of scrutiny, but people are acting like if recalls were not a normal occurence. I had to recently take my Accord for an airbag recall. No big deal and my Accord is by far the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned.

There are at least 3 issues currently

1 - floor mats (all mfg's, all models)
2 - electrical unintended acceleration like in camry's and lexus (the current hot topic in congress)
3 - prius electrical stuff - like acceleration and braking weirdness

Ok, the second one was the one I was missing. Does it accelerate like if the cruise control is set to a very high speed?

Quote from: duccarlos on March 09, 2010, 06:05:39 AM
Ok, the second one was the one I was missing. Does it accelerate like if the cruise control is set to a very high speed?

From what I have seen & read yes - but it is the one that can't be reproduced without several layers of tampering with the factory electronics - so the jury is semi-literally still out.  There is a 3 billion dollar class action being created.

mitt

The floor mat issue is an oversight on Toyota's part and can be easily fixed. Nissan figured it out no problem...the drivers side mat in my Xterra has a hole in the rear of it which fits over a pin attached to the seat rail. What do ya know...the mat never slides forward!

All I can say about the electronic issues is one of the main reasons I didn't buy the Lexus IS350 was because the steering is completely electronic...no mechanical connection to the wheels apparently. The salesman was quite proud of this recent development in automotive technology, and loved to describe how the car "helps" you steer into crosswinds and such (like when passing a semi).  [puke] Unfortunately for him he couldn't explain what happens to the steering in the car when you lose power unexpectedly going down the freeway.  :-\ Unlikely, sure...but plausible...and I'd rather not find out I had no steering in that situation.

I know that either my Accord or the Sienna has that pin. Don't remember which off the top of my head.

Quote from: howie on March 09, 2010, 03:57:59 AM


One area where it appears Toyota missed the boat, I could be wrong on this not knowing much about Toyota (paging Randy) is many drive by wire cars are programed to reduce throttle if the brakes are applied while in gear.  My Audi will not go over about 1300 RPM.  In neutral it will not go over about 3.5K RPM, in other words, if you check it into neutral it will not blow up.

If my memory serves correct the only cars that do the rev limit thing are audi/vw and they only set it up like that because a few years back they had a similar problem to the current Toyota issue.


From what I've been told Toyota is currently treating two issues. One is a "software problem", which they are attempting to fix by reprogramming the ECU. The second is the sticky throttle linkage. I'm not sure what they are actually doing to fix that, but it involves removing and reinstalling the pedal assembly.

The floor mat issue is mostly a red herring.

Quote from: mdriver on March 09, 2010, 06:44:47 AM

From what I've been told Toyota is currently treating two issues. One is a "software problem", which they are attempting to fix by reprogramming the ECU. The second is the sticky throttle linkage. I'm not sure what they are actually doing to fix that, but it involves removing and reinstalling the pedal assembly.

I forgot about the sticky linkage problem due to "supplier defect" part, so there are at least 4 different hot topics.

mitt

Quote from: mitt on March 09, 2010, 06:37:19 AM
There is a 3 billion dollar class action being created.

mitt

and the IL Professor is supposedly working with this group...........


what a surprise.........

Quote from: mitt on March 09, 2010, 07:06:04 AM
I forgot about the sticky linkage problem due to "supplier defect" part, so there are at least 4 different hot topics.

mitt

I thought that was what caused the acceleration issue?

The pedal was getting stuck.


shit, I need to keep up on my news.


1. Floormat (knew about)
2. Sticky Accelerator (knew about)
3. Computer Making car accelerate uncontrollably (never heard of until I read that professor tampered and made it work)
4. What's the 4th?

Quote from: Triple J on March 09, 2010, 06:37:32 AM
The floor mat issue is an oversight on Toyota's part and can be easily fixed. Nissan figured it out no problem...the drivers side mat in my Xterra has a hole in the rear of it which fits over a pin attached to the seat rail. What do ya know...the mat never slides forward!

my '06 tacoma mats were like that when i bought the truck.

I just can't figure out why companies would make car with fully electronic acceleration or steering.  Where is the benefit?  I would think it would be more expensive for one.  I trust mechanical over electrical any day.  Planes are fly by wire now, I believe, but don't they have at least 3 levels of redundancy/backup?   :-\

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 09, 2010, 07:22:17 AM


1. Floormat (knew about)
2. Sticky Accelerator (knew about)
3. Computer Making car accelerate uncontrollably (never heard of until I read that professor tampered and made it work)
4. What's the 4th?

4 - weirdness in prius braking - new software is supposed to fix

Quote from: mitt on March 09, 2010, 08:02:19 AM
4 - weirdness in prius braking - new software is supposed to fix

Is there like a USB port where you hook a jump drive up to it, start the car, hit a button or 2 and it updates the computer system off the firmware on the drive?

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

but seriously.......it probably does get upgraded like that.

Kind of scary.

I think you simultaneously hold down the brake, accelerator, and turn the key.

Sort of like ctrl-alt-delete.

Quote from: Speedbag on March 09, 2010, 08:55:16 AM
I think you simultaneously hold down the brake, accelerator, and turn the key.

Sort of like ctrl-alt-delete.

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

I remember when my Dad got a new battery in his 91 Audi Quattro at Sears (took them an hour to find the battery........it was under the back seat). They forgot to keep power to the car, so of course anti-theft locked out the stereo.

I pawed through the manual to find out how to unlock it. Holy shit, it was so make the beast with two backsing funny:

1. Hit AM once
2. turn the tuner know three clicks left, then four right.
3. Hit program keys 1 5 3 4
4. Hit eject on tape player
5. Press power 5 times.


It was so make the beast with two backsed up.

Sounds like the key fob programming proc on my old Xterra

Both my F150 and all of my wife's recent VW's have had a latch to hold the floor mats.
If you put pressure on both the brake and gas simultaneously, the fuel cuts out on the VW.

As far as benefit of dive by wire? Only thing I can think of is no firewall penetrations for a mechanism.

On the news right now. Guy in a Prius had to be told through a police officer's loud speaker how to stop his Prius.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 09, 2010, 09:07:45 AM
Sounds like the key fob programming proc on my old Xterra

Probably similar system


I heard VW now charges a few hundred bucks to unlock your stereo.

I sure as hell can't find the "code" card in my owners manual and I got the car brand new.

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 09, 2010, 09:11:34 AM
Probably similar system


I heard VW now charges a few hundred bucks to unlock your stereo.

I sure as hell can't find the "code" card in my owners manual and I got the car brand new.

TRUE. I work for a used car reconditioner, and we have to send all of the locked out VDub's to the dealer so they can do it. No other way. We've tried it all. LOL

Quote from: duccarlos on March 09, 2010, 09:09:53 AM
On the news right now. Guy in a Prius had to be told through a police officer's loud speaker how to stop his Prius.

yeah, i'm not buying that dude's story at all.

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 09, 2010, 09:11:34 AM
Probably similar system


I heard VW now charges a few hundred bucks to unlock your stereo.

I sure as hell can't find the "code" card in my owners manual and I got the car brand new.

You'll be make the beast with two backsed if you lose the coding, they'll have to take the head unit out to get the serial number and then hook the car up to the internet and jump through a bunch of hoops to get the code back.  I used to hate doing it when I worked on Audi's

Quote from: metallimonster on March 09, 2010, 09:31:22 AM
You'll be make the beast with two backsed if you lose the coding, they'll have to take the head unit out to get the serial number and then hook the car up to the internet and jump through a bunch of hoops to get the code back.  I used to hate doing it when I worked on Audi's

So why not just use the old system of giving the user the make the beast with two backsing code?

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 09, 2010, 09:36:11 AM
So why not just use the old system of giving the user the make the beast with two backsing code?

Do people really steal factory stereos anymore?

mitt

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 09, 2010, 09:36:11 AM
So why not just use the old system of giving the user the make the beast with two backsing code?

You should have got at least 2 different cards with the radio serial number and the code care when you bought the car.  I was inferring that since you don't have them you're out some money.  If you bought your car from a good dealer they should have a copy of this on the checklist when they prepped it after delivery.

Quote from: derby on March 09, 2010, 09:14:39 AM
yeah, i'm not buying that dude's story at all.

i hope Toyota pulls the black box and shows he had the gas floored the whole time.

Quote from: metallimonster on March 09, 2010, 09:54:48 AM
You should have got at least 2 different cards with the radio serial number and the code care when you bought the car.  I was inferring that since you don't have them you're out some money.  If you bought your car from a good dealer they should have a copy of this on the checklist when they prepped it after delivery.

Didn't get any with the last few brand new VW's we've bought...

Well, I haven't worked on Audi/WV's for about 3 years now so it could be different now but I doubt it.  A lot of dealers cut corners when prepping new cars.  We got paid basically nothing to do them and they took about a half hour a car.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 09, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
i hope Toyota pulls the black box and shows he had the gas floored the whole time.

The black box only shows what the sensor on the pedal was outputing, not the position of the pedal  ;D 


mitt

Quote from: mitt on March 09, 2010, 10:56:35 AM
The black box only shows what the sensor on the pedal was outputing, not the position of the pedal  ;D 


mitt

and it would show if he was pressing on the brake too, no?

Quote from: metallimonster on March 09, 2010, 09:54:48 AM
You should have got at least 2 different cards with the radio serial number and the code care when you bought the car.  I was inferring that since you don't have them you're out some money.  If you bought your car from a good dealer they should have a copy of this on the checklist when they prepped it after delivery.

I don't recall ever seeing a key card in there. Ever. I've even been told by VW that I'd have to take it in if that happened.

Mine is a 2004.

Who knows.

Quote from: mitt on March 09, 2010, 09:48:45 AM
Do people really steal factory stereos anymore?

mitt

Seriously.

If someone wants my VW Monsoon tape/cd player, they need it more than me...............

I believe there is a drop in repl for the Monsoon with MP3 cd and HD radio.  I should find it again and pick it up.

Quote from: metallimonster on March 09, 2010, 09:31:22 AM
You'll be make the beast with two backsed if you lose the coding, they'll have to take the head unit out to get the serial number and then hook the car up to the internet and jump through a bunch of hoops to get the code back.  I used to hate doing it when I worked on Audi's

not that big a deal, it took 10 minuets to get the code. jump threw hoops? shit I used to do it when we had to use the satellite system.

then when the vehicles had address 19 (different years in different cars) they stored the code and the radio presets in the instrument clusters non volatile memory. radio codes are pretty much a non issue.

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 09, 2010, 11:14:34 AM
I don't recall ever seeing a key card in there. Ever. I've even been told by VW that I'd have to take it in if that happened.

Mine is a 2004.

Who knows.

Seriously.

If someone wants my VW Monsoon tape/cd player, they need it more than me...............

yours is stored in the instrument cluster. by about 2002 most vw's were at this point, it varies greatly in audi's depending in who the radio suppler was (bose was the last to catch up, some cars as late as 2005)


anyway, on to toyotas problem.

they make one funky difficult and non responsive shifter, the start button is a bad idea and some of them had sticky throttle pedals or the floor mat issue.

now they've got hundreds of whiney criers who don't want their car and more because of the bad publicity and their lack of understanding the issue. toyotas real problem to deal with is the hords of idiots who bought the car thinking of it as a investment, and now the value is in the toilet so they want out.. I've got some news for these people, your prius isn't a f'n investment.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 09, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
and it would show if he was pressing on the brake too, no?

It would show what the sensor on the brake pedal was outputting - again - you would assume it shows what the driver is doing, but there are a lot of documented cases in engineering where the sensor was outputting a faulty signal.

mitt

Meh

I was reading... not sure if its true but people were saying you cant put the car in neutral or turn the car off when the car is going a certain speed. maybe turning the car off makes sense but why not neutral if that is true.

This is one of the many reasons why I drive a Manual =)

Quote from: Ghostly Pip on March 09, 2010, 09:14:17 AM
TRUE. I work for a used car reconditioner, and we have to send all of the locked out VDub's to the dealer so they can do it. No other way. We've tried it all. LOL

If you have the code you do it yourself for free, if not, the dealer has to pull the radio to get the serial number then go on line to VW to get the code.

Quote from: ROBsS4R on March 09, 2010, 01:01:33 PM
This is one of the many reasons why I drive a Manual =)

+1, haven't owned a car with an auto transmission in 13 years.

How do you operate a manual style system?

I've always been on automatic.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 08, 2010, 04:51:06 PM
It's the "won't go into neutral" part that really gets me.

The Prius doesn't have a neutral, reverse,  or even a conventional transmission, it uses planetary gears connected to the engine and the two motor/generators and the interaction of the parts is computer controlled, functionally it is like a CVT...FWIW there is a good page on this with an  interactive simulation at http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ (http://eahart.com/prius/psd/)

So the drivers wasn't a dump ass ???

I watched the news interview tonight and he said he didn't
try to put it in neutral since he thought it might go in reverse... WTF

Quote from: ROBsS4R on March 09, 2010, 08:47:13 PM
So the drivers wasn't a dump ass ???

I watched the news interview tonight and he said he didn't
try to put it in neutral since he thought it might go in reverse... WTF

who knows?  he might well be, but the Prius "shifter" is really a multi-position switch so it is plausible that if the computers were wigging out it might be ignored...FWIW reverse on the Prius is handled by running one of the electric motors in reverse rotation rather than with gears

Can you reach up and turn the key off on these models?

Quote from: kopfjäger on March 09, 2010, 09:04:17 PM
Can you reach up and turn the key off on these models?

no conventional key on a Prius (and maybe some other models??), just an on/off button and a smart key you keep in your pocket or in the dash...from what I've read the off button needs to be held down for three seconds (an eternity in an emergency) when the car is moving and this doesn't happen in a panic situation, most people don't know this and understandably jab at it instead

Quote from: victor441 on March 09, 2010, 09:09:18 PM
no conventional key on a Prius (and maybe some other models??), just an on/off button and a smart key you keep in your pocket or in the dash...from what I've read the off button needs to be held down for three seconds when the car is moving and this doesn't happen in a panic situation, most people don't know this and understandably jab at it instead

Those pesky keys have always been a problem.

Quote from: victor441 on March 09, 2010, 09:00:25 PM
who knows?  he might well be, but the Prius "shifter" is really a multi-position switch so it is plausible that if the computers were wigging out it might be ignored...FWIW reverse on the Prius is handled by running one of the electric motors in reverse rotation rather than with gears

seems to me the system should be designed so shifting into neutral while moving is permitted as a failsafe. 

even shifting to reverse on this car wouldn't hurt -- an unenergized DC motor going in reverse won't hurt it at all.

Quote from: victor441 on March 09, 2010, 09:09:18 PM
no conventional key on a Prius (and maybe some other models??), just an on/off button and a smart key you keep in your pocket or in the dash...from what I've read the off button needs to be held down for three seconds (an eternity in an emergency) when the car is moving and this doesn't happen in a panic situation, most people don't know this and understandably jab at it instead

and yet this guy had time (and was calm enough) to grab his phone, push four buttons, and talk on the phone while speeding down the highway at 90mph+ for 20 minutes.

Does a Prius have a NaviComputer so it can calculate the jump into hyperspace?

Quote from: derby on March 10, 2010, 04:04:02 AM
and yet this guy had time (and was calm enough) to grab his phone, push four buttons, and talk on the phone while speeding down the highway at 90mph+ for 20 minutes.

well, his name is Michael Schumacher..

another copy cat?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius_ny (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius_ny)

or real problem?


mitt

have any of these incidents happened anywhere but NY and CA?

Quote from: ducatiz on March 10, 2010, 01:06:21 PM
have any of these incidents happened anywhere but NY and CA?

Considering the number of things that have only been found to cause cancer in rats in Cali when the rats were made to ingest the substance...

I doubt it.

Quote from: ducpainter on March 10, 2010, 01:09:37 PM
Considering the number of things that have only been found to cause cancer in rats in Cali when the rats were made to ingest the substance...

I doubt it.

i know there are more Toyotas in those states than others just because of the sheer number of people/cars, but it seems like you'd hear of one somewhere outside of lawsuitland.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 10, 2010, 01:37:20 PM
i know there are more Toyotas in those states than others just because of the sheer number of people/cars, but it seems like you'd hear of one somewhere outside of lawsuitland.

one would think.

Quote from: ducatiz on March 10, 2010, 01:37:20 PM
i know there are more Toyotas in those states than others just because of the sheer number of people/cars, but it seems like you'd hear of one somewhere outside of lawsuitland.

In the hinterland here it could be a) we don't have the number of police on the road to save us or b) even if we are stuck at 90mph, there is nothing to run into.

It would be interesting though to know the distribution of cars, miles drive, and stupidity from coast to coast.  ;D


mitt

Quote from: mitt on March 10, 2010, 03:54:37 PM
In the hinterland here it could be a) we don't have the number of police on the road to save us or b) even if we are stuck at 90mph, there is nothing to run into.

It would be interesting though to know the distribution of cars, miles drive, and stupidity from coast to coast.  ;D


mitt

i just keep thinking of the 911 call from that guy in cali...."thave me!  thave me!!! mah car's gone cwazy!!  i don't know how to shift to neutral!! thave me!!"

Quote from: ducatiz on March 10, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
i just keep thinking of the 911 call from that guy in cali...."thave me!  thave me!!! mah car's gone cwazy!!  i don't know how to shift to neutral!! thave me!!"

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

I guarantee the guy is a liar. I've delt with shitty idiotic customers, I've seen it before.

he was told the day before "your car is not involved in this recall, have a nice day" not words he wanted to hear, he wanted to hear "oh, its fixed now" or some other line of bull that made him happy.so he decided it was time to get back and show them there is something wrong with his car. what a great story to get back at them, day after they tell him its fixed it goes on the rampage.

he was on the brakes, just enough to keep from slowing down, those brakes will easily overcome that puny little turd of a engine and their washing machine motors.. that car should have stopped NO PROBLEM.

nope, he kept his foot on the gas, pegged, and foot dragging the brakes just enough to give the appearance of being stomped on, they will get hot, and they did and burned up.

I guarantee there is no problem with that car, I bet those brakes will stop a 400hp car, never mind that little shuttle pod.

Since those brakes actually recharge the battery, they tend to be stronger than normal brakes.

Quote from: duccarlos on March 11, 2010, 04:59:33 AM
Since those brakes actually recharge the battery, they tend to be stronger than normal brakes.

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]



I think all Prius's need to be shipped to Bespin's Cloud City for repairs

People keep posting why dont these drivers with run away toyotas hit the brakes ?

but it has been reported in the press and in Automotive journals and is widely discussed in the trade that after the wrecks were inspected the Brakes were found to be completely BURNED OUT !!!!!!!! thats why the cars could not stop!!!!!!!

Toyota today were founfd to have hidden rpoerts from their own engineers that the cars were dangerous in 2006  ...

Quote from: jerryz on March 11, 2010, 06:44:21 AM
People keep posting why dont these drivers with run away toyotas hit the brakes ?

but it has been reported in the press and in Automotive journals and is widely discussed in the trade that after the wrecks were inspected the Brakes were found to be completely BURNED OUT !!!!!!!! thats why the cars could not stop!!!!!!!

Toyota today were founfd to have hidden rpoerts from their own engineers that the cars were dangerous in 2006  ...

Got a link? I've yet to see anything involving the brake wear on a suspect car. I would be curious to check it out.

I just saw a Prius while driving home for lunch.

It appeared to be operating just fine.

Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 11, 2010, 09:14:35 AM
I just saw a Prius while driving home for lunch.

It appeared to be operating just fine.

45 MPH in the fast lane?

Quote from: MrIncredible on March 11, 2010, 09:16:52 AM
45 MPH in the fast lane?

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Nah, it was stopped at a traffic light.

Apparently her accelerator did not get stuck

But her parking brake was?

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)

Most of it is bullshit.

LA

Quote from: LA on March 11, 2010, 09:33:02 AM
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)

Most of it is bullshit.

LA

wow, those Roush mustang brakes suck.

Quote from: acalles on March 11, 2010, 09:54:45 AM
wow, those Roush mustang brakes suck.

I think 540 hp had something to do with it.  ;)


I also haven't heard of any Prius incidents here in Seattle...and we might just have the highest per capita ownership of smugmobiles in the world...they're friggin' everywhere, fuglifying our streets.

Quote from: Triple J on March 11, 2010, 10:03:03 AM
I think 540 hp had something to do with it.  ;)


I also haven't heard of any Prius incidents here in Seattle...and we might just have the highest per capita ownership of smugmobiles in the world...they're friggin' everywhere, fuglifying our streets.

the 70-0 stop distance with no throttle, for a performance model sucked. supposed high performance car got beat by the G37 convertible, not the coupe which would be lighter, but the convertible.

Quote from: acalles on March 11, 2010, 10:24:56 AM
the 70-0 stop distance with no throttle, for a performance model sucked. supposed high performance car got beat by the G37 convertible, not the coupe which would be lighter, but the convertible.

ah...I thought you were talking about the 900' distance.  :P

Quote from: Triple J on March 11, 2010, 10:40:13 AM
ah...I thought you were talking about the 900' distance.  :P

no, but that was a bit excessive  [laugh] although commendable (for not fading away), but a 500+ hp car should have some monster brakes.. most performance cars are in the 150 ft range for that speed.

That Mustang is super heavy. Even though convertibles tend to be slightly heavier than the normal models to compensate for the lack of roof, I think the Mustang outweighs the G37 by quite a large margin. But I do agree that a "performance" car should have massive brakes to stop it quicker.

Maybe they did the Roush full throttle test immediately after all the other tests, and saw some horrendous brake fade.

You'd think that car would brake much better. Either it had OEM brakes or they weren't broken in properly (or both).

Quote from: duccarlos on March 11, 2010, 12:33:48 PM
That Mustang is super heavy. Even though convertibles tend to be slightly heavier than the normal models to compensate for the lack of roof, I think the Mustang outweighs the G37 by quite a large margin. But I do agree that a "performance" car should have massive brakes to stop it quicker.

quick googling.

453 lbs heavier then coupe, thats a lot, its 4130 lbs total.

mustang curb weight 3700lbs.

the mustang brakes must really suck, probably stock GT brakes.

Yeah, that really sucks. I guess Roush only make their cars to go fast, not necessarily to stop fast or even turn.

This is braking under full throttle, right?  What does it do under normal braking?

It shows that in the chart as well.

So it stops essentially as well as the G37, and way better than the Camry under normal braking.  It would seem to be more of a horsepower thing than lousy brakes.

More info on the idiot o' the week.

http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration (http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration)

The poor braking performance on the Roush Mustang could be due to many reasons.  More than likely, brake balance was poor, causing the ABS to kick in prematurely or the linings were glazed, changing the coefficient of friction or a combination of both.  The incredibly long stopping distance from 100 with the go pedal down to the floor was probably extreme brake fade. 

Quote from: MrIncredible on March 11, 2010, 05:24:50 PM
More info on the idiot o' the week.

http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration (http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration)

RUH ROH!

QuoteUPDATE: We're now hearing rumors that Sikes has a history of items in his possession being stolen and him filing for insurance claims. We found at least one case of this in his bankruptcy documents, which we've included below. We're told we should know more about a second incident shortly.
[Did Bankrupt Runaway Prius Driver Fake "Unintended Acceleration?"]
But there's also another, more salacious tidbit we've found which may or may not be irrelevant â€" we're still trying to fit this piece into the puzzle. With a tip from a commenter at TTAC, we discovered Sikes owned and operated a web site called AdultSwingLife.com. Interesting. There's also a report from KTLX with a neighbor stating he may have been involved in the porn industry.

Ohh man, that guy is in some trouble now!

I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in jail over this. wtf was the guy thinking?

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Just makes it even funnier.



I still like the performance of an F1 car:

standing still to 100mph to a dead stop: 9 seconds.

Quote from: acalles on March 12, 2010, 04:47:22 AM
Ohh man, that guy is in some trouble now!

I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in jail over this. wtf was the guy thinking?

$?  [laugh]

Quote from: acalles on March 12, 2010, 04:47:22 AM
wtf was the guy thinking?

anal?

NOT SAFE FOR WORK. guy cusses like...well.... some one who cusses a lot.

still, funny as hell.

2010 Toyota Prius brake problems. Easy fix, amazing documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c#normal)

Quote from: derby on March 10, 2010, 04:04:02 AM
and yet this guy had time (and was calm enough) to grab his phone, push four buttons, and talk on the phone while speeding down the highway at 90mph+ for 20 minutes.

he also 'reached down and tried to pull up the accelerator pedal' which sounds near impossible if you ask me.

i believe this is 'user error' at best, and fraud at worst.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/12/runaway-toyotas-what-about-driver-error/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/12/runaway-toyotas-what-about-driver-error/)

Quote from: acalles on March 12, 2010, 12:34:33 PM
NOT SAFE FOR WORK. guy cusses like...well.... some one who cusses a lot.

still, funny as hell.

2010 Toyota Prius brake problems. Easy fix, amazing documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c#normal)

what he said

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/03/15/von.tn.rock.slide.wbir?iref=allsearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/03/15/von.tn.rock.slide.wbir?iref=allsearch)

Quote from: He Man on March 16, 2010, 02:31:59 AM
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/03/15/von.tn.rock.slide.wbir?iref=allsearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/03/15/von.tn.rock.slide.wbir?iref=allsearch)

WTH? And he shifted into reverse in mid air?


And it would appear that 2 people have experienced the Toyota thing themselves, but no story? I don't want anyone getting slammed, but I am curious whether you two felt it was the floor mat, sticky pedal, or an electronic issue and how the issue occurred.

wait i totally gave you the wrong link .lol let me fix that

the other videos below... click on the one that says Prius Hoax.

Quote from: acalles on March 12, 2010, 12:34:33 PM
NOT SAFE FOR WORK. guy cusses like...well.... some one who cusses a lot.

still, funny as hell.

2010 Toyota Prius brake problems. Easy fix, amazing documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c#normal)

"HOLY make the beast with two backs! WE'RE STILL ALIVE!"

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

More info. Seems it's a hoax, which is no surprise.

http://jalopnik.com/5493829/toyota-predictably-agrees-the-runaway-prius-was-a-hoax (http://jalopnik.com/5493829/toyota-predictably-agrees-the-runaway-prius-was-a-hoax)

Annnd the ABC report was not really....uh..kosher

http://gawker.com/5496549/toyota-demands-retraction-and-apology-from-abc-news-over-manufactured-death-ride (http://gawker.com/5496549/toyota-demands-retraction-and-apology-from-abc-news-over-manufactured-death-ride)