Ducati Monster Forum

To be less confusing, the 900W is the fixer-upper 1999 Monster and corresponding engine. The "02-900" motor is a parts-motor from a crashed 2002 SS 900ie. The 900V is my original Monster 900, confusingly also a 1999. Just like I like it.   Moving right along:

Got the 900W engine a bit further apart with some spare time.   Waiting on some parts to come in. I will be putting on one of the VeeTwo lightweight primary kits - so I'll be putting new bearings and seals in the kits driven gear.   Three related questions:

1. Why would the clutch hub 'stick' on the splines and be a real huge pain in my ass to remove?
2. Why would the driven gear's spacer-bush (the one with the o-ring in it) also be ridiculously hard to remove?

Neither hubs were this much of a pregnant dog on the 02 900ie parts motor, or the '99 m900 motor in my bike.
The spacer/bush was not a chore on the 02 900ie parts motor either (haven't ever removed it on my '99 m900). I just grabbed it with a wrench and pulled - off it came.

I suppose everyone loves pictures - so here's a shot of the 'splines' I'm talking about.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1P6bQVltI/AAAAAAAAGhY/4g6csN1Ns-k/s400/IMG_9953.jpg)

3. Back on lightened gears - I'm considering / leaning-towards sending my timing gear and sprag gear to Fast Frank Racing to be lightened. Can anybody share with me their experiences with lightened gears? (Specifically those two).

Picture o' the other side of the motor with a timing gear. Which brings up another round of questions:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1QT1tufRI/AAAAAAAAGhw/44jkeTKnO-o/s400/IMG_0368.jpg)

I do not recall seeing bolts like the two below the shifter mechanism would mount before. I've seen them in pictures of other Duc engines - but they were older bikes - like the earlier small charging system bikes.   Here's a closeup:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1QWADR1aI/AAAAAAAAGh0/m3y4_j_QnUc/s400/IMG_6897.jpg)

When compared to the 02-900 ie engine (now in pieces on the shelf, this is an old picture) what I want to know regarding the motor in question is - where is the red bolt? Should there not be one? Why this 900W is there a giant looking plug taking up what looks like normal oil flow passage on the 02-900 engine

02-900 engine for comparison - notice red bolt and open passage way.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vM_28W6vI/AAAAAAAAFeA/eAGURQDZRnk/s640/IMG_2216.JPG)

Kind of along the same lines - the 900W motor's cylinders had gold colored "plugs" in them - almost looked like press-fit blockoffs in case they made these into ST2 cylinders, which are not present on the 02-900 cylinders. Is that what they are? If no, wtf are they and why not present on the 02-900?   For reference - 02-900 vertical cylinder: Here be no plugs:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8Jwgyx3g2I/AAAAAAAAFc4/9CgUr1JKW-k/s400/IMG_2207.JPG)


Next few questions are a bit more general, paint and ti-bolts:

Paint: The heads are pretty dingy from the 02-900 that are going on to the bike. I was considering painting them. The powdercoater had examples of powdercoated heads sitting there to stare at today as well. Hadn't considered that. Thoughts/Opinions?

Paint 2: Same thing but for painting/powdercoating the cylinders. I've got some down time, as I plan on getting the piston domes machined to enlarge the valve reliefs since the V2 -210 grind spec sheet calls for such.

Ti Bolts: While I'm looking at the 900W motor, I can't help but stare at the crankcase-jointing bolts. I even made a list of them gathered from the Workshop Manual I have, and verified it was the same with the bag of the same bolts I removed from the 02-900 when I split the cases recently.   There are two sizes M8 bolts - long and longer, and two sizes of M6 bolts - long and short.   They are all Grade 8.8 steel - I've contemplated sourcing in the future, the necessary replacements for these bolts in Titanium for the M900V - my Monster.  I can't think of any reason why Ti couldn't be used here, but perhaps I'm mis-thinking this, and something to do with heat, expansion, this or that, should be higher in my list of considerations.   Let me know what you think.

Everybody likes pictures - so here's a few shots of other things sitting around the garage for this bike, some are mild, some are wild:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1QPMx10vI/AAAAAAAAGiA/s-doPeZH_fQ/s400/IMG_3419.jpg) (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1QPoAEZ3I/AAAAAAAAGiE/w17yds4RcCw/s400/IMG_5194.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1QRJY0CJI/AAAAAAAAGho/SFR58Ng8aeA/s400/IMG_9971.jpg) (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1QR_YYpPI/AAAAAAAAGiM/DYkkfn8GtcM/s400/IMG_3782.jpg)

And while I'm at it, the other two in the stable, in various states of disassembly since I have little time and less money at this moment:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1VHmPL-VI/AAAAAAAAGh8/zzty32SeDbU/s400/IMG_9807.jpg) (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TZ1FrXTS_mI/AAAAAAAAGhE/gJZrgp3th3c/s400/IMG_4266.jpg)

So in sum:

why sticking on splines? i didn't see any burrs, not sure what to be focused on.

why no red bolt?   what's that big plug-lookin' bolt?

cylinder 'plugs' - info on this?

getting pistons' valve-reliefs enlarged - anybody done this? got advice?

painting cylinders - painting heads - powdercoating?

ti bolts for case jointing?

---

That's what I've got for today. I'll think of some more tomorrow, I'm sure.

Quote from: j v on April 06, 2011, 11:23:01 PM
So in sum:

why sticking on splines? i didn't see any burrs, not sure what to be focused on.

why no red bolt?   what's that big plug-lookin' bolt?

cylinder 'plugs' - info on this?

getting pistons' valve-reliefs enlarged - anybody done this? got advice?

painting cylinders - painting heads - powdercoating?

ti bolts for case jointing?

---

That's what I've got for today. I'll think of some more tomorrow, I'm sure.

in order

some gears and that o-ringed bush are bastards to get off.  just the way it is.  pull harder.  generally hard enough to hurt yourself.

red bolt is drilled on the other end to supply oil to lh case piston cooling jets from rh case oil passages.  sometimes it is black, spec'd as single use only, lower torque than others, varying in expense i've found.  first in 916SP, fitted to all later (3 phase alt?) cases even when the manual didn't mention it, generally these have the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump cover.  big plug on earlier motor is for oil pressure relief valve before they put it in the pump cover.  under it is the big spring and the plunger valve which lets oil flow from a hole in the face of the rh case.

pre '98 900 motors have oil filled cylinders to cool them, with the two oil lines from cylinder to alt cover on the lh side as the obvious clue (some were internal in 98?).  brass plugs seal the casting holes for the oil cavities, like the st2's water jacket.  same shit pretty much.  later cylinders are air cooled only.  look at the base of the fins - early motor cylinder has much larger central round section

i use a well known predomninantly v8 race car, sprint car, etc engine shop to do my valve reliefs.  just find one you trust and tell them what you want, they should be able to do it.

painting - no real idea.  don't want to restrict heat transfer too much.

ti bolts - no idea.

I'd avoid powder on engine parts like cylinders and heads. Typically it's applied too thick and can actually insulate.

gotcha

will investigate / stock up on VHT supplies and do as much reading as possible before diving in.

Back on pistons/cylinders/heads & the combustion chamber:   I'm into things I have little-to-no experience with.

So, the OEM cylinders for this motor (900W) and the 02-900 parts-motor are in "good shape".  The 900W's pistons had almost no carbon build-up on them, which I thought was strange period, but highly suspect for a motor with supposedly 20k mi on the odometer.   One piston has the obvious large gouge from an exhaust valve impact at some point. Don't really want to reuse these pistons with such a defect on one.

The 02-900's motor had really dirty piston crowns and cylinder heads' combustion chamber faces.  Really thick, chunky carbon build-up. A scrubbing with a wire brush and lots of carb cleaner revealed nice gouge-free surfaces on both, though they look a bit like they've been hit with a bit of fine sandpaper... ? Its not machine marks from the original machining of the pistons I'm talking about, those are kind of hidden behind or blended with a bit of very light "smoothing" or "gentle sanding". Is this still usable? I'm not trying to win any dyno contests, but i do want to put it together and have it in running order for a few years...  Is it usable if I try to carefully 'hide' the sanding marks by lightly polishing them?

Likewise, I see that I cannot simply order new piston rings from Ducati. It seems they are not available separately from my brief investigation - not that it mattered - they were priced almost as much as a set of JE's for the Ducati rings alone, and the JE's obviously come with rings. (and have easy to get replacement rings).   It appears now that the rings cannot be obtained separate now, and required the pistons as well, and most recently I looked and it appeared they came with cylinders too. wtf.

At this point, I'm considering ordering standard 92mm bore JE pistons and rendering the oem piston questions a bit moot, but would love to know the answers.

Pistons/Rings - Its all new to me. I've read articles on installing pistons by first checking the fitment of the rings in the cylinder for ring-end gap. Then the article said to install the 3-piece oil rings, 2nd ring and finally top ring. Makes me assume they did this in this order because they were installing from the piston crown side. How might one get the ring around the piston's crown while making sure not to scratch or gouge the hell out of any edges and not damage a ring?

More on Piston Rings - I've read instances where folks have broken a piston ring while installing it or perhaps reinstalling it - speaking of which, if you were to install the rings and do all your measuring, can you remove them? Or is it a "once they go on, that's it; if they are removed, they must be discarded and replaced" kind of situation?

I am considering making sure everything is "right", and then having the applying the thermal barrier coatings to the piston crowns and valve faces coated via SwainTech or any of the other myriad internal engine performance coating shops.  As far as assembly goes, I did get a piston ring compressor from Nichols. The green one for 92mm pistons. Works very well on allowing me to compress the rings on the OEM pistons with just two or so fingers, while guiding the piston into a cylinder - I "practiced" with the 900W engine's cylinders and pistons. Still don't know how one would get rings around the crown and into their respective channels without damaging the piston - not sure how you would "spread them" correctly.

Pistons & Cams: Still trying to "solve" the puzzle of the top-end on this motor.   Using those 210 cams, I see I'll need to machine the piston's intake-valve relief pocket by +1.25mm, because the lift is 13.1mm - around 1.3mm greater than the OEM intake lift of 11.8mm.   It also indicates "1.00mm off the radius", which I am reading to mean the pistons' intake-valve relief pockets must be enlarged in diameter as well, yes?

Squish, Piston-Head Clearance, Valve-Piston Clearance
So, if I understand next step correctly: From here, I would install pistons on rods and into cylinders, apply various thicknesses of wax to the crown, and install the head, turn crank to cause wax-transfer. The remove the head and see what transfered to find clearance between piston and head - which will determine the correct base-gasket thickness (0.4 is stock, so if too little clearance, I could go up a size, though doing so would also slightly lessen the compression ratio, yes?).

With the correct base-gasket installed, and wax placed in the piston's valve relief pockets, reinstall the heads, and set all the related timing: valves shimmed, and Belts/Cams/Pulleys.  Then disassemble and see what sizes of wax left marks/transferred. If too small of clearance, I could either do a yet-thicker base gasket, or disassemble everything remove heads and cylinders, and the pistons so that the pistons' pockets could be machined larger.

I think I have that straight, but would really love feedback as to whether that part of the plan would be correct.

"Purpose Built Pistons" - Now, I have contemplated an alternative, which may remove a bit of the last step - please give feedback here too:  Have a set of JE Pistons made with the deeper/bigger intake-valve relief pockets --> That would likely give a correct piston-valve clearance measurement during testing, with the machine work done preemptively - with a possibility of removing the requirement of having to disassemble to have them machined further after the fact. Seems like at that point, if it was still too close, it would only be slightly, and so the remainder could be taken up with the base gasket size.   Additionally, the pre-machined deeper pockets would also lessen the compression ratio of the JE Pistons slightly, which I find a bit high at 11.5:1 (compared to Pistal's 10.8:1, and Ferracci's 11.1:1 "street" pistons) - If it was lessened slightly, it seems like I may be able to easily mitigate the detonation problems I read about in Brad's findings by either moving the flywheel timing pickups and/or using an ignitech, coupled with the high octane pump gas. 

How do my thoughts read on that last idea? Getting the pistons done up initially with the deeper pockets, still doing all the squish checking/setting, but potentially preemptively eliminating additional machine work to the pistons... ?  Ordering up pistons would also get me fresh rings and such, and using a 92mm bore, I don't think I'd need to do anything to the cylinder... I have read that you just run a hone through it and you'd be good to go, but again: I'm a major-component-build Newb, so please enlighten me.

I need to take an engine-building basics course that covers valve/cam timing, crank building/assembly, crank/gearbox shimming, pistons/cylinders and the nuances of mating the two, valves: guides, seals, seats, lapping, etc.   Somebody teach this, I'll enroll promptly. I'd prefer a 50/50 books (with pictures!) and hands-on practical lessons ratio.

G'day j v
There are reasonable options there, and you have thought it through.

I don't see why a good machine shop couldn't finish the JE pistons' valve pockets for you and skim the crown while they were at it to get the compression down. My JE pistons with stock carb cams advanced 7 deg make about 180 psi cylinder pressure. With the ignition retarded 2-3 degrees at the pick ups and 98 RON fuel there is no pinging. I must say that the Igniteck is versatile and makes for much easier starting if you are running FCRs. I am currently using 34 deg max advance from 6000 rpm with the igniteck. At least with the Igniteck you don't have to open the timing case.

The 900 ie cams wouldn't require piston machining to use. If you are committed to using the Vee Two cams you can sell me the ie cams (seriously).

I'm sure Brad has some words of advice.

Cheers

apparently the JE pistons in the 'off-the-shelf' form would be too thin once machined down the required 1.25mm on the intake pocket - that's the word i got back from JE engineering dept.

Based on my understanding/reading on the different cam grinds, I'm a bit hell bent on the vee two -210 cams in this motor because they are designed for the long intake manifolds, while the IE cams are for short manifolds such as those on the 900IE. The carbs I have for the bike (FCR 41's) are banked - so long manifolds it is unless I want to get split singles and short manifolds --> I have a set of Jako Motorsport short manifolds, but would still need to buy a set of carbs ($$$) ...And in that case, I'd want use the VeeTwo -212 cams I've got on the shelf, and like the IE cams are also designed for short manifolds, but like the VeeTwo -210 cams, will ALSO require the pistons' intake relief pockets to be machined 1.25mm deeper. 

Found myself in a pickle, perhaps.
My goals for the motor are "street-able" performance (think "hooligan grocery getter"), won't require a rebuild in short time, and not to go nuts with costs. I'd also like to ride the completed bike by the end of the year if at all possible, with a high preference to the motor being "finished" by mid-June.

I thought if I brainstormed the options with this motor, with budget, street-able performance, and reliability to be kept up front, I might discover easier or more straightforward solutions - or at least uncover the trouble areas.  With this motor and the pile of parts I have, it seems like the options I have identified are:

a) Leave the junk pistons in there, put the "W" heads with 41/35 valves and the 600/750 cams back on, long manifolds, and banked FCR 41's.  End result would be an underwhelming 900 with carbs almost certainly sized to big for the valves & cams, and old pistons/rings.  Cheapest option.

b) Leave the junk pistons in there, put the "V" heads on with 43/38 valves, and the 600/750 cams in those heads, long manifolds and banked FCR 41's. Would still be an underwhelming 900, but the carbs might behave better with the bigger valves, but still have the incredibly mild cams & old pistons/rings. Tied for Cheapest option.

c) Leave the junk pistons in there, put the "V" heads on with the 43/38 valves, and the 900 IE cams, with long manifolds and banked FCR 41s. If it could be sorted out, using the IE cams and long manifolds, this seems like a pretty good option, except for the old pistons/rings. Its also tied for Cheapest option.  Could even do a 92mm JE high comp directly in here if it IS possible to get the carbs to run right, and be rid of the old pistons/rings, and on the cheap too.

d) Leave the junk pistons in there, put the "V" heads on with the 43/38 valves, and set out to find/purchase a set of 900 carbie cams, which are designed for long intake manifolds and would be correct for the banked FCR 41's.  This isn't the cheapest option since it requires purchasing cams, and the end result would be like a 'used' / cobbled-together version of the motor in my M900, BUT everything would "work together".   Leaves a set of -210 cams and 900 IE cams unused on the shelf, old/used pistons in the motor, and a luke-warm performer on paper. Adding to the cost would/could be a set of 92mm JE pistons to replace the old pistons/rings, and eliminate that potential trouble area.

e) Use the "V" heads, and install the VeeTwo -210 cams and related valves with the long manifolds and banked FCR 41's (they are designed for the long manifolds so says the bulletin, and I already have all of these parts). This seems to require the pistons to be machined 1.25mm - the old, junk pistons... OR have some JE pistons made with the inlet pockets deeper from the start. Have a 'great' (relative) performer, with new pistons, cams, valves, etc.  The only extra cost I see with this is the obvious purchase of pistons.

d) Use the "V" heads and 43/38 valves, 900 IE cams, reuse junk pistons, and get a set of short manifolds and split single carbs. Performance would be 'high', but reliability / maintenance concerns would go up as well - with the individual carbs, and the old pistons/rings would be left in the motor. Cost is high.

e) Use the "V" heads, install the VeeTwo -212 cams and valves, and have to get split singles / short manifolds, and have to machine the pistons if reusing the old junkers, or obtain purpose built pistons.  Cost is VERY high and might as well get the built pistons in 94mm or 95mm, and big bore the sucker while I'm at it. Then the crank would need balancing, and might as well lighten it at the same time, and can't forget some stronger rods! That's well over budget for this motor, and really doesn't sound all that 'street-able' in the "grocery getter" frame of mind.


That said, Koko64, you can have dibs on the IE cams once I get some forward progress on the bike and am "certain" I won't be using them.

That's an Aladdin's cave of juicy parts you've got there!
Looking at those options as you see them, definitely option (e. You pretty much have everything.

Then there's only the choice whether to use the stock or custom JE pistons with the necessary machining. Even the stock pistons with Vee Two cams and FCRs would make a peppy street runner. Mind you, JE pistons are a great price. I'd go for a 944 kit tomorrow if it wasn't for the expense of re-boring and re-plating the barrels. Did they have a good price on special pistons?

One other thing, I think there is also the need for special collets or shims, longer valve stems or machined collet grooves with some of the Vee Two cams. Brad has dealt with these issues, you would have to ask him or one of the other board mechanics.

I think Brad once told me that the IE cams are too much with the long manifolds. I'll have to ask him if he meant certain rpm cylinder pressure, or valve overlap, etc; I can't remember. I was planning to use them in my bike to see what would happen. I would also like to do an MBP type head set up one day. Those IE cams give you the cheapest option. If the problem is too high cylinder pressure at a certain rpm, then an Igniteck (and 98 RON) will give the ignition timing flexibility to rectify this. If on the other hand the IE cams are too big or hot for the long manifold engine, then maybe it's a trade off in bottom end or mid range weakness. That would be annoying in a street motor. If anyone can say what the issue is, or had FHE, it could clarify whether you can use these cams. MBP reckon these cams are worth 6hp on a ported, big valve, 944/964, short manifold motor. You could test them in a long manifold motor. I wonder if you could make the IE cams work with adjustable pulleys and the right timing adjustment?

Can't help but ogle the Vee Two timing gears, the reduction of rotating mass gets me excited.

I know, lots of parts (and in case I forget, my wife reminds me regularly). Gotta get the remaining parts and all the knowledge to make some of the work nicely together.

The VeeTwo cams (210 and 212 both) say they require longer intake valves because of their 1.25-1.35mm additional lift.  When I got the cams originally, I made sure to get the longer-stemmed intake valves to hopefully prevent needing any odd shims. When I got the cams and intake valves, I also picked up the exhaust valves so they'd be changed at the same time.

Speaking of valves... I do not know what I need to do to put these new valves into the heads correctly (beyond dropping them into the appropriate hole in the head and shimming them).  I do not know whether this requires me, or at least means I should, "lap the valves", replace or recut valve seats and/or valve guides.  All a big gray IZ_ to me.

---

After a bit of sleep deprivation and some hungriness going on, I've decided to lean towards the following setup, and will begin asking more direct questions related to this "plan" (and still welcome any and all suggestions, advice, criticisms/critiques, things to avoid, and things to remember).   

Here's the current tentative planned setup:

banked carbs/ long manifolds / V-series heads / VeeTwo -210 Torque Cams & related valves / original cylinders / proper designed pistons

What I've got:
- This Motor's Crankcases, cranks, rods, and all other things internal (not splitting the cases)
- This Motor's original Cylinders (92mm bore with cross hatch clearly visible, no gouges, very clean) (not going to reuse original pistons though)
- OEM Long intake manifolds (and OEM exhaust manifolds for that matter)
- Banked Keihin FCR 41 carbs
- "V" Series heads from 02-900ie Motor
- VeeTwo -210 "Torque" Cams
- VeeTwo 43/38 valves (with longer stem on intake valves)
- MBP collets
- Fresh seals, valve gaskets, base gaskets, etc all around

What I've not got (yet):
- Aftermarket pistons with bigger/deeper valve pockets (intake valve relief pocket +1.25mm/+1.00mm), and perhaps a modest increase in compression.
- Squish wax for checking piston-head clearance to choose base gasket thickness, and for checking piston-valve clearance

Not sure what I'm missing at this point.  I can't possibly have thought of everything.  Had considered replacing cylinder studs, but these are the later generation, updated ones, and I have only read about the early ones breaking when highly modified.

The "W" heads, cams, valves, original pistons will go on the parts shelves. The 02-900ie cams, valves, cylinders and pistons will remain on the shelves. 

---

Pistons
On the pistons, rather than machine what I've got and reuse the old pistons and rings, I thought I'd "decide" on new pistons in the same bore size (92mm), which should give me a good seal with the new rings with only a hone to the cylinder.  That's what I was thinking at least... Lay your opinions on the matter on me!

As far as the modest increase in compression:  OEM is 9.5:1, Pistal HC is 10.8:1, Ferracci "Street" is 11.1:1, and JE is 11.5:1.  I thought I might shoot for somewhere between 10.5:1-11.0:1 and that the Pistal's 10.8:1 seems kind of ideal because its not "too high", and from there see if that can run on pump gas via straightforward ignition timing adjustments (either at pickups, or getting an Ignitech unit).  I suppose even if I was 'wrong' and it is too high compression, I could use a thicker base gasket to reduce compression?

---

Assembly Process
For installing, I'll need to assemble the heads and make sure there's enough clearance during valve overlap.  Later on, put down an initial base gasket on the crankcases, and lube the sides of and install the pistons into the cylinders, and install to the conrods/crankcase. Put waxes on piston crown and install the head for checking piston/head clearance - turn crank so piston goes to TDC and take it all apart again to check what sizes transferred marks, and to make changes to base gasket if necessary.

Once the base gasket is sorted out, the piston's valve pockets get the clay strips, and the head installed with belts and the timing set correctly, turn the crank to move piston and valves - transferring wax marks to valves to show clearance. If there's not enough, then I've boogered up the piston-designing process, and can either pull the pistons and have them machined a bit, or toss in a bigger base gasket (though that would lower compression ratio more I believe, though maybe not a bad thing)

Some gray areas during assembly, I think I've noted throughout but to reiterate concisely, are:
-  Replacing the valves with same size (diameter) --> Anything required or advised here?

- When 'mock' assembling the motor with wax for getting correct thickness base gaskets, or checking piston/valve clearance, do I need the rings installed, or can I leave them off until I know its all 'good' for "The Final Assembly"?  If I put them on the piston (by the way, how does one do this correctly to avoid scratching/marring the piston or overly stretching/breaking a piston ring?) If they need to be "on", can they be "removed" to be reinstalled if I need to send the pistons off to be machined (because I'll likely want to follow up the machining with a thermal coating to have them thoroughly "done" up).

- If I am right about only needing to hone the cylinder for a new set of pistons/rings, should I hold off on doing this until it would immediately precede "The Final Assembly"? Or do it upfront, or its not really important so long as you do it, or you don't need to do this at all?

- What else do I need reminding of, or a lesson in, or should go research?

hoping to get some engine-building 101 info i have missed, as well as whether the tentative plan is sound.

but...

Quote from: koko64 on April 12, 2011, 03:29:01 PM
Can't help but ogle the Vee Two timing gears, the reduction of rotating mass gets me excited.

The lighter spinning parts list includes:
Sprag Gear - Lightened by Fast Frank Racing;
Layshaft Timing Gear - Lightened by Fast Frank Racing;
DP lightweight layshaft pulleys;
VeeTwo lightweight adjustable cam pulleys;
VeeTwo lightweight primary gear kit (hunting tooth ratio) (primary gear pair: crankshaft & driven plus lightweight oil pump gear);
and replaced the worn out steel basket with an old aluminum Nichols MFG clutch basket and aluminum clutch pack.

Going to sort the motor's "main components" before doing any other "fun things"

With the engine mods to the heads, and light weight internals below, that thing should spin up! [evil]

g'day jv..
you n me must think alike!
I have been down the path you going and mulled over the things you are.
Same as you I'm nopro engine builder, but fortunately, I know some knowledgable people that have steered me.
I have the early 900 engine with V heads. 984 kit, 210 cams, ported heads, long manifolds and 41mm flat side carbs.

I'll give my opinion on what UI can but typing is not my favorite part of this forum and yours is a big post with lots of questions!! :)
From what you say, I reckon your on the right path but pro builders are better to answer assembly questions, but I did lots of assembly and disassembly to get the squish-valve piston measurements right.
I found that I didn't have to machine the pockets on my pistons. The pistons came with the DP big bore kit so I dont know who made them. But from what I'm told, a lot of the hi-comp pistons are machined to allow for higher lift valves. You will have to machine the standard pistons tho, if you use em.
You will have to lap in the new valves, but thats not a difficult job. I found I couldn't put in bigger valves with the 210's because of valve overlap clearences.

I powdercaoted the cases but I have the heads and barrels coated with a heat dispering coating that'll resist the higher temps.

the red bolt allows the oil to go to the other side of the engine to feed the underpiston cooling jet. as it is, the rear piston only see's the oil jet for 180deg because the crank wheel blocks it. Getiing oil to the other side allow's it to see 360deg (see my rebuild thread for more detailed explantion)

Like you I also have the veetwo primary gears (fitted only about a month ago), cam pulleys ect....   a lot of similarities...    [thumbsup]

Off topic, but monsta, I swear, I can hear the aussie accent as I read your posts... it's crazy!

Quote from: monsta on April 13, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
...Same as you I'm nopro engine builder, but fortunately, I know some knowledgable people that have steered me.
I have the early 900 engine with V heads. 984 kit, 210 cams, ported heads, long manifolds and 41mm flat side carbs.
....From what you say, I reckon your on the right path but pro builders are better to answer assembly questions, but I did lots of assembly and disassembly to get the squish-valve piston measurements right.

Awesome. I really appreciate the info. The more I can get before hand, the better I figure.

If I recall correctly, the 984 kit is 96mm pistons, and I think I remember reading that it requires the crankcases to be machined a bit more to fit in the bigger diameter cylinders... but again, hazy recollection. I bet you have gobs of power.

Quote from: monsta on April 13, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
....I found that I didn't have to machine the pockets on my pistons. The pistons came with the DP big bore kit so I dont know who made them. But from what I'm told, a lot of the hi-comp pistons are machined to allow for higher lift valves. ....You will have to machine the standard pistons tho, if you use em.

I hope to avoid reusing the OEM pistons that I have, but I do have my eye on a set of almost no-miles OEM take-offs from a bike that got a big bore kit early in its life, so I might grab those in case I do end up doing OEM pistons. Just not sure about machining after-the-fact on used pistons.

ON PISTONS:
Sure would be nice if I could just order up some off-the-shelf aftermarket pistons that would bolt right in with no additional modifications necessary.

One of the guys I've talked to who has done duc engine building recommended against Wiseco and JE pistons... heavily.  Didn't say anything about Mahles and he sells Pistals so he might have bias, but perhaps from experience.  If the Pistal pistons would work straight away - require no machining, it seems like it would be preferable, despite their higher cost for the off-the-shelf parts .   My only issue is, I can't see a nice diagram that shows how deep those pockets are in comparison to the OEM stuff, and the only Pistal pistons for the 900 motor that I have seen state-side are big bore (94mm or 95mm), rather than 92mm drop-ins, so its not easy to get a measurement of the depth of the cut outs in the 92mm "drop-in" Pistals. (I'm trying to avoid going big-bore on it because I don't want the additional requirement and cost of boring/plating right now if its avoidable).

ON MEASURING THE CUT OUTS - OEM & AFTERMARKET - TO SEE DIFFERENCE IN DEPTHS
First, to make sure I got things straight:
If the OEM pistons would require the intake pocket to be machined +1.25mm/1.00mm, then an aftermarket piston that had a pocket that was deeper by that amount would work out of the box, yes?

That said, lets see if I'm going about this correctly to begin with:
In measuring that depth, I can use distance from the "flat" surface of the piston's face to the bottom of the relief pocket - that's the easiest way to determine the stock cut-out depth, yes?

Or do I need to measure from the wrist-pin up to the cut-out's bottom in case the "height" to the outside/flat surface of the piston to the wrist pin is different?  (I initially thought they would need to be the same, and that compression is only increased by building up the center 'crown' area... but now I realize that was "assuming" this when I did not know it to be a fact - i certainly have not verified it by any method yet)

Quote from: monsta on April 13, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
....You will have to lap in the new valves, but thats not a difficult job.

From what I understand, that's the straightforward process of getting the seat area clean and is done by spinning a valve with lapping compound in the seat and applying only light pressure - not pushing on it, and you have to make sure to clean the hell out of it afterwards to make sure you don't leave any of that compound behind. If I understand this correctly - one of many things I'll be doing for my first time.     I believe I read that some people suggest using an old valve for the lapping when putting in new valves so that you don't remove any special coatings on the new valves, if present. elsewhere I've read that they "self-lap" during the first good heat cycle so some people have quit doing this.

Quote from: monsta on April 13, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
....I found I couldn't put in bigger valves with the 210's because of valve overlap clearances.

Good to know. You still are using both the OEM sized 43mm intake and 38mm exhaust then?

Quote from: monsta on April 13, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
the red bolt allows the oil to go to the other side of the engine to feed the underpiston cooling jet. as it is, the rear piston only see's the oil jet for 180deg because the crank wheel blocks it. Getiing oil to the other side allow's it to see 360deg (see my rebuild thread for more detailed explantion)

I got some reading to do then.

Quote from: monsta on April 13, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
Like you I also have the veetwo primary gears (fitted only about a month ago), cam pulleys ect....   a lot of similarities...    [thumbsup]

What's that feel like afterwards? Noticeable or not much?

Plumber's putty works really well for checking piston to valve clearances.

Quote from: j v on April 13, 2011, 10:20:18 AM
Awesome. I really appreciate the info. The more I can get before hand, the better I figure.

If I recall correctly, the 984 kit is 96mm pistons, and I think I remember reading that it requires the crankcases to be machined a bit more to fit in the bigger diameter cylinders... but again, hazy recollection. I bet you have gobs of power.

I hope to avoid reusing the OEM pistons that I have, but I do have my eye on a set of almost no-miles OEM take-offs from a bike that got a big bore kit early in its life, so I might grab those in case I do end up doing OEM pistons. Just not sure about machining after-the-fact on used pistons.

ON PISTONS:
Sure would be nice if I could just order up some off-the-shelf aftermarket pistons that would bolt right in with no additional modifications necessary.

One of the guys I've talked to who has done duc engine building recommended against Wiseco and JE pistons... heavily.  Didn't say anything about Mahles and he sells Pistals so he might have bias, but perhaps from experience.  If the Pistal pistons would work straight away - require no machining, it seems like it would be preferable, despite their higher cost for the off-the-shelf parts .   My only issue is, I can't see a nice diagram that shows how deep those pockets are in comparison to the OEM stuff, and the only Pistal pistons for the 900 motor that I have seen state-side are big bore (94mm or 95mm), rather than 92mm drop-ins, so its not easy to get a measurement of the depth of the cut outs in the 92mm "drop-in" Pistals. (I'm trying to avoid going big-bore on it because I don't want the additional requirement and cost of boring/plating right now if its avoidable).

ON MEASURING THE CUT OUTS - OEM & AFTERMARKET - TO SEE DIFFERENCE IN DEPTHS
First, to make sure I got things straight:
If the OEM pistons would require the intake pocket to be machined +1.25mm/1.00mm, then an aftermarket piston that had a pocket that was deeper by that amount would work out of the box, yes?

That said, lets see if I'm going about this correctly to begin with:
In measuring that depth, I can use distance from the "flat" surface of the piston's face to the bottom of the relief pocket - that's the easiest way to determine the stock cut-out depth, yes?

Or do I need to measure from the wrist-pin up to the cut-out's bottom in case the "height" to the outside/flat surface of the piston to the wrist pin is different?  (I initially thought they would need to be the same, and that compression is only increased by building up the center 'crown' area... but now I realize that was "assuming" this when I did not know it to be a fact - i certainly have not verified it by any method yet)

yeah, my aftermarket pistons worked out of the box.That was with the 96mm big bore.

yep, you'll have to measure from the pin.
The cost of new hi-comp pistons may be easier to deal with if balanced with the cost of machining the old ones (thats if you can determine that the new ones already have correct pocket depth)

Quote from: j v on April 13, 2011, 10:20:18 AM

From what I understand, that's the straightforward process of getting the seat area clean and is done by spinning a valve with lapping compound in the seat and applying only light pressure - not pushing on it, and you have to make sure to clean the hell out of it afterwards to make sure you don't leave any of that compound behind. If I understand this correctly - one of many things I'll be doing for my first time.     I believe I read that some people suggest using an old valve for the lapping when putting in new valves so that you don't remove any special coatings on the new valves, if present. elsewhere I've read that they "self-lap" during the first good heat cycle so some people have quit doing this.
Good to know. You still are using both the OEM sized 43mm intake and 38mm exhaust then?

there must be a video out there somewhere showing how its done... but your on the right track.
I used the new valves to lap in, the veetwo ones are nitride coated and the faces ground afterwards, so no coating on the face...
yeah,i'm still using stock valve size's (tho longer, to allow for smaller base circle on the cams)

Quote from: j v on April 13, 2011, 10:20:18 AM

I got some reading to do then.

What's that feel like afterwards? Noticeable or not much?

Its a hoot to ride, initially not as much as I thought it would be, but then I put the old exhaust on and there it was! the Xbox robbed some power, I'm guessing because it dosn't have the crossover inside, so it dosn't have the scavaging effect. I'm gunna stick with the xbox tho, till I can build my own under engine exhaust. It'll be form over function for a while...

Quote from: Punx Clever on April 13, 2011, 09:27:16 AM
Off topic, but monsta, I swear, I can hear the aussie accent as I read your posts... it's crazy!

hahaha    maaate!

Cool project! [thumbsup]

Quote from: alfisti on April 13, 2011, 03:03:11 PM
Plumber's putty works really well for checking piston to valve clearances.

I have used lead solder in the past to measure the piston to head clearance on built engines.  Handy that there is no need to dissemble the engine.  Just remove the spark plug and turn the crank to compress the solder.  Of course, you do have to be precise with the placement of the solder.

Caveat: I have never used this method on a Ducati (not that is should be any different!) :)

ime the je pistons give about 1mm squish clearance as is, the closest point being the outermost edge as the piston crown taper is at a lower angle than the head angle.

machining 3mm off the top of the je (straight cut from the side) drops the comp from 11.5 to 10.8.

i'm sure the je valve reliefs are big enough as is for the 210 and 212 cams.  it's not the max lift that requires them to be deepened on std pistons, but the lift at tdc inlet opening.  210 especially has quite a bit more.

i'd use the longer valves for the ease of shimming if you use the vee two cams.

the 750 cams wil hurt it more than the 900ie cams, but i personally wouldn't run either or the 212 (with the long manifolds).  212 are bigger than the specs suggest - 14 degrees more inlet duration on the last ones i checked.  had an extra 7 degrees either side of the 1mm lift specs from memory.  210 are also i think, haven't fitted any for years to remember.

piston rings come on and off easily, just be careful.  get some ring pliers.

I've got the long valves for that very reason. I test fit them in the heads yesterday while cleaning up the heads / inspecting the rockers (have at least one closer that has flaking), and it looks like it will be a *very* straightforward shimming job.


Cool.   Will definitely grab the ring pliers to do this correctly.  I'm hoping to hear back from Pistal about their pistons' dimensions, so I can figure out how close I'd be to 'correct' by ordering their off-the-shelf items, versus ordering up one-off "deep-relief'ed" pistons, and testing this in relation to the standard off-the-shelf JE pistons.

The plans for the 900 IE cams, or more preferably the -212 cams is to have them put in the other Monster 900 (the one I've had from the beginning), with short manifolds and split singles. Going to figure out big-bore, crank lightening, porting, when that job is nearer (going to be at least 1.5-2 years into the future before I get to it).

So when I started going through the heads to clean them up, and see how all the hardware looked that I was going to be reusing I found it odd that at least two rockers showed a pretty good amount of wear. Things cleaned up OK for the most part.... but the one closing rocker that was pitted/flaking - that caught me by surprise.

I kind of always thought that was the stuff of Desmoquattro's.  Not sure if anybody else has had this kind of experience before.

I may check out the rockers in the other heads, and frankenstein together the ones that look the best. Replacements are crazy high priced I see.

That said, anybody know places that do replate 2V rockers? Everywhere I look it specifies desmoquattro rockers which are certainly not interchangeable. I haven't contacted anyone just yet, but again - the information gathering stage.

I also saw folks mentioning, from a thread a few years old, where they were investigating DLC coating the rockers. Anybody have any experience or knowledge about this?

Still on the whole rockers element, I'm looking at the rockers in the "W" heads to see if I can get away with a switch here or there and have a complete "good" set for now.   5 of 8 rocker spindles came out "normally". 3/8 (all in the same head) are stuck as a mofo.   Will be getting a larger weight slap hammer to tackle this - been communicating with Bob at Desmo Valvola Servizio ("DVS": http://desmo-valvola-servizio.com/ (http://desmo-valvola-servizio.com/)), and I've picked up a few of his tools to see how they work, and he's included a newer prototype slap hammer to give a go.   Nice fella.

In taking apart the "W" heads, I found an odd (high) number of shims all over the place - shims along with the spacers on each side of the closer rockers, and several thin shims on each side of the clips at the opening rockers, along with the normal 1-per-side thick shims....

While I am well aware of how "green" I am at heads - having seen intimately only the "innards" of my original M900 (with V heads), and the 02-900ie's (with V heads) - they both were "standard" and just like the parts diagrams - no extra shims.   Is this common to 'extra shim" the area - it seems like there's was MUCH more resistance in turning the clips to remove them, etc.   And I'd think I'd describe that as "bad resistance" for a group of parts that rotate quickly about those shafts.

Anyhow, if a "good" set can be made of what I've got, then I plan to get the remaining ones replated and DLC coated (if this is a real possibility and a good idea) to have as "spares" for either bike in the future.   Along those lines - would it be beneficial to have the cams themselves coated to prevent wear?  Seems like they are the most important part and the risk of a flaking rocker isn't so much "performance deterioration" from the slight change it would create valve shim clearance, but the real risk would be a non-smooth surface running on the cam - creating excessive friction and thus wear on the cam itself.

let me know what you folks think about that, I'm just spit balling over here.

---

Haven't had much time to really "work", but for entertainment's sake, I mocked up the heads on the cylinder studs last night, using M10 aluminum spacers to take up the room where the cylinder should be. (kind of the opposite of using the spacers above the cylinder when removing the head to keep the cylinder against the crankcase). And I've used rubber bands to keep the rods centered between the cylinder studs, with the purpose of preventing the rods from rubbing up and down against the crankcase.

This gave me a fun photo-op, I put on the fancy valve and cam-end covers, tossed in the cams and put the pulley's on, and even put the intake manifolds on, to "mock-up" what a final version might look like.  (ALSO, without the cylinders/heads, it doesn't look very much like anything important, but rather a blob of mechanical gears, etc).   Nothing was put on for "permanence", no gaskets nor tightened bolts - just a teaser mock-up to keep morale high on this end.

Pics for you guys - the smallest token of appreciation I can give for your help thus far, taken with the iPhone with "HDR" mode selected:


Knocked the brown tarnish off the stock headers, and mocked up the Arrow carbon high pipes, and you can see the MH900e style billet exhaust flanges, and the Aella stainless exhaust half rings.

i've seen quite a few failed 2v rockers on heads i've stripped for work.  usually they never come out and it's hard to check them without a lot of disassembly work so no one knows if they have issues.  i get them redone by the people who do my 4v rockers, a local industrial hardchromer.  strip, polish, chrome 50 microns thick, hydrogen de-imbrittle, polish.

some pins are loose, some tight.  maybe later ones are looser.

the shims got more consistant with later engines, to the point of 1 thick one either side of the closer, 2 thin ones either side of the opener locating clip.  earlier ones you have to shim as required with the available sizes - a pita.  depends who has been in there before too - that's a real unknown with them.  people do some wierd stuff.

dunno about dlc.

Regarding painting/coating the cylinders..

I have painted them using Lauer's (LCW) Duraheat and had good success, depending on prep.  I never thought about the heat retention issue though and I asked them about it.  

"Duraheat has a metallic component which aids in heat shedding.  We have had many customers use it for motorcycle engines on Vtwins which as you know are heat sensitive.  You should have no negative issues with using Duraheat on your cylinders."

Gotcha.   I had shot a message to Swain-Tech coatings to see about their heat dispersing thermal coatings, but the reply I got was that they parts coming to them would not only need to be bare (as I had anticipated) but also in like-new cleanliness.   Well that ain't happening, so its already off the list.   Next 'concern' was that he said their thermal coating, which is black (and I was thinking would look great), was not a cosmetic finish, and certainly not look so pretty and all after a season of use and the associated heat cycles - he emphasized it was a performance coating, etc.

Something like that might be better on a non-naked bike (like if I am able to pull off the 2v SBK project at some point).

No huge developments or anything here.   Got the sprag and layshaft timing gears back from Fast Frank Racing after being lightened.   I may send all the gears that are sitting on the table off to be coated - but I'll need to do some more reading on that.  I figure if its 'nice' to do, might as well while they are out.

Here's the lightened gears

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TbC_8Ca5e1I/AAAAAAAAGtY/qJPAtU1weSw/s400/008g.jpg)

here's the 'all-the-gears' picture; the lightened gears along with the vee two primary gears & oil pump gear

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TbC_8N5N5UI/AAAAAAAAGtU/eumMjr_I71M/s640/008h.jpg)

holey lightened gears, batman!

nice

[drool]

i assume balanced too?

 [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down]

Quote from: ducatiz on April 21, 2011, 05:28:14 PM
holey lightened gears, batman!
i assume balanced too?

man, thinking back on the ones that were lightened by Frank, I had asked him so many questions - I seem to have forgotten this one - or at least I don't recall bringing it up (I was picking his brain about piston machining for this motor, and crankcase machining for pivot location on the 2vSBK project).   I'll hit him up and ask him promptly - I plan on getting more done (the same ones on my 'all-put-together' M900 when I put in the veetwo lightweight primaries in it).


with the VeeTwo primaries - I have to 'assume so' as they weren't lightened after the fact - they come this way from VeeTwo as a lightweight 3-gear kit (Primary, Driven, Oil Pump), with a hunting tooth ratio and a spec sheet about the hardness and what not.   

Now that I see Brook Henry has a new website up, I plan on asking him a few questions about the VeeTwo 900 cams (-210 for this bike, -212 for my other M900 when it gets short manifolds, etc) and also what grinds they have for the 1000/1100DS (and evo) so I can compare all the 1100 cam options since there is "a lot" out there:
M1100
M1100evo
Hyper
DP Hypermotard Racing (96451008B)
DP Racing 1000/1100DS (DU14812441B/DU14812451B) (if different from DP Hyper cams)
NCR
V2 (multiple grinds)

I'll see if I can ask him any manufacturing related aspects about the primaries while I'm at it.


So, opinions on 'gear-coatings'?
I see there is:
Jet-Hot Gear & Camclad: http://www.jet-hot.com/sdfcoatings.html (http://www.jet-hot.com/sdfcoatings.html)
HP Coatings Anti-friction Coatings: http://www.hpcoatings.com/hpc_antifriction.aspx (http://www.hpcoatings.com/hpc_antifriction.aspx)
Performance Coatings Dry Film Lubricant: http://www.performancecoatings.com/index2.html (http://www.performancecoatings.com/index2.html)

The other big thing I liked about having the gears lightened by FFR was that there was a fast turn-around time using the gears I sent in - I didn't want to do a core-exchange for the timing gear, as its part of a matched pair of gears, with the other timing gear on the crankshaft itself - and i was taught that they should "stay-together" - be it the matched primaries or others.   Perhaps its not 'required', but whatev - I got mine back and fast too.

If that HP is the same one in Oklahoma, then they are top notch.  I used them for SFL coatings on VW engines.  Take a 1600 VW motor, bore and stroke it out to 2.3L, balance the crank statically and dynamically with the Carillo rods and pistons..  then SFL the whole interior, cam, lifters, everything.

practically doesn't need oil.

I had thought about doing the cams and rockers on the ducs heads as well, then i also had thought about DLC. 

That said, currently all paddles are out of the water for a week or two as things are getting busy 'outside the garage' (heaven forbid).

I would do the rockers, but not the cams.  The polished surface of the cam should be fine.

I used POR's aluminum engine enamel on my CB750 after hearing that the rattle can (VHT) paints do not hold up well on exposed motorcycle engines. I have used it on auto engines and it seems to hold up fine on them.

I was hesitant on spraying the POR enamel, because after I mixed it the metal flakes didn't seem to distribute in the thinned paint. After I sprayed it, it looked like shit, the bright silver paint was littered with black streaks and spots. However, by the next morning the metallic flakes had evenly dispersed and it was a wonderful raw aluminum color. They advertise that you can brush it and I bet you could. It seems to self level and even out as it dries.

I have noticed that it has slightly darkened deep in the fins, but its tough as nails and I would use it again. The picture below is after it had dried.

http://www.por15.com/ENGINE-ENAMEL/productinfo/EEPA/ (http://www.por15.com/ENGINE-ENAMEL/productinfo/EEPA/)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5645145640_60fdd6cbfe.jpg)

G'day j v.
How's the build going?

How are you going to retard the ignition 2-3 degrees on max advance with hi comp pistons? You gonna use different ignition boxes, move the pick ups or go the Igniteck?

I've got JE's in there and are running the Igniteck at 34 max advance from 6000 rpm with 98 RON (95 MON?) I had previously moved the pick ups and that worked ok, although the lower rpm operation is much smoother with the Igniteck.

Haven't gotten much further on progress right now - figuring I'll have to figure that out when I get there. I have a set of the DP 1.1 ignition boxes to try, as well as the originals, and looking at either ignitech, or seeing what alternatives there might be (such as Silent Hektik or AS Uotani)

 [popcorn]

You back in the garage yet?

Negative.   Working on getting some tools in (ordered a primary gear puller at long last) and still waiting on something, anything, even a status update on my now-2-month-old Pro Italia OEM parts order. (sigh).

Still no substantial motor updates.  Those parts that were on order from ProItalia: Still on order, can't get a status on them.  Kind of a lost summer, as I sit and study for the bar 8 days / week and don't even ride the bike that is all put together...


But, I have accumulated a few parts.  The fixer-upper M900 will have lots of "916" parts. Front wheel, forks, ...rear wheel...

Here's the front end, mock-assembled:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V9zXxU8p-oQ/Tf_0j74kQ5I/AAAAAAAAHNA/lNsbzhxEk-g/s800/IMG_7298.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-i312HFIULhY/Tf_0gZeouKI/AAAAAAAAHNE/kr3xsviCpdA/s800/IMG_4739.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I7xN4mVrvEA/Tf_0cbo3F3I/AAAAAAAAHNI/0jhxbhjcmuY/s800/IMG_2102.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wKXFeKEoIQc/Tf_0bLqTYPI/AAAAAAAAHNM/CHWunidGQb8/s800/IMG_2383.jpg)

IMA billet triples, IMA damper clamp (with insert so I can use a SBK damper clamp, and thus add a splash o' blue to match the blue handlebar), 916 forks, billet fairing brackets, carbon headlight brackets, 916 front wheel, BCM/Antron Brembo full-floating iron rotors, Brembo billet GP calipers - reanodized black with blue paint to fill in letters, RoadRacing carbon caliper coolers (bracket to be re-anodized)...

Rear wheel to match - DUCATI RACING model 17x5.5" rear wheel. SSS on the way (fingers crossed)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M_cyd-Eh69k/Tf_0lBQlIYI/AAAAAAAAHM8/MsxR09vD3KI/s800/IMG_4386.jpg)

Can`t believe I missed this serious carbed build, nice project.

(http://one%20of%20the%20guys%20i've%20talked%20to%20who%20has%20done%20duc%20engine%20building%20recommended%20against%20Wiseco%20and%20JE%20pistons...%20heavily.)

Heavily arguing should mean some hard facts against them.
What were they?

Not so much to add,
shimming rockers you should go for as centered as possible, freeplay max 0.05-0.10mm (both sides together).
What I was recommended.

this is ridiculous; parts were ordered on April 1st, and normally i'm pretty lenient with stuff, wasn't really in a rush, but the clown handling this at PI hasn't even ordered some of the parts yet!  so the motor continues to sit with the case covers off, waiting on some of the most mundane parts: bearings, snap rings, nuts, and the safety washers you bend around the nuts on the gears.   You're thinking "why not order them from somewhere else?" ...because they've still got my $200+ hard earned moto-funds.   I've given up on them and have convinced my wife that her much kinder and mild-mannered demeanor might make things go faster - so far, to no avail: She's calling or emailing every other day with promises of "I'll get it ordered today and send you and update" or "i'll email you an update by the end of the day" over and over again!

so the motor sits, waiting for the august holiday to come to an end (not that the italian's awesome holiday is slowing anything down, apparently some folks in internet sales across our own country take a 4-month holiday of their own), and in the meantime i've gotten the Febur SSS kit with linkage rod and rocker, gotten the offset front sprockets on order, 'figured out' (tentatively) the whole SSS rear sprocket & cush drives setup, mocked the whole thing up with a spare set of crankcases, made measurements and mental guesses at how the LH high-mount exhaust's intermediate pipe could be altered to clear the bulge of the swingarm, and looked at a lot of dirty pictures on the internet.

In addition, I've packed up damn near most of my life (minus the garage) for a move to Nashville, bikes and the bed are about all that's left in Dallas.   ho hum.

 [popcorn]

meanwhiles, here's the rundown of lightweight spinny parts on the motor:

Veetwo lightweight adj. cam pulleys, DP lightweight layshaft pulleys, VeeTwo Lightweight Oil Pump Gear, VeeTwo Lightweight Primary Gear, VeeTwo Lightweight Driven gear; FFR ultralight layshaft gear, FFR lightened Sprag Gear, FFR lightened flywheel

The offset front sprocket(s) are on their way from a Febur dealer for the Febur SSS, but its currently packed in a box and not on the bike since it will require some modification to the LH side intermediate pipe for the highmount exhaust.

Front end is pretty clean: 916 forks and wheel, BCM/Brembo full floating irons, Brembo billet GP 2-piece calipers anodized black, a 916 front fender currently, the IMA triples with risers, Ohlins damper, carbon gauge cluster with analog tach, carbon old-school 98-99 Monster front fairing with zero-gravity double bubble smoke windscreen, aluminum fairing brackets (score!), rizoma reservoirs & SBK master cylinders with folding levers, bright BLUE rizoma handlebar, euro LH switch, and replaced RH switch.

Got the carbon long bellypan, underseat side panels, tank buckleguard/kneeguard, seat cowl, ignition cover, rear-hugger for the DSS swingarm I put back on and cf gas cap too.   I'm seriously considering re-welding on the back end so I can mount up the Ducati Monster Cup carbon cafe-cowl (i know its ridiculous huge, but i figure it will be fun and different and i've got the matching street and track versions of the front fairing to boot!)

Some very cool parts there.
That thing will spin up something fierce! [evil]
I envy your aluminum fairing brackets as my DP mild steel ones for the DP carbon fairing kills me.
How much lighter are the two piece GP calipers?
As a fellow bike anorexic, I appreciate the sum of the weight loss both internally and externally to the bike.

Ok, had my lunch break, back to work.

hardly any lighter, these aren't the ones with titanium pistons, they have the standard Brembo equipment aluminum pistons, and as two piece calipers, aren't going to be as light as the monoblocks, ever, because of the bolts (which I replaced with titanium-anodized blue-bolts).


pm sent re: fairing stays.