Occasionally when I get on the bike after a week the clutch would slip for a few hundred yards. This was not consistent and was not too bad, barely noticeable.
Went out last weekend and bike was fine, went out today and bike was make the beast with two backsed.
Slipping very bad after a full idle warmup. Could barely make it up the hill on my driveway and from a stop the slip was so bad the bike didn't want to move. I decided to see if the problem lessened when the clutch built up some heat. It didn't, after maybe 10 minutes the clutch slip was still there. Upshifting resulted in slipping for a second or 2 before the clutch grabbed and if I got on it at all the clutch would slip, the r's would spike and I would have to back off to get it to grab again. It felt almost as if the clutch was not fully engaging but may have just been slipping so bad I felt like that.
Needless to say I parked it in the garage after a 15 minute ride.
Oil level is solid, clutch fluid is at the correct level.
I was thinking maybe the ASV levers I got last year could be the culprit but I have put 2,000 miles on the bike since they were installed. There is no adjustment on the 696 for where the ASV lever arm contacts the plunger for the hydraulic clutch. I had an issue last fall many of you have heard about where the trans drops into first or second and gets locked in position. This was fixed by a dealer last fall and has not been an issue since. Another possibility, the coffin reservoirs are not sitting level as a result of the clip-on's, could this cause a problem?
Any suggestions? After all the problems I've had with this bike I'm getting pretty fed up.
Do you have any free-play on the lever before it pushes the plunger rod?
My wet clutch was worn out after only ~20,000 miles. After that I realized I had too much free-play, which also means the clutch is never really disengaged. The wet clutches are special in that way - they require full travel at the slave and that requires the lever/free-play to be very well adjusted. At red lights I always leave it in 1st and since it wasn't fully disengaged it rubbed, got hot and eventually started slipping.
Maybe the non-adjustable ASV lever caused the same thing on your bike......
Another clutch issue I had - dry plunger rod got stuck. If yours is dry, or a little dry,
it might not return properly = slippage.
I'm only at 4500 miles on an 09 696.
The plunger does make contact with the lever at all times.
Being non-adjustable I am not sure what to do about this problem. Many people run the ASV levers so unless my machining was off I can't see that being the primary problem. I'll remove the lever and see if the plunger is being depressed at all when the lever is relaxed.
When was the last time you flushed your clutch fluid?
If it's only happening, or is worse, when the bike's hot that'd be the first thing I'd check.
Buckethead's suggestion might be it, but it would cause an incomplete disengagement = rubbing when sitting with the bike in gear (like I did). Do you do that?
If there's contact lever/rod, there might be too much contact - I don't know if that's what's happening, but it is possible. It wouldn't be the first time an aftermarket manufacturer made a mistake.
If the plunger rod is dry, a few drops of oil inside the rubber which seals it. My lever got noticeably smoother.
Also if you changed the oil and put car oil or energy-conserving synthetic or anything in that wasn't meant for wet-clutch motorcycles, that could be it. These oils lack the necessary friction modifiers and essentially are too slick to be suitable for wet clutch bikes. If you try all that has been suggested and you still have a slipping clutch, you might be the type that rides the clutch too heavy and you just wore it out. ;D Won't be the first time it's ever happened. Hope you still have some warranty left. There may be some new plates in your future.
+1 on the wet clutch oil sensitivity issue.
I have never changed the oil on the bike. Purchased with 1900 miles currently has almost 5000.
I have no idea what the previous owner put in the bike. It was my understanding I was not supposed to change the oil until the 7500 mile tuneup?
Quote from: bergdoerfer on March 18, 2011, 04:26:45 PM
If you try all that has been suggested and you still have a slipping clutch, you might be the type that rides the clutch too heavy and you just wore it out. ;D Won't be the first time it's ever happened. Hope you still have some warranty left. There may be some new plates in your future.
No way on this. Been riding my whole life and all my cars are manual. Replaced clutches on cars for myself and friends just never on a bike. I have a detailed understanding of how a clutch system works and I'm certainly not riding/burning the clutch. Even on downshifts I'm rev matching so the clutch is not getting stressed at all.
Quote from: stopintime on March 18, 2011, 04:28:57 PM
+1 on the wet clutch oil sensitivity issue.
This is a possibility. However if the previous owner used the incorrect oil wouldn't the problems have arisen over the past 3000 miles? What made today's oil any different than the past 3k miles?
Quote from: Buckethead on March 18, 2011, 03:11:38 PM
When was the last time you flushed your clutch fluid?
If it's only happening, or is worse, when the bike's hot that'd be the first thing I'd check.
I have never flushed the fluid. Based on the manual clutch/brake fluid should be changed every 36months/22,500 miles whichever comes first (lol). I have not hit either.
Quote from: stopintime on March 18, 2011, 03:24:59 PM
Buckethead's suggestion might be it, but it would cause an incomplete disengagement = rubbing when sitting with the bike in gear (like I did). Do you do that?
If there's contact lever/rod, there might be too much contact - I don't know if that's what's happening, but it is possible. It wouldn't be the first time an aftermarket manufacturer made a mistake.
When in gear with the clutch disengaged at a stop the clutch appears to be fully disengaged. The bike it not pulling at all.
HOWEVER! Your statement reminded me of something. After that shop fixed the jammed shifter issue, shifts into gear from neutral at a stop became very rough. The bike would jump more than it had previously. Now a little jolt is typical for most bikes but it became much more noticeable after the work had been done. I even mentioned it to the tech.
I have a wet clutch but regardless it is still a little noisy as normal. However after the shop worked on it I could "feel" the clutch chattering a little more than usual. I know it sounds odd but you get to know your machine very well after some time. It definitely felt and even sounded different.
Any thoughts on this?
Jumping and making heavy noises when you shift into first?
That doesn't sound right.....
To adjust my clutch lever/plunger to "perfection" I put it in first on a rear stand.
After adjustment the wheel would not move at all. Well, it did move very slowly, but I could stop it with one finger and it would stay still several seconds.
With the ASV you can't adjust, but you will be able to check if you have full disengagement.
Maybe you could switch to stock lever to see if that changes anything.
Anyhow - an oil change and fluid flush won't hurt at this point.
Maybe try semi synthetic oil (better for wet clutches)
Quote from: stopintime on March 18, 2011, 05:23:38 PM
Jumping and making heavy noises when you shift into first?
That doesn't sound right.....
To adjust my clutch lever/plunger to "perfection" I put it in first on a rear stand.
After adjustment the wheel would not move at all. Well, it did move very slowly, but I could stop it with one finger and it would stay still several seconds.
With the ASV you can't adjust, but you will be able to check if you have full disengagement.
Maybe you could switch to stock lever to see if that changes anything.
Anyhow - an oil change and fluid flush won't hurt at this point.
Maybe try semi synthetic oil (better for wet clutches)
I'll put the stock back on and see if it helps.
Recommendations on oil type/brand? If the wet clutch ducati are that sensitive I don't want to use the wrong kind.
Found this: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=28642.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=28642.0)
Guy had an identical problem and the same levers. I'll check right now to see if the hydraulic plunder to see if the lever is pressing on it when when relaxed.. could be the cause as it was for this guy.
Quote from: Veloce-Fino on March 18, 2011, 05:26:26 PM
I'll put the stock back on and see if it helps.
Recommendations on oil type/brand? If the wet clutch ducati are that sensitive I don't want to use the wrong kind.
I don't know which brand to recommend, but I think any motorcycle specific 4 stroke will do.
If there's damage to your plates it might not help though.
Stock lever and some oil on the plunger rod is a good starting point to get you going with diagnostics.
Edit: you didn't change to an aftermarket slave cylinder, did you?
Quote from: Veloce-Fino on March 18, 2011, 05:26:26 PM
I'll put the stock back on and see if it helps.
Recommendations on oil type/brand? If the wet clutch ducati are that sensitive I don't want to use the wrong kind.
Mobil 1 MX4T 10-40. Available at any Auto Zone/Advance Auto.
Food for thought:
(http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1912.0)
Quote from: Buckethead on March 18, 2011, 05:37:11 PM
Mobil 1 MX4T 10-40. Available at any Auto Zone/Advance Auto.
Food for thought:
(http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1912.0)
Don't feel like reading that beast of a thread. I'll take your advice..
Oil filter matter or will a standard fram do just fine?
Quote from: stopintime on March 18, 2011, 05:36:51 PM
Edit: you didn't change to an aftermarket slave cylinder, did you?
No
Quote from: Veloce-Fino on March 18, 2011, 05:42:48 PM
Oil filter matter or will a standard fram do just fine?
Was it this forum that had the massive oil filter thread? The Fram filter was
condemned. Any other
but Fram it seems.
Do the ASV levers have the threaded plunger seat adjuster screw plug thingamabobber? I know the stockers do. If so, try turning them out a bit. Sounds like your clutch is not disengaging fully. See if a good bleed will help.
7500 on one oil change is what I would call letting it go too long. I might be OCD on the oil thing though. Have to remember the wet clutchers benefit from more frequent changes because the clutch shares lubrication with the engine. That means you have soot and other combustion byproducts along with clutch plate friction material teaming up doing guerilla vandalism inside your engine. Dry clutch bikes don't have to deal with that, and they can use the car oil just fine, so 7500 on a good syn would be OK I think with a dry clutch.
Shit.
Well I'll be switching back to the stock clutch lever and doing an oil change tomorrow.
I'll get whatever filter is available BUT the fram.
If I need a new clutch as a result of the ASV lever which I will test extensively tomorrow someone is going to get their ass kicked.
Did a google search, this is a COMMON problem for ASV levers. They are selling a bad product.
I used to have a set of ASVs, didn't like them because of the clutch switch provision or lack thereof. They look badass and are nicely made. Apparently they're not very well thought out though. I'm now rocking CRGs and they didn't address the clutch interlock switch phenomenon either but a quick mod made them work beautifully. I was sick and tired of returning parts and needed an adjustable lever. Tell me what's so mind numbingly difficult about CNCing a lever with a nub on it to actuate a small switch? Brembo seemed successful with their crudely cast stock levers but the miracle of CNC can't do it. I digress.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on March 18, 2011, 06:49:58 PM
I used to have a set of ASVs, didn't like them because of the clutch switch provision or lack thereof. They look badass and are nicely made. Apparently they're not very well thought out though. I'm now rocking CRGs and they didn't address the clutch interlock switch phenomenon either but a quick mod made them work beautifully. I was sick and tired of returning parts and needed an adjustable lever. Tell me what's so mind numbingly difficult about CNCing a lever with a nub on it to actuate a small switch? Brembo seemed successful with their crudely cast stock levers but the miracle of CNC can't do it. I digress.
Agreed. With the ASV's I had to bend and manipulate the position of the neutral lockout switch in order to get the ASV lever to contact it. My lever came with a little piece of plastic that attached to the lever and was designed to actuate the switch pin but it did not contact it initially.
In regard to the clutch slipping.
Tomorrow I'll be doing:
Oil/filter change.
filling reservoir to max recommended point
reinstalling stock lever.
Hopefully one of these solves the issue. I'm beginning to think it is an oil issue. The oil is quite dirty and very dark.
Some may ask "Why didn't I change it"
Well the clearly inept "expert" at my local dealer said that after the initial 600 mile change to let it go until 7500 which was very common for the S2R bikes. He must have forgotten the 696 was different and the the wet clutch could get gunked up from dirty oil.
Apparently not a single store within 20 miles of me stocks an oil filter or crush washers for the 696.
I'm going to order a K&N 153 from amazon.
As for the crush washers I may be forced to go to the dealer who will probably have to order them.
Don't order it from amazon when ca cycleworks is a sponsor and can provide the washer and put a snickers in the box for good measure.
Also you can reuse the washer if you absolutely have to, just sand it a little with some fine grit on a flat surface like a piece of glass or something.
Not surprised the Ducati oil filters are not normally stocked items at the McParts places.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on March 19, 2011, 11:29:12 AM
Don't order it from amazon when ca cycleworks is a sponsor and can provide the washer and put a snickers in the box for good measure.
Also you can reuse the washer if you absolutely have to, just sand it a little with some fine grit on a flat surface like a piece of glass or something.
Not surprised the Ducati oil filters are not normally stocked items at the McParts places.
I'd be more than happy to use Ca-cycle but I couldn't find the crush washers anywhere on their site.
They have the filter, can you link to the washers?
Just ask Chris, I'm sure he can hook you up with a washer. If not it really doesn't hurt anything to reuse the one you have.
Quote from: Veloce-Fino on March 18, 2011, 05:06:34 PM
When in gear with the clutch disengaged at a stop the clutch appears to be fully disengaged. The bike it not pulling at all.
HOWEVER! Your statement reminded me of something. After that shop fixed the jammed shifter issue, shifts into gear from neutral at a stop became very rough. The bike would jump more than it had previously. Now a little jolt is typical for most bikes but it became much more noticeable after the work had been done. I even mentioned it to the tech.
I have a wet clutch but regardless it is still a little noisy as normal. However after the shop worked on it I could "feel" the clutch chattering a little more than usual. I know it sounds odd but you get to know your machine very well after some time. It definitely felt and even sounded different.
Any thoughts on this?
This part me wondering if maybe something was adjusted incorrectly after you took it to the shop and the jumping when shifting out of neutral was a bit of drag from the clutch not fully disengaging. Then, over time, this drag quickly wore out your clutch. *shrug* I dunno. If you're changing the oil, maybe you want to take the cover off and inspect your plates while you're at it?
If you've bothered to read George's post about oil you would know that the oil filter is like the kidneys and liver for your engine and the oil is like its blood.
Quote from: errazor on March 19, 2011, 01:35:27 PM
If you've bothered to read George's post about oil you would know that the oil filter is like the kidneys and liver for your engine and the oil is like its blood.
That's a great analogy! I miss George. :'(
- My wet-clutch M695 has a very strong preference for Mobil MX-4T. Other moto oils always seem to cause some slipping. I now ONLY use MX-4T.
- V-F, looks like you're on the right path with your plan. I would also remove the long clutch rod, clean it, inspect it, replace the two little o-rings with some lithium grease on them, and a tiny dab of moly grease on both ends of the rod. Make sure there is no case sealer interfering with the rod.
- Don't OVER fill the reservoir with fluid - you need the head-space for expansion.
- Your stuck shifter work was probably all on the alternator side.
- Replaced my wet clutch recently to fix some slipping under certain high-load conditions. The ~20k mile old parts looked fine and measured good, but the new parts solved my issue.
- If you've been slipping, you might have some glazing/burnt discs. Get some fresh MX-4T in there and give it a few hundred miles to see if it resolves itself.
BK
Quote from: erkishhorde on March 19, 2011, 01:04:34 PM
This part me wondering if maybe something was adjusted incorrectly after you took it to the shop and the jumping when shifting out of neutral was a bit of drag from the clutch not fully disengaging. Then, over time, this drag quickly wore out your clutch. *shrug* I dunno. If you're changing the oil, maybe you want to take the cover off and inspect your plates while you're at it?
This is a possibility. However the issue was not with the clutch or even the transmission. It was with the gear selector arm that was traveling too far and getting stuck below it's mounting point
More in this thread: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42237.15 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42237.15)
I'm fairly certain the issue is one of these three.
1) ASV levers "riding" the clutch due to lack of free play and no adjustability
2) Dirty oil gunking up the clutch discs
3) Total failure of clutch as a result of one of the above or my inherent bad luck.
Quote from: errazor on March 19, 2011, 01:35:27 PM
If you've bothered to read George's post about oil you would know that the oil filter is like the kidneys and liver for your engine and the oil is like its blood.
I fully understand the importance of oil and the filtering system. Bikes may be new to me but I've been building cars for a while now.
Quote from: BK_856er on March 19, 2011, 01:59:58 PM
That's a great analogy! I miss George. :'(
1- My wet-clutch M695 has a very strong preference for Mobil MX-4T. Other moto oils always seem to cause some slipping. I now ONLY use MX-4T.
2- V-F, looks like you're on the right path with your plan. I would also remove the long clutch rod, clean it, inspect it, replace the two little o-rings with some lithium grease on them, and a tiny dab of moly grease on both ends of the rod. Make sure there is no case sealer interfering with the rod.
3- Don't OVER fill the reservoir with fluid - you need the head-space for expansion.
4- Your stuck shifter work was probably all on the alternator side.
5- Replaced my wet clutch recently to fix some slipping under certain high-load conditions. The ~20k mile old parts looked fine and measured good, but the new parts solved my issue.
6- If you've been slipping, you might have some glazing/burnt discs. Get some fresh MX-4T in there and give it a few hundred miles to see if it resolves itself.
BK
1. I bought Mobil 1 MX4t 10W40 - so we're good there
2. Will do.
3. Check.
4. Correct.
5. That's $ I'm not trying to spend if not necessary
6. Let's hope so.
On Another note:
Removed the clutch lever and installed the stock.
I measured the distance that the stock lever was depressing the plunger rod when in a neutral position. Then I reinstalled the ASV and measured the distance. The ASV lever was depressing the plunger rod over twice as much as the stockers.
Conclusion: ASV clutch lever was absolutely riding the clutch and preventing full engagement of the clutch when in gear.
Solution: the "cup" where the plunger rod inserts on the lever is not adjustable on the ASV, it is cnc'ed into the lever. I used a tapered drill bit to both widen and deepen the cup where the plunger rod inserts. Nearly 1/4 inch was added to the depth!!
After doing this the plunger rod was depressed almost exactly the same as the stock lever. I threw some lithium grease on the plunger rod and the lever mounting pin and reinstalled everything.
Rode bike and no more slipping.
This is the weird part.... If the ASV lever was constantly riding the clutch over the last ~2k miles why did the slipping only become an issue yesterday? And why did it stop when I fixed the issue? Shouldn't the issue have been intermittent until the point of failure and then constant after?
I feel like I just put a band-aid on the problem and my clutch is still on it's way out as a result of 2000+ miles of unknowingly riding the clutch.
*still changing the oil next weekend also.
EDIT* POST COUNT pregnant dogES - check it.
Hard to say...maybe took a while to wear/glaze enough to cause slippage?
Anyway, great to hear that you seem to have found the primary cause. [thumbsup]
BK
Quote from: Veloce-Fino on March 19, 2011, 02:35:50 PM
EDIT* POST COUNT pregnant dogES - check it.
Fixed it for you.
BK
(http://i54.tinypic.com/waix49.jpg)
I'd change the oil and pretend it never happened [beer]
Chances are you'll have to change the clutch pack sooner than you otherwise would have to,
but for now I think you should be satisfied.
To maintain 1198, delete one old post for each new [cheeky]
Got everything ordered.
Worked with Chris/Candice at ca-cycle. Called to order and Candice got it shipped out an hour later.
PROPS!
Went to do the oil change today after a nice hour ride in 38F weather. Turns out I don't have a 14mm hex to pull the oil screen plug.
None of the 5 stores within 45 minutes stocks anything over a 10mm.
Had to order a large hex set online.. maybe next weekend I can actually get this done.
Doh! >:( You also need a 21mm socket to remove the cap the oil temp lead attaches to to access the oil screen. Remember there is a crush washer there too.
You don't absolutely have to pull the screen, but I think it's wise to do so every other change so you can see what's going on with wear & stuff. You'll see some little bronze wear particles from the valve guides and maybe an aluminum shaving or two. Totally normal so don't flip out. At some point the particulates getting stuck to the screen will taper off to none as your engine fully breaks in.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on March 26, 2011, 05:54:12 PM
Doh! >:( You also need a 21mm socket to remove the cap the oil temp lead attaches to to access the oil screen. Remember there is a crush washer there too.
You don't absolutely have to pull the screen, but I think it's wise to do so every other change so you can see what's going on with wear & stuff. You'll see some little bronze wear particles from the valve guides and maybe an aluminum shaving or two. Totally normal so don't flip out. At some point the particulates getting stuck to the screen will taper off to none as your engine fully breaks in.
This will be the 2nd oil change after the 600 mile one. I'm currently at ~4800 miles. I'll be expecting some wear particles just hopefully not a shitload.
Are you sure a 21mm is required? I believe it is 10mm for oil plug, 14mm for outer screen plug and 14mm for the actual oil screen. The set I bought only goes up to 18 so I'm definitely going to murder someone if it is a 21mm on the 696.
*14mm for both thankfully.
Ducati Monster 696 First Oil Change + Screen Cleaning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZEL6OLK8s#normal)
Bonus [thumbsup]
same tool for both the cap and screen
I have to use a socket [thumbsdown]