Quote from: Christian on June 02, 2010, 09:24:15 AM
True, but the 5-spokes are specifically trying to be lightweight.
They could have used a different pattern that was even lighter than this but only 1 way. It is a bad design period, and probably would have never left an American design company drawing board due to the litigation it could create doing a 30 second DFMEA since it is a serviceable item and is 100% certain of being removed and installed wrong at some point.
Like I said above, this is at least the 3rd time I have seen this issue on the DMF, and we are
probably the cream of the crop for DIY'ers.
mitt
Quote from: Christian on June 02, 2010, 11:51:04 AM
Okay, MrIncredible - I concede. It's a bad design. You've made your point. :)
Just more curious than anything-I'm often on the design end of things-repair isn't typically a concern
Quote from: mitt on June 02, 2010, 12:56:45 PM
<snip>
Like I said above, this is at least the 3rd time I have seen this issue on the DMF, and we are probably the cream of the crop for DIY'ers.
mitt
maybe for the information available, but the skill of knowing exactly what you're looking at and applying that info is probably average for the population.
Quote from: Mojo S2R on May 13, 2010, 03:47:58 AM
[coffee] Sticking around for more of this great thread.
[bow_down]
really amazing odd failures, rear wheel one surprised me.. and be sure i will check rollers & belt on my next oil change.
we are debating how some think an engineeer made a bad design on putting:
4 holes that fit 4 pegs.
and that there are 4 slots in between.
Last time i checked when you put a wheel on a hub you line up the studs with the holes in the rim that fit it, maybe that is TOO difficult for most to realize but hey i could be wrong.
what we need is engineers to DO THEIR JOB and put INSTRUCTIONS on ALL PARTS on how to assemble EVERYTHING. That way this would have never happened. neither would any other malfunction of assembly, because we all know that everyone reads directions. [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: ducpainter on June 02, 2010, 01:22:57 PM
maybe for the information available, but the skill of knowing exactly what you're looking at and applying that info is probably average for the population.
Really? In my world of bike friends, I would put them below average in mechanical skills to what I see posted in tech.
mitt
Quote from: sbrguy on June 02, 2010, 02:04:08 PM
Last time i checked when you put a wheel on a hub you line up the studs with the holes in the rim that fit it, maybe that is TOO difficult for most to realize but hey i could be wrong.
So, you have never made a mistake then right? Never had a bad day, or were distracted by something / someone while working? Must be nice.
Also, just think how fun life would be if every thing we engineers designed could be assembled wrong - might take an hour to do something basic like connect a monitor cable if you had to pin out every wire between devices.
How many times have we seen the conical spacer for dss monsters put in wrong on here? Another case were it is easy to do, but hard to detect it is wrong until bad things happen.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on June 02, 2010, 02:30:44 PM
Really? In my world of bike friends, I would put them below average in mechanical skills to what I see posted in tech.
mitt
I think so.
There are many more people here that don't have skills than there are that do IMO.
The people that have experience seem to have lots of it. That is a bit unusual I think.
Maybe we're saying the same thing...just different. ;D
Quote from: mitt on June 02, 2010, 02:38:32 PM
So, you have never made a mistake then right? Never had a bad day, or were distracted by something / someone while working? Must be nice.
Also, just think how fun life would be if every thing we engineers designed could be assembled wrong - might take an hour to do something basic like connect a monitor cable if you had to pin out every wire between devices.
How many times have we seen the conical spacer for dss monsters put in wrong on here? Another case were it is easy to do, but hard to detect it is wrong until bad things happen.
mitt
ok so if i have this right, you want engineers to basically make everything idiot proof.
i can agree with that 100%, you are right.
just put instructions on EVERY SINGLE PART on how it is supposed to be used and assembled. That way everyone can read it and put it together correctly and also someone "can't have a bad day and mess up" because the instructions are always there and can't ever say they "didn't know or forgot".
because we have already established that putting a connection with 4 pegs into 4 round holes when there are "only" 4 round holes to put the pegs in is an obviously bad design.
Quote from: sbrguy on June 02, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
because we have already established that putting a connection with 4 pegs into 4 round holes when there are "only" 4 round holes to put the pegs in is an obviously bad design.
There are 8 holes to put four pegs into. Only one way is right, but nothing prevents you from doing it wrong.
That right there is a poor design.
How many engineers need to state this to make you happy?
Quote from: MrIncredible on June 02, 2010, 05:06:45 PM
There are 8 holes to put four pegs into. Only one way is right, but nothing prevents you from doing it wrong.
That right there is a poor design.
How many engineers need to state this to make you happy?
I'm a lowly painter...
and I think it's a dogshit design.
Does that count?
the design might not be perfect, but the user gets all the blame for not caring to do it correctly. It's an easy error to make, but equally easy to avoid
Quote from: sbrguy on June 02, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
ok so if i have this right, you want engineers to basically make everything idiot proof.
Only if it is easy to do without sacrificing some critical functionality or adding too much complexity or cost.
Quote from: sbrguy on June 02, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
just put instructions on EVERY SINGLE PART on how it is supposed to be used and assembled. That way everyone can read it and put it together correctly and also someone "can't have a bad day and mess up" because the instructions are always there and can't ever say they "didn't know or forgot".
How many languages? I am not sure where the logic is with instructions. If things "fall into place", no instructions needed.
I might cut out all this off topic BS into a new thread since this one was so good before we shat in it.
mitt
Quote from: sbrguy on June 02, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
ok so if i have this right, you want engineers to basically make everything idiot proof.
i can agree with that 100%, you are right.
just put instructions on EVERY SINGLE PART on how it is supposed to be used and assembled. That way everyone can read it and put it together correctly and also someone "can't have a bad day and mess up" because the instructions are always there and can't ever say they "didn't know or forgot".
because we have already established that putting a connection with 4 pegs into 4 round holes when there are "only" 4 round holes to put the pegs in is an obviously bad design.
Where do you get your arguments from?
No one said anything about idiot proof-that assembly could be redesigned at minimal cost to prevent this from happening, ever.
Instructions are moot-clearly the person assembling it knew where the wheel had to go, and mounted it wrong, because mounting it wrong was easy to do, which is the core of the issue.
I'm not sure the topic is even debatable.
I still think that the four post, four hole design - while not technically idiot proof - is a reasonable one.
Ducatis are pretty straightforward, but there are certain things that one needs to pay attention to when working on them. Many folks know that valve adjustments, for example, can be tricky. There's a lot of patience required when working on these bikes and some of the procedures are more of an art form than a science. I think that's part of the appeal.
I'd rather my wheel be as light as possible and have a margin of error for improper install.
This would not add any weight.
Wouldnt it be easier if you just made those 4 slots slightly smaller? You gain what maybe an oz or 2 of weight? And its not like your trying to shave a shitton of weight. your using a cast wheel.
Is the forged SSS wheels designed the same way? if they are and you wanted them to be uniform, why couldnt you just jam 1 rubber stop in there?
...or make a wheel with 8 to 12 round holes (no "slotted holes") rather than just the 4 round holes. That way, no matter how it's mounted, it's still right, and still not too much solid material left over...for the weight conscious.
All in all, it doesn't really matter at this point, what's done is done.
Don't FUBAR it on installation, be attentive to anything odd going on with the bike, and all should be good.
Usually when it's mounted wrong, there are some signs...such as the knocking noise upon first acceleration/braking.
More of a generalization than a comment specifically to this issue, but "idiot-proof" is impossible.
"Idiot-resistant" is possible.
There's some fundamental design issues that have been touched on, but bear analysis IMO.
One is the frequency/possibility of a particular operation.
Along with that is the expected skill level of the person performing the operation.
As a first example, unlocking the seat.
During the life of the motorcycle, it's certainly going to get done, and done by the owner.
Opposite end of the spectrum, adjusting the shims to correctly preload the crankshaft bearings.
During the life of the motorcycle, chances are low that it'll ever be done at all, and chances even lower that it'll be the owner doing it.
IMO, the rear wheel installation is *way* closer to unlocking the seat than shimming the crank.
So definitely needs more of the one-way-only assembly.
or you can just not put any pins at all and let it rotate, less resistance = more power.
We should get Shervin RRR's opinion on this.
i like speed dogs answer.
though its too late...actually how is the design on the 1098 and the new 796 and 1100? is the deisng the same way?
Quote from: DarkStaR on June 02, 2010, 07:26:36 PM
...or make a wheel with 8 to 12 round holes (no "slotted holes") rather than just the 4 round holes. That way, no matter how it's mounted, it's still right, and still not too much solid material left over...for the weight conscious.
That was exactly my thought as wheel. Put a dozen holes in the hub, so the wheel could go on in any 30 degree orientation.
Or, even make the slots through holes instead of blind holes, so you could detect easier the pins in the wrong location.
mitt
While i understand and respect the premise of this argument i still say it's designed fine. As someone else said, 4 pegs and 4 round holes with 4 other round huge freakn' slots. I mean it's a wheel for freak sake, why would you put in slots? I mean didn't we all learn as children with building blocks: round goes into round, square into square?
Now i am no engineer lover, i hate most in fact because when engineers design stuff for automotive applications, most of the time they don't take into account what the mechanic has to go through to do some kind of replacement and something that should take an hour turns into 2 or more for some dumb design. However in this case with the wheel, i would say it doesn't count.
Can you make a mistake and put it in the slots instead of the holes? Sure, but either way whether you are a seasoned mechanic, a DIYer, or a first timer if you do it i'm still going to call you a moron LOL.
So lemme get this straight.
Quote from: jim_0068 on June 03, 2010, 07:31:08 AM
While i understand and respect the premise of this argument i still say it's designed fine. As someone else said, 4 pegs and 4 round holes with 4 other round huge freakn' slots. I mean it's a wheel for freak sake, why would you put in slots? I mean didn't we all learn as children with building blocks: round goes into round, square into square?
This design is fine despite no one having taken into account how to make it more friendly to those who may need to work on it.
Quote from: jim_0068 on June 03, 2010, 07:31:08 AM
Now i am no engineer lover, i hate most in fact because when engineers design stuff for automotive applications, most of the time they don't take into account what the mechanic has to go through to do some kind of replacement and something that should take an hour turns into 2 or more for some dumb design. However in this case with the wheel, i would say it doesn't count.
Yet all
other instances when no one takes into account how to make things more friendly to those who may need to work on them are
not okay.
Well, I'm an engineer...and I don't think it is a bad design. [coffee]
I've removed my wheels countless times, and have always lined up the pins and holes when re-installing. It's dead obvious that is what needs to be done...and I'm no mechanic.
That said, it would be easy to fix like others have said...but you can't call it a bad design because the engineer failed to account for every single instance of stupidity of others. Ducati engineers probably design their bikes to be worked on by certified Ducati mechanics...not some moron in their garage (like me :P).
Quote from: jim_0068 on June 03, 2010, 07:31:08 AM
Now i am no engineer lover, i hate most in fact because when engineers design stuff for automotive applications, most of the time they don't take into account what the mechanic has to go through to do some kind of replacement and something that should take an hour turns into 2 or more for some dumb design. However in this case with the wheel, i would say it doesn't count.
FYI...engineering designs are often controlled by bean counters...or they at least have heavy input.
Bean counters care about production costs first...then they care about maintenance costs (maybe).
If the engineer can design a part that can be fabricated and installed (originally) cheaper...then they will usually be directed to do so. So what if it takes twice as long to replace or perform maintenance on that part down the road. Initial production costs are what matters. Besides...if it takes twice as long to fix, then that's twice as much the factory mechanic can charge the buyer...more money for the auto company/dealer! [thumbsup] Sure, it backfires during the warranty period...but afterwards it's all just more profit.
Bean counters get more say.
I've had a flawless fix to a known product with issues shot down because it added a five cents per item.
I passed those savings on to you.
Quote from: MrIncredible on June 03, 2010, 09:24:03 AM
Bean counters get more say.
I've had a flawless fix to a known product with issues shot down because it added a five cents per item.
I passed those savings on to you.
Bean counters definitely get more say in automotive design.
It's all about production cost. They don't give a rats ass about maintenance.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 03, 2010, 10:09:22 AM
Bean counters definitely get more say in automotive design.
It's all about production cost. They don't give a rats ass about maintenance.
In all honesty, neither do I.
No one buys it because it's easy for their mechanic to work on.
I ain't working on it either. :D
Quote from: MrIncredible on June 03, 2010, 12:45:53 PM
In all honesty, neither do I.
No one buys it because it's easy for their mechanic to work on.
I ain't working on it either. :D
For an extra $.50...
they could put a dealio on a dashboard to make it flip over to work on.
I hate all you mothermake the beast with two backsing pencil pushers.
Monday will come for you guys. ;D
why not offset a pin?
kinda like on a flywheel
Quote from: Mother on June 05, 2010, 10:49:39 PM
why not offset a pin?
kinda like on a flywheel
Because then it would be too easy to do it right.
I believe no matter how "foolproof" or "safe" the industry makes the assembly or operation of a machine, some people will never get it! What seems like a totally simple operation to some is very confusing to others, If You don't understand simple mechanics, which Motorcycles are, than You pay Your tuition to learn like everything else. Attention to detail, focus, and patiance are standard fare. If You can't "get it", take the machine to a competant mechanic. Don,t create a "Shervin time bomb" please!!! As said "If You understand, the World is the way that It is, if You don't understand, the World is the way that It is" some people never understand...
Uggh,
There are 3 pages now that are a spin off from another thread complaining about having to line up the holes in the back of the wheels with the posts on the hub? Must have been a slow day for the lot of you.
I don't know how many of you own different bikes, and have to take care of other people's bikes, but in my garage are 5 bikes. 2 are SSS bikes, two are DSS bikes, and one is a shaft drive DSS bike. Then I have all my other friend's bikes to work on when they come by, which also includes belt drives, and everything listed above.
So, some of you have complained about the slots that are cut out between the stud holes in the SSS wheels?
Called it bad design, and think that the designer and engineer and bean counter involved in the design should be tarred, feather, pistol whipped, texas chili bowled, and executed because they put slots between peg holes?
Ummn...
How hard is it to locate the hole with your finger tip, and keep it aligned until you slide the wheel back onto the hub?
Its not.
Just because someone was (please pick one) too inexperienced/too rushed/too drunk/too distracted/too lazy/too stupid to locate the hole with their finger tip, and align the wheel properly, causing damage to the bike, you think its a design flaw?
I've been working on motorcycles for about 23 years now.
Its NOT a design flaw.
Its a design.
Some of you have faulty sense's of superiority and entitlement.
You might want to get those adjusted before life smacks you hard again, sometime in the near future.
BC.
Quote from: Bladecutter on June 06, 2010, 09:22:26 AM
Uggh,
There are 3 pages now that are a spin off from another thread complaining about having to line up the holes in the back of the wheels with the posts on the hub? Must have been a slow day for the lot of you.
I don't know how many of you own different bikes, and have to take care of other people's bikes, but in my garage are 5 bikes. 2 are SSS bikes, two are DSS bikes, and one is a shaft drive DSS bike. Then I have all my other friend's bikes to work on when they come by, which also includes belt drives, and everything listed above.
So, some of you have complained about the slots that are cut out between the stud holes in the SSS wheels?
Called it bad design, and think that the designer and engineer and bean counter involved in the design should be tarred, feather, pistol whipped, texas chili bowled, and executed because they put slots between peg holes?
Ummn...
How hard is it to locate the hole with your finger tip, and keep it aligned until you slide the wheel back onto the hub?
Its not.
Just because someone was (please pick one) too inexperienced/too rushed/too drunk/too distracted/too lazy/too stupid to locate the hole with their finger tip, and align the wheel properly, causing damage to the bike, you think its a design flaw?
I've been working on motorcycles for about 23 years now.
Its NOT a design flaw.
Its a design.
Some of you have faulty sense's of superiority and entitlement.
You might want to get those adjusted before life smacks you hard again, sometime in the near future.
BC.
Sheesh...
Someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed?
Where does the whole schtick about entitlement come from?
Maybe you need a nap.
It is a design.
It could be better design.
We all have an opinion.
Quote from: Bladecutter on June 06, 2010, 09:22:26 AM
Uggh,
There are 3 pages now that are a spin off from another thread complaining about having to line up the holes in the back of the wheels with the posts on the hub? Must have been a slow day for the lot of you.
I don't know how many of you own different bikes, and have to take care of other people's bikes, but in my garage are 5 bikes. 2 are SSS bikes, two are DSS bikes, and one is a shaft drive DSS bike. Then I have all my other friend's bikes to work on when they come by, which also includes belt drives, and everything listed above.
So, some of you have complained about the slots that are cut out between the stud holes in the SSS wheels?
Called it bad design, and think that the designer and engineer and bean counter involved in the design should be tarred, feather, pistol whipped, texas chili bowled, and executed because they put slots between peg holes?
Ummn...
How hard is it to locate the hole with your finger tip, and keep it aligned until you slide the wheel back onto the hub?
Its not.
Just because someone was (please pick one) too inexperienced/too rushed/too drunk/too distracted/too lazy/too stupid to locate the hole with their finger tip, and align the wheel properly, causing damage to the bike, you think its a design flaw?
I've been working on motorcycles for about 23 years now.
Its NOT a design flaw.
Its a design.
Some of you have faulty sense's of superiority and entitlement.
You might want to get those adjusted before life smacks you hard again, sometime in the near future.
BC.
About as useful as pregnant doging about the location of the air temp sensor, no?
It's NOT a design flaw.
It's a design.
:D
Quote from: Bladecutter on November 23, 2009, 10:55:23 AM
Yes, I'm one of the one's who has pregnant doged on here about the stupid location for the air temperature sensor on the 696 and the Monster 1100. I was also asking if anyone else could ride their bike and confirm if their temp reading was way out of kilter, but no one ever did respond to that request.
The location of the air temp sensor is in fact ridiculous since they are using it to determine the air temp reading that the users would look at to see what the air temp is. If it was solely for the computer use, then shouldn't it be in the air box, where it can't get heated up by the engine temperature?
Yes, I agree that they should either remove that air temp feature, or have a proper sensor for that information source, like they have on every other model of bike they have sold in the past.
I'm half tempted to buy one of those sensors, and place it in a different location, and see what results I get.
Typically, the sensor on other Ducati's is located under the upper triple.
BC.
You might benefit from reading this:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=10430.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=10430.0)
Not all knowledge is common.
Though I try not to call people retarded for not knowing something I do, unless they ask for it.
Quote from: MrIncredible on June 06, 2010, 11:58:11 AM
You might benefit from reading this:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=10430.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=10430.0)
Not all knowledge is common.
Though I try not to call people retarded for not knowing something I do, unless they ask for it.
[laugh] , I forgot about that thread, and me posting in it.
P.S. I hate all of you. [cheeky]
Quote from: Bladecutter on June 06, 2010, 09:22:26 AM
Uggh...
<words>
BC.
Both bikes that I have seen
first hand
damaged because of this mistake
were worked on by factory techs
maybe you can give a seminar about their entitlement
and
fuel it with your superiority
Quote from: Bladecutter on June 06, 2010, 09:22:26 AM
Uggh,
e of you have faulty sense's of superiority and entitlement.
You might want to get those adjusted before life smacks you hard again, sometime in the near future.
BC.
Can you walk on water too?
mitt
First time I had my rear tire changed at the local Ducati dealer, that weekend I took the wheel off to change my rear brake pads
to something better (And a complete brake bleed) I noticed that the pegs were in the slots and not the holes.
I did the work I needed to do and I was going to put the wheel back how I found it, but I noticed the pegs matched the holes, so
I lined it back up with the 4 holes instead. seemed logical to me.
But there is a classic case of someone who should have known better (A Ducati Dealer) and even they managed to screw it up!
Mind you, this is the same mechanic who when reinstalling a rear wheel back on a 916 left out the spacer/shim between the
wheel and the securing nut! :o
3 days later the wheel fell off, thankfully the owner felt it was going and managed to get to the side of the road and save his bike
from falling over, just in time to watch his rear wheel roll on down the road past him.
New wheel, new hub and Pins, new rear brake disc and caliper, and to this day I will never understand, the owner thought it was funny!
he came in with a smile on his face! (I was working at the dealer at this stage) He had a laugh, left it with us while I scoured the country
for the parts to get the bike repaired as fast as we could. 2 weeks later he came back, picked up his pride and joy and again rode away
with a smile on his face. He even suggested we not fire the Mechanic who made the mistake! (But the mechanic was already gone by this
stage, he had sunk a customers jet ski a week earlier, so this was the final straw)
Sorry bit off topic there. [laugh]
Your story further supports my theory that the dude who messed up the wheel was a monkey, and shouldn't be fixing anything. :)