The 4 bolts that hold the two piece calipers together - what is the appropriate torque value for this? (Not the one in the owners manual that describes the caliper mounting bolts that attach caliper to fork bottom).
I've seen 29NM dry, 30-35nm with loctite, and 40NM when searching online. I had at one time found a definitive answer for this but cannot locate the bookmark.
I talking about the 4 bolts seen along the top edge of the caliper, shown here:
http://tinyurl.com/4ehhvgl (http://tinyurl.com/4ehhvgl)
(because i want 'em too look this good on the other 900 too)
No loctite.
I torque mine (goldline and otherwise) to 25 ft lbs which is about 35 nm. If you MUST use loctite, do not use Red, use the thread seal or blue. I've built dozens with this, no problems.
why no loctite on what seems like critical area?
next questiooooon. ti bolts. i have always used antiseize. would antiseize be unwise in this application?
I'd use something on the threads to keep them from seizing.
Grease or anti-seize I'd think.
You might want to up the torque a few pounds to compensate for the lubed threads.
good news. just got word back from Allen @ TPO (they make the Ti through-bolts or pinch bolts) and he said
QuoteI have always used 35 NM with loctite and never had a problem
That's two of you and that seems quite alright with me.
Quote from: a m on February 14, 2011, 02:35:55 PM
good news. just got word back from Allen @ TPO (they make the Ti through-bolts or pinch bolts) and he said
That's two of you and that seems quite alright with me.
Did he say what color loctite?
I agree with 'Tiz about no red.
he did not.
and if you are thinking no red, then i shall use blue.
I would use Green 29000 or Blue. 29000 is yet a weaker form of loctite.
The screws are torque and there is no lateral stress to loosen them. Unlike some materials, the caliper bodies do not expand much.
Blue or Green 29000. (there are two types of green)
It's settled then. ;D
Don't use the green sleeve retainer. You'll never get them out. [laugh]
These are going on a set of the billet 2-piece calipers, so "goldline" is misleading, except that everything seems to be identical so far when taking them part.
Quote from: a m on February 14, 2011, 03:07:53 PM
These are going on a set of the billet 2-piece calipers, so "goldline" is misleading, except that everything seems to be identical so far when taking them part.
It's still a caliper.
Don't confuse yourself with over thinking. ;)
Quote from: ducpainter on February 14, 2011, 03:06:45 PM
It's settled then. ;D
Don't use the green sleeve retainer. You'll never get them out. [laugh]
yeah, that's the other Green Loctite. Not for threads.
The only thing I still need is 1 o-ring that seals the two caliper halves together. I've got one good one, now I just need a source for the other.
Apparently that will prove more difficult than most other tasks, as the parts fiche don't break down far enough to give me a part number for that o-ring, and apparently Brembo doesn't do 'spares' for regular machines.
Any thoughts on how to find replacement seals / o-rings for the Brembo calipers? They are the 30/34's. I can "kind of" measure the one O-ring I have (approx. 1.5mm thick, 10mm OD, 6mm ID), but then when it comes to material for use in brakes, it seems difficult (does Aflas take the #1 spot? Can't find a perfect match on McMaster-Carr)
Yoyodyne sells kits for older bikes.
I wonder if the o-rings changed all that much from the older style calipers to now?
http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3017 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3017)
there is a metric gasket seller in NJ that has a full line of EPDM gaskets of all kinds.. i've ordered from them in the past and they do small quantities. let me see if i can dig their info out.
Let me know if you come up with anything. I got a reply back from Bevel Heaven, but I'm not sure what it means - I asked if the small o-ring in the old kits would be the same:
He said
QuoteYep they all use the same orange between the halves.
Now. I read that to mean the color of the O-ring he's referring to was the red/orange one while mine is black (I don't know which materials come in orange, but is obviously different than the black or the green). Or he's on an iPhone that autocorrected from O-Ring to Orange.
Thoughts?
And I've read so many positive reviews and even a friend racing BMW cars uses it, I can't pass up the opportunity to use ATE Super Blue racing brake fluid. I was farting around the .MS board and sure enough, its barely lower on the boiling point than RBF 600, but is supposed to be better about absorbing moisture. Also, with clear lines, they look like blue lines and the M900 'W' that its going on has blue accents all about it, such as the handlebar.
If it's a standard sized o-ring (and it almost certainly is) you can probably go to your local seal house (most major metro areas have one or more....look for the words "seal" and/or "rubber" in the title) and just select a replacement from their bin very inexpensively.
When selecting an o-ring for use with automotive brake fluid, though, you have to be careful with materials. Most commercial o-rings are made from buna n (also called nitrile rubber) and this isn't satisfactory for use with brake fluid. Instead, select one made from Teflon (commonly available), Butyl, Ethylene-Propylene (EPDM...also commonly available and most often used in braking systems), Styrene Butadiene, or Aflas.
You can refer to this chart to see if your o-ring is standard: http://www.allorings.com/size_cross_reference_framed.htm (http://www.allorings.com/size_cross_reference_framed.htm)
You can order o-rings in lots of 50 made from EPDM here:
http://www.allorings.com/cgi-bin/CatalogMgr.pl?cartID=b-5842&SearchField=category&SearchFor=EPDM+O-Rings&template=Htx/order_epdm.htx&hdr=Order+EPDM+O-Rings&displayNumber=369 (http://www.allorings.com/cgi-bin/CatalogMgr.pl?cartID=b-5842&SearchField=category&SearchFor=EPDM+O-Rings&template=Htx/order_epdm.htx&hdr=Order+EPDM+O-Rings&displayNumber=369)
50 pieces generally run between $5 and $10, though it'd be much less expensive to buy one locally if you can find what you need.
Good luck!
Cloner
ABQ, NM
Very cool. I had found a near fit version in Aflas on McMaster but it wasn't perfect. Measuring isn't so easy since I'm certain that this o-ring (the "good" one) has deformed over the years and my calipers are garbage.
I suppose "close" will get me there. I can't brainstorm a reason against erring on the slightly thicker side, since it gets squashed between the calipers, can you?
Call these guys:
http://www.alliedmetrics.com/ (http://www.alliedmetrics.com/)
They will have every type and size and material. You want EPDM for this, and I would try getting several gaskets in 0.5mm steps to see what will fit the best. They'll work with you.
well its been said several times, including from Fred at yoyodyne, that EPDM is what I want. Since I'm shopping with little immediacy, is it the same as the original equipment on the calipers, and is it the best for 'high-heat' + brake fluid, or is another rubber even better? Not that I think moto calipers hanging out in the breeze get "that" hot like car calipers, I'm just curious.
Next up. The billet calipers I have are, in some areas, cosmetically challenged. This includes the logo paint (its fill-in the groove red) and there's some external corrosion in spots (nothing in the cylinder bores, they are perfect. Same with the pad travel area for that matter).
while I've seen people paint calipers (I assume with automobile caliper paint like G2), I was curious as to re-anodizing these. Or hard anodizing these. And then later coming back to refill in the recessed logo.
The original is natural rubber. Epdm is superior in every way
Quote from: ducpainter on February 14, 2011, 04:56:06 PM
Yoyodyne sells kits for older bikes.
I wonder if the o-rings changed all that much from the older style calipers to now?
http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3017 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3017)
Got word back from Bevel Heaven. That 'joining' O-Ring is indeed identical on the old ones and new ones.
i'm going to venture over to the KTM dealer on Friday hopefully to see if they have a seals kit in stock, and if so, if it comes with the necessary middle o-rings, and get a price.
Kind of want the EPDM o rings now though. I will get in touch with the allied metrics folks shortly as well.
So, thoughts about hard anodizing these calipers?
QTMI has the rebuild kits for the 30/34 calipers for $50/caliper - comes with 4 piston seals, 4 dust seals, the center O-Ring. I'm guessing these are "brembo" pieces, so not the EPDM o-ring.
I might choose to get both.
http://www.qtmi.com/ (http://www.qtmi.com/)
Did you find those kits on their website?
Quote from: a m on February 15, 2011, 06:00:20 PM
QTMI has the rebuild kits for the 30/34 calipers for $50/caliper - comes with 4 piston seals, 4 dust seals, the center O-Ring. I'm guessing these are "brembo" pieces, so not the EPDM o-ring.
I might choose to get both.
http://www.qtmi.com/ (http://www.qtmi.com/)
No, i busted out some serious googling and that's when I learned about KTM calipers and seals, and Harley calipers and seals (all related to Brembo rebuilds) and I found QTMI.
I emailed through their website and was responded to by Tara P.
This is a pretty good company bio at the beginning: http://www.qtmi.com/MEDIA/Catalog/DownloadPDF.pdf (http://www.qtmi.com/MEDIA/Catalog/DownloadPDF.pdf)
Things I learned, or at least, I think I learned:
Brembo does not sell rebuild parts for modern / oem calipers. Complete bullshit.
The immediately preceding line does not apply to KTM.
KTM uses a lot of the same calipers as Ducati including the Goldline series and the Monoblocks.
This means that one can get rebuild seals and such for their Ducati calipers from the KTM dealer. The seals kits are shown in the parts fiches online.
2000-2002 KTM Duke II for goldlines
RC8R for monoblocs
Quote from: a m on February 15, 2011, 06:24:31 PM
Things I learned, or at least, I think I learned:
Brembo does not sell rebuild parts for modern / oem calipers. Complete bullshit.
The immediately preceding line does not apply to KTM.
KTM uses a lot of the same calipers as Ducati including the Goldline series and the Monoblocks.
This means that one can get rebuild seals and such for their Ducati calipers from the KTM dealer. The seals kits are shown in the parts fiches online.
2000-2002 KTM Duke II for goldlines
RC8R for monoblocs
Re read what you wrote...
Quote from: a m on February 15, 2011, 06:00:20 PM
QTMI has the rebuild kits for the 30/34 calipers for $50/caliper - comes with 4 piston seals, 4 dust seals, the center O-Ring. I'm guessing these are "brembo" pieces, so not the EPDM o-ring.
I might choose to get both.
http://www.qtmi.com/ (http://www.qtmi.com/)
i've used the brembo rebuild kits for the older calipers and they are natural rubber.
the main advantage of the EPDM is that it is DOT5 compatible, but also will last a jillion years longer. natural rubber will absorb some moisture but epdm wont.
i meant that you can't get brembo rebuild stuff, or so it seems, by going to the place where you want to go - the duc dealer. they just sell complete calipers.
that's apparently true for harley davidson too - you can't get brembo seals for your brembo equipped harley at the dealer. just complete calipers (those guys pregnant dog about it because they have to remove all the seals and such when taking calipers apart to chrome them)
yadda yadda yadda
not true for KTM. unlike the other bike manufacturers, they DO sell the caliper rebuild kits - seals, o-rings, pistons, you name it.
so i learned first that it was not possible, and i was frustrated. then i learned some more about the calipers and did more searching. then i learned about other manufacturers, and lo and behold, KTM was happy to sell some rebuild kits.
so, if you are interested in rebuilding the brembo calipers on your ducati, all that is required is figuring out which KTM bike has the same calipers, and heading down to the KTM dealer to get the seals that ducati can't or won't sell you.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 15, 2011, 06:31:21 PM
i've used the brembo rebuild kits for the older calipers and they are natural rubber.
the main advantage of the EPDM is that it is DOT5 compatible, but also will last a jillion years longer. natural rubber will absorb some moisture but epdm wont.
i like the idea of that seal lasting longer. it makes me wonder if the pressures seals would be available in EPDM, or if the piston sliding across it would wear on it differently.
My point was that Brembo, in fact, does not sell any parts for current models.
KTM does and Ducati doesn't.
KTM have a suck ass lawyer?
Quote from: a m on February 15, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
i like the idea of that seal lasting longer. it makes me wonder if the pressures seals would be available in EPDM, or if the piston sliding across it would wear on it differently.
call the guys at allied metric, they were very helpful.
i was trying to find a replacement for a Paso 750 clutch slave piston that was better than the original. he suggested a funky "U-cup" design and it works like a frigging charm.
they also stock o-rings in colors so if you wanted lavender orings in your calipers for whatever reason (color-code your rebuilds) they can do that.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 15, 2011, 06:37:05 PM
My point was that Brembo, in fact, does not sell any parts for current models.
KTM does and Ducati doesn't.
KTM have a suck ass lawyer?
Haha, perhaps. Perhaps it was also some type of contractual arrangement in which KTM was given a privilege in exchange for the sacrifice of several goats or some other promise Brembo might be interested in.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 15, 2011, 06:39:28 PM
call the guys at allied metric, they were very helpful.
i was trying to find a replacement for a Paso 750 clutch slave piston that was better than the original. he suggested a funky "U-cup" design and it works like a frigging charm.
they also stock o-rings in colors so if you wanted lavender orings in your calipers for whatever reason (color-code your rebuilds) they can do that.
well hell yes I want some froo froo colored O-rings! i'd like the full Froot Loops treatment, please.
Quote from: a m on February 15, 2011, 06:45:00 PM
Haha, perhaps. Perhaps it was also some type of contractual arrangement in which KTM was given a privilege in exchange for the sacrifice of several goats or some other promise Brembo might be interested in.
well hell yes I want some froo froo colored O-rings! i'd like the full Froot Loops treatment, please.
Much simpler...KTM assumes liability.
I think lavender is appropriate. [laugh]
i may get them in blue if its really no different - the bike has blue accents. They'll match (even though you won't see them). Its all about the feng shui of your motorcycle these days.
Quote from: a m on February 15, 2011, 07:12:43 PM
i may get them in blue if its really no different - the bike has blue accents. They'll match (even though you won't see them). Its all about the feng shui of your motorcycle these days.
Nope...
it's all about tooling on you for having purple/lavender o-rings. [laugh]
i was thinking more chemical-specific color coding, i don't know why "lavendar" came out. wife is looking at colors to paint the bathroom, go figure.
Got a moment of available phone time today so I will call about those EPDM O-rings, meanwhile I was able to get in contact with Fred at Yoyodyne, and the 30/34 piston&seals kit does indeed have the little O-rings too. I figure if the calipers are apart I can replace the seals and once-over everything while I'm in there.
Still pondering coloring the calipers. Did some poking around and saw that some folks have used KG GunKote to do the job, as it is supposed to protect, wear well, and while thin it is pretty hard since you bake it on.
Ears are open to anyone with thoughts on this.
The torque value charts for generic bolts I see show 24-25 ft lbs (35NM) dry threads for M8 fasteners at the 10.9 Grade, the lower grade bolts got a lower torque...
Wonder where the dealer got their information - the shop manual had nothing for me when I dropped by AMS the other day and went through the binders in the service office.
Hmm... I do 'spose I could refer to such handy charts as this one if I may use Ti bolts:
http://store.mettec.com/tech (http://store.mettec.com/tech)
<Sorry, I deleted the post as I don't trust my own memory right now.>
That's just the number they threw at us, and as they had the parts (which were a pain in the ass to find), we believed them. I was slightly suprised at how low the number was, but we used it anyway. I won't post the number as I don't want to get flack if someone uses it and their shit falls apart. :P
How do u get the calipers apart??? the Hex bolts are made of cheese and even with quality tools and held in a strong vise the dont budge but deform and an airgun makes no difference.
step one: are you using a brand new(ish) allen socket? Gotta have those sharp edges.
step two: if i predict trouble, i get pretty liberal with the pblaster penetrating catalyst bolt-un-stickum spray.
step three: i'm not afraid to put fire onto something
the bolts on the goldline calipers (the oem calipers) are WAY shittier than the ones on the 2-piece billet 30/34 pistons (the goldlines in billet without dust seals, as it were). different grade steel bolt and the heads on the billet calipers' bolts is more of a regular socket head taking a larger hex than the 5mm or so hex you have to use on the goldlines.
on the goldlines, 3 of those bolts were seized up really tight, and one faked me out pretty good too.
on the billets, 0 of the bolts presented issue.
Fire. not always good for the finish.
Pick up a couple of soldering guns. The bigger ones with the two-part electrode. remove the electrode and connect 8ga wire to each electrode and then to the ends of the bolt. the bolt heats up because it is alloy steel and transfers the current well. it heats up and the caliper stays mostly cool.
don't ask me how many times i've done it and wished i was more careful tho.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 16, 2011, 04:45:26 AM
i was thinking more chemical-specific color coding, i don't know why "lavendar" came out. wife is looking at colors to paint the bathroom, go figure.
I've been working on a satellite transmission unit and it has two different colors for the o-rings on the transmission boom. green for non-conductive, black for conductive (or vice versa, don't have the spec sheet in front of me). but the point is, colors may definitely have some meaning.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 17, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
Fire. not always good for the finish.
Pick up a couple of soldering guns. The bigger ones with the two-part electrode. remove the electrode and connect 8ga wire to each electrode and then to the ends of the bolt. the bolt heats up because it is alloy steel and transfers the current well. it heats up and the caliper stays mostly cool.
don't ask me how many times i've done it and wished i was more careful tho.
i used type 2 child-safe fire.
on a serious note, i've blow torched (butane, on low) a pair of goldlines before to warm around the pinch bolts - these calipers were originally equipped on the m900 i just picked up for my wife to piddle around on - i knew they were going to be junk and wanted to know what was on the innards, because when i went to flush them with fresh brake fluid, mud-colored 'stuff' came out. (the brake lines were new so it wasn't them...)
i don't know much about disassembling a soldering iron or its electrodes, so i'd have to skip over that one. unless you can youtube a how-to, lest i end up with neat scorch marks on my hands.
I don't know much about anodizing brake calipers, AM, but I can't see where either color anodizing or hard anodizing would present a problem as long as the appropriate seal glands, oil passages, and bores are properly masked. I've seen tons of powder coated units, though, so I know that can be done.
I'm pretty sure the OE seals in the caliper are EPDM, as nitrile rubber is unsuitable for dynamic sealing in any type of brake fluid. I could see Brembo MAYBE skimping on the o-ring between caliper halves, as that is a static joint (though nitrile rubber is still unsuited to that task, too), but they certainly wouldn't skimp on the dynamic (moving) joints due to the liability issues involved.
Taking out the cheese-headed bolts is easy. Get a drill the same size as the bolt (8mm), then drill through the head, making sure the drill is well centered.....a task aided by the fact that the hex is centered... and when you get past it the head will fall off if the bit was well centered. If not, you may have to use an 8.5mm bit to finish off the missed material to remove the head. Once all bolts or bolt heads are removed, disassemble the caliper then remove the remainder of the bolt(s) with vice grips. Easy!! No heat required. [thumbsup]
Whilst we're talking about brakes, I'm currently working on a 1098s with monoblock calipers. The right caliper has a double banjo bolt that hits the wheel and prevents removal of the caliper unless the pistons are fully retracted....and that's with worn pads. I need to install new pads and I wondered if anyone has a "trick" that will allow me to avoid removing that double banjo bolt and what I believe will be a pain in the ass bleeding job (since the banjo is a high point in the caliper area)?
Anybody got a cool trick I might borrow?!? Please!! ???
Hmm... I may have a tip for you this afternoon - I'm going to run down to AMS to pick up a bucket of crushwashers as I have run out and want to plan ahead for reassembly day. I will ask Jordan what he does to work around this.
(you could ditch those 330s in favor of 320 [cheeky])
How about removing the pads on that caliper?
Quote from: Cloner on February 19, 2011, 09:17:40 AM
~~~SNIP~~~
Whilst we're talking about brakes, I'm currently working on a 1098s with monoblock calipers. The right caliper has a double banjo bolt that hits the wheel and prevents removal of the caliper unless the pistons are fully retracted....and that's with worn pads. I need to install new pads and I wondered if anyone has a "trick" that will allow me to avoid removing that double banjo bolt and what I believe will be a pain in the ass bleeding job (since the banjo is a high point in the caliper area)?
Anybody got a cool trick I might borrow?!? Please!! ???
Quote from: Speeddog on February 19, 2011, 09:50:54 AM
How about removing the pads on that caliper?
I'm not sure there's room....but I'll try that. Thanks, 'Dog.
Rebuild kits came in today from yoyodyne. Contrary to what Fred said, there is no o ring to connect the halves. Not cool that he said the kits did have em... and then they were absent.
Wrong said Fred
I hate it when that happens. [bang]
I was still planning on getting the EPDM o-rings... but it would have been really nice to have some authentic Brembo o-rings to have as spares, and more importantly - I was half intending on sending at least one of them to QTM Inc or the o-ring specific manufacturers listed earlier in this thread to make sure I get correct sized rings.
Also would have been nice to verify that the one I have in "good condition" is still the same size as it came originally - not shrunken or expanded from being immersed in brake fluid over the years... I don't think measuring O-rings is as trivial as measuring fork diameters - O-rings flex and squish and such. It appears to be the #10 size, but it would be nice to make sure, ya feel me?
The other thing that kind of plucks the short and curlies, is that these kits are not inexpensive. The 30/34 Piston/Seal kit for 4 Piston GP Caliper Brembo (120.2799.50) is $48.70 per caliper. I certainly don't mind replacing the pressure seals (even if those seals didn't leak) or even pistons (even though they showed no pitting at all), but the one thing I wanted isn't a part of the kit.
And really, Brembo, if you are going to make an overhaul kit, include the damn center O-ring and new steel bolts for that price. I also grabbed the pin/clip kits ($9.15/ea) - but again, if you are doing an overhaul, you ought to replace the pin that the pads slide on so there's no stiction there either - should be included with the kit (and available separately for non overhaul replacements).
The quote from QTMI was "about $50" and included "the middle O-ring and the 4 dust seals which aren't used on the GP 30/34s, just the goldlines". Well hell, I went with Fred at yoyodyne since he's supposed to be the go-to guy, but I would give these folks a shot next time too. (Didn't help that Fred didn't want to give me a price on the Ti rear axle for the 851/888/M shown on their website). Good news related to axle though, my rear axle (and a spare 20mm front axle with threaded bush for fork lower, and DSS swingarm pivot) are off to TPO for some measurements. Perhaps others would be interested in lighter alternatives as well (I know that my axles are starting to look a little ragged from repeated installation and removal over the years - it is more than 10 years old, and many of the parts go back even further!)
Oh, and local guy does Cerakote. I think I'm going to meet with him to see about doing the calipers - his quote was really good. Yay for combining the resources of the gun and moto communities
So.... quick update - the go-to people for o-rings, as far as customer service and helpfulness has been Marco Rubber.
I had a set of samples sent to me for the o-ring that is not included in the 30/34 kits. First try was "so very close" but not quite the cigar. The key specifications are the OD (10mm) and the thickness (somewhere between 1.5mm and 2.0mm), rather than the normal specification of ID and thickness.
The OD was spot on (10mm), and the thickness was "very close" but at 1.5mm, I was able to compare with the good original I had, and two new ones I got in brembo rebuild kits for other calipers. Not sure there would have been enough "squish" for a good seal with just 1.5mm of thickness and my calipers are too crude to correctly size the O-rings I have.
So I contacted Marco Rubber again about sending in what I had - and that was totally acceptable, so I boxed up one used and one new (used: so they could see the amount of squish that was permanent in what I got, and new: for what it started as). Filled out form with detailed information about operating conditions and off they went.
They'll be getting them in and contacting me about making the 'exact' right ones out of EPDM and/or AFLAS and any other suggested materials - and possibly in other shapes such as box-cross section and x-type - so the "best" seal can be had. And when they have it all figured out and ready to go for me, I told them I'd be buying at least 20-50, and would consider buying more like 500-1000 (price depending) so I could have enough others for anyone else who wants these. Alternatively, I may be able to get a "part no." from them, so a person could order direct from them. Hopefully in short time we will see.
Out of curiosity, I also boxed up and sent off one of each size piston (30mm and 34mm) and a bunch of the 'old' seals from the caliper to see if they had any thoughts on improvements for these knowing the operating conditions, like fluid, temp, seal type, and with a focus on maintaining the necessary pressure seal while also providing good piston retraction, and be tough enough to operate in the calipers that do not have dust seals. Told them if they didn't want to mess with those, no big deal, but didn't hurt to include them while I was already sending some on their way.