Fitted an Igniteck unit. Was planning to do this for a while. Changed out my flywheel pickups which were failing, so went the whole hog with Kelley Coils as well.
There appears to be no advance delay on this iteration of Igniteck unit. I could detect no advance delay or 'regression' in the higher revs. The timing light showed no "coming back" of the advance as people have previously found. I am guessing that there has been a rectification of this issue which is good news. I was talking to Brad Black and he had just fitted a unit and found the same thing. Brad understands this better than me and has researched the carb 2 valver ignition (see Bikeboy.org). Brad's advice was invaluable. Thanks also to Greenmonster and a m.
I am running the as supplied default map at present with a base advance of 10 deg. I set the new pick ups at 4 deg advanced over stock (6 deg) to get the 10 deg base advance. This appeared correct with the timing light, and the maximum advance was about 32-33 deg. The timing light don't lie. I reckon I am within 1/2 to 1 degree accurate with my initial setting by manipulating the pickups.
The bike starts easily and idles very strongly. Low revs are very smooth and snatchiness is greatly reduced. Makes me think that there is more to carbed Monsters low running than just carb settings, drive train and flywheel considerations that's for sure. The sudden full advance at 2200+ rpm of the stock ignition units must be partially responsible for the rough low speed running of carbed Monsters.
Greenmonster is correct, the bike's exhaust note does sound tougher and more 'tuned'. Pretty cool.
The bike is much more responsive on small throttle openings and there is a reduction in hesitation/shudder when cracking open the throttle from cruising speeds for sudden overtaking with better acceleration.
I will start playing with the advance map, although it is pretty good with a nice gradual advance curve up to 6000 rpm to avoid pinging and promote good performance. The 32-33 max advance is consistent with what I have seen good tuners use with high comp pistons and worth 2-3 hp. I will set my rev limiter to 9000 rpm and shift light to 8500 rpm as the Igniteck has ports for this.
I must say I am very impressed.
QuoteThere appears to be no advance delay on this iteration of Igniteck unit. I could detect no advance delay or 'regression' in the higher revs. The timing light showed no "coming back" of the advance as people have previously found. I am guessing that there has been a rectification of this issue which is good news. I was talking to Brad Black and he had just fitted a unit and found the same thing.
Nice to know they've fixed that.
QuoteI set the new pick ups at 4 deg advanced over stock (6 deg) to get the 10 deg base advance. This appeared correct with the timing light, and the maximum advance was about 32-33 deg. The timing light don't lie.
Hmm, shouldn't you get at least 36 max?
What flywheel do you have?
I know what you mean Greenmonster, I was expecting the full 36 deg, but the timing light showed 32-33. I am using the stock flywheel (lightened of course [evil] with the 36 deg full advance dot and stock lump).
Brad said that the unit would calculate the map full advance from the set base advance which I set at 10 deg to match the base advance from the default map. I was within a degree or half a degree of setting the base advance at 10 deg via the pick ups.
I was worried that I would end up with 40 deg full advance, by accidently tricking the unit, but the unit apparently doesnt work like that. Brad said that the unit would calculate the full advance as mapped as long as the base advance was correct as it is the reference point. It seems the way to accidently trick the unit (and yourself) is to have a real base advance different to what you have mapped. I may have 10.5 or 11 deg base advance which I'm guessing would give me 32.5-33 deg full advance on a 32 deg map.
I'm within a degree so I may have 33 deg full advance by my calculations of about .73ish of a degree advance per mm. I didn't drill any more dots but it appears very close. The timing light at least wasn't lying, except of course if the advance dots aren't accurate from the factory...
QuoteI was expecting the full 36 deg, but the timing light showed 32-33.
What max adv did the map say you have?
QuoteI was worried that I would end up with 40 deg full advance,
It is a bit tricky to talk about this and knowing what the reference is etc, easily confusing (I know I am...).
What I probably should have asked:
Using your timing light w the new position of pick-ups,
what is
the max advance avaliable/possible now?
The max advance possible now I believe to be 40 deg and the timing light is at 32-33 and the ignition map has 32. I advanced the pick ups 4 deg. So I believe my base setting to be at 10 (or 11).
I must have bothered Brad with my repeated questions trying to get my head around how the system worked. He was very patient.
Thx.
It is confusing but you`ve done it properly.
Maybe some Dynoruns at Brad`s w 28-30-32-34-36-38-40 max adv?
Would be interesting, you know you want it.... [evil] ;D
Looking at Doug Lofgrens work, it seems as if the high compression engines like 2-3 degrees less maximum advance which brings it to 33-34 degrees. Ported high comp bikes gained 2 to 3 more horsepower with the slightly retarded max advance.
I also note the MBP run 2 1/2 degrees less max advance with their ported high compression bikes.
My bike has JE high comps, porting and dialled cams with about 180 psi cylinder pressure, which I think is moderate, so I will probably try 34 degrees max advance from 7000 rpm.
G'day GM
I have adjusted the map with 10 deg base advance, 10 deg at 1500, 15 deg at 2000, 21 at 3000, 27 at 4000 32 at 5000, 34 at 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000.
Rev limiter to 9000 and shift light to 8500 (for my aging reflexes).
What do you think considering our bikes engines have similar modifications?
Seems just about right.
You`d better hold Brads hand than mine is these matters. `;) ;D
Yeah, I bug him with my questions. We bounce ideas around. Brad's generous with his knowledge.
I thought I would compare notes with you as your mods appeared similar.
Quote from: koko64 on April 01, 2011, 11:13:13 PM
There appears to be no advance delay on this iteration of Igniteck unit. I could detect no advance delay or 'regression' in the higher revs. The timing light showed no "coming back" of the advance as people have previously found. I am guessing that there has been a rectification of this issue which is good news. I was talking to Brad Black and he had just fitted a unit and found the same thing. Brad understands this better than me and has researched the carb 2 valver ignition (see Bikeboy.org). Brad's advice was invaluable. Thanks also to Greenmonster and a m.
I was unaware of this -- I have one of the earlier units. Can yu point me to something on it, I don't see it on Bikeboy. How was it mitigated?
QuoteThere is a delay in the TCIP4 that results in the maximum advance being retarded from that defined by the flywheel. In my testing, to maintain a constant advance from 2,000 RPM upwards of less than the maximum possible (say 25 on a 32 degree max advance flywheel), one degree needs to be added for every 1,000 RPM from 4,000 RPM or so upward. So if you want a constant 25 degrees advance up to 9,000 RPM, you have the map set to 25 @ 3,000 RPM, 26 @ 4,000 RPM, 27 @ 5,000 RPM, etc. But, if you are using the maximum advance in the map then you can not eliminate the effect of the delay. If your flywheel and pick up position gives 36 degrees possible maximum advance and your map is at 36 degrees, then by 8,000 RPM the maximum advance in reality is back to 31 degrees.
From http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html) .
thanks! [thumbsup] that's easy enough
Brad and I were comparing notes the other week how recent units didn't appear to have the "advance delay". We had both fitted units that didn't display the effect he previously discovered and reported on Bikeboy.
I was prepared to add extra values on the map to compensate for this 'advance delay', but the timing light didn't show the delay. Brad noticed the same thing. They must have fixed it. The unit I fitted is the later V80 version with new software.
A very versatile unit making for effective ignition tuning to different motor requirements.
Quote from: koko64 on April 15, 2011, 08:15:58 AM
Brad and I were comparing notes the other week how recent units didn't appear to have the "advance delay". We had both fitted units that didn't display the effect he previously discovered and reported on Bikeboy.
I was prepared to add extra values on the map to compensate for this 'advance delay', but the timing light didn't show the delay. Brad noticed the same thing. They must have fixed it. The unit I fitted is the later V80 version with new software.
A very versatile unit making for effective ignition tuning to different motor requirements.
I put it on my SS and removed it to do work and haven't put it back on. The only complaint I have with it is the interface. They need to put a USB connector instead of that DB9 serial.. :P
god yes
One more comment. brad says this:
QuoteYou can add a TPS (throttle position sensor) to alter part throttle advance. I couldn't think of how to do it easily with the Mikuni carbs.
The easy way is to either use the Mikunis from a Yamaha TRX850 or order FCRs for the TRX850 and ask for the jetting to be changed and the Ducati spigot to be provided instead of the Yamaha type. The 850 has a TPS. You'll need to buy the actual TPS from Yamaha as the FCRs don't come with it.
Once you have that, the carbs work identically except there is a TPS. You'll need to add the TPS wiring to the Ignitech loom which isn't a big deal you. If you swap the polarity, it will read negative voltage, so just swap them.
QuoteThe only complaint I have with it is the interface. They need to put a USB connector instead of that DB9 serial.. Tongue
It has no USB due to reliability reasons.
When you adjust f e w a running motor the older connection is much more stable.
I asked Jan.
Quote from: greenmonster on April 15, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
It has no USB due to reliability reasons.
When you adjust f e w a running motor the older connection is much more stable.
I asked Jan.
It's nonsense. They must not have Google in Czech land?
USB can feed directly into the same pins. (usb <->db9 here)
1 - 9 ------------------- 5 - GND
4 ----------------------- 1 - + 5 VDC interior PC cable red
5 ----------------------- 3 - <- TXD
6 ----------------------- 2 - -> RXD
7 ----------------------- 4 - <- DTR
mesh---------------- shielding conector (shield)
Agreed, there's a solution for this with USB that should be pretty direct.
QuoteIt's nonsense.
Maybe so. It was their answer when I asked.
They have tested IRL.
If you have any constructive suggestions, give them a mail.
They`ve been responsive to critic & development for me.
Quote from: greenmonster on April 15, 2011, 12:34:45 PM
Maybe so. It was there answer when I asked.
They have tested IRL.
If you have any constructive suggestions, give them a mail.
They`ve been responsive to critic & development for me.
i emailed him about it and got the same reply.
no response when i asked him why PCIII has no problem with it.
i've used mine many times with a usb - serial adaptor. finally found the disc with drivers for the adaptor so i can install it on my laptop.
man, it took me a bunch of tries to get the right drivers for my laptop to run the usb/serial adapter. I suppose its just my laptop versus the somewhat forgotten or seldom revised software for the adapter.
ho hum. Once it was done, though, I could walk out to the garage with the lap top, tinker away and have the ol' streaming internet radio playing on the garage-stereo with a cable. That's pretty rocking.
Just need to get it a dyno in my tiny garage so I can actually play more extensively on the ignition curves, as well as some fancier o2 sniffers in my exhaust headers (i had bungs welded in so i could see lean/rich in real time - but the output display wasn't so attractive, so I bailed on the plan of having it by the gauges for the time being.)
I went to a local computer shop and got a USB/serial port adapter with it's own software disc. Cost a little extra but saved me the hassle of finding a program that would work.
My issue was Igniteck sent me a V80 unit with a V75 software disc. Once I got the V80 program off their site the laptop and Ignition unit are talking fine. Should have paid more attention the V80 sticker on the ignition unit..