Ducati Monster Forum

I use my clutch for everything but fast upshifting.

Heh Ms said the very short version of what I said.

I've never seen a convincing argument for how shifting without the clutch can make you a safer or better street rider.

too much of a scardy cat to try upshifting without it.  I will never trust myself to downshift without it. 

Take a look at Lee Parks book Total Control - there's a good description of the method for clutchless upshifts.  Quite simples and works very well from 2nd on up.  1st to 2nd on my bike gives a good lurch so I use the clutch there.  Though proably not a necessary skill to have, learnig a little more never hurt.

You shouldn't downshift w/o the clutch .. it's a bad plan

Okay, here is another question since most of us rack most of our miles on the road...

I've heard that coasting with the clutch pulled is a good way to wear it out prematurely.  I'm not talking about the times you would normal need power to the wheel in order to keep your suspension engaged but rather, rolling up to stop lights/signs, stop and go traffic, and low speed traffic maneuvering.  Do you stress about keeping it in gear or dropping to neutral?  Is there any reason to?

It's strange maybe but this is one of the things I think about while riding...along with keeping light hands, pointing my head, and scanning.

yeah, i read the lee parks technique.  Still don't like the idea of not using the clutch.  :-\

By keeping in gear at a light, you might avoid a rear ender... which costs A LOT more than a clutch pack right?  [thumbsup]

I've never seen a convincing argument for how shifting without the clutch can make you a safer or better street rider.

If you're not comfy with it... then don't do it.  Doesn't do any harm right  ;)    There's way more important skills to have over clutchless up shifts

I've heard that coasting with the clutch pulled is a good way to wear it out prematurely.

Engine breaking...downshift and letting off clutch slow.  No jerk assumed.

Ah - engine braking. This is one of the areas in which spelling really does make a difference. "Braking" and "breaking" have very different meanings, and engines can both break and brake. They can even take a break. Hence my confusion.

Okay, here is another question since most of us rack most of our miles on the road...

I've heard that coasting with the clutch pulled is a good way to wear it out prematurely.  I'm not talking about the times you would normal need power to the wheel in order to keep your suspension engaged but rather, rolling up to stop lights/signs, stop and go traffic, and low speed traffic maneuvering.  Do you stress about keeping it in gear or dropping to neutral?  Is there any reason to?

I'm dumb, so I voted for the wrong question... I CLUTCHLESS shift when fast upshifting.  Sometimes I'll downshift clutchless, but lately I've been using less engine breaking in attempts to improve my gas mileage.

Being able to shift w/o the clutch can be a handy skill to have in your riding repertoire.  (even if you're not good at it)

I've known riders who have 'limped' their bikes home after a spill -- their clutch levers broke off...

How do you improve mileage by using less engine braking? I thought the fuel consumption when engine braking was almost zero, while using the clutch and keeping the engine at idle still uses fuel. Or are you doing something else?

You all should try clutchless downshifting, I am surprized nobody is really talking about it.  Just blip the throttle as you downshift and it will work quite nicely when you get the timing down. You can read about it in the Total Control book, where they explain in detail the techniques for speed shifting as well.  And blipping the throttle sounds way cool too!  Once you learn it you will never go back.

Also, on the upshifts you will need to use the clutch to get out of first gear because it is just too jerky without the clutch, but beyond that clutchless upshifting or speed shifting is pretty neat.

I never realized how clutched shifting upsets the suspension so much.

A quick shifter basically works by sensing when you push down the shift lever (for GP shift) for an upshift and it momentarily cuts the throttle to give you the blip to complete the shift without using the clutch.

You all should try clutchless downshifting, I am surprized nobody is really talking about it. 

Can anyone comment from experience how much easier clutchless shifting is with a quick shifter;  is it really worth the money?  From my understanding Dynojet is the only company that sells this device and you have to remap after you install it.  Just wonder if its really worth it.  I don't think it is for street riding; maybe for the track.

Down shifting - you, me and most mortals must use it.  If you're very skilled at matching your engine RPMs to the wheel speed you can down shift safely w/o the clutch.  But for most folks, we're not that good and you'll get at min, protests from the drive line - at the worst you'll lock the rear or bust something.  Unless you've got ninja skills and a slipper, it's very wise to use the clutch while down shifting

Being able to shift w/o the clutch can be a handy skill to have in your riding repertoire.  (even if you're not good at it)

I've known riders who have 'limped' their bikes home after a spill -- their clutch levers broke off...

I have no idea what quickshifter works with Monster applications but I know you can get it in two flavors, stand alone and PCIII USB. Both operate in the same manner and momentarily cut the ignition while you're shifting. The one I had plugged directly into the expansion slot on the PCIII and required no additional modifications. I know that the standalone requires some sort of mods to work with the ignition but I'm not sure what. You should be able to find that info on Dynojet's website.

It is the greatest thing since sliced bread and I'll definitely be getting mine repaired once I get around to it. :)

Alright, let's keep it simple.

Scenario 1: You're cruising in sixth gear at, say, 9.000 rpm.  You blip the throttle without doing anything else.  What happens?  The rpms climb rapidly and the bike lurches forward.

Scenario 2: For this one we'll assume no throttle.  You're coasting in sixth gear at 9.000 rpm.  You try to downshift, but the bike won't readily pop into the next lower gear because of the load on the gears.  You force the downshift to happen anyway.  As soon as the lower gear pops into place the engine is still revving at 9.000 rpm, but the rear tire is now spinning too fast for your engine speed.  Two things can physicallyhappen to fix this situation: a) your engine revs can climb to match the rear tire speed of b) your rear tire can slow down.

In this case, the weakest link in your chain of resistance is rear tire traction.  The rear tire is going to brake traction and skid along until it's slowed down enough to spin in unison with the engine.  While this is happening, it is reasonable to expect you to feel like you're being thrown forward as you've described.  After all, your rear tire is locking up and decelerating the bike.


To fix Scenario 2, we have to bring the engine rpms up to match rear tire speed as soon as the downshift happens.  We achieve that by simply doing both things at the exact same time: we downshift while blipping the throttle - the lower gears slips in place while we raise the rpms to match rear tire speed.

To be perfectly smooth, everything has to happen with a purpose and at the exact right time.  You do have to be firm without brutalizing the mechanics.  Imagine you're leading in a waltz: you don't want to confuse your partner with wishy-washy input.  Tell the bike in unmistakable terms what it is you want it to do, but tell it gently.  It's the old iron-fist-in-a-velvet-glove thing.

You will want to initiate the shift at the exact moment when there is no load on the gears.  If you're still accelerating, the bike won't downshift because of the forces that the engine is still putting on the gears.  If you're decelerating, the transmission won't want to shift either because of the decelerating forces that are now being applied to the gears.  You want to find the exact moment between acceleration and deceleration when no external forces are being applied to the transmission to initiate your shift.

At the same time, during the fraction of a second that it takes to slip the transmission into the next lower gear, you need to bring the engine rpm up to match the rear tire rpm by quickly and sufficiently blipping the throttle.  Once again, you blip too much and the bike will lurch forward.  You blip too little and the rear will get squirmy again.

Now you've just performed your first clutchless downshift.  I'm sure there will be room for improvement, most notably the amount of how much to blip and how quickly to do it.

All this sounds a lot more complicated than it is once you try it.  To begin, try this exactly: from sixth gear at a fairly high rpm, downshift to 5th without braking.  You can easily practice this on the freeway.  Be aware of traffic around you and don't just suddenly slow down.

The 6-5 shift at high rpms is particularly easy.  After that, work your way down to 3-2.  You'll notice that you have to blip it a little more, because the spacing between 2nd and 3rd gear is bigger than between 5th and 6th so you have to make up a bigger difference in rear wheel and engine rpm.

Once you've mastered the 3-2 downshift, try multiple downshifts at the same time.  Then add the brake, and so on.

I hope this helps a little.  All of the above is for informational purposes only.  Don't believe anything you read on the internet.  Always apply common sense and sound judgment in everything you do.  If you hurt yourself or your bike, it's your own fault.

Have fun practicing,

-R.

I still find myself clutching around most of the track, but any open straightaways I clutchless upshift to try and save some time. Using my GPS laptimer I'm able to see how much longer I am decelerating (not on the gas), when I clutch shift. I'm able to drastically reduce this "off the gas" time by clutchless shifting.

No clutch up or down is no problem, but about 98% time I have two fingers on the brake and clutch, but then I never use more than that anyway. Clutch and brake, even on my 2002 620 never seemed very hard to me.

both in another thread here as well as in the press about Ducati clutches requiring a lot of effort to pull. In my experience they do not seem that way to me.

When clutchless upshifting on my s2r1k how come I find false neutral on occasions?  just not being as rough as i should on it? or what?

When clutchless upshifting on my s2r1k how come I find false neutral on occasions?  just not being as rough as i should on it? or what?

wellll i did it today.
autobahn coming out of onramp, upshift, 3-4-5-6 no clutch. sooooo smooth. awesome. got brave and tried downshift 6-5 when traffic was slow and light. easy enough. revs came up smooth. did notice you cannot short shift doing this though. bike was like uh uh no way.