Ducati Monster Forum

I wonder if someone can help me with this problem – bit of a longish story, but I will try to get to the nub of it quickly (you need the background first):
 First of all, I should point out that I am in Thailand. There is only one dealer in Bangkok.

I alluded to a problem on the Reflashed ECU thread...now here's the update....

Bike not running smooth - and ALSO misfires badly after washing – or when it starts raining significantly – gets wet.

Background:

2006 S2R1K
35,000 km
Full Arrow, open box, O2 disconnected.
All service items, plugs included are OK. Leads – not sure – seem OK.

Had engine heads removed etc for cleaning at 20,000km – Ok after that – symptoms have developed since around 25,000km.

Had bike in around 25,000 km for check – clear fault on rear coil, reset TPS, check TB balance – seemed OK since then until 30,000 km ish.

Main symptom  - runs rough – low throttle percentage – surging. And misfires a lot when wet – clears when bike hot/water evaporates, but still runs rough.

Duc mech checks bike -

Shows faults on both coils – says fault to ground or faulty ECU.According to them, they checked the coils and they were OK.

Cannot get vacuum reading at idle with carbtune on front cylinder to balance TB. At mid RPM we get signal – but no way to balance with rear.

Rear seems ok. Gives reading at idle.

Mech says cannot be fault with both coils/wiring – likely faulty ECU – can’t check it.
Also tells me forward intake manifold has a crack/ leak in it.

I repair gasket seal and check forward manifold – no leak.

I also buy new DP ecu.

Install – bike feels better to me by seat of pants – but still rough at low throttle.

Check at Duc – still no vacuum except higher revs on forward manifold with carbtune. Rear still OK.

Check for faults with DDS shows STILL faults with both coils. So ECU not problem.

Mech tells me that it must be to do with the coils/wiring – and they will need to check it – why not do this in the first place?

Anyone got some thoughts on this.

I did also find some rat dung on the bike – have since dealt with the vermin – have looked for possible wiring issues due to this, can’t see any – where should I be looking for this if it is associated with both coils? The main harness where the coils enter into looks intact.

How do we check coils for spark/power?

I recently replaced battery (and plugs) too – at same time that I started to source the replacement parts  - ECU and manifold – 3 weeks ago.

Cheerand thanks in advance for any advice..

The fact that it misfires and runs badly when it gets wet or a wash is a sign there's an issue somewhere with wiring or the coils.. i would say maybe there is a bare or badly earthed wire somewhere which may be arcing/shorting when wet?? you maybe need to strip the bike down a little and start having a good hard look at the wiring loom...

Ok - yes, that is the step now proposed by the dealer - but would this also be contributing to the poor vacuum at the intake manifold - is that related possibly to poor spark/bad earth/short or whatever?

I'm guessjng that I should start with following the wire that leads from the coil/s back into the harness...?

Cheers,

Mmmmm smells like a short of some kind.

A multimeter could be useful with your search

The only advice I can give you with regards to finding it is check ALL wires/looms which run along / over each other and also wires that have contact with anything metallic.
Have any fuses blown during the course of your mishap?

good luck!

No - no fuses blown.

Is there a way to get into the loom without destroying the outer housing/s? Any tips there?

With the multimeter, what do I do and what am I looking for?

I have the workshop manual - do I connect it to wires, with the ignition on (does bike need to be running?) and check the values according to a predefined table?

Cheers,

who is the mechanic?? if you're in sydney, i would suggest maybe take it to D Moto and let George or Shaun check it out, doesn't sound like a simple issue...

Hmmm ozducati he said he was in thailand

sorry, missed that bit..... in that case, i think you need to get the dealer to test the coils i think..

hmm I think the problem lies with the open air box - and the fact that it runs rough when washed and/or wet raining.  Sounds to me like water is getting down in the air box and pooling there.  You may find that water is getting in to the top of the cylinders.  When the bike has been washed or wet I would lift the tank and see how much water is in the air box.  If it looks totally dry then move on to coils, or even faulty or dirty injectors.  Oh I am assuming fuel filter is clean/replaced recently and there is no water in the tank either....

Just my 2cents!  [thumbsup]

Mmmmmm I'm tipping the cause is head related causing your grief. I come to this because you mention the vacume issue when balancing the throttle bodies. Same too for the water issue. See if your spark plugs look damp when the water issue comes about. Any steam comming from the exhaust when the mis fire water problem occurs?

One way to find the water issue is get the bike running where it is running hot and dry, get a spray bottle of water and start spraying areas of the engine and wiring.

Good luck! [thumbsup]  

I would do a compression test on both cyls as a quick check to see if there is a mechanical issue with the front cyl low vac.  Perhaps leak down test if comp down at all.  If this checks out you can be sure its electrical.  Check coils out by swapping front for rear to see if symptoms transfer to the other cylinder.  Its unlikely that its coils as they tend to break down under load as opposed to idle (but still not impossible) Water in the fuel is a distinct possibility

A check with the gas analyser of both cylinders CO will indicate if the front cyl is too lean and could be the result of an air leak.

These simple tests should narrow things down a bit...

Thanks guys - this kinda confirms my thinking - that is is somehow either related to the compression/engine seal or wiring/electricals - or both.

About the fuel and air - I'm always very careful about getting water in the airbox when washing - I cover the box with a shower/hair cap thing, and always check and dry it after washing and before drying ride. Prob still occurs.

About fuel - filter was replaced recently - and because it clears when the bike gets hot (even though it still runs rounghish - the misfire goes away) - I don't think it is that.

I hope i can get this in to the dealer tomorrow so they can go over it - i will ask them first to do a simplp compression test to rule the mechanical out, then let them go after the wiring.

Will post back when and if I get a fix.

Cheers,

+1 on the front head mechanical issue.  had very similar problems related to a bent valve and lack of vacuum.

wow. But any issues related to the wet?
You know, i've read about the valve guide issues on early 2 spark engines.
I raised this with the dealer who said that they were aware of viat but my bike being a later model- it's actually around last quarter 2006 production, had viat issue addressed already. Not sure if this is true or not.
These guys seem to make their own hypotheses and believe them without testing them first. They rarely test ride a bike after 'fixing' it....ho-hum.
Bike is booked in for fri. So i guess i have tomorrow to look at wiring myself...
I won't charge them for that...:)

..ok..spoke to the Jedi Masters (Shaun and George at Dmoto), here is their feedback; " 1) re-connect the oxy sensors. 2) Check the coils earths, if possible, run them down to the starter motor bolt. 3) re-check the valve clearances. 4) properly balance the co and TPS items. 4) disconnect and re-connect all main plugs especially the TPS plug, treat with WD 40." good luck. aunty mal. p.s. contact the Ducati Jedi at dmoto@optusnet.com.au 

Pm'd you mate - thanks a lot for the great help. Just a query about the O2 sensor - now running DP ECU - so is this necessary?

Cheers!!

Here's an update for you on progress - and I use that term very loosely.

Finally, they checked the compression - front clinder was only half what it should be. Rear OK. Not enough valve clearance - some burned residue around seat and valve - but not ruined - cleaned, re-installed, and now the throttle bodies can be adjusted - thank god for that.

However, there is still the fault on BOTH coils - according to the DDS. TPS has been re-set - bike is running "better" but not as smooth as I believe is should be if the electrical gremlin is found out and eliminated.

The bike does not hold a rock steady idle - it hunts up and down a bit - more when it's cold - I looked at the DDS when they checked the TPS reset etc - it was around 1250 - up and down a bit from there, but when i ride, it's a bit more erratic than that. Low throttle openings are a bit rough/jerky - and she is popping a bit on decelleration.

To me, it feels like it is sending erratic spark.

The mech at Ducati here has now basically said he has NFI about what to do - and will go look at some "bulletins" from Italy - and see if he can think of anything else.

I still don't know if he has really checked all the electrics running directly in and around the coils - I looked at the wiring set-up myself - It seems like the ground for the coils/ecu - is all linkned to the main engine ground - which grounds behind the oil breather on the rear of the right side crank case. this looks ok to me.

I guess I will need to get at it, make  sure that it is clean and solid - but it looks it - and surely they would have done this?


But then, I asked them three weeks ago to check the front compression.

Could it be to do with anything like the airpressure sensor - any more tips?

I went for a ride the other day - seemed OK- but a littel rough as mentioned - I did also get some rai, and the bike contuinued to run OK - unlike previously - but again, this is unconclusive - not sure why - if the electrical problem persists, then why has the mechanical fix improved the wet-weather issues?

This is driving me absolutely nuts.

I'm very close to selling it and buying a used FZ1.

What was CO percentage set at when idling? - it could be a bit too lean, was the 02 sensor reconnected? .  Misfiring, backfiring and popping on the over run can often be recorded as "coil faults" in th ecu, so don't get too carried away with the idea that both coils/earths are faulty.

I 

To set the CO2 percentage - do we need to insert sniffers to the mid-pipes?
If so, they did not do this...

...there is no o2 sensor anymore - the set up is with DP ecu, Arrow full system.

Cheers,

Grant.

- just spoke to the Duc Mech - he says - "to adjust the CO2, we play with the air bleeds, which then compromises the balance of the Throttle Bodies - and the DDS system does not have a mixture trim adjustment, but the old one (Mathesis) may do - and will check"

(can anyone confirm this - and if so, then should I wind in the air - bleeds by a quarter turn or so each - assuming they need even adjustments now - and see how that goes?)Right now, I have borrowed a friends Technoresearch software and cables. I'm going to hook that up and confirm the fault/s - see also if there is adjustment for trim, then either adjust the air bleeds and/or start looking to any ground/shorts - and start re-testing myself.

Hi GraGra, yes they adjust the idle mixture through the air bleed screws on each throttle body. I too have full Arrow exhaust and you will notice the colour of the exhaust pipes will vary from each pipe if they are out of tune. You will more than likely only need to adjust one throttle body to match the other cylinder but be wary that you should have the rear cylinder richer as it gets hotter due to less air circulating around the cylinder compared to the front. i recently found my bike was a bit grumpy so I had a play and now the bike runs sweet. I did notice after doing a long down hill run a few days ago I noticed one pipe was black and the other pipe was a nice dark biscuit colour so a bit more work is needed. Also note the servo motor controls the idle speed so you have no control of that adjustment.

Rob

I can't offer any help or insight, but I wish you luck.

Just pointing out the obvious - this is bad Karma payback for typing DML in the heading ;)

USA model has an idle air servo.

Not sure if your Aussie S2R1k has it. ?

i would be looking for a dyno for some testing and fuel mixtures

Yep got that servo too!

What other models have the servo?

FARRRRKKK - you may be right....I hope I can ammend that pronto!!!

I will have some more details on this tomorrow...stay tuned...(or untuned, as the case may be..)

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1241.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1241.0)   [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] ;D [thumbsup]

Best wishes for your problem solving [moto]

thinking about this today

if you had insufficient clearance enough to cause low compression i would be seriously looking at a leaking valve

it will give the idle symptons you describe

You are right - read post above...and below..

Cheers...

Ok – ready? Here’s the latest….

(quick re-cap – front cylinder valves were out, and yes, some deposits causing seat issues – that is fixed, and front compression is fine…still lingering coil faults, and rough running…)

Last night, I used the Technoresearch tool/software to inspect the bike myself.

Sure enough, the coil faults throw up – but more detail than the DDS – it says “Charge below threshold” on each coil, and it also says “Open Circuit”.

So, before I do anything else, I then check out the Fuel Trim setting.

(a couple of guys mentioned that the symptoms sounded like it was running lean, and that this can sometime throw coil faults – but I’m not sure how..???)

It is at ZERO,understandably. So I tweak it – up to and beyond 30 – until the bike starts to stumble – then back to 15 and set it there – seems like a happy idle.

(I tried it in negative “lean” – and the idle was up and down like a yo-yo)

Bike is cold, by the way – 40-50 degrees.

Then I Clear the faults, reset the TPS, start it again, check the trim – still at 15, so that’s good, I recheck for faults, and nothing comes up. I have a scotch, watch a couple of episodes of “Californication”, make a booty call and go to bed.

This morning I go for a ride. Bike starts well, holds a nice idle, and the second I pull away, I can feel the difference – it is AMAZINGLY SMOOTH, holds an easy throttle in first while cold – 2,500- 3,500 RPM, warms up flawlessly (no funky idling) – is super mild and smooth on small throttle openings, is a joy to ride in traffic, and pulls really well and smooth.

I can get on the throttle earlier when exiting corners and be more aggressive in general without the jerky, snatchy response.
I can on and off the throttle in first without the need to feather the clutch like before.

Oh, and the bike also sounds different. A lower, deeper smoother thrumming sound – zero popping – the occasional burble, but no strong pops – it’s just smooth up and down through the rev range and on hard over runs, downshifts it’s fine. WOW.

So, I come back home – bike’s hot – 110 degrees, I let it cool and I test again.

Faults come up again. I clear them, they come up again, and again, and again.

So it seems the faults only appear when the bike is Warmed up….I will test this theory again tomorrow when the bike is cold.

I adjust the trim slightly up to 17 (re-set TPS), and it seems slightly more stable, although no real issues at 15 – I will test it at 17 again tomorrow.

Now, something else to mention… I also tested the function of the circuits for the coils, injectors etc – I could hear a hissing or clicking sound when I checked all of these.

When I checked the stepper motor, there was no noise. I wonder if there should be, and if this could be at all related to the coil fault issue? I’m using the DP ECU – does this still operate the stepper motor?

In summary, I guess the key point is…

…if bike seems to be running well, should I continue to hunt the devilish coil faults – or are they just “one of those random things”?

If I could get an exhaust sniffer and carbtune, I could finish the set up properly to a tee, and then live with the coil fault nemesis...just like Nicholson in the movie “Pledge” where he continues to hunt to serial killer, even though unbeknownst to him, the killer met with an untimely end himself.

Thoughts..?

Sound like your almost there GraGra! [thumbsup]

The stepper motor does make a small noise when it adjusts the idle.

Rob

Even with DP ECU? You know the "hissing" sound I'm talking about? Is that the type of sound you mean? I mean, the coils made hissing sounds, as did the fuel pump, the injectors made clicking sounds, the stepper was silent....I wonder if this coule be the make the beast with two backs up????

How did the booty call work out?

BTW - glad you're getting some results. I wish I had the insight to be of any help. I'll shut up soon.

Balanced the body(s), checked for a spark, gave her a bit more fuel, fired her up and she was ready to go.... [evil]

If ever you're over here, let me know. There's plenty of tuning opportunities. ;)

If you have access to a gas analyser, set both cyls around 5% CO at idle.

The valve clearances on the front cylinder must have been way out to drop compression like it did - more likely the cam belt was fitted one tooth out?

Anyway alls well that ends well - ride the wheels off the thing!

I will try to get access to one of these and a carbtune unit.

ANy tips onosetting up CO2 - I mean, let's say I have adjusted the fuel trim already - and the TB's have been balanced - should I just adjust the trim to the 5% level (another helpful person also suggested the range of 4-6%, so this is good and consistent) - or should I first back off the trim, see what I get by adjusting the air bleeds - and maybe get the TB balance out of whack a bit, then go to the fuel trim last?

I mean, what's the best sequence to do this?

Cheers,

I coulda sworn Brad Black had a procedure documented over on his site:

http://www.bikeboy.org/performance.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/performance.html)

But now I can't find it.  :P
 

I just found a really good write up on the whole procedure, here:

http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=9ae519ee87248dede3fb339b46e5fd19&t=9263&page=2 (http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=9ae519ee87248dede3fb339b46e5fd19&t=9263&page=2)

So for me, the next step is to get my mits on an exhaust gas analyser, set the proper fuel trim at the leanest pipe using the Technoresearch tool, then tweak the air bleed screw for the other cylinder, as required.

Now...about those coil faults, anyone know how to test the health of a coil???

I think this might be it....

http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html)

Ok - the latest on this - take bike out today for a good run, and I can tell fairly quickly all is not exactly right.

Bike starts OK - but feels like there's some sort of miusfire or weak spark. Gets progressively worse through the ride - especially at lower RPM.

Get back home, pull the front plug lead - bike stalls.

Pull the rear lead, bike continues to run.

I stop bike, first pull front plugs, one by one, re-connect leads, earht plug and start bike.

Won't start with only one front plug in,

Will start with only one rear plug in.

Does this likely point to a coil breakdown when the bike is warm/hot - and if so, does this mean the front or rear coil is the weak one? My instinctive answer is front - but when I think about it, it should be the rear - cos the bike fires when the rear plug is removed - but won't when the front one is.

I doubt that a fueling or TB balance issue could cause this type of dramatic effect - correct?

Any thoughts?

PS - condition of the rear plugs was considerably more sooty looking than the front.

Hi Gra gra,

Just to clarify, the spark plug on the belt side of the heads is fired on the exhaust stroke to remove any unburnt fuel. Sounds like you have a stuffed plug due to the mixture being too rich or something similar. If the plugs were not firing you would have a wet plug.

Rob

Just thought I'd put the final result up here.

Turns out the bike had poorly adjusted valves, which led to compression issue, and then also badly adjusted throttle bodies.

The coil faults still show up, but the bike runs fine. I guess it's just one of those quirks. It's a Clayton's Fault - the fault you have when you're not really having a fault.

Cheers...

Great to have a result finally. [thumbsup]

Great that you've got a result.
Sounds familiar the Claytons problem did it myself for a couple of months early this year.