Ducati Monster Forum

I'd be fascinated to know whether people are aware of him, and if so what their opinion of him is.

(Note: I can imagine this getting heated and robust discussion going, remember to avoid personal attacks on other members... By all means attck their arguments, but keep an appropriate level of respect for each other. Thanks!)

Curious-big

[edit: added "Meh" option. Decided against adding the traditional "bewbies" one.)

Neither here nor there with me.  :P

Some of his 'Leaks' are facts we already know.

Berlusconi a sleaze bag, yep, knew that.  ;)

Boobies?  ;D

I voted villain.  I am amazed he hasn't had an "accident" yet.  Wait until he spills the beans on the Kremlin, and then he will wish he was in jail...



mitt

Is he the Wikileaks guy? 

I have mixed feelings about that...  I think certain things need to be made public, but as soon as it crosses the line and puts our national security and those who defend it into harms way, it's criminal and irresponsible.


Oh, and I didn't vote because there is no Boobies option!   :-*




[bacon]

Dunno who he is. Did a quick google search but didn't read enough to form an opinion. He looks like a weasel though.

His website "Wikileaks" has been using the Amazon server to get his information out.

Amazon just booted him off in the last couple of days.

Here's a good (but long) article on the guy.  Spoiler alert, he is a paranoid anarchist.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian)

The last couple pages deal with the ethical stuff.  Seems like he is willing to take some pretty questionable risks (posting social security numbers of soldiers along with other data, for example).  I vote paranoid anarchist of questionable ethics, boobies.

Also, if you get to the end of that article, I think Project G = Cablegate.

I voted meh...

I'm pretty sure there is some perspective involved here.

I'm also surprised at how difficult it seems to be to find our 'enemies'.

Quote from: humorless dp on December 02, 2010, 04:10:13 PM

I'm also surprised at how difficult it seems to be to find our 'enemies'.

well, in this case, the euro's apparently know exactly where he is but are refusing to pick him up on the outstanding warrant.

on one hand, i think his organization is doing something that our news outlets should be doing if they weren't spending all their time reporting on celebrity baby adoptions and philandering.

on the other, he is walking a very slippery slope.

regarding their previous big leak (the "collateral murder" trove), i don't think that's ultimately such a bad thing... whether the soldiers involved were right or wrong, the american public should be made very aware of what "war" actually is.

as it stands right now, and really since the first gulf war, all we get is this candy-coated depiction of what's going on over there.

furthermore, it seems that his organization was selective regarding what was released and scrubbed the released for, uh, inappropriate information. yeah, i know that's really a matter of perspective. that said, i do remember reading a followup from the government to the effect that "nothing released was damaging and, to their knowledge, nobody has been harmed as a result of the release".

i haven't finished reading through the recent "diplomatic" lode, but i don't entirely see the point of releasing this one... yet.

the "teased" bank release, however, is something i'm definitely looking forward to.

Quote from: mitt on December 02, 2010, 03:01:12 PM
I voted villain.  I am amazed he hasn't had an "accident" yet.  Wait until he spills the beans on the Kremlin, and then he will wish he was in jail...



mitt

YUP!

Quote from: derby on December 02, 2010, 04:33:28 PM
the "teased" bank release, however, is something i'm definitely looking forward to.

Yep, this caught my eye.

Quote from: il d00d on December 02, 2010, 03:45:40 PM
(posting social security numbers of soldiers along with other data, for example)

I'd be happy to put a round in his head for this alone.

Quote from: DRKWNG on December 02, 2010, 04:56:12 PM
I'd be happy to put a round in his head for this alone.

[laugh]  Get in line... ;)

Didn't recognize the name at first. Don't give a damn either way.

Quote from: kopfjäger on December 02, 2010, 04:59:59 PM
[laugh]  Get in line... ;)

Somehow I just knew you'd be the first to reply.   [thumbsup]

I figure if this loser has the info, then someone else has to have it as well. And this guy is publishing it freely for everyone to see so they can judge for themselves how the world governments operate ( quite like unruly fraternities with guns as it turns out) whereas anyone else who may have come across it could be using it for blackmail to get better business deals and whatnot.

Quote from: derby on December 02, 2010, 04:33:28 PM
well, in this case, the euro's apparently know exactly where he is but are refusing to pick him up on the outstanding warrant.

maybe we should just call the Mossad.

Quote from: derby on December 02, 2010, 04:33:28 PM


regarding their previous big leak (the "collateral murder" trove), i don't think that's ultimately such a bad thing... whether the soldiers involved were right or wrong, the american public should be made very aware of what "war" actually is.

Maybe more of them should be 'involved'...if you catch my drift.

Quote from: humorless dp on December 02, 2010, 05:43:10 PM
maybe we should just call the Mossad.

don't look at me..

If intelligence agencies knew he was collecting data, a smart bet would be to "leak" some good mis-information to this knucklehead and use him to get some work done.

The little feller that copied all those files should be tried for treason during wartime and hanged.

Reckless disregard for lives and for the interests of virtually every nation involved.
Villain, indeed.

Hero.

Why should all the secrets remain so?

Just because those in power would be embarrassed by them?

I voted villian because I think the guy is a dick

but

it's my paranoid opinion that if this guy had any really damaging information

and

the feds were truly worried about the information he had

he'd be dead already

It's more than this guy......it's the little prick that downloaded the stuff and passed it along.

Posing like he was listening to a Lady Gaga CD all the while dancing around and " downloading " on a blank disc while singing along  to a pretend Lady Gaga CD.

String um up by their balls.

That's what happens when some gay person in the Military gets " On the Rag."

Frontline does a pretty good job of exposing shit about our Gov.and the Military and Foreign Governments.

                                                             

                                                           "  We Can't Handle the TRUTH ! "

Quote from: The Bacon Junkie on December 02, 2010, 03:04:45 PM
Is he the Wikileaks guy?  

Some astounding revelations attributed to this guy. Latest release from wikileaks - and I'm prepared to go out an a limb and announce it right here and now - Bacon Junkie allegedly got a 999  :o.  I even know what colour it is/might be  :P.

Quote from: humorless dp on December 02, 2010, 05:43:10 PMmaybe we should just call the Mossad.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 07:25:38 PMdon't look at me..

לא ל×"או×'. כר×'יל אנחנו ננק×" למעל×"  Mossad? Mah zeh? Ani lo yaddir, besseda??!  Damn this keyboard... gotta get it fixed.

Quote from: WarrenJ on December 02, 2010, 08:37:17 PM
The little feller that copied all those files should be tried for treason during wartime and hanged.

Don't worry.  He's not really enjoying life at the moment.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 07:25:38 PM
don't look at me..

You have connections?  ;D

Quote from: DoubleEagle on December 03, 2010, 02:08:32 AM

That's what happens when some gay person in the Military gets " On the Rag."

you gotta be kidding me. What make the beast with two backsing planet do you live on, dude?

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 03, 2010, 03:05:26 AM
לא ל×"או×'. כר×'יל אנחנו ננק×" למעל×"  Mossad? Mah zeh? Ani lo yaddir, besseda??!  Damn this keyboard... gotta get it fixed.

כמו שאמרתי, לא קוראים לי.

אנו נתקשר אליך.

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 04:28:01 AM
You have connections?  ;D

it's a small place, everyone knows everyone..

מצוין ×"×™×"×™×" שלי  [evil]  ;)

all I can say...there should be a 5th option of neither hero nor villian, just a capitalist piece of shit who is trying to elevate himself by leveraging other peoples lives and information to elevate his own stature...

I say make the beast with two backs him, because he is writing his own death sentence....I just hope what he has reaped is sewn back 10 fold!

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 03, 2010, 05:04:38 AM
מצוין ×"×™×"×™×" שלי  [evil]  ;)

×"וא לא ×'אמת ×—×'ר שלך   ;)

i have an ivrit keyboard, i lived in israel.. how do you guys know how to type ivrit??

Quote from: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 05:13:22 AM
i have an ivrit keyboard, i lived in israel.. how do you guys know how to type ivrit??

יש לי קשרים ×'ם

whats ivrit?  8) ;)

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 05:12:28 AM
×"וא לא ×'אמת ×—×'ר שלך   ;)

×"אוי×' מ×"אוי×' שלי ×"וא ×™×"×™×" שלי

Even if it wasn't for the 'leaks' the dude has warrants for two rape charges. I'm sure he's a real charmer.

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 03, 2010, 05:20:47 AM
×"אוי×' מ×"אוי×' שלי ×"וא ×™×"×™×" שלי

נקו×"×" טו×'×"

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 05:24:39 AM
נקו×"×" טו×'×"

Toda raba.

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 03, 2010, 05:20:47 AM
האויב מהאויב שלי הוא ידיד שלי

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 05:24:39 AM
נקודה טובה

ok, who has the translator program?

you guys sound like computers.  i know what you were trying to say, but that's not how it's said colloquially..

What? So you're the only one here who's lived in Israel?  My ivrit sucks, I know.  It sucked 25 years ago and I've had all that time to develop an even greater suckerheit  :D.

Damn. I think my keyboard is working again.  Did anybody see that?

No?

Good.

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 03, 2010, 05:36:06 AM
What? So you're the only one here who's lived in Israel?  My ivrit sucks, I know.  It sucked 25 years ago and I've had all that time to develop an even greater suckerheit  :D.

Damn. I think my keyboard is working again.  Did anybody see that?

No?

Good.

no, but while i am struggling to type ivrit on my keyboard (it's not easy to switch back and forth) you bastards are having it done automatic

Quote from: Mother on December 03, 2010, 01:05:42 AM
I voted villian because I think the guy is a dick

but

it's my paranoid opinion that if this guy had any really damaging information

and

the feds were truly worried about the information he had

he'd be dead already

+1

Quote from: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 05:13:22 AM
i have an ivrit keyboard, i lived in israel.. how do you guys know how to type ivrit??

they don't, but google does...

Quote from: herm on December 03, 2010, 05:40:37 AM
they don't, but google does...

Shekket b'vaka sha!

meshuggah's end of threadjack....

Quote from: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 05:30:03 AM
ok, who has the translator program?

you guys sound like computers.  i know what you were trying to say, but that's not how it's said colloquially..

It's the lord's hebrew. ;D

Kinda like the kings english.

You know how things get bastardized over the years.

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 06:14:28 AM
It's the lord's hebrew. ;D

Kinda like the kings english.

You know how things get bastardized over the years.

Perfect example right there.  Bastardised is what the King would've said (if he coulda managed all 'em syllables in the one word that is).

We should probably stop jacking _big's_ thread.

מ×" ×–×" " אנחנו "?

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 03, 2010, 06:28:49 AM
מ×" ×–×" " אנחנו "?

מא×"ים, עורך ×"×"ין, ל×'ין שיכור ... אנחנו. ;)

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 06:36:12 AM
מא×"ים, עורך ×"×"ין, ל×'ין שיכור ... אנחנו. ;)

Ah...those "we"... Fair enough.

In that case, I think the wikileaks guy is....um... courageous  (<< euphemism)  ;)

Quote from: Sad Panda on December 03, 2010, 05:22:46 AM
Even if it wasn't for the 'leaks' the dude has warrants for two rape charges. I'm sure he's a real charmer.

about those rape "charges":

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/world/europe/19assange.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/world/europe/19assange.html?_r=1)

from what i can tell, assange still hasn't been charged with a crime and is officially "just wanted for questioning".

http://www.undispatch.com/what-an-interpol-red-notice-actually-means (http://www.undispatch.com/what-an-interpol-red-notice-actually-means)

Quote from: humorless dp on December 03, 2010, 06:36:12 AM
מא×"ים, עורך ×"×"ין, ל×'ין שיכור ... אנחנו. ;)

Hey....this is America, speak Spanish....god dammit.  :D

More food for thought.  In, ahem, English...
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/11/overseeing_state_secrecy (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/11/overseeing_state_secrecy)

"Organisations such as WikiLeaks, which are philosophically opposed to state secrecy and which operate as much as is possible outside the global nation-state system, may be the best we can hope for in the way of promoting the climate of transparency and accountability necessary for authentically liberal democracy"

I'm not sure I buy that.  I don't believe in the case of the state department that secrecy they employ results in preventing some necessary transparency.  Neither are they autocratic - diplomats are appointed directly by the president, and typically their appointment lasts the duration of the administration.
I will say it has been nice to know what goes on.  And the experience to me has been kinda like kicking over a log, expecting to find roaches and millipedes and finding a family of bunnies.  Judgmental, gossipy bunnies.

If you're worried about the quality of those serving in the state department, there's this:
http://euobserver.com/24/31394 (http://euobserver.com/24/31394)
"It sets a benchmark for diplomacy. Our reports are incredibly long and written in a kind of administrative jargon. We have no opinions. We hide our opinions behind bureaucratic language because we are not allowed to have opinions in a highly hierarchical structure."

Quote from: zooom on December 03, 2010, 05:10:35 AM
all I can say...there should be a 5th option of neither hero nor villian, just a capitalist piece of shit who is trying to elevate himself by leveraging other peoples lives and information to elevate his own stature...

ummh that basically defines exactly who everyone in power is. 

sorry but if you think world leaders are not leveraging and elevating their own power using other peoples live and information, then maybe you are on to something.

but i would have to agree with you on "neither" because he is basically doing what every person ina position of power does, which is elevate their own worth in some way by exploiting or using others.  if you can't do that, than you are not a good person in power.    [laugh]

Quote from: kopfjäger on December 03, 2010, 09:38:15 AM
Hey....this is America, speak Spanish....god dammit.  :D

[laugh]   [laugh]   [laugh]

Quote from: swampduc on December 03, 2010, 04:50:59 AM
you gotta be kidding me. What make the beast with two backsing planet do you live on, dude?

Supposedly this guy that downloded the stuff is gay and was pissed off because of the possibility of changing " Don't ask, Don't Tell ."

I've got my sources and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Dolph

Quote from: DoubleEagle on December 03, 2010, 11:22:06 AM
Supposedly this guy that downloded the stuff is gay and was pissed off because of the possibility of changing " Don't ask, Don't Tell ."

I've got my sources and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Dolph

i've seen the discussions alleging private manning's orientation, but none of them correlate that with the leak of information...

honestly, i don't even see how one can positively influence the other.

Any enemy to the truth is an enemy to freedom. This guy definitely isn't a hero but neither is he a villain, he's just a face for wikileaks, which is the most popular of this type of website. A whole lot of 'important' people are butthurt because they were stupid enough to say this shit on record.

Quote from: killaimdie on December 03, 2010, 08:41:11 PM
A whole lot of 'important' people are butthurt because they were stupid enough to say this shit on record.

The issue is SO much more complicated than that.  But hey, you're welcome to your opinion. 

Who's butthurt?
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/03/131778764/foreign-policy-diplomats-secretly-love-wikileaks (http://www.npr.org/2010/12/03/131778764/foreign-policy-diplomats-secretly-love-wikileaks)
Most cables are sent anonymously - if you see a name attached one, it is typically the diplomat or chief of mission or Secretary of State, who is not necessarily the author.

There's truth and disclosure.  As far as I know these leaks didn't expose blatant (and let's say specific) lies on the part of the administrations, just revealed what we didn't see before.  If you want to say those two things are the same, that would be a pretty interesting debate.

I'd say Assange is not just the face of wikileaks, he's more or less the backbone. Check out the New Yorker Article I posted before.  If your point was more like he's the lightning rod, then yes, I would say that's about right.  But he constructed a pretty big lightning-attracting tower for himself.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/ron-paul-what-wikileaks/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/ron-paul-what-wikileaks/)

Quote from: derby on December 04, 2010, 11:41:32 AM
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/ron-paul-what-wikileaks/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/ron-paul-what-wikileaks/)

Quote"What we need is more WikiLeaks about the Federal Reserve," he said. "Can you imagine what it'd be like if we had every conversation in the last 10 years with our Federal Reserve people, the Federal Reserve chairman, with all the central bankers of the world and every agreement or quid-pro-quo they have? It would be massive. People would be so outraged."

THAT i can agree with

but of course, this is bordering on pool-of-ticks

Leaks can be both beneficial in many ways and damaging in many ways, so he's neither a hero nor a villain.

Personally, I think he's stupid to be spitting out teasers of pending releases. Just release the information without fanfare. By teasing he's taunting, which raises questions about his motivations and therefore his credibility. This never ends well, especially when the website may be useful as these articles suggest at the L.A. Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rowley-wikileaks-20101015,0,5616717.story) and Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/coleen-rowley/could-wikileaks-have-help_b_772479.html).

Also, he could hugely help his standing IMO if he now released information on other governments in the world stage such as China and Russia that may offset what he did with U.S. information. However, based on what I've read, I'd have to say the published details in of themselves have amounted to no surprise. It may not have been truly public, but I wouldn't doubt the numerous players involved on both sides of the fences already knew all this now and in future leaks anyway.

And, if you really want to shut down the voice of Wikileaks, what's to stop governments and corporations from "leaking" information to Wikileaks thats nothing more than disinformation to counteract the shocking revelations of other leaked details? The result of this information / disinformation back and forth will get to the point of OK, so now what is there to believe? In the end Wikileaks will become mute anyway.

Quote from: gojira on December 04, 2010, 12:13:24 PM
Also, he could hugely help his standing IMO if he now released information on other governments in the world stage such as China and Russia that may offset what he did with U.S. information.

They would be in Chinese and Russian.  No one would read them.   [laugh]

Well, more to the point, he would have to broaden his talent base and provide translation services..

Quote from: ducatiz on December 04, 2010, 12:21:41 PM
They would be in Chinese and Russian.  No one would read them.   [laugh]

Well, more to the point, he would have to broaden his talent base and provide translation services..

Sounds like he's already worldwide in "staffing" so this is probably covered.

Quote from: gojira on December 04, 2010, 12:39:02 PM
Sounds like he's already worldwide in "staffing" so this is probably covered.

Well, he screw that up (no pun intended) in Sweden.. twice..

Well, the simple fact that he stated a while back that he was actively trying to damage America kind of shows that his intentions are not to support transparency.  Plus, he probably knows that his days would quickly become numbered if he started doing something like this to the Russians, as their way of dealing with him would most likely be much more direct.

Respected media outlets collaborate with WikiLeaks (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i0Vruimmvy8loGklsz34QyGDKMDA?docId=120c7bf5d3a34dbaadf1280dace2e456)

And the NY Times famously buried the story of Stalin's Ukrainian famine, refusing to print photos and stories from reporters.  News media serve their own purposes.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 05, 2010, 11:06:05 AM
News media serve their own purposes.

Exactly

Quote from: ducatiz on December 04, 2010, 12:21:41 PM
They would be in Chinese and Russian.  No one would read them.   [laugh]

Well, more to the point, he would have to broaden his talent base and provide translation services..

Точное замечено. Он верояÑ,но не подумал Ñ,ого. Удачно я Ñ...иÑ,ро лингуисÑ,ка!!

Sounds like he is in the gray bar hotel in London today.

mitt

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 07, 2010, 03:59:02 AM

Точное замечено. Он верояÑ,но не подумал Ñ,ого. Удачно я Ñ...иÑ,ро лингуисÑ,ка!!

I bet he is worried about other things right now. 

I grew up in a russian/yiddische home, i just don't have a russian keyboard..

Quote from: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 06:08:31 AM
<snip> i just don't have a russian keyboard..

neither does he  ;D

more on those rape charges...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40556948/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40556948/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/)

No condom?  Now we know why its "wikileaks"

Villain ..imo

But sure do want to know about the aliens

Regarding the alleged sexual assault, let him go to Sweden to face any such charges before a court if its established there's a case to answer. 

But aside from those serious allegations, as a matter of law has the guy actually committed any offence (as in broken laws which exist on the statute books in any US jurisdiction as of today)??   On the other hand there clearly are criminals within the embarrassingly porous US bureaucracy, stealing and then leaking all this confidential information to his and other news organisations for publication.  Why are those insiders not being so enthusiastically pursued?

QuoteOn the other hand there clearly are criminals within the embarrassingly porous US bureaucracy, stealing and then leaking all this confidential information to his and other news organizations for publication.  Why are those insiders not being so enthusiastically pursued?

+1  As a fed I am aware of strong laws to protect the public from the misuse of personal information.  Hell, I have to take training on it every year even though I have nothing to do with personal information.  Seems to me you can think of this guy as a scum bag or a hero of internet freedom.  It doesn't matter much to me.  The real crooks are the ones leaking out the info.  The leak of the SS#s is a serious crime.

Are you talking about PFC Manning?  If we are to take the reports at face value -and I do- we've apprehended the insider.

After reading more about him, I think I am changing my answer to villain.  I think what confuses the issue is his weapon of choice - this information he has helped to leak is if nothing else really interesting.  So far they have caused embarrassment, but no seismic political event.  I tended to think no harm, no foul.

On the other hand, Assange does not fly planes into buildings, but he seeks the same kind of outcome which is not dead civilians and leveled buildings but a major disruption of society as we know it.  And even if what he does overlaps with or promotes other ideas I agree with like government transparency, he needs to be judged by his intentions, not by the outcome.  Especially if he has been emboldened by the success of Cablegate.  The fact that the information he provided (so far) is not relatively destructive does not change his status.

While I sometimes, maybe often sympathize with anarchists, they make the worst road builders.  They are also paranoid, use deeply flawed arguments, and typically endorse the same kind of unilateral actions that they rail against.  I don't want either of those kinds of people in power. 

In conclusion, boobies.

http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/public-accuracy-press-release (http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/public-accuracy-press-release)

It should be noted that Julian Assange has never been charged with a crime in an any jurisdiction anywhere in the world at the local, national or international level for the "rape" charges or his wikileaks dealings. Not one single charge has been filed against him. Anywhere, in any country, for anything. He turned himself in for questioning only. He has not been charged much less found guilty of anything.

Yet people are calling for his imprisonment or even death. Amazon stopped hosting his website. MC and Visa stopped processing donations to wikileaks. A Swiss bank has frozen wikileak's accounts. For . . . well no lawful reason at all.

So much for due process.

sac

Quote from: Sad Panda on December 03, 2010, 05:22:46 AM
Even if it wasn't for the 'leaks' the dude has warrants for two rape charges. I'm sure he's a real charmer.

Um, no. No he does not.


Here is what happened:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html)


So very different than what is being reported in the US, no?

sac

??? "Last night, a European Arrest ­Warrant was given by Interpol to Scotland Yard."


Visa, Mastercard and Amazon are under no obligation, legal or otherwise to do anything for Assange.  Is this unfair?  Maybe, depending on where your sympathies lie.  If yes is your answer, I will give you that. 
Are these companies obligated to provide some legal justification for cutting him off?  No, and neither do I think that rape charges, if that's what you were saying, had anything to do with it.  It might be the stated reason, but the real reason is that he is maxima persona non grata with lots of people.

Quote from: Sắc Dục on December 08, 2010, 12:25:31 PM
Um, no. No he does not.


Here is what ASSANGE SAYS happened:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html)


So very different than what is being reported in the US, no?

sac

corrected

and never forget the rule "Media reports according to its own interests"

Quote from: il d00d on December 08, 2010, 12:43:06 PM
??? "Last night, a European Arrest ­Warrant was given by Interpol to Scotland Yard."


Visa, Mastercard and Amazon are under no obligation, legal or otherwise to do anything for Assange.  Is this unfair?  Maybe, depending on where your sympathies lie.  If yes is your answer, I will give you that.  
Are these companies obligated to provide some legal justification for cutting him off?  No, and neither do I think that rape charges, if that's what you were saying, had anything to do with it.  It might be the stated reason, but the real reason is that he is maxima persona non grata with lots of people.

Yes, there is an arrest warrant. No he has not been charged with a crime. There is a difference. The Swedish authorities want to question him in regards to the allegations. His lawyers have told them he would make himself available for questioning via, phone, email, skype, etc. For some reason, even though he has not been charged with a crime, this was not enough for them. So they issued the warrant so they could have him in custody. He turned himself in less than 24 hours after the warrant was issued. he is not being arrested "on rape charges" "for rape" or anything else that has to do with rape. The thing they want to question him about is whether he coereced one (just one) of the women he had consensual sex with into having that consensual sex without a condom. That is all. And he hasn't even been charged with that.

You are correct, private companies are under no obligation (other than any contracts they have made with their client) to provide services to anyone unless laws specifically order them to do so.

Still can't understand why wikileaks assets were frozen by a Swiss bank. How could there be legal justification for that?

sac

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 12:48:52 PM
corrected

and never forget the rule "Media reports according to its own interests"

Go ahead and read the whole article. I'll wait.

sac

Quote from: Sắc Dục on December 08, 2010, 12:52:35 PM

Go ahead and read the whole article. I'll wait.

sac

I did

QuoteThere is scant evidence â€" in the public domain at least â€" of rape, sexual molestation or unlawful coercion

It's not unusual for prosecutors to withhold certain evidence until trial ESPECIALLY where a sex crime is involved.

What are the laws in Sweden regarding evidence? 

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 12:54:43 PM

It's not unusual for prosecutors to withhold certain evidence until trial ESPECIALLY where a sex crime is involved.

however, if you DO read what's in the public domain, it sounds that these women were quite personable with assange after the alleged events. not how i'd think you'd treat your "rapist," no?

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 12:54:43 PM
I did

It's not unusual for prosecutors to withhold certain evidence until trial ESPECIALLY where a sex crime is involved.

What are the laws in Sweden regarding evidence? 

I saw a lot of quotes from the accusers and not so many from Assange. Don't quite understand how you figure this is "what Assange says happened."

I know nothing of Swedish law. It will be interesting to see if he gets charged, what he gets charged with and on what evidence he gets charged. Surely the authorities have some information the public does not.

Although considering the hate for this man, I wouldn't be surprised if he accidentally fell down twelve flights of steps before a trial took place.

sac

Quote from: derby on December 08, 2010, 01:04:00 PM
however, if you DO read what's in the public domain, it sounds that these women were quite personable with assange after the alleged events. not how i'd think you'd treat your "rapist," no?

sounds very typical for young women who simply don't know how to react in a situation like that.

you see sexually abused children doing the same thing.

Quote from: Sắc Dục on December 08, 2010, 01:09:05 PM

I saw a lot of quotes from the accusers and not so many from Assange. Don't quite understand how you figure this is "what Assange says happened."

comments from his attorney

QuoteI know nothing of Swedish law. It will be interesting to see if he gets charged, what he gets charged with and on what evidence he gets charged. Surely the authorities have some information the public does not.

that's the basis of my whole point.

This isn't Uganda -- it's SWEDEN.  as in one of the most liberal socialist democracies in history, with a VERY activist judiciary and having some of the most profoundly absurd safe-harbor laws.  These aren't judges in Turdswallow looking to grind an axe, these guys have a history of being uber liberal in favor of defendants and protecting the order of law.

My guess is that the prosecutors have some kind of evidence that they don't have to release to the public.

QuoteAlthough considering the hate for this man, I wouldn't be surprised if he accidentally fell down twelve flights of steps before a trial took place.

sac

that's probably better for everyone involved.  the last thing we need are stories of Assange in an American jail being assraped daily.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 01:19:16 PM...that's probably better for everyone involved.  the last thing we need are stories of Assange in an American jail being assraped daily.

What, exactly is it that you are advocating here would be "better for everyone involved"? 

And why worry about Assange ending up in a US jail?  Has he committed any offence in the USA?  Or been charged with any offence in the USA? Or had any warrant issued for his arrest in relation to any alleged offence in the USA?  I dont believe that at the time of writing he is wanted for any offence in the USA is he?  His "crime" is to have caused serious embarrassment to the US and other governments internationally by being amongst those willing to publish information showing these administrations to be hypercritical liars.  Like we didnt already know.

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 08, 2010, 02:21:28 PM

And why worry about Assange ending up in a US jail?  Has he committed any offence in the USA?  Or been charged with any offence in the USA? Or had any warrant issued for his arrest in relation to any alleged offence in the USA?  I dont believe that at the time of writing he is wanted for any offence in the USA is he?  His "crime" is to have caused serious embarrassment to the US and other governments internationally by being amongst those willing to publish information showing these administrations to be hypercritical liars.  Like we didnt already know.

I am guessing inside so many documents, there has to be something posted that violated some law.  Personal privacy laws, copyright laws, intellectual property laws, etc.

That was the simple clause that Amazon used for dumping him off their cloud.  Their agreement states you must own or be the originator of the hosted content.  Clearly he (wikileaks) is neither.

Him posting private communication is a lot different than having the BBC, Al Jazerra, or NY Times on the ground reporting the real truth.  A) - Wikileaks didn't create the content, so it is not their right to distribute it.  B) private communication is based on the context of the conversation.  It is might not be ny closer to the truth than when Fox news reports on a Middle East story w/o any local reporters.

The people that are saying he is a hero are probably the same ones that don't support traditional media reporting (30 something internet addicts).  I think the lack of independent journalist on the ground is one reason why our news today is biased and agenda full, not really the government censoring or filtering what we see.   Want more truth, put more Dexter Filkens on the ground where the news is happening.


mitt

So far, the concensus is that he could be charged under terrorism laws.

Its academic at this point, whether he will be charged.

Quote from: mitt on December 08, 2010, 04:25:04 PM
I am guessing inside so many documents, there has to be something posted that violated some law.  Personal privacy laws, copyright laws, intellectual property laws, etc.

And if your guess is valid, then the law was violated by those who stole the information.  Yet the lynch-mob wanna hang a guy who AFAIK (and I've not yet been contradicted) has broken no US law.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 06:00:53 PM
So far, the concensus is that he could be charged under terrorism laws.

Along with the editors/publishers of some of the world's major new organisations then I presume.  And consensus? What consensus would that be?  More contentious than consensus.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 06:00:53 PMIts academic at this point, whether he will be charged.

But lets condemn him anyway? 

Quote from: ungeheuer on December 08, 2010, 06:13:57 PM
Along with the editors/publishers of some of the world's major new organisations then I presume.  And consensus? What consensus would that be?  More contentious than consensus.

I'm an attorney, I talk to other attorneys.  Whether it can be proven is another issue, but the general consensus of folks I talk to is that there is prima facie evidence sufficient.

Put it this way.  If I steal a car, I am guilty of car theft.  If you accept that car from me as a gift, you're not guilty of car theft, you're guilty of receiving stolen property.  If you then take that car and run over a carload of nuns and kill them all, you're guilty of murder.

Likewise, Mr Assange has received property of the US government which is (under law) classified and possessed only with clearance.  Mere possession of classified material can expose you to prosecution.  However, he didn't merely possess it, he put it out into the open.  If he is charged, I doubt they will have a problem finding a way to convict him.

So, yes, he has likely broken US law by receiving material which, under the law, is only possessable by those with clearance.  Likewise, if he transmitted it to anyone else (which he did by posting it to /world), he is also liable.

QuoteBut lets condemn him anyway?  

QuoteCROWD:
    A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! Burn her! Burn her!
    Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
    We have found a witch. May we burn her?
CROWD:
    Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!
BEDEVERE:
    How do you know she is a witch?

===8< snip===
VILLAGER #1:
    She has got a wart.
RANDOM:
    [cough]
BEDEVERE:
    What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3:
    Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE:
    A newt?
VILLAGER #3:
    I got better.
VILLAGER #2:
    Burn her anyway!

Mitt, from what I heard today, the U.S. Justice department is most actively persuing the Trafficking of Stolen Goods angle. Also, the Judge at his hearing today did not release him on bail. The US has extradition treaties with both the UK and Sweden but apparently extradition from Sweden is much much easier. It looks fairly certain that he will be kept in prison without being charged until the US can request extradition.

But the British judge did mention in his ruling how flimsy the evidence for the sexual assault charges is and admonished the prosecution for missing deadlines to hand over evidence (namely texts between the two women) to the defense.

sac

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 06:00:53 PM
So far, the concensus is that he could be charged under terrorism laws.

Its academic at this point, whether he will be charged.

Can I just point out, from my outside the US point of view, that the very idea of accusing someone of "terrorism" for revealing the behaviour of the government/military is _quite_ odd.

(And yeah, you didn't actually say he was a terrorist, but either somebody is saying that, or they're intentionally using "terrorism laws" to charge someone who isn't a terrorist...)

big

Quote from: bigiain on December 08, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
Can I just point out, from my outside the US point of view, that the very idea of accusing someone of "terrorism" for revealing the behaviour of the government/military is _quite_ odd.

(And yeah, you didn't actually say he was a terrorist, but either somebody is saying that, or they're intentionally using "terrorism laws" to charge someone who isn't a terrorist...)

big

It's an interesting point, but the rationale would likely be that he is aiding and abetting groups like al Qaeda by doing so and has implicated himself in some sort of scheme to hurt the USA.  That is wholly separate from any potential charges related to his receiving classified information.

The real question is how much actual "bad behavior" has he revealed?  Everything I've read has indicated most of the cables are just embarrassing, not insidious. 

Can someone point to something revealed that shows horrible behavior?  I mean, apart from the normal sorts of cloak and dagger bit.

Just seems like embarrassing stuff such as you'd not want your friend to hear after you'd just criticized his fat wife to another person.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 08:15:21 PM
The real question is how much actual "bad behavior" has he revealed?  Everything I've read has indicated most of the cables are just embarrassing, not insidious. 

Can someone point to something revealed that shows horrible behavior?  I mean, apart from the normal sorts of cloak and dagger bit.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/1/wikileaks_cables_reveal_us_tried_to (http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/1/wikileaks_cables_reveal_us_tried_to)
http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/2010/10/23/secret-files-reveal-allegations-of-prisoner-abuse-by-american-troops-after-abu-ghrai/ (http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/2010/10/23/secret-files-reveal-allegations-of-prisoner-abuse-by-american-troops-after-abu-ghrai/)
http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/2010/10/23/human-bomb-detectors/ (http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/2010/10/23/human-bomb-detectors/)
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/07/report-wikileaks-cab.html (http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/07/report-wikileaks-cab.html)

I'm the first to admit I've never been to war, and I can't judge what is and isn't appropriate on the spot, BUT, if my country was going to do some of that stuff in my name, I'd at least want to know it's going on and have the opportunity ask someone to justify it and to oppose it.

big ( see also http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/ (http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/) )

Interesting Scot Adams blog post about the sexual abuse charges:

http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/sweden (http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/sweden)

QuoteTo be fair, I don't know if Assange's alleged broken condom is because the product was defective. We have good evidence that Assange has the world's biggest set of nuts, so assuming some degree of proportionality, he'd put a strain on any brand of condom that didn't have rebar ribs.

big

Quote from: bigiain on December 08, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
Can I just point out, from my outside the US point of view, that the very idea of accusing someone of "terrorism" for revealing the behaviour of the government/military is _quite_ odd.

His intent was not to embarrass the US government, or any of the things that have or haven't happened as a result of the leaks.  Just like Bin Laden didn't target the World Trade Center because he just hated those two particular buildings, he sought to maximize the effect of the weapons he had at his disposal, in pursuit of some bigger goal.  Embarrassment might be a win in Assange's book, but he did not specifically seek out embarrassing material to shame the US and other governments.  He released these documents because he had access to them, and they served his ultimate goal. More maximizing.

His stated intent  (http://www.thecommentfactory.com/exclusive-the-wikileaks-manifesto-by-julian-assange-3342/)is to overthrow "the conspiracy."  A government, by Assange's definition, is a conspiracy unless it addresses the needs of the constituency exactly, however the hell we might define those. 

At the moment, I am content to regard him as a nutcase with leverage, but ultimately harmless one of those.  But we can't rightly ignore his motivations.  I can't help but wonder what he might do with more leverage.

He's done a half good thing in pursuit of doing, in my opinion, an apparently fully bad thing.  The irony of terrorism charges is not lost on me, though :)

I'm not exactly sure why he

or

anyone else

Felt that he could leak the material publically

And

Not have really bad things happen to him

Regardless if what he did was legal or not

He embarrassed the biggest bully on the planet

There will be repercussions and they will be harsh

Quote from: il d00d on December 08, 2010, 10:49:08 PM
He's done a half good thing in pursuit of doing, in my opinion, an apparently fully bad thing.

That's an interesting perspective - I'll have to think on that one for a while...

big

An interesting story about prosecuting him for the leaked information. It appears the U.S. will have a tough time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11952817 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11952817)

Quote from: bigiain on December 08, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
Can I just point out, from my outside the US point of view, that the very idea of accusing someone of "terrorism" for revealing the behaviour of the government/military is _quite_ odd.

(And yeah, you didn't actually say he was a terrorist, but either somebody is saying that, or they're intentionally using "terrorism laws" to charge someone who isn't a terrorist...)

big

Terrorism has changed this country big time, and not all for the good.

Big Brother and all that.

Quote from: bigiain on December 08, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
Can I just point out, from my outside the US point of view, that the very idea of accusing someone of "terrorism" for revealing the behaviour of the government/military is _quite_ odd

+1 (from my outside vantage point too).

Quote from: ducatiz on December 08, 2010, 08:15:21 PM....The real question is how much actual "bad behavior" has he revealed?  Everything I've read has indicated most of the cables are just embarrassing, not insidious. 

Can someone point to something revealed that shows horrible behavior?  I mean, apart from the normal sorts of cloak and dagger bit.

Just seems like embarrassing stuff such as you'd not want your friend to hear after you'd just criticized his fat wife to another person.

Exactly.  All the more ridiculous then that the publication of mid-level embarrassment can be whipped up into somehow being akin to.... terrorism.

Quote from: Mother on December 09, 2010, 12:01:01 AM
I'm not exactly sure why he

or

anyone else

Felt that he could leak the material publically

And

Not have really bad things happen to him

Regardless if what he did was legal or not

He embarrassed the biggest bully on the planet

There will be repercussions and they will be harsh

+1 ^^ The crux of the issue IMO. 

He made a fool of the Big Guy.  And so now the Big Guy wants to crush him like a bug.  Because He can. 

Crushing small people who embarrass the State by making public the cringe-worthy private utterances of the ruling elite is something we'd condemn China for.  I'd like to think that the USA is better than that.

We are better.  China would make him a living organ donor.

"wo-min yao ni de liver"

Organ Donor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclS1pGHp8o#normal)

Quote from: ducatiz on December 10, 2010, 05:10:53 AM
We are better.  China would make him a living organ donor.

You're right, but do you really want to be proud of "not being as bad as the worst guy"?

big

Its a start!  :-)

We're nowhere near the worst and given the plethora of nasty characters we've gone against and how well they've dealt with compared to their actions I'd say we are near the top.

I know most countries would rather "the bomb go off" before they'd use so-called extreme measures.  I mean, God love the Swedes, they couldn't surrender fast enough to the Germans.  And now look at them being vilified.  Lol

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40654227/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40654227/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40958744/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40958744/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times)

I read a lot of what-ifs and maybe's.  This seems like more of a PR release than a news story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/us/07indict.html?ref=todayspaper (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/us/07indict.html?ref=todayspaper)