I was out on an afternoon ride today, and as I was pulling into my development, I heard a mild grinding noise. Then as I coasted into my driveway to a stop, I heard a clanking sound. I saw a part laying on the ground just below my kickstand mount. After some inspection of the part and looking around, I figured out it was the front sprocket retaining plate. Also, there seems to be some gouging of the swingarm by the chain. This is probably the mild grinding sound I heard.
I just purchased the bike less than 2 months ago, and it only has 1300 miles. When I purchased the bike, the dealer installed a 14 tooth sprocket, and I have not done any service / customizations. Is it safe to continue riding the bike? or should I wait for the dealer to inspect it?
I would not ride without the retaining plate installed. If there is no damage besides light gouging on the swing arm and there is no damage to the retaining plate and you have the fasteners to properly reinstall the plate, fine. Otherwise, have the dealer come and pick up the bike. They put the sprocket on so they are responsible.
Thanks. I will notify the dealer... unfortunately, they are not open until Tuesday. [bang]
Hmmm... thats the second one I've heard about
You might find this interesting reading >> http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0)
>>You might find this interesting reading >> http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0)
Interesting reading indeed. 7 pages of postings and yet no further reports from the OP after he took the 'bike to the dealer ? ? ? ?
Was there any further discussion ?
My old clunker uses same system, as does my '72 Honda, unless the two screws come loose ( from not using a threadlock compound ) there's no reason a 'bike that new should have any great wear on the retaining plate.
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 17, 2011, 04:15:35 PM
Hmmm... thats the second one I've heard about
You might find this interesting reading >> http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0)
Thanks for the link. I am reading it now... seems wierd that this guy had the "factory" 15t sprocket, whereas mine had human intervention and was changed out by the dealer, and both came loose. Now he did have more miles on his, and had his bike for over a year. Good thing mine is only two months old and still under warranty. Plus the swing arm does not have as much damage as his. Looks like I caught the problem earlier than he did. Now that I think about it, when I started out on my ride, I heard a clink sound on the road, but didn't think anything about it because I assumed it was some clunker cage dropping parts all over the highway. :-[ Luckily, this was on my return leg and was less than 20 miles out.
Quote from: WTSDS on July 17, 2011, 05:06:28 PM
unless the two screws come loose ( from not using a threadlock compound ) there's no reason a 'bike that new should have any great wear on the retaining plate.
I was thinking the same thing. Upon reviewing the HTML shop manual, that plate is not moving in relation to anything. It just rotates along with the drive sprocket. It seems that there should be no reason for both set screws to back out, assuming they have Loctite. The retaining plate is not damaged. The only marks are on the finish where the screw heads pull against the plate. Otherwise it is in great condition.
Quote from: WTSDS on July 17, 2011, 05:06:28 PM
>>You might find this interesting reading >> http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43390.0)
Interesting reading indeed. 7 pages of postings and yet no further reports from the OP after he took the 'bike to the dealer ? ? ? ?
Yeah, pity the OP over there didnt bother to get back with a follow up.
Just got done reading the entire linked thread. Something that was posted that seems a bit disturbing:
Quote from: j v on October 14, 2010, 12:32:51 PM
+1. Before every ride. Its not just checking tire pressure, but its looking at the parts of the bike that shouldn't wear, etc. Its incredibly important. I make the wife do it too so she is more familiar with the motorcycle.
In order to check the sprocket retainer, one has to remove the cover plate and check the torque on the screws... to what extent does a person have to check their vehicle every time before they ride? Do I have to frame out the bike and re-torque everything? I am curious how many people check these retainer screws every time?
this sounds like a dealer install error. AND a loose chain on top of it.
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 17, 2011, 08:54:04 PM
Just got done reading the entire linked thread. Something that was posted that seems a bit disturbing:
In order to check the sprocket retainer, one has to remove the cover plate and check the torque on the screws... to what extent does a person have to check their vehicle every time before they ride? Do I have to frame out the bike and re-torque everything? I am curious how many people check these retainer screws every time?
I ride every day year round. I check stuff over at oil changes, but usually don't take anything apart unless something is broken or its needed for a scheduled service. If a bike is put together correctly stuff doesn't just fall off. They don't often come put together correctly from a dealer or manufacture. I also usually give the bike quick glance over once or twice a week - just a minute or two to verify correct oil level, chain slack and that nothing is way out of whack.
Took some pictures this morning.
This angle shows the place where the retainer ring should be. It was difficult to see and maneuver the camera around the stock cans. Did not want to remove the cover plate because it would look like I was tampering with it.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02371.jpg)
I found this interesting, in this photo it looks like there is a lot of rust around the sprocket. Same picture as above, slightly different angle.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02372.jpg)
Gouging from chain on swing arm.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02370.jpg)
And another.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02369.jpg)
Where is the chain guide?
take the drive sprocket cover off, it's just 3 screws, not structural
Quote from: howie on July 18, 2011, 06:45:42 AM
Where is the chain guide?
Not sure I know what the chain guide is... but here is a picture of the retaining ring for the front sprocket. This is what I (luckily) found under the kickstand.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02373.jpg)
Quote from: ducatiz on July 18, 2011, 07:09:52 AM
take the drive sprocket cover off, it's just 3 screws, not structural
Just got off the phone with Ducati Roadside Assistance, they are going to cover the towing back to the dealer under warranty. I will have to work with the dealer on the specifics of the repair under warranty, but DRA advised not to touch anything until after the dealer looks at it, so that there is no question that this should be fixed under warranty.
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 18, 2011, 07:30:35 AM
Just got off the phone with Ducati Roadside Assistance, they are going to cover the towing back to the dealer under warranty. I will have to work with the dealer on the specifics of the repair under warranty, but DRA advised not to touch anything until after the dealer looks at it, so that there is no question that this should be fixed under warranty.
probably a good plan
It would seem to me that IF this is a concern, a quick glance at the swingarm in the upper guide area would put your fears to rest before each ride, or at the beginning of the day...
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 18, 2011, 07:28:29 AM
Not sure I know what the chain guide is...
Ducati refers to it as a "chain sliding shoe".
You can find it here:
http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do (http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do)
Download for your year.
Quote from: Raux on July 17, 2011, 09:49:20 PM
this sounds like a dealer install error. AND a loose chain on top of it.
+1 One wonders if they took a link out of the chain or otherwise adjusted the tension.
Even good dealerships make a mistake. It happens. Or, it could be an assembly error out of Italy. DAHIK that can happen, too.
Mine is safety wired on - The bolts are small but you can buy them already drilled
Quote from: Kev M on July 18, 2011, 07:51:24 AM
It would seem to me that IF this is a concern, a quick glance at the swingarm in the upper guide area would put your fears to rest before each ride, or at the beginning of the day...
True. Now I know where to look. [thumbsup]
Quote from: howie on July 18, 2011, 07:59:53 AM
Ducati refers to it as a "chain sliding shoe".
You can find it here:
http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do (http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do)
Download for your year.
Got it. Thx.
Here's the pics of the sliding shoes.
Left side
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02381.jpg)
Right side
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02379.jpg)
if the dealer did all the work on your bike and you haven't taken ANYTHING off the bike... dealer f*cked up. You don't even have the swingarm protector under the chain.
Quote from: bikepilot on July 18, 2011, 05:57:32 AM
I ride every day year round. I check stuff over at oil changes, but usually don't take anything apart unless something is broken or its needed for a scheduled service. If a bike is put together correctly stuff doesn't just fall off. They don't often come put together correctly from a dealer or manufacture. I also usually give the bike quick glance over once or twice a week - just a minute or two to verify correct oil level, chain slack and that nothing is way out of whack.
Before I ride, I do a walk around and visually inspect it while the engine is warming. Never thought to look at things so closely, though. I like what Kev M said, about taking a quick glance at the swing arm. I'll try to do that as part of my walk around.
That being said, I agree that things SHOULD NOT just fall off. But, maybe this basic assumption is incorrect.
Quote from: gage on July 18, 2011, 08:35:48 AM
Mine is safety wired on - The bolts are small but you can buy them already drilled
Do most dealers carry that sort of item? Sounds like it couldn't hurt to have them.
Quote from: Raux on July 18, 2011, 09:22:44 AM
if the dealer did all the work on your bike and you haven't taken ANYTHING off the bike... dealer f*cked up. You don't even have the swingarm protector under the chain.
Correct, the dealer has done all the work. The extent of my modifications are Zip tying an EZPass transponder on the handlebar riser, and screwing on a RAM mount on the handlebar.
I will ask the dealer about the swing arm protector and see what they say. Thx. [thumbsup]
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 18, 2011, 10:00:33 AM
Do most dealers carry that sort of item? Sounds like it couldn't hurt to have them.
The ones that are supporting racing programs should have them or know how to get them
I have not had mine out in a long time but I think it is M6 x 1.25? You should confirm that
I drilled mine but here is a website that I found.
http://www.drilledheadbolts.com/METRIC-GRADE-88-COURSE-THREAD_c85.htm (http://www.drilledheadbolts.com/METRIC-GRADE-88-COURSE-THREAD_c85.htm)
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 18, 2011, 08:56:28 AM
Got it. Thx.
Nope.
Go here:
http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do (http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do)
Enter 2011 696 (not ABS)
Go to page 74. Look for 1.
1 is the "chain sliding shoe".
You posted 11, which is the "sliding shoe".
I feel that the 14T sprocket is TOO small to allow proper chain clearance with the rubber protector on the swingarm. I didn't think twice about getting a new rear sprocket 3 teeth bigger than stock and also ordered a 110T chain at the same time. No problems.
I hope the dealer guys did not remove the rubber protector trying to give the chain more room. Big NO NO in my book.
The plate along with the two screws properly loctited, should not ever come loose.
Quote from: howie on July 18, 2011, 12:04:13 PM
Nope.
Go here:
http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do (http://www.ducati.com/services/maintenance/index.do)
Enter 2011 696 (not ABS)
Go to page 74. Look for 1.
1 is the "chain sliding shoe".
You posted 11, which is the "sliding shoe".
The piece, #1, is not there. Just the swing arm... (unless I am missing something)
Decided to move the chain to examine the damage. Is this a structural issue with the swing arm?
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02402.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02403.jpg)
The point is you are missing piece #1. Ask the dealer where it is.
The damage is not likely to hurt structural integrity, but it is still unacceptable.
The part you are missing is the plastic chain guide, item 1 in the parts diagram below.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6007/5952044575_41b09abb0e_b.jpg)
It ought be installed around the leading edge of the swingarm between the swingarm and the chain... and in your picture, it clearly is not there....
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 18, 2011, 02:06:16 PM(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02403.jpg)
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 18, 2011, 04:38:55 PM
It ought be installed around the leading edge of the swingarm between the swingarm and the chain... and in your picture, it clearly is not there....
Thanks ungeheuer. That is what I suspected... bummer. I will have to ask the dealer about what happened to it.
The dealer just dropped off the bike. They did a pretty good job fixing and cleaning things up.
Kudos to the Redline.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02411.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/manaloea/Ducati%20Sprocket%20Issue/DSC02412.jpg)
STOPPPPP!!!!
where the hell is your chain guide? did they answer why it was missing? what the hell happened?
DO NOT ride that bike.
Is that the same dealer that did the first work? FIND ANOTHER DEALER.
did they change the chain? it looks like metal flakes all over that one in the pic. they shaved down your swingarm and painted it?
I really would not feel good about this if it were my bike at this point.
Quote from: Raux on July 27, 2011, 02:17:36 PM
where the hell is your chain guide? did they answer why it was missing? what the hell happened?
DO NOT ride that bike.
Is that the same dealer that did the first work? FIND ANOTHER DEALER.
did they change the chain? it looks like metal flakes all over that one in the pic. they shaved down your swingarm and painted it?
I really would not feel good about this if it were my bike at this point.
I asked about the chain guard, and they said that when they put the 14t sprocket, the chain gets too close to the plastic and rubs against it.
I see what you mean about the flakes... definitely a combination of road dirt and other stuff.
Is the bike un-ride able? If I called them tomorrow and argued the point, do I have a leg to stand on?
Quote from: Raux on July 27, 2011, 02:17:36 PM
where the hell is your chain guide?.... what the hell happened?.... did they change the chain?.... they shaved down your swingarm and painted it?...
I really would not feel good about this if it were my bike at this point.
+1 [thumbsdown]
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 27, 2011, 04:47:58 PM
I asked about the chain guard, and they said that when they put the 14t sprocket, the chain gets too close to the plastic and rubs against it.
I ran 14t front sprocket on my M696
with the chain guide installed with zero issues for several thousand kilometers. And if there was to be any contact.... wouldnt you rather the chain chewed thru a sacrificial cheap and easily replaceable plastic guide... than chew up your swing arm??
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 27, 2011, 04:47:58 PMIs the bike un-ride able? If I called them tomorrow and argued the point, do I have a leg to stand on?
I dont know. But let me put this to you: Your bike was in perfect order, right? You then requested a dealer replace the stock 15t front sprocket with a 14t item.... and as a result of that... you have a damaged swing arm and a missing chain guide.
Its hard for me to tell from your pics, but personally I wouldnt be happy with a "shave and paint" repair to the swing arm if it was mine. I would want the bike returned to the same undamaged condition as it was prior to having a part removed and the sprocket swapped (did they ask or tell you that they intended to remove the chain guide?). They did the work, they need to make good the failure IMO. But its up to you to determine what level of repair you consider as having satisfied "make good".
And for the record, I really dont think the missing chain guide is the reason for your chain chewing up the swing arm - sure it may have helped limit the damage, but I dont think it not being there is the reason for the failure. Seems to me that from what you've said and shown us here..... the 14t sprocket probably just wasnt fitted correctly to begin with.
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 27, 2011, 06:07:47 PM
And for the record, I really dont think the missing chain guide is the reason for your chain chewing up the swing arm - sure it may have helped limit the damage, but I dont think it not being there is the reason for the failure. Seems to me that from what you've said and shown us here..... the 14t sprocket probably just wasnt fitted correctly to begin with.
When I spoke to the manager there, they identified the reason for the failure (the sprocket retention plate) was due to the lack of Loctite Red. The factory uses Red, but the technician who installed the 14t used Blue... obviously with unsatisfactory results.
I agree with your assertion that I started with a perfect bike, and should get one back. But the dealer made a good faith effort to compensate me for the inconvenience... probably not ethical to mention the details here on a public forum.
You need the guard. A chain at rest will hit the guide. Without it you will grind up the swing arm. The guide is a wearing part, the swing arm is not. If the debris on the chain is metal flakes your chain will not last too long. The repair manual calls for Loctite 222 (purple) which is low strength. Most of us use medium since low is hard to find. Next sprocket change you will need heat to get those screws out.
seriously, at this point, i would find another dealer, get Ducati North America involved and get a new swingarm out of it.
they screwed up the first mount, put nail polish on it, gave you a few bucks and hoped the issue will go away. [thumbsdown]
the guide IS SUPPOSED TO WEAR. when you go over a dip and the suspension drops, the chain hits the guide, 15t or 14t
leaving a chain on that has AL pieces jammed into the joints [thumbsdown]
there's a repair MANUAL for a reason.
Straight from the manual
-Front sprocket retaining screw M5x0.8 6Nm LOCK 1
-LOCK 1 Low-strength threadlocker. Loctite 222
i know it's your bike, but you seem new to either the brand or bikes.
I may not be a certified mechanic, but I can read a manual, and I know right from wrong.
There ARE a lot of certified Ducati mechanics on here though. take their advice if you don't want to take mine.
I agree with the others, your dealer sucks.
The plastic chain guide exists to guide the chain along its path and keep it off of the swingarm. Whoever removed that is a moron. Without it, your chain will eat up the swingarm every time you engine brake or hit a bump.
And strong locktite? WTF? [thumbsdown]
Quote from: Raux on July 27, 2011, 09:57:21 PM
seriously, at this point, i would find another dealer, get Ducati North America involved and get a new swingarm out of it.
they screwed up the first mount, put nail polish on it, gave you a few bucks and hoped the issue will go away. [thumbsdown]
the guide IS SUPPOSED TO WEAR. when you go over a dip and the suspension drops, the chain hits the guide, 15t or 14t
leaving a chain on that has AL pieces jammed into the joints [thumbsdown]
there's a repair MANUAL for a reason.
Straight from the manual
-Front sprocket retaining screw M5x0.8 6Nm LOCK 1
-LOCK 1 Low-strength threadlocker. Loctite 222
i know it's your bike, but you seem new to either the brand or bikes.
I may not be a certified mechanic, but I can read a manual, and I know right from wrong.
There ARE a lot of certified Ducati mechanics on here though. take their advice if you don't want to take mine.
I appreciate your advice, and will follow up with the dealer today. [thumbsup]
You are right, I am new to the brand, and motorcycles in general. If I had another bike to ride while this was sitting at the dealer waiting for parts to be shipped, it would not be so bad. But this bike is my daily driver, and pulling up to the pump in my truck is excruciating. [bang]
Getting a new dealer isn't so easy. The dealer that I go to now is just under 2 hours drive one way. The next closest one is ~3.5 hours drive. So dropping off the bike requires a day off from work. There is a performance shop that works on Duc's about a half hour from me, don't know if they do warranty work though. I will be calling them this morning.
Spoke to the dealer, a new chain guide is on order.
Found out that DucNA declined the swingarm because it was not a structural issue. not sure where to go from here...
Asked about the chain shavings... inconclusive. I will be keeping an eye on it.
wow,
just wow.
They should be goodwilling the swingarm themselves. they screwed it up.
They also should be replacing your chain and maybe your sprockets depending on their condition. did your front sprocket damage the case anywhere? how about the inside of your sprocket cover?
What the hell did they do with the old chainguard? throw it away? seriously, I wonder how many other bikes they've done this to?
No damage to the sprocket or the inside casing. The inside sprocket cover had some scratches probably when the screws came out and bounced around a little, but no damage. Not sure about the chain guard though... I didn't worry as long as one is on the way.
Quote from: Raux on July 28, 2011, 01:09:36 PM...They should be goodwilling the swingarm themselves. they screwed it up.....
I totally agree.
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 28, 2011, 12:09:32 PM...Found out that DucNA declined the swingarm because it was not a structural issue. not sure where to go from here...
Nor is it a warranty claim, no reason for DNA to have to replace a swingarm which by all accounts was damaged as the results of work done within the dealership. IMHO its the dealer's liability, not DNA. (I think when
Raux suggested that you get DNA involved, what he was probably getting at is that if the dealer wont replace your swingarm, then maybe you should have a conversation with DNA regarding their dealer's unwillingness to make good what they stuffed up. Have DNA apply a little pressure on your behalf).
Quote from: ManaloEA on July 27, 2011, 06:21:20 PMI agree with your assertion that I started with a perfect bike, and should get one back. But the dealer made a good faith effort to compensate me for the inconvenience... probably not ethical to mention the details here on a public forum.
That you've apparently already accepted some form of compensation as settlement may now make any claim you may have a little more difficult to pursue.... Not sure.... :-\.
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 28, 2011, 08:38:52 PM
That you've apparently already accepted some form of compensation as settlement may now make any claim you may have a little more difficult to pursue.... Not sure.... :-\.
Now that you mention it... I may have backed myself into the corner on this one... [bang]