I'm embarking on a project this spring/summer and need advice/design help.
I have an idea...I need to know if it will work....and how to make it happen.
Anyone?
no...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once...
Quote from: zooom on January 05, 2011, 06:31:59 AM
no...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once...
me too...
it got me squat.
Maybe posting the idea/question would help..
Quote from: humorless dp on January 05, 2011, 06:24:05 AM
I'm embarking on a project this spring/summer and need advice/design help.
I have an idea...I need to know if it will work....and how to make it happen.
Anyone?
Project details? It's hard to give advice when the project details are missing! What's your idea?
Quote from: cokey on January 05, 2011, 06:35:43 AM
Maybe posting the idea/question would help..
OK...
I'm building a new house this year. It is going to be a saltbox style oriented to true south.
My plan is to use radiant in the slab with fin tube on the second floor.
I also plan on having a large (320 sq') solar array to heat water in an underground 1000 gallon tank and use heat exchangers in the tank to provide/preheat the water for both heat and DHW. I'd also like to use heat recovery in the septic tank for the times when mother nature provides no sun and the water in the storage tank drops below the temp in the septic tank. The fossil fueled device will be an on demand propane hot water heater, or a combi boiler/on demand, or 2 on demand heaters if that is necessary, although I don't think it is.
I need help with heat exchanger volumes/types/relative efficiencies, pumps, tempering/mixing valves, and differential controllers.
What you got?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 05, 2011, 06:32:50 AM
it got me squat.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 05, 2011, 06:48:24 AM
OK... What you got?
I may have a spare toilet sitting around for you to be able to stop squatting in the woods and using the rabbits like you are a bear cause your ass is too hairy for your own good.
J/K...couldn't resist...
Do you subscribe to Home Power by chance? It sounds just like one of their featured projects.
I got no help otherwise.
http://homepower.com/home/ (http://homepower.com/home/)
mitt
First off, have you though about using windmill power instead? So you have no worries of dark days.. they have a few good new designs which are small and efficient. Good price too..
Quote from: cokey on January 05, 2011, 07:18:39 AM
First off, have you though about using windmill power instead? So you have no worries of dark days.. they have a few good new designs which are small and efficient. Good price too..
No offense...
If I wanted advice on wind power I would have asked. :P
I'm also not interested in photo-voltaic as the cost/return isn't there yet.
I'm not looking to generate power...right now anyway. Wind power would certainly be viable in this location for the future if I ever dig myself out of the hole this project will create.
IMO, the ease of implementing the benefits of solar water heating make it the most logical choice for now.
Quote from: cokey on January 05, 2011, 07:18:39 AM
First off, have you though about using windmill power instead? So you have no worries of dark days.. they have a few good new designs which are small and efficient. Good price too..
Just worries of calm days and maintenance ;D The small cheap windmills will not get you much power either - there are laws of physics and you get what you pay for - the rest is creative marketing.
I agree with dp, thermal energy is the cheapest and easiest to implement at the moment. I would rate wind as the hardest. Again, if you are interested in this stuff, subscribe to Home Power - it goes through the decision process for different home sights and climates every month. You can subscribe online, and go back and look at old issues. It has been around for 20 years, and gets into the nuts and bolts, not just pretty pictures of before and after.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on January 05, 2011, 07:58:23 AM
Just worries of calm days and maintenance ;D The small cheap windmills will not get you much power either - there are laws of physics and you get what you pay for - the rest is creative marketing.
I agree with dp, thermal energy is the cheapest and easiest to implement at the moment. I would rate wind as the hardest. Again, if you are interested in this stuff, subscribe to Home Power - it goes through the decision process for different home sights and climates every month. You can subscribe online, and go back and look at old issues. It has been around for 20 years, and gets into the nuts and bolts, not just pretty pictures of before and after.
mitt
For anyone interested,
this (http://www.solarbair.com/articles/horsecreekarticle.html) is the system my idea/plan is based on except for the on demand heaters instead of a boiler. I'm skipping the hot tub.
I'm also planning on building my own collectors. There are plans online for home built collectors that come within a few percentage points of factory built in efficiency.
One of the most interesting facts I have seen about solar are quoted on the wiki page:
"The total solar energy absorbed by Earth's atmosphere, oceans and land masses is approximately 3,850,000 exajoules (EJ) per year.[6] In 2002, this was more energy in one hour than the world used in one year."
"The amount of solar energy reaching the surface of the planet is so vast that in one year it is about twice as much as will ever be obtained from all of the Earth's non-renewable resources of coal, oil, natural gas, and mined uranium combined"
Makes me optimistic that we can solve our dependency on fossil fuels for a lot of applications. All it takes is money and ingenuity.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on January 05, 2011, 09:02:55 AM
Makes me optimistic that we can solve our dependency on fossil fuels for a lot of applications. All it takes is money and ingenuity.
mitt
so, when are you going to perfect that mobile capture device for reusing all the methane them cows be giving off?!?!?!
Quote from: mitt on January 05, 2011, 09:02:55 AM
One of the most interesting facts I have seen about solar are quoted on the wiki page:
"The total solar energy absorbed by Earth's atmosphere, oceans and land masses is approximately 3,850,000 exajoules (EJ) per year.[6] In 2002, this was more energy in one hour than the world used in one year."
"The amount of solar energy reaching the surface of the planet is so vast that in one year it is about twice as much as will ever be obtained from all of the Earth's non-renewable resources of coal, oil, natural gas, and mined uranium combined"
Makes me optimistic that we can solve our dependency on fossil fuels for a lot of applications. All it takes is money and ingenuity.
mitt
I figure I can cut fossil fuel usage for heat and DHW by at least 50% over a no solar design.
Because of the inherent efficiency of what I'm planning to build for a house my usage will be about 25% of what it is currently.
Bravo.
Perhaps you will offset my gigantic carbon footprint.
;D
What power density are you using for the incoming sunlight?
IIRC from way back in school, 100 Watts/ meter^2 is a typical number.
A Google didn't support that....found a wide variation. ???
Perhaps that was what a PV array could provide.....
Quote from: Speeddog on January 05, 2011, 11:15:50 AM
What power density are you using for the incoming sunlight?
IIRC from way back in school, 100 Watts/ meter^2 is a typical number.
A Google didn't support that....found a wide variation. ???
Perhaps that was what a PV array could provide.....
W/m^2 depends on collector angle, time of year, and your latitude right? Probably the reason why the wide variation.
mitt
Well, I was seeing numbers from ~100 to ~1000... :P
Quote from: Speeddog on January 05, 2011, 01:49:18 PM
Well, I was seeing numbers from ~100 to ~1000... :P
that would be about right I think. Take a look at these maps
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html (http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html)
just for the yearly average in the US map it is 90 to 280 W/m^2 if I am doing the math right [ (2.2kWh/m^2/day)*(1day/24h) = 92W/m^2 ] So peaks and lows world wide would probably be from 0 to 1000 depending on location and time of year.
mitt
Have you considered a wood stove? :D
Talk to the engineers at Schuco. I sold their solar thermal dhw systems for awhile. Didnt get into radiant heating applications because the company that I sold for wanted to keep it simple.
There is a diagram on their website that shows the solar panels feeding a storage tank and boiler system. I'm assuming it could be fed through a manifold to temper a slab.
Solar thermal hot water systems give best bang for the buck......until cheap thin film pv systems are perfected.
What exterior wall thickness are you going with? Insulation type and R values?
Good luck!
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 05, 2011, 02:26:07 PM
Have you considered a wood stove? :D
Might not be a good plan in a haybale house.
[popcorn]
Quote from: Speeddog on January 05, 2011, 02:42:26 PM
Might not be a good plan in a haybale house.
[popcorn]
Oh, I'm so going to huff and puff at DIMBY.
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 05, 2011, 02:26:07 PM
Have you considered a wood stove? :D
For the past 23 years I've been looking at and feeding those make the beast with two backsing things. If I had a wood lot I would still consider a form of wood heat. Buying wood today saves nothing and is still more work than it's worth. If I want to see flames...I'll start a fire...or install a pellet stove. :-*
Quote from: rgramjet on January 05, 2011, 02:39:35 PM
Talk to the engineers at Schuco. I sold their solar thermal dhw systems for awhile. Didnt get into radiant heating applications because the company that I sold for wanted to keep it simple.
There is a diagram on their website that shows the solar panels feeding a storage tank and boiler system. I'm assuming it could be fed through a manifold to temper a slab.
Solar thermal hot water systems give best bang for the buck......until cheap thin film pv systems are perfected.
What exterior wall thickness are you going with? Insulation type and R values?
Good luck!
I'm using a wall system you're probably not familiar with. It's called a REMOTE wall. It's very effective in cold wet climates. It's widely used in Alaska on retrofits. The idea of it is to move the condensation point outside the sheathing to prevent mold and mildew. I'm also going to use the airtight drywall approach. The house will be tight...I'm shooting for way less than .5 ACH. There will be a suitable HRV.
Framing will be 2x4 unless there is some code in the state that says I can't. We have no code enforcement in my town anyway except the fire chief will inspect a 'boiler'. I don't think I'm going to have an actual boiler and he's an asshole anyway...make the beast with two backs him. 4" of rigid outside and 3 1/2 fiberglass inside. Those numbers fit into the REMOTE system and should give me close to an R-30 wall. I can't afford much more. The roof will have 12" of either cellulose or fiberglass with an additional 2-4" of rigid on top. No penetrations through the roof other than the plumbing vent. Also no can lighting.
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 05, 2011, 02:48:42 PM
Oh, I'm so going to huff and puff at DIMBY.
I am so not afraid of you. ;D
another rescource
http://www.americansolartechnics.com/index.html (http://www.americansolartechnics.com/index.html)
well insullated storage tank
Quote from: Speeddog on January 05, 2011, 11:15:50 AM
What power density are you using for the incoming sunlight?
IIRC from way back in school, 100 Watts/ meter^2 is a typical number.
A Google didn't support that....found a wide variation. ???
Perhaps that was what a PV array could provide.....
I'm not using any power density...that's math.
I'm using the premise that with a large storage volume and collectors facing true south at an angle of latitude+15 degrees it is going to make hot water when the sun is out. Because of the storage volume and the low temps required for radiant heat I see no reason it won't be effective.
Quote from: OT_Ducati on January 05, 2011, 07:02:51 PM
another rescource
http://www.americansolartechnics.com/index.html (http://www.americansolartechnics.com/index.html)
well insullated storage tank
I think some of you are missing the point. If I wanted to purchase a manufactured system it would be simple. I want to build as much of this as possible because I can't afford to do what I want with factory manufactured parts. I can insulate a tank, one much larger than what I can buy, and I also think I can make collectors with close enough performance to factory built to justify the reduced performance with the cost savings. I can size the system to make up for shortfalls in performance.(I know there is at least one person that thinks I'm wrong...sorry Frank ;D)
Also most hot water systems are sized to do DHW only. I want a system that will do radiant heat also....think bigger...much bigger.
I'm looking for help with numbers to prove that I'm either right or wrong, and also for which widget goes where and how many I need. I already know I'm going to need a bunch of thermal sensors, pumps, and tempering valves. I also would like some input as to whether I'm thinking correctly in using a drainback system, or should I, because of the cold use an antifreeze system which is less efficient. How far can the tank be from a drainback collector before freezing is an issue at -20F if the piping is buried and well insulated?
Stuff like that.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 06, 2011, 05:56:11 AM
(I know there is at least one person that thinks I'm wrong...sorry Frank ;D)
I don't always practice what I preach or practice whats good for me. I have a plan for domestic hot water and it doesn't involve a manufactured collector ;)
even though I know they're more efficient and easier to control.............
Quote from: The Architect on January 06, 2011, 06:18:51 AM
I don't always practice what I preach or practice whats good for me. I have a plan for domestic hot water and it doesn't involve a manufactured collector ;) even though I know they're more efficient and easier to control.............
I'll give you more efficient if you give me more expensive. :P
Why easier to control?
Any thoughts on those solar pool heater mat collectors?
http://cgi.ebay.com/4x20-Swim-Pool-Solar-Heater-Panel-w-Diverter-Kit-/180357483220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/4x20-Swim-Pool-Solar-Heater-Panel-w-Diverter-Kit-/180357483220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)
Quote from: The Architect on January 06, 2011, 06:32:45 AM
Any thoughts on those solar pool heater mat collectors?
http://cgi.ebay.com/4x20-Swim-Pool-Solar-Heater-Panel-w-Diverter-Kit-/180357483220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/4x20-Swim-Pool-Solar-Heater-Panel-w-Diverter-Kit-/180357483220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)
I don't have any empirical data on these.
However, my neighbors use one for their above ground pool. The water coming from the outlet is noticeably hot. He takes it in every winter and it hasn't sprung any leaks from the handling so it seems durable and effective enough for the price.
Quote from: The Architect on January 06, 2011, 06:32:45 AM
Any thoughts on those solar pool heater mat collectors?
http://cgi.ebay.com/4x20-Swim-Pool-Solar-Heater-Panel-w-Diverter-Kit-/180357483220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/4x20-Swim-Pool-Solar-Heater-Panel-w-Diverter-Kit-/180357483220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)
Looks interesting.
I'd need info on how many you can plumb in series before the temps become harmful to the panel itself, and the actual volume of the collector. The plumbing arrangement might not work with a drainback system due to connection location.
Also, I can't lay my panels on the ground for obvious reasons. How would you mount them at roughly 58 degrees?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 06, 2011, 06:40:28 AM
Looks interesting.
I'd need info on how many you can plumb in series before the temps become harmful to the panel itself, and the actual volume of the collector. The plumbing arrangement might not work with a drainback system due to connection location.
Also, I can't lay my panels on the ground for obvious reasons. How would you mount them at roughly 58 degrees?
My neighbor built a frame for his and they sit at 45deg. I think he has 2 15' mats in series. I will ask how it is secured. It would be fairly east to zip some screws into the flat area between/outside the capillary tubes.
Thanks.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 06, 2011, 06:40:28 AM
Also, I can't lay my panels on the ground for obvious reasons. How would you mount them at roughly 58 degrees?
I would consider creating a tray above your roofing to support the mats. I'm not exactly comfortable with sandwiching the roofing between the roofing underlayment and a non breathing material.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 06, 2011, 06:23:51 AM
I'll give you more efficient if you give me more expensive. :P
Why easier to control?
Of course I will. And that's based on experience............
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4289578580_8f8853ff6d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/32381491@N07/4289578580/)
100_1892 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/32381491@N07/4289578580/#) by anzalone22 (https://www.flickr.com/people/32381491@N07/), on Flickr
As for easier to control, the tubes can easily be removed or rotated in the summer when you don't need the heat. But you can also partially cover your own collector.
Who said the collectors were going on the roof? ;) I have plenty of space and as long as I can locate my array close to the tank freezing should not be an issue with proper pipe insulation.
I can also use a drainback system and overhangs which will eliminate overheating of the storage and the collectors.
I had a buddy that had an exchanger in his coal boiler.
He had to plumb his blow off valve outside. He also melted the dip tube. [laugh]
The controls for homemade collectors/exchangers are the same as factory built. I'm not married to copper either. While it is certainly more efficient than pex, simple coils of pex in the storage tank have been proven to work as exchangers, are cheap and last forever.
I think you just want me to spend more money. :-*
[thumbsup] for ground mounting.
I like spending other peoples money. ;D
It's my job. I'd like to think I'm good at it.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself.aspx (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself.aspx)
Hippie ;D
Quote from: The Architect on January 06, 2011, 10:31:09 AM
[thumbsup] for ground mounting.
I like spending other peoples money. ;D
It's my job. I'd like to think I'm good at it.
I'm a tough sell ya know.
Quote from: Dan on January 06, 2011, 01:41:24 PM
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself.aspx (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself.aspx)
Hippie ;D
This has nothing to do with my carbon footprint and everything to do with the current and more importantly future cost of fuel. ;)
If we can start getting some basic numbers, like tank size etc I can harass the thermal engineers at work. If we have no numbers I can tell them to give us some. ;)
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 06, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
If we can start getting some basic numbers, like tank size etc I can harass the thermal engineers at work. If we have no numbers I can tell them to give us some. ;)
I endorse this message. [beer]
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 06, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
If we can start getting some basic numbers, like tank size etc I can harass the thermal engineers at work. If we have no numbers I can tell them to give us some. ;)
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 06, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
If we can start getting some basic numbers, like tank size etc I can harass the thermal engineers at work. If we have no numbers I can tell them to give us some. ;)
You two friggin' engineers should try to keep up...how many pages did you skip in school? [roll]
It ain't rocket science bros... :-*
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=45467.msg822028#msg822028 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=45467.msg822028#msg822028)
I'll add...
the house is about 1800 sq'
also as stated before radiant in the slab with undecided radiant or fin tube on the second floor.
My plan is based on the premise that there's no substitute for cubic inches.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 06, 2011, 06:50:04 PM
You two friggin' engineers should try to keep up...how many pages did you skip in school? [roll]
To put it in perspective, your requirements are equivalent to me pulling up and telling you I want my bike painted.
We'll get you sorted though-but I'mma make you post an "I love engineers thread" when your feet are toasty warm. :-*
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 06, 2011, 06:54:29 PM
To put it in perspective, your requirements are equivalent to me pulling up and telling you I want my bike painted.
We'll get you sorted though-but I'mma make you post an "I love engineers thread" when your feet are toasty warm. :-*
Then...
instead of being obtuse...
tell me what want to know?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 06, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
Then...
instead of being obtuse...
tell me what want to know?
Idk-I'm not a thermal guy. :P
The "thermal guys" are going to say, "idk, we're not dhw and slab guys".
The suggestion to call Schuco wasn't any sort of "pitch" just a short path to the answer you seek. They size new systems all the time and I'm sure they have it down to a boilerplate calculation. The answer you are looking for might be but a phone call away......
Why a db system?
I think you're on your own on this one Nate.
Here's the problem, those guys like/want hard numbers. Even with the hard numbers it's a bit of witch craft. When you create your own collector and storage tank that make its hard to provide accurate values. i.e. how many btu's do you plan on getting out of your collector per day?
It would be best to talk to someone who has experience with this.
Based on my experience, if you can get that tank to 100 - 120 degrees and the insulation method your going to use will make heating that place a breeze. And with the 1000 gallon capacity, you'll go many days without sun.
It's going to be a bit of an experiment for you. If your home made collector isn't cutting it then you need to add more or modify it.
My only recommendation would be to avoid fin tube radiators on the second floor. You don't get much out of them at 100 degrees and they will needlessly draw a lot of heat out of the tank. I understand you're reluctance for the radiant flooring but it is done everyday on wood structures. You also have the option of using radiant boards.
The problem I see with radiant here is that it's inherently slow to react to temp swings, especially in the slab. ANother thing to consider is with this hybrid system you're proposing, you need to circulate different temps to make it work right. As frank pointed out, fin tube needs more than 100 degrees to work at all, same with radiant in the slab. Radiant in the floors above will likely need more than 100, but way less than the slab. In trying to make this simple, you're getting pretty complex
I havent been paying attention so if this has been covered.... well too bad.... [cheeky].
Have you considered a heat pump for DHW and adaption to hydronic heating? I've been running an older version of the thing below for a few years now.... mine has 3 large evap panels externally mounted on the roof... so its a little more efficient (and less noisy) than the new "compact" fan driven models, but the technology is the same..... Works well even in winter/at night (of course what I call winter almost never includes anything as severe as snow).
(http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/WebsiteResources/QuantumEnergy/images/photos/Quantum-Range---Domestic-Compact-150.jpg) (http://www.solarguys.com.au/graphics/quantum-heat-pump-diagram.jpg)
I like this as an idea for a larger do-it-yourself air-con>DHW conversion too:
(http://www.enviro-friendly.com/images/siddons-schematic-large.gif)
It constantly annoys me that I own one heat pump to extract heat from the environment for storage inside a unit to heat water....... and another heat pump to expel heat from a storage compartment into the environment to keep beer cold. Every household owns a fridge and a hot water service, these two units should learn to work together, dammit!
Quote from: Dan on January 07, 2011, 04:58:05 AM
The problem I see with radiant here is that it's inherently slow to react to temp swings, especially in the slab. ANother thing to consider is with this hybrid system you're proposing, you need to circulate different temps to make it work right. As frank pointed out, fin tube needs more than 100 degrees to work at all, same with radiant in the slab. Radiant in the floors above will likely need more than 100, but way less than the slab. In trying to make this simple, you're getting pretty complex
I don't think I'll have swings in the slab. I can make the system circulate water from the warm parts even if the system isn't calling for heat.
I'm not married to fin tube, I just don't want to be the guy to put a nail through the pex when the flooring goes down...do you?
You have to circulate 2 different temps with radiant on the second floor also. That's what mixing valves are for.
Quote from: rgramjet on January 07, 2011, 04:24:37 AM
The "thermal guys" are going to say, "idk, we're not dhw and slab guys".
The suggestion to call Schuco wasn't any sort of "pitch" just a short path to the answer you seek. They size new systems all the time and I'm sure they have it down to a boilerplate calculation. The answer you are looking for might be but a phone call away......
Why a db system?
I didn't take it as a pitch.
I have to use either drainback or glycol and drainback is more efficient as it requires one less HX
Quote from: ungeheuer on January 07, 2011, 05:04:06 AM
I havent been paying attention so if this has been covered.... well too bad.... [cheeky].
Have you considered a heat pump for DHW and adaption to hydronic heating? I've been running an older version of the thing below for a few years now.... mine has 3 large evap panels externally mounted on the roof... so its a little more efficient (and less noisy) than the new "compact" fan driven models, but the technology is the same..... Works well even in winter/at night (of course what I call winter almost never includes anything as severe as snow).
(http://www.quantumenergy.com.au/WebsiteResources/QuantumEnergy/images/photos/Quantum-Range---Domestic-Compact-150.jpg) (http://www.solarguys.com.au/graphics/quantum-heat-pump-diagram.jpg)
I like this as an idea for a larger do-it-yourself air-con>DHW conversion too:
(http://www.enviro-friendly.com/images/siddons-schematic-large.gif)
It constantly annoys me that I own one heat pump to extract heat from the environment for storage inside a unit to heat water....... and another heat pump to expel heat from a storage compartment into the environment to keep beer cold. Every household owns a fridge and a hot water service, these two units should learn to work together, dammit!
You're trying to confuse me...huh? :P
It's not the temp swings in the slab that are the problem. It's not unusual we get nights that are sub-zero and days in the 30's. The radiant just doesn't react fast enough and you wind up cold during the lows and hot when it warms up. Your high R value will help, but it's still something to be aware of. and mixing valves won't help if you need to circulate 160 water through the slab and you've only got 100.
I've put down lots of floors over tubing, and if you put a nail in it, either you or the plumbing installer screwed up. A glue-down floor is also an option
Quote from: Dan on January 07, 2011, 05:54:50 AM
It's not the temp swings in the slab that are the problem. It's not unusual we get nights that are sub-zero and days in the 30's. The radiant just doesn't react fast enough and you wind up cold during the lows and hot when it warms up. Your high R value will help, but it's still something to be aware of. and mixing valves won't help if you need to circulate 160 water through the slab and you've only got 100.
I've put down lots of floors over tubing, and if you put a nail in it, either you or the plumbing installer screwed up. A glue-down floor is also an option
I'm aware of the slow reaction time. There are devices that can anticipate to a certain extent and minimize the delay
Do you have any idea how much I'm looking forward to sweating in the winter in the house? ;D
Fin tube works at any temp over what you're looking for as room temp. It just doesn't work as fast. Plus I'm planning on having the solar water run through the fossil fuel device. It's easier to heat 100 degree water than 50 degree water.
I think Frank is right though about it killing the temp in the storage with it's requirements. I know wirsbo makes diffusers that not only increase floor contact, but also space the tubing off the deck. Maybe I'll just have you install the flooring. You don't seem scared. ;D
With the insulation system, even in the coldest of days, the slab will only require temps in the 80's. Maybe the 90's if he turns off the system and wants to get it going again. That is the beauty of the concrete slab. If he decides to cover the slab with carpet or wood then that's a different story. He will need higher temps.
His goal is to insulate well, get the mass up to temp, maintain the temp and boost the system if needed with propane.
The real difficulty will be getting the system as low maintenance as possible and the controls. Ugh the controls. Nate may have more patience than I. So the controls may not be as difficult for him.
Simple things to be cautious of; you don't want the propane to boost the storage tank, only the slab, you want to be able to temper the water in the warmer temps, where does the cooler water come from and you want to returnt hat cooler water to the storage tank, etc..................
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 06:06:58 AM
With the insulation system, even in the coldest of days, the slab will only require temps in the 80's. Maybe the 90's if he turns off the system and wants to get it going again. That is the beauty of the concrete slab. If he decides to cover the slab with carpet or wood then that's a different story. He will need higher temps.
His goal is to insulate well, get the mass up to temp, maintain the temp and boost the system if needed with propane.
The real difficulty will be getting the system as low maintenance as possible and the controls. Ugh the controls. Nate may have more patience than I. So the controls may not be as difficult for him.
Simple things to be cautious of; you don't want the propane to boost the storage tank, only the slab, you want to be able to temper the water in the warmer temps, where does the cooler water come from and you want to returnt hat cooler water to the storage tank, etc..................
That is one of the reasons for a drain back system...low maintenance.
We have a resident control expert on the forum...his services will be utilized. ;D
I think an anti scald valve will do all the tempering required for the DHW, and that valve requires no return as it only uses the volume of storage water required. A tempering valve does the same for the radiant heat. A back flow preventer will eliminate fossil fuel heating of the storage.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 06:14:04 AM
We have a resident control expert on the forum...his services will be utilized. ;D
Best move on your part [thumbsup]
And as far as the radiant heat on the second floor. Worst case scenario; you drive a nail through the tubing, the nail will actually seal well and not leak, the project is completed, eight months later you notice a clear water stain, you look for roof leaks but find nothing, the leak gets worse, you open the ceiling and curse Dan and Frank, T is completely annoyed she has just lived through construction and the last thing she needs is to deal with demolition dust and drywall dust, you make the repairs and live life happily ever after........... :)
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 06:06:58 AM
With the insulation system, even in the coldest of days, the slab will only require temps in the 80's. Maybe the 90's if he turns off the system and wants to get it going again. That is the beauty of the concrete slab. If he decides to cover the slab with carpet or wood then that's a different story. He will need higher temps.
His goal is to insulate well, get the mass up to temp, maintain the temp and boost the system if needed with propane.
The real difficulty will be getting the system as low maintenance as possible and the controls. Ugh the controls. Nate may have more patience than I. So the controls may not be as difficult for him.
Simple things to be cautious of; you don't want the propane to boost the storage tank, only the slab, you want to be able to temper the water in the warmer temps, where does the cooler water come from and you want to returnt hat cooler water to the storage tank, etc..................
I agree the controls are going to be the key. I don't think there are going to be off-the-shelf answers for what's going to be a very one-off system. Somehow he's got to have enough adjustability to make it work with some trial and error.
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 06:20:07 AM
Best move on your part [thumbsup]
And as far as the radiant heat on the second floor. Worst case scenario; you drive a nail through the tubing, the nail will actually seal well and not leak, the project is completed, eight months later you notice a clear water stain, you look for roof leaks but find nothing, the leak gets worse, you open the ceiling and curse Dan and Frank, T is completely annoyed she has just lived through construction and the last thing she needs is to deal with demolition dust and drywall dust, you make the repairs and live life happily ever after........... :)
\
Or. You do the floor above before the sheetrock below. Problem Solved ;D
One of the other advantages I have read of a DB system versus a glycol is the number of walls you need in any HEX'rs that come into contact with potable water. If you use a water DB all around, you can use single wall. If you use glycol, you need a double wall HEX. I can't remember if dp is planning on heating potable water with this system or just the slab???
mitt
One more thought, the instant domestic hot water heater, make sure to purchase one of newer systems. The older units are activated by a certain water flow and a delta water temp of 20 degrees. Sending 101 degree water through the unit when your asking it to create 120 degree will not get it to fire.
The newer unit look for a delta of 3 degrees and require much less flow (thanks to the new very low flow fixtures.)
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 06:20:07 AM
Best move on your part [thumbsup]
And as far as the radiant heat on the second floor. Worst case scenario; you drive a nail through the tubing, the nail will actually seal well and not leak, the project is completed, eight months later you notice a clear water stain, you look for roof leaks but find nothing, the leak gets worse, you open the ceiling and curse Dan and Frank, T is completely annoyed she has just lived through construction and the last thing she needs is to deal with demolition dust and drywall dust, you make the repairs and live life happily ever after........... :)
Should I tell him? :P
You make it sound so easy.
Quote from: Dan on January 07, 2011, 06:21:09 AM
I agree the controls are going to be the key. I don't think there are going to be off-the-shelf answers for what's going to be a very one-off system. Somehow he's got to have enough adjustability to make it work with some trial and error.
You know me...flexible Nate. ;D
I've lived my whole life that way. It shouldn't be that hard to use the same approach on a heating system.
I've been in contact with the guy that built the system I linked to. I may pay him to review my plan and make the changes he feels are necessary to have it work as well as is possible.
I don't expect to get all my heat and DHW out of any system...home or factory built. I just need to reduce my fossil fuel usage because of current, and more importantly, future cost.
Quote from: Dan on January 07, 2011, 06:22:35 AM
\
Or. You do the floor above before the sheetrock below. Problem Solved ;D
I already thought of that. [thumbsup]
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 06:28:46 AM
One more thought, the instant domestic hot water heater, make sure to purchase one of newer systems. The older units are activated by a certain water flow and a delta water temp of 20 degrees. Sending 101 degree water through the unit when your asking it to create 120 degree will not get it to fire.
The newer unit look for a delta of 3 degrees and require much less flow (thanks to the new very low flow fixtures.)
Already considered. I'm thinking Tagaki...will fire with as low as 15 psi flow. Not sure of the delta T. I can get engineering info easily.
The house I'm living in has in-floor radiant. Slow reacting is a gross understatement, the proper word is glacial.
One of my projects is to add tube and fin baseboard on the first and secondfloor. I'll take the ~140* - 150*f return water from the baseboard and use that to feed the (existing) tempering valve that feeds the pex tubing runs.
As to drain back systems, a house we lived in Coal Creek Canyon had a drain back DHW solar system. Works great until it doesn't quite drain all the water, then pipes on the roof freeze, and burst. PITA
Go with a heat exchanger pumping a cheap vodka water mix. Much easier.
For controls, ir it were me I'd go with a PLC. Allen Bradley SLC 500's are over kill, but they're readly available, reliable, and easy to modify.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALLEN-BRADLEY-1746-A4-SLC-500-4-SLOT-RACK-W-MODULES-/220703876224?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item3362f9e480 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ALLEN-BRADLEY-1746-A4-SLC-500-4-SLOT-RACK-W-MODULES-/220703876224?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item3362f9e480)
Then if the system doesn't respond the way you want, it's a simple matter to plug in the laptop (any PC), and tweak the logic.
Quote from: sno_duc on January 07, 2011, 07:04:06 AM
The house I'm living in has in-floor radiant. Slow reacting is a gross understatement, the proper word is glacial.
One of my projects is to add tube and fin baseboard on the first and secondfloor. I'll take the ~140* - 150*f return water from the baseboard and use that to feed the (existing) tempering valve that feeds the pex tubing runs.
As to drain back systems, a house we lived in Coal Creek Canyon had a drain back DHW solar system. Works great until it doesn't quite drain all the water, then pipes on the roof freeze, and burst. PITA
Go with a heat exchanger pumping a cheap vodka water mix. Much easier.
I helped install a pex slab...it works great.
Wny did the system not drain? Poor install, or a failure of a component?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 07:19:55 AM
I helped install a pex slab...it works great.
Wny did the system not drain? Poor install, or a failure of a component?
It had 2 panels, the interconnect pipe had a flat run that was prone to trapping water. Nature of the roof design and where the panels had to be mounted. Could never think of a way around it.
Quote from: sno_duc on January 07, 2011, 07:31:13 AM
It had 2 panels, the interconnect pipe had a flat run that was prone to trapping water. Nature of the roof design and where the panels had to be mounted. Could never think of a way around it.
I can get around that.
My collectors will be ground mounted and properly sloped to eliminate that possibility.
What I need to figure out is max distance between collectors and tank so I can use the db system without freeze up here. I'm also willing to insulate the hell out of it.
I think the drain back system is a good process. But it sounds like it's a step that can be avoided. I know the glycol decreases efficiency but it would be nice to not have to deal with drain back.
When coming up with these alternative systems I like to keep them simple.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 06:34:40 AM
You know me...flexible Nate. ;D
But I think your case might be different. ;D
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 02:51:31 PM
I think the drain back system is a good process. But it sounds like it's a step that can be avoided. I know the glycol decreases efficiency but it would be nice to not have to deal with drain back.
When coming up with these alternative systems I like to keep them simple.
But I think your case might be different. ;D
But there are considerations with glycol also. The maintenance is higher as the glycol has to be monitored, there are corrosion issues with pumps, and if double wall hx are required for potable water it would make it a definite no go for me.
What are you trying to say? :P
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 06:14:04 AM
We have a resident control expert on the forum...his services will be utilized. ;D
Cool, an expert? Never met one of them.
Quote from: The Architect on January 07, 2011, 02:51:31 PM
I think the drain back system is a good process. But it sounds like it's a step that can be avoided. I know the glycol decreases efficiency but it would be nice to not have to deal with drain back.
When coming up with these alternative systems I like to keep them simple.
But I think your case might be different. ;D
Set it up so whenever the house isn't calling for heat, keep the water circulating so it doesn't freeze. Maybe a loop out in the driveway so you won't have to plow either
Quote from: lethe on January 07, 2011, 03:09:01 PM
Cool, an expert? Never met one of them.
How about someone that can figure shit out? ;D
Quote from: Dan on January 07, 2011, 03:09:32 PM
Set it up so whenever the house isn't calling for heat, keep the water circulating so it doesn't freeze. Maybe a loop out in the driveway so you won't have to plow either
I don't think it's necessary.
The system is being used in Montana as we speak. Been up for 3 years with no issues.
The driveway loop would kill the storage...unless I just use it in the summer.
I'll have T shovel. [roll] [laugh]
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:13:15 PM
How about someone that can figure shit out? ;D
That I can do, but I've stayed out of this thread until now because I don't know sizing of stuff.
When it comes time to buy valves and actuators though, let me know first as I probably can get them cheaper for you.
The Belimos in my basement only cost me $50 apiece.
Quote from: lethe on January 07, 2011, 03:16:58 PM
That I can do, but I've stayed out of this thread until now because I don't know sizing of stuff.
When it comes time to buy valves and actuators though, let me know first as I probably can get them cheaper for you.
The Belimos in my basement only cost me $50 apiece.
I have another riding buddy in the plumbing heating supply biz....http://alport.com/ (http://alport.com/) She's the president of the company. I'm planning on using her for the on demand heater/s and pex. Probably fixtures too. I'll definitely check with you when it's time to price stuff.
What's a Belimos?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:16:01 PM
I don't think it's necessary.
The system is being used in Montana as we speak. Been up for 3 years with no issues.
The driveway loop would kill the storage...unless I just use it in the summer.
I'll have T shovel. [roll] [laugh]
Stash bacon randomly under the snow, Zip'll get through it in a heartbeat
I know nothing about DB systems, so anything I have to contribute is nonsense
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:23:52 PM
I have another riding buddy in the plumbing heating supply biz....http://alport.com/ (http://alport.com/) She's the president of the company. I'm planning on using her for the on demand heater/s and pex. Probably fixtures too. I'll definitely check with you when it's time to price stuff.
What's a Belimos?
Belimo is a company that makes actuators.
Stuff like this http://www.belimo.us/ishop/category/node/10076/chapter/10161_10076/subchapter/10166_10161_10076.xml (http://www.belimo.us/ishop/category/node/10076/chapter/10161_10076/subchapter/10166_10161_10076.xml)
I forgot which ball valve ones I got downstairs and don't feel like looking but $50 is cheap
Glycol?!? Use cheap (rot gut) vodka. Offers freeze protection and in a pinch you can make screwdrivers.
Quote from: lethe on January 07, 2011, 03:26:41 PM
Belimo is a company that makes actuators.
Stuff like this http://www.belimo.us/ishop/category/node/10076/chapter/10161_10076/subchapter/10166_10161_10076.xml (http://www.belimo.us/ishop/category/node/10076/chapter/10161_10076/subchapter/10166_10161_10076.xml)
I forgot which ball valve ones I got downstairs and don't feel like looking but $50 is cheap
I've never seen an automatic ball valve before. :o :o
That...
is cool.
You and I do need to talk though. ;)
Quote from: sno_duc on January 07, 2011, 03:28:25 PM
Glycol?!? Use cheap (rot gut) vodka. Offers freeze protection and in a pinch you can make screwdrivers.
You are suggesting alcohol abuse...It's like spilling it.
I would never treat vodka like that. ;D
Also, remember my actual job description is software programmer so I can't promise that I can build a pretty control panel, working yes, pretty no.
Here's what I spent the last few days on.
Began as this, 20 year old panel that was getting so new field devices added to and didn't have the extra capacity as is.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/IMG00156-20101101-0954.jpg)
Made this out of it, like I said not pretty but it works. Had to work with everything live too.
And yes, the bottom one is crooked. :P
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/IMG00195-20110107-1311.jpg)
Quote from: lethe on January 07, 2011, 03:33:55 PM
Also, remember my actual job description is software programmer so I can't promise that I can build a pretty control panel, working yes, pretty no.
Here's what I spent the last few days on.
Began as this, 20 year old panel that was getting so new field devices added to and didn't have the extra capacity as is.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/IMG00156-20101101-0954.jpg)
Made this out of it, like I said not pretty but it works. Had to work with everything live too.
And yes, the bottom one is crooked. :P
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/IMG00195-20110107-1311.jpg)
That's pretty enough for me.
You do ventilation too?
I have crazy ideas for my HRV too. ;D
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:30:31 PM
I've never seen an automatic ball valve before. :o :o
That...
is cool.
You and I do need to talk though. ;)
semi automatic, something does have to send it a signal. ;)
Could be something as simple as a thermostat.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:37:38 PM
That's pretty enough for me.
You do ventilation too?
I have crazy ideas for my HRV too. ;D
sure, I found the perfect attic exhaust fan for you the other day when I ordered the exhaust fan for the dishroom [cheeky]
http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-EF-RE-RTA/LFI-RTA60T32000M.html (http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-EF-RE-RTA/LFI-RTA60T32000M.html)
thats one hell of a fart fan
Quote from: bobspapa on January 07, 2011, 03:47:20 PM
thats one hell of a fart fan
Since his house is going to be sealed so well, it will probably pull last week's farts back out of the bowl.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:30:31 PM
You are suggesting alcohol abuse...It's like spilling it.
I would never treat vodka like that. ;D
Didn't you see the Top Gear episode where Cap'n slow drove a Toyota PU up to an erupting volcano in Iceland. The tire cooling system used a water / vodka mix, so as to not pollute the glacier.
In you're case use straight vodka, then you'll have a reserve for the next dimby. Don't think of it as abuse, just making it earn it's keep while in storage. Be sure to plumb in a
beer vodka tap at the low point in the system.
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:00:02 PM
What are you trying to say? :P
Keep it simple. [thumbsup]
Quote from: humorless dp on January 07, 2011, 03:16:01 PM
I'll have T shovel. [roll] [laugh]
I don't know what to say...................
If she does shovel, let me know how you did it.Quote from: lethe on January 07, 2011, 03:33:55 PM
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/IMG00156-20101101-0954.jpg)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/IMG00195-20110107-1311.jpg)
I told you the controls can be a pregnant dog!!!!
http://www.americanaldes.com/ (http://www.americanaldes.com/)
Don't know much about them but I got a pretty brochure for a stress skin house I was gonna build
Quote from: sno_duc on January 07, 2011, 03:55:32 PM
Didn't you see the Top Gear episode where Cap'n slow drove a Toyota PU up to an erupting volcano in Iceland. The tire cooling system used a water / vodka mix, so as to not pollute the glacier.
In you're case use straight vodka, then you'll have a reserve for the next dimby. Don't think of it as abuse, just making it earn it's keep while in storage. Be sure to plumb in a beer vodka tap at the low point in the system.
probably need all stainless piping otherwise it might get nasty
Quote from: lethe on January 07, 2011, 03:41:41 PM
semi automatic, something does have to send it a signal. ;)
Could be something as simple as a thermostat.
sure, I found the perfect attic exhaust fan for you the other day when I ordered the exhaust fan for the dishroom [cheeky]
http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-EF-RE-RTA/LFI-RTA60T32000M.html (http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-EF-RE-RTA/LFI-RTA60T32000M.html)
Quote from: bobspapa on January 07, 2011, 03:47:20 PM
thats one hell of a fart fan
That would suck more that farts out of this house. :o :o :o
The make up air duct would be big enough for me to fit through.
Quote from: Dan on January 07, 2011, 03:57:42 PM
http://www.americanaldes.com/ (http://www.americanaldes.com/)
Don't know much about them but I got a pretty brochure for a stress skin house I was gonna build
Bookmarked
Quote from: bobspapa on January 07, 2011, 03:47:20 PM
thats one hell of a fart fan
i have one of those...looks like a big wart on the side of my place.
it needs to go.
Just to dig up this thread...
We're currently looking into retrofitting hydronic into our place as part of a basement build-out
Tubing in concrete installation on top of the existing basement slab and stapling to the (currently exposed) subfloor for the 2nd floor.
We don't have nearly the same problems that DP has since temps here only occasionally drop into the bitter mid-40s ( ;D ), if we could boost the water temps with a collector that'd be great and I'd love to take advantage of an evaporative cooler to use the system for a mild sort of AC in the summertime.
Seems like an evaporative system is never going to cool things below the dewpoint, so there's no worries about condensation on the radiators, but for the life of me I can't find anyone doing this.
Which probably means this is a terrible idea, but I figured I'd ask the DML just in case...
Just because no one is doing it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It may very well be, but people sell what customers can get federal rebates on.
Cooling towers are used in large buildings, is that along the lines of what you're thinking?
I was looking at a few different models of evaporative heat exchangers.
Then I did some research on the wet-bulb vs. dry bulb temps here in San Francisco... This area isn't a great candidate for a system like this, I'm afraid.
A system like this would be great anywhere where it's hot and relatively dry (The SE and the NE) but anywhere else, it's not ideal. And in some areas (notably the deep south) it'd be useless.
Ah well. Mind you, it might work well with a ground-based heat exchanger but it'd need a good control system to keep the water temp at or above the dew point.