Hey guys. First post here, but could use some help. I recently purchased a new 2011 M796. It has ~1500 miles on it now, at which point I wanted to do some basic modifications. I purchased an S-C Project full 2-1 Exhaust, K&N Filter, and had sent my ECU out to Moto-Lab for a reflash. Yesterday I get the ECU back, and after re-installation, the bike has serious issues. It will idle, but is dumping fuel out of the exhaust. I mean, literally.. within 30 seconds of idle there is a sizable puddle on the ground, and you can see it gushing out of the slip fittings of my exhaust, as well as right where the exhaust meets the head. I thought it was oil at first , because towards where it comes out the end of the exhaust its black and thicker, but I think it may just be fuel mixing with the carbon in the exhaust? At any attempt to rev, it will pop, backfire, and stall. As well as blow out a good amount of smoke. I have contacted Moto-Lab, he suggested that it could be a TPS needing reset. I know these Siemens ECUs have an autoreset for the TPS every time you start it, but I still cycled the ignition 3 times to give it a full reset, all of which didnt help at all. He said they have never had any issues with any of their tunes. So my question here, is there anything else, that I possibly could have done that would cause these issues? I will post a few pictures, as well as a short video (sorry if video is not viewable, its from my FB account). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Click Here for Video: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=259134814101197# (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=259134814101197#)
(http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101529)
(http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101530)
(http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101531)
(http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101532)
I don't have any 796-specific experience, but the only thing I can think of that would cause that much excess fuel to dump in other than a really bad map/ecu would be an injector stuck wide open or, maybe, super-high fuel pressure. Given that you haven't messed with the injectors or fuel pump/pressure regulator (if the 796 uses one - I dunno), my money is on a screwy map, maybe it got corrupted during the flash or something.
Its also possible some sensor is super-far out of whack, but i'd guess that you'd get some sort of trouble code if the ECU saw a sensor reporting, say WOT throttle all the time or that the air temp ws -100 deg F for example. The easiest test would be to plug in a known-good, stock ECU and see what happens.
Good luck!
Your video link doesn't work. It was truncated, the ... was replacing something.
Thank you for the reply. Swapping out to a factory ECU was my first thought, unfortunately I dont have one being my stock one has been reflashed. Im trying to find a local forum where perhaps someone would be kind enough to lend me one to try out. Literally all I did was unbolt the tank and prop it up, disconnect the battery and remove the ECU. No other lines,sensors, anything have been disconnected. It was down for nearly a week while the computer was out, and when I got it back plugged it in, hooked up the battery, and now this. So, logic says it just about has to be the tune.. but I mean from the amount of fuel flooding out it would have to be pretty damn far off I would think. I just wanted to get some others opinions, because as I said the response I got back was "We've never had an issue with that flash". It makes my heart sink seeing my brand new bike turn into a paperweight.
Sorry, should work now.
Quote from: Sad Panda on July 21, 2011, 07:29:31 AM
Your video link doesn't work. It was truncated, the ... was replacing something.
Did you move the tank at all removing the ecu? I know you have to move it up to get to ecu... Possibly you loosened up a line to the fuel pump, which sits directly above where the fuel appears to be coming from...
Thanks for the reply. Yes the tank was moved slightly, just to access the ECU. However Im very sure no lines were pulled. Also, you can physically see the fuel is pouring out of the exhaust, nowhere else external.
Quote from: DoWorkSon on July 21, 2011, 09:02:54 AM
Did you move the tank at all removing the ecu? I know you have to move it up to get to ecu... Possibly you loosened up a line to the fuel pump, which sits directly above where the fuel appears to be coming from...
The evidence at this point is pointing at their re-flash job, although as things go, it could be something unrelated. I think I'd get back on the horn with Moto-Lab and as politely as possible request a higher level of customer service. If they are smart enough to re-flash ECU's it seems like they might be smart enough to be able to suggest some troubleshooting procedures that would determine if it actually is their ECU work that's causing the problem.
Good luck.
I have contacted Moto-lab, he said they have asked higher up and are awaiting a response. In the meantime, I just wanted to be completely sure it was nothing else that could be causing these issues.
yeah, i would say send it back to them and have them reflash it again.
but... before you do... with a easily fabbed up mount and a lighter... ducati monster 796 flamethrower edition. haha, you can get the batman turbine effect.
It appears that fuel is running down the exhaust, not out of it...
See picture #2, that is looking up from the gound at the "Y" pipe where the 2 exhausts merge into one. Right at that slip fitting fuel is pouring out. Also picture number 3 is exhaust into muffler, also where fuel is coming out. The 3rd picture, where fuel is on the crankcase, is coming straight off the rear head-exhaust connection (apparantly I needed to snug up the bolts a bit more). You can stick your head under the tail and see fuel physically pouring out the exhaust port of the head. Also in the video, you see all of the smoke (Unburnt fuel) shooting out when its attempted to be revved.
Quote from: 2-Skinny on July 21, 2011, 12:13:40 PM
It appears that fuel is running down the exhaust, not out of it...
you know what...
why don't you check the return fuel connector.
Quote from: Raux on July 21, 2011, 12:22:11 PM
you know what...
why don't you check the return fuel connector.
That could do it.
Quote from: howie on July 21, 2011, 12:32:01 PM
That could do it.
I thought that too- may have come off of tank connection...and just "looks" like it is coming out of exhaust....
Quote from: 2-Skinny on July 21, 2011, 12:42:08 PM
and just "looks" like it is coming out of exhaust....
There's stuff coming out of his exhaust. Watch the video - there's what looks like vaporizing gas and the occasional gout of flame - and it's running like poo.
Ok true- i do see that...
ecu or stuck injector
I had an ecu reflashed through moto lab a few months ago, and was told the same thing that there were never issues. Luckily in my case I had bought a used ecu so I still have my oem ecu as spare. I never had fuel run out of the exhaust, but the bike runs awful with it. It surges badly, won't hold a constant rpm/speed, dies at stops, etc. I'm bringing the bike to the dealer Saturday to see if they can hook it up to their systems to see if it's a tps or fuel issue that they can reset. If not, guess I'm out all that money. I'll report back. I have to say that moto lab really seemed to want to help, but it's a rexxer setup they use so any help advice they seek will come from Germany if it comes a all.
Also, my dealer seems to be so used to dealing with reflashed siemans ecu's that they already had a set time of 30 minutes to reset certain parameters and get them running right. This seems to indicate that these are common issues.
I still have faith that mine will work, they reflash god knows how many ecu's and wouldn't keep doing it with such a good reputation if their stuff didn't work. Please don't take this as bashing moto lab by myself at all, like I said I have faith that I just need the dealer to do something minor and it will b good to go.
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 21, 2011, 07:34:28 AM"We've never had an issue with that flash".
Really? I think you should ask them exactly how many M
796's have they reflashed? I think you should ask them to define exactly what flash they used. Your ECU functioned fine before they reflashed it, IMO this is Motolab's issue to resolve.
Seems that
ChrisH has also had issues with MotoLab's reflashing service, so I'm guessing its something they are not taking care of correctly.
This folks, is why I'd much rather own the reflash tool myself.
Maybe you can find a local M796 owner who has fitted the Termi kit with DP ECU.... Maybe they'd allow you to test your bike with their now redundant stock ECU?
Good luck, wish I could be more help.
Quote from: ChrisH on July 21, 2011, 05:09:39 PMI had an ecu reflashed through moto lab a few months ago, and was told the same thing that there were never issues...... I have to say that moto lab really seemed to want to help, but it's a rexxer setup they use so any help advice they seek will come from Germany if it comes a all.
Interesting you say that, coz I just spoke with my contact at Rexxer in Germany and they claim no connection or association with Motolab.... Quoting Rexxer:
"They [Motolab] have own tools and procedures and maps..... we [Rexxer] don't work with them together".
Quote from: ChrisH on July 21, 2011, 05:09:39 PMAlso, my dealer seems to be so used to dealing with reflashed siemans ecu's that they already had a set time of 30 minutes to reset certain parameters and get them running right. This seems to indicate that these are common issues.
Really? What parameters are they able to reset which could correct your Ecu's mapping?
Im sending the ECU back out to Moto-lab today. Im just worried that they really dont seem to know what the problem is, and are going to assume it was only a corruption while downloading the new map. I would hate to get it back and it do the same thing. If anyone here has a known good M796 ECU that I could buy, or even just borrow just to make 100% sure it is flash related, please let me know.
Also, at this point I would just like to have a backup plan. Worst case scenario I get it back, my bike still doesnt run. Plus I will still need a custom tune for my intake/exhaust modifications. What are my options? Is there a programmer or something else available at this time for a M796 I could purchase. Thanks guys
I would have them set it back to stock and make sure it isn't a hardware issue first...
Quote from: 2-Skinny on July 22, 2011, 12:31:18 PM
I would have them set it back to stock and make sure it isn't a hardware issue first...
+1. Reflashed back to stock (and a refund if they cant answer your questions about map specifics).
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 22, 2011, 10:33:54 AM....I will still need a custom tune for my intake/exhaust modifications. What are my options? Is there a programmer or something else available at this time for a M796 I could purchase. Thanks guys
You could buy a Rexxer reflash tool, its no doubt more costly than just having your ECU reflashed, but its way more convenient than sending your ECU back and forth (especially since you have no back-up ECU to use in the interim), it comes with a custom map to your requirements and the ability to swap back to your stock map at will. Plenty info around here.... search for Rexxer.
I'll report back tomorrow after the dealer has looked at it. I just finished stripping as many bolts and pieces down as I could and still safely ride the bike to the shop, I'll swap out the ecu in the parking lot before they open and I have the first slot in the bay so I should be done early.
So this "motolab".....
As I already mentioned, Rexxer havent heard of "motolab".
Are you sure you dont mean mota-lab as in >> http://www.mota-lab.com/ducati-ecu-reflash-p-463.html (http://www.mota-lab.com/ducati-ecu-reflash-p-463.html) << which as far as I can tell are a business associated with Desmoworks, one of our sponsors. And Rexxer lists Desmoworks as one of their US "tuning centers".
If you guys are having trouble getting ECU reflash problems resolved, and the vendor is one of our DMF sponsors.... then I'm sure there are ways to get some satisfaction around here.....
We need to be clear exactly who is it is that did the reflash work... moto.. or mota...
And I could be totally wrong in associating mota-lab with Desmoworks. Maybe Anthony Creek will chime in with some clarification....
[popcorn]
Rxmfn7 I'd change my oil and my filter as precaution. With that much gas pouring out of your bike I'd be worried some mixed with the oil which isn't great for the engine. Just my 2 cents.
Mota-lab and desmoworks I believe are the same... Anthony works for both... As when I contacted desmoworks about the reflash, they directed me to mota-lab... Emails to both companies come from Anthony... I believe he said that they just or were in the process of finishing a move from CA to IN...
Ny experience with them was less than satisfactory... Didn't respond to multiple emails/phone calls, and the "next day" turn around was over a week.. I expressed this to them but they really didn't seem to care and made some excuses.... This was after I paid a crap load for expedited shipping so I could get the ecu back quickly... Didn't matter, still took over a week.
Maybe they flashed your 796 ecu with a 696 nap? I know he said they do batch flashes and ship them all out at once or something along those lines...
Regardless, I would check hardware first, then ecu... Hopefully they give you a nice discount
My 696 was flashed by motalab. I worked with Anthony throughout the process and it has worked flawlessly since.
I'd guess either a bad flash or improper map.
It may not be the flash- at this point could be a broken injector... best to get a stock ecu/flash to test and go from there...
I apologize for any confusion, I didn't realize that there were 2 companies so closely named, and until this point also didn't realize I was misspelling one. I am dealing with mota-lab, and yes Anthony creek is the one I have been in contacts with. I had ordered the reflash through pro-italia.
As to people speculating stuck injectors, and things of that nature..I appreciate the ideas , but please remember the situation. Bike has ~1500 miles on it, runs great. Pull the ecu, gets flashed, now has fuel dumping out of the exhaust on what appears to be both cylinders . So I believe the chances of both injectors being stuck open all of a sudden, at coincidentally the same time the ecu was reflashed, is about zero.
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 23, 2011, 11:03:33 AM
I apologize for any confusion, I didn't realize that there were 2 companies so closely named, and until this point also didn't realize I was misspelling one. I am dealing with mota-lab, and yes Anthony creek is the one I have been in contacts with. I had ordered the reflash through pro-italia.
As to people speculating stuck injectors, and things of that nature..I appreciate the ideas , but please remember the situation. Bike has ~1500 miles on it, runs great. Pull the ecu, gets flashed, now has fuel dumping out of the exhaust on what appears to be both cylinders . So I believe the chances of both injectors being stuck open all of a sudden, at coincidentally the same time the ecu was reflashed, is about zero.
Agree 100%.
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 23, 2011, 11:03:33 AM
I apologize for any confusion, I didn't realize that there were 2 companies so closely named, and until this point also didn't realize I was misspelling one. I am dealing with mota-lab, and yes Anthony creek is the one I have been in contacts with. I had ordered the reflash through pro-italia.
As to people speculating stuck injectors, and things of that nature..I appreciate the ideas , but please remember the situation. Bike has ~1500 miles on it, runs great. Pull the ecu, gets flashed, now has fuel dumping out of the exhaust on what appears to be both cylinders . So I believe the chances of both injectors being stuck open all of a sudden, at coincidentally the same time the ecu was reflashed, is about zero.
Probably right, but statistically speaking an electrical component is more likely to have a catastophic, premature failure when new. Things "wearing out" or whatever over time is another issue, but injectors would work less efficiently/optimally not just stick wide open then...
Took my bike to the local Ducati master tech today and he reset the fuel parameters and analyzed the bike on the dda, apparently they have some new fancy unit that very few people have yet that he was raving aout. After he reset the fuel parameters the bike ran dramatically better, he had me ride at low throttle / low speed for about 45 minutes and then he hooked it up again and he said all was well.
I'm getting intermittent CEL that will go away within about 30 seconds of coming on, I suspect that this has something to do with the o2 sensors being removed in the flash. The bike runs ok. I haven't put in the MWR air filter yet which the flash was designed for in theory. The bike pops a lot but it sounds like rich popping as opposed to the lean popping from the stock ecu. The surging is gone,but it does not seem to like holding low throttle low speed low rpm positions, example- 25mph in 2nd gear is impossible.
I'll put some more miles and the air filter in and see what happens. I will say that next time, I'm just going to buy the termi kit and be done with it. This was a major pita.
Quote from: ChrisH on July 23, 2011, 01:17:55 PM
Took my bike to the local Ducati master tech today and he reset the fuel parameters and analyzed the bike on the dda, apparently they have some new fancy unit that very few people have yet that he was raving aout. After he reset the fuel parameters the bike ran dramatically better, he had me ride at low throttle / low speed for about 45 minutes and then he hooked it up again and he said all was well.
I'm getting intermittent CEL that will go away within about 30 seconds of coming on, I suspect that this has something to do with the o2 sensors being removed in the flash. The bike runs ok. I haven't put in the MWR air filter yet which the flash was designed for in theory. The bike pops a lot but it sounds like rich popping as opposed to the lean popping from the stock ecu. The surging is gone,but it does not seem to like holding low throttle low speed low rpm positions, example- 25mph in 2nd gear is impossible.
I'll put some more miles and the air filter in and see what happens. I will say that next time, I'm just going to buy the termi kit and be done with it. This was a major pita.
probably running rich cause you are starving it for air by running a stock filter?
Quote from: ChrisH on July 23, 2011, 01:17:55 PM
Took my bike to the local Ducati master tech today and he reset the fuel parameters and analyzed the bike on the dda, apparently they have some new fancy unit that very few people have yet that he was raving aout. After he reset the fuel parameters the bike ran dramatically better, he had me ride at low throttle / low speed for about 45 minutes and then he hooked it up again and he said all was well.
I'm getting intermittent CEL that will go away within about 30 seconds of coming on, I suspect that this has something to do with the o2 sensors being removed in the flash. The bike runs ok. I haven't put in the MWR air filter yet which the flash was designed for in theory. The bike pops a lot but it sounds like rich popping as opposed to the lean popping from the stock ecu. The surging is gone,but it does not seem to like holding low throttle low speed low rpm positions, example- 25mph in 2nd gear is impossible.
I'll put some more miles and the air filter in and see what happens. I will say that next time, I'm just going to buy the termi kit and be done with it. This was a major pita.
Are you certain that eliminating the O2 sensors w/o additional fuel control (PCV) is what is causing the issues...?
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 23, 2011, 11:03:33 AM
I apologize for any confusion, I didn't realize that there were 2 companies so closely named, and until this point also didn't realize I was misspelling one. I am dealing with mota-lab, and yes Anthony creek is the one I have been in contacts with. I had ordered the reflash through pro-italia.
As to people speculating stuck injectors, and things of that nature..I appreciate the ideas , but please remember the situation. Bike has ~1500 miles on it, runs great. Pull the ecu, gets flashed, now has fuel dumping out of the exhaust on what appears to be both cylinders . So I believe the chances of both injectors being stuck open all of a sudden, at coincidentally the same time the ecu was reflashed, is about zero.
I agree that the probability of both injectors suddenly sticking open on their own is slight. It "sounds" like both injectors are being held open by the ECU but then from what little I know about the inner ECU workings this doesn't sound very likely or even possible either. This is very interesting and if it were my bike "interesting" is not the right term at all.
Are you close enough to Glendale or Pasadena or wherever Pro-Italia is to bring your bike to them? Since you bought the reflash through them and they presumably profited on the deal it seems to me that they are your main contact and responsible party. Pro-Italia should have a spare ECU or otherwise be able to troubleshoot the problem. But if they're just going to punt and leave it to Mota-labs then you're probably better off dealing directly with Mota-labs yourself to avoid miscommunications.
Again, good luck.
Quote from: Raux on July 23, 2011, 01:35:06 PM
probably running rich cause you are starving it for air by running a stock filter?
I think that is probably the case. As soon as it cools down a bit tonight I'll put the new filter in.
Quote from: 2-Skinny on July 23, 2011, 01:40:08 PM
Are you certain that eliminating the O2 sensors w/o additional fuel control (PCV) is what is causing the issues...?
I'm not sure I follow?
The map was supposed to be richened up to compensate for no o2's down low. I chatted with them quite a bit before going this route. Removing the o2 sensors from the flash seemed very normal for them, and it will allow me to use an auto tune setup later when I start doing more mods. The cel I am getting has to be from the o2 circuit somewhere because the bike runs ok and it oes away pretty fast, and the master tech said that the o2 circuit while not throwing cels when he looked at it, the dda setup did flag the o2 circuits as being dropped out.
Pro-Italia is in CA, I live in PA, so taking it to them is not an option ;) I have contacted them, twice now via email, and have yet to have a response. I will be calling Monday 1st thing. I have been in direct contact with Mota-lab.
Quote from: Langanobob on July 23, 2011, 02:21:56 PM
I agree that the probability of both injectors suddenly sticking open on their own is slight. It "sounds" like both injectors are being held open by the ECU but then from what little I know about the inner ECU workings this doesn't sound very likely or even possible either. This is very interesting and if it were my bike "interesting" is not the right term at all.
Are you close enough to Glendale or Pasadena or wherever Pro-Italia is to bring your bike to them? Since you bought the reflash through them and they presumably profited on the deal it seems to me that they are your main contact and responsible party. Pro-Italia should have a spare ECU or otherwise be able to troubleshoot the problem. But if they're just going to punt and leave it to Mota-labs then you're probably better off dealing directly with Mota-labs yourself to avoid miscommunications.
Again, good luck.
Quote from: ChrisH on July 23, 2011, 03:03:07 PM
I think that is probably the case. As soon as it cools down a bit tonight I'll put the new filter in.
I'm not sure I follow?
The map was supposed to be richened up to compensate for no o2's down low. I chatted with them quite a bit before going this route. Removing the o2 sensors from the flash seemed very normal for them, and it will allow me to use an auto tune setup later when I start doing more mods. The cel I am getting has to be from the o2 circuit somewhere because the bike runs ok and it oes away pretty fast, and the master tech said that the o2 circuit while not throwing cels when he looked at it, the dda setup did flag the o2 circuits as being dropped out.
Well I don't know why the CEL would be throwing a λ code if it is eliminated completeley- it should be in open loop always with the O2s eliminated... If they flashed it with a richened mixture then the effects you are experiencing are from the bike being too rich because of the lack of additional air flow + the fact that the mixture is not being adjusted throughout the power band- especially in the troublesome < 3500 rpm range you are describing... Adding the filter could smooth that out- just think you won't be completely satisfied without additional fuel management...
If nothing else, you have put my internal dilhema to rest. I will be going with the termi slipon w/ecu kit instead of another exhaust and reflash. So I cant tell you exactly when, but I may soon have a stock ecu available for troubleshooting.
Quote from: freeclimbmtb on July 23, 2011, 04:01:39 PM
If nothing else, you have put my internal dilhema to rest. I will be going with the termi slipon w/ecu kit instead of another exhaust and reflash. So I cant tell you exactly when, but I may soon have a stock ecu available for troubleshooting.
You know that w/o additional air flow ECU changes aren't required right? Slip ons by themselves will be ok for the bike... That Termi+ecu kit is $$$...
Quote from: 2-Skinny on July 23, 2011, 04:05:12 PM
You know that w/o additional air flow ECU changes aren't required right? Slip ons by themselves will be ok for the bike... That Termi+ecu kit is $$$...
Option 1) $1500 for the termi kit
Option 2) $9xx for boomtubes, $4xx for power commander (or reflash), $60 for air filter
So with esentially the same price, I would just assume get parts signed by the factory.
EDIT:sorry for an apparent threadjack. not intentional...
This customer contacted us right away after install and we've been working with him since shortly after that. We've used that exact map 11 times without issue. I'm assuming something went wrong with the flash process, but nothing was out of the ordinary during the flash process and I haven't received the ECU back so it is all speculation at this point (by all of us... lots in this thread for some reason).
To clear up some of the confusion I'm reading in this thread:
desmoworks LLC owns mota-lab and I own desmoworks LLC. I work with Daniele Moto/Rexxer directly. This is one of their maps and they are helping resolve the issue as quickly as possible. They also said they have never had an issue with this map and they are quite concerned with the situation after seeing the video.
There have been a couple of other issues with Siemens ECU, but besides the early 696 map issues it has been customer install/setup all but one other time... which was a different map and was easily resolved. The problem is usually not resetting the TPS correctly. Once done the bikes run properly.
If anyone has one of the 696 maps that have issues with the CEL just send it back... I'm happy to flash the updated mapping that cures this issue free of charge.
Anthony Creek
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 23, 2011, 09:57:55 PM
Apparently not by mota-lab yet though [roll].
Not good enough.
I invite mota-lab, Desmoworks, Pro Italia and/or Anthony Creek to contradict me.
[popcorn]
Have you got some bone to pick or something?
Quote from: desmoworks on July 23, 2011, 10:54:57 PMWe've used that exact map 11 times without issue.
For M
seven96?
Quote from: desmoworks on July 23, 2011, 10:55:53 PM
Have you got some bone to pick or something?
No bone at all :). I've spent
plenty of money @ Desmoworks over the years and always received first rate products and customer support.
But given that Rexxer resolved the O2 CEL issues way back in January, I'm just wondering why mota-lab would seem to be flashing Siemens ECUs (
ChrisH) with mapping which
still doesnt have this known "lambda slow response" error dealt with? And that if this is the case... then IMO.... that's not good enough.
Quote from: desmoworks on July 23, 2011, 10:54:57 PMIf anyone has one of the 696 maps that have issues with the CEL just send it back... I'm happy to flash the updated mapping that cures this issue free of charge.
The issue wasn't limited to M696, but acknowledging the problem and taking steps to resolve it is all that can be reasonably expected. Thanks for clearing up some of the issues raised [thumbsup].
Just to clear some things up, I contacted pro-italia about my issue being they are the ones that I placed the order through. This is who I was referring to when i said that I had contacted twice with no response. I then decided to contact motalab directly (Anthony creek), to which he has always responded to my emails nearly immediately. I have no issues with the customer service from motalab, especially being that I did not place the order directly through them.
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 24, 2011, 03:51:21 AM
:-\.
The customer contacted me as mota-lab. No need to have the same conversation as Pro Italia and mota-lab. we are handling it. No reason to have multiple people involved as it won't solve the problem any quicker.
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 24, 2011, 03:51:21 AM
For Mseven96?
I don't know who this is, what map he has, etc... he can email me info@mota-lab.com if there is an issue though and we'll look into it and sort it.
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 24, 2011, 03:51:21 AM
No bone at all :). I've spent plenty of money @ Desmoworks over the years and always received first rate products and customer support.
Interesting, because your posts are very aggressive and I see no reason for it. I don't even know what you have to do with this guys flash? Nothing as far as I can tell. As far as I can see you aren't helping the situation. You're probably freaking him out telling him that mota-lab isn't a Rexxer supported dealer, etc... which is 100% incorrect.
If there was question of something like that - or anything else in this thread all you had to do was ask for the information rather than just post false guesses. You PM'd me about this thread, which I hadn't seen, and I responded very quickly. Pretty simple...
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 24, 2011, 03:51:21 AM
But given that Rexxer resolved the O2 CEL issues way back in January, I'm just wondering why mota-lab would seem to be flashing Siemens ECUs (ChrisH) with mapping which still doesnt have this known "lambda slow response" error dealt with? And that if this is the case... then IMO.... that's not good enough.
The issue wasn't limited to M696, but acknowledging the problem and taking steps to resolve it is all that can be reasonably expected. Thanks for clearing up some of the issues raised [thumbsup].
I have no idea who it is that posted that. I don't know what map was used, I don't know when it was flashed. I can't speculate on the situation and I'm not a mind reader. If there is an issue it needs to be brought to my attention through a proper channel. Complaining on a forum isn't how to get things fixed. Emailing me directly is. info@mota-lab.com if there is an issue. As I said I'm happy to flash FOC to the updated map if that is the issue. Again, pretty simple and doesn't require all the drama.
Anthony, I was not aware that you were a member/sponser or whatever of this forum, but thank you for responding on here. I did not start the thread with the intention of badmouthing you/mota-lab/pro-italia, or anyone. I just want the issue resolved and to be able to ride my motorcycle.
Quote from: desmoworks on July 24, 2011, 08:37:06 AM
idea who it is that posted that. I don't know what map was used, I don't know when it was flashed. I can't speculate on the situation and I'm not a mind reader. If there is an issue it needs to be brought to my attention through a proper channel. Complaining on a forum isn't how to get things fixed. Emailing me directly is. info@mota-lab.com if there is an issue. As I said I'm happy to flash FOC to the updated map if that is the issue. Again, pretty simple and doesn't require all the drama.
My ecu was actually flashed twice recently by y'all. Like i said earlier, once the dealer reset the fuel parameters the bike seems to run fine except for the intermittent cel, and I assume it will run better once I get the filter in there. I'm really not trying to complain or give you guys a bad name. My experience wasn't the greatest, but yourself & pro-italia seemed generally interested in helping. I just wanted to share notes, and show that getting the dealers dda involved may be what is needed to really make the reflashes work successfully. When i told my dealer that moto lab reflashed the ecu they seemed to be well aware of you guys and believe that y'all did/do great work for whatever thats worth.
All that said, if there is an updated map that fixes the cel issue i might be willing to try another reflash if it's a known issue & we know it will work, I just don't want to really spend another $50 at the dealer to have them reset stuff again if i don't have to.
Quote from: ChrisH on July 24, 2011, 11:30:22 AM
My ecu was actually flashed twice recently by y'all. Like i said earlier, once the dealer reset the fuel parameters the bike seems to run fine except for the intermittent cel, and I assume it will run better once I get the filter in there. I'm really not trying to complain or give you guys a bad name. My experience wasn't the greatest, but yourself & pro-italia seemed generally interested in helping. I just wanted to share notes, and show that getting the dealers dda involved may be what is needed to really make the reflashes work successfully. When i told my dealer that moto lab reflashed the ecu they seemed to be well aware of you guys and believe that y'all did/do great work for whatever thats worth.
All that said, if there is an updated map that fixes the cel issue i might be willing to try another reflash if it's a known issue & we know it will work, I just don't want to really spend another $50 at the dealer to have them reset stuff again if i don't have to.
There is nothing to setup on a Siemens ECU. It doesn't have trim controls like the Marelli. You have to have the TPS reset or the bike will run like garbage 9 times out of 10. Is that what you had them do, reset the TPS? That is generally the reason a map is reported to not work correctly, because the TPS isn't set correctly. Once the TPS is set it works properly.
Send me an email with your details to info@mota-lab.com so I can see what map you have installed. We've not had issue with the CEL in months so it is for sure a strange issue to have if you were flashed recently.
Quote from: desmoworks on July 24, 2011, 08:37:06 AMI don't even know what you have to do with this guys flash? Nothing as far as I can tell. As far as I can see you aren't helping the situation.
This is a public forum :).
The OP began this thread looking for reasons why his motorcycle no longer functions as it ought - directly after having his ECU reflashed by mota-lab. My input is in response to that. I can see that I may not be helping
your interests, but my insight into Rexxer and where they are at with mapping is provided to assist the OP - if that causes you some embarrassment, then thats an unfortunate an completely unintended side-effect.
Quote from: desmoworks on July 24, 2011, 08:37:06 AMYou're probably freaking him out telling him that mota-lab isn't a Rexxer supported dealer, etc... which is 100% incorrect.
If you actually read what I said..... [roll]
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 23, 2011, 03:43:28 AM
So this "motolab"..... As I already mentioned, Rexxer havent heard of "motolab". Are you sure you dont mean mota-lab as in >> http://www.mota-lab.com/ducati-ecu-reflash-p-463.html (http://www.mota-lab.com/ducati-ecu-reflash-p-463.html) << which as far as I can tell are a business associated with Desmoworks..... And Rexxer lists Desmoworks as one of their US "tuning centers".
...."
Rexxer lists Desmoworks as one of their US tuning centers" << I said that Desmoworks [and so by association Mota-lab]
is a Rexxer supported dealer did I not??
Quote from: desmoworks on July 24, 2011, 08:37:06 AMIf there was question of something like that - or anything else in this thread all you had to do was ask for the information rather than just post false guesses. You PM'd me about this thread, which I hadn't seen, and I responded very quickly. Pretty simple...
What false guesses exactly?
I said that I believed Anthony Creek, Desmoworks and mota-lab are all associated and that Desmoworks
is listed by Rexxer as a US tuning center. Anything false there??
I PMed you coz i didnt want to be "talking behind your back", I wanted to give you the opportunity to clear up some of the mot
o-lab vs mot
a-lab confusion. To give you the opportunity to respond to my assertions that the map as provided to
ChrisH appears to exhibit a known fault long since resolved by Rexxer, but not
apparently yet resloved by mot
a-lab.
Quote from: desmoworks on July 24, 2011, 08:37:06 AM.....your posts are very aggressive and I see no reason for it....
I dispute that my posts here have in anyway been aggressive. I merely challenge why it is that there seems to be some problematic mapping still getting around which appear to be not up to date. A fair enough question to ask of an
authorised Rexxer tuning centre IMO.
Aggression? Falsehoods? I
respectfully beg to differ.
I have spoken to Chris from Rexxer in person about some of the issues on the forum, in fact ungeheuer and I were instrumental in bring him to the forum to assist members here. Ungeheuer was one of the early adopters AND in fact a beta-type tester for a lot of the updates they were working on to remove some of the issues they had. So his input into this problem or any others dealing with Rexxer are understandable and invalueable in my opinion.
Desmoworks-
Has Desmoworks refreshed the maps of all it's previous customers with the new map? would you charge for such a service?
what version are you currently using? I am surprised by your post saying you don't know what map a customer has. I would assume you have records of things so when updates that are critical come down from Rexxer you can reach out to your customers. If you are going to provide the Rexxer service via your Motalabs brand, maybe you should ask Rexxer to update their site to avoid any future confusion.
ungeheuer-
you and I tend to try to help out a lot with people and maybe sometimes it being public can hurt dealers/suppliers. but dealers should realize we are only trying to help the community as a whole, including those dealers. only a few times have i said negative things, and in this respect i don't think you're being negative. just proactive with possible answers for a problem.
as far as the TPS being a problem in this situation? it would basically have to be saying the throttle is wide open for it to be dumping so much fuel into the motor. is it possible for it to be that out of whack?
TPS reset will not resolve either of the technical issues in discussion here.
TPS reset will not reslove ChrisH's CEL issue (and neither will a visit to his Ducati dealership). IMO, the most likely cause of that CEL is the ECU flagging "lambda slow response" errors P0133 and P0153 respectively. The bike will run fine, but you'll get that CEL whenever you roll off the throttle from above 4,500rpm.
And TPS reset certainly will not reslove this...
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=259134814101197# (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=259134814101197#)
In both cases, IMO the issues are as a result of problems with the ECU flash/mapping.
In ChrisH's case the issue is likely IMO to be due to an early mapping shortcoming.
In the case of Rxmfn7 the issue is clearly more serious, but IMO its an ECU issue most likely related to a recent reflash.
In both cases, IMO the issues can only be resloved by having the ECUs reflashed with the latest appropriate mapping.
Good luck in getting your issues resolved [thumbsup].
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 25, 2011, 12:24:38 AM
TPS reset will not resolve either of the technical issues in discussion here.
TPS reset will not reslove ChrisH's CEL issue (and neither will a visit to his Ducati dealership). IMO, the most likely cause of that CEL is the ECU flagging "lambda slow response" errors P0133 and P0153 respectively. The bike will run fine, but you'll get that CEL whenever you roll off the throttle from above 4,500rpm.
Thats the code the dealership brought up, and that is exactly the condition that causes the CEL to come on
Quote from: ChrisH on July 25, 2011, 02:28:41 PM
Thats the code the dealership brought up, and that is exactly the condition that causes the CEL to come on
Ungeheuer and I both got these CELs with the early Rexxer maps. Chris from Rexxer eventually sorted the things out. I'm surprised that after this much time you got a map with these errors, it's been about a year since issue was resolved. I hope a new flash will solve you problems.
Quote from: ChrisH on July 25, 2011, 02:28:41 PM
Thats the code the dealership brought up, and that is exactly the condition that causes the CEL to come on
Due to members here (myself included) inputting feedback directly to Rexxer in Germany, mapping was revised by Rexxer quite some long time back specifically to resolve that issue.
If you want that fixed you're gonna need to have your ECU reflashed with more up to date mapping.
Glad I could help [thumbsup].
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 25, 2011, 07:45:17 PM
Due to members here (myself included) inputting feedback directly to Rexxer in Germany, mapping was revised by Rexxer quite some long time back specifically to resolve that issue.
If you want that fixed you're gonna need to have your ECU reflashed with more up to date mapping.
Glad I could help [thumbsup].
hehe guess you did help ;)
Quote from: Raux on July 25, 2011, 09:59:09 PM
hehe guess you did help ;)
....after all ;D.
....and despite my aggressive false guesses too [laugh] [laugh].
I appreciate everyone's attempts to help, but I would really not like this to turn into an argument, ..and please lets not piss off the only ones that can help get these maps straightened out..
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 25, 2011, 11:47:34 PM
I appreciate everyone's attempts to help, but I would really not like this to turn into an argument, ..and please lets not piss off the only ones that can help get these maps straightened out..
No argument from me. I think there have been some misunderstandings, some attempts to suggest some of us should keep our informed opinions to ourselves, but no argument about your probable ECU problem :).
I think we're all pretty much agreed that as job #1 your ECU needs to have its reflash re-done.
And regardless of anything said here, if (as suspected) the issue does indeed turn out to be a problem with your ECU flash, I'm confident your chosen authorised Rexxer vendor is entirely professional enough to properly correct it for you.
Be sure to report back to let us know how it all goes [thumbsup].
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 26, 2011, 05:19:14 AM
No argument from me. I think there have been some misunderstandings, some attempts to suggest some of us should keep our informed opinions to ourselves, but no argument about your probable ECU problem :).
I think we're all pretty much agreed that as job #1 your ECU needs to have its reflash re-done.
And regardless of anything said here, if (as suspected) the issue does indeed turn out to be a problem with your ECU flash, I'm confident your chosen authorised Rexxer vendor is entirely professional enough to properly correct it for you.
Be sure to report back to let us know how it all goes [thumbsup].
how come there is no ass-kissing smiley?
[popcorn]
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 25, 2011, 11:47:34 PM
I appreciate everyone's attempts to help, but I would really not like this to turn into an argument, ..and please lets not piss off the only ones that can help get these maps straightened out..
+1. And, we don't want to piss you off either. This is generally a good group here, wouldn't want you as a new member to get the wrong impression and not come back.
The ECU had arrived back to Mota-lab as of yesterday morning. Anthony said he had forwarded my information to rexxer, so for now I am waiting to here what they have to say.
I should have the ECU back tomorrow. According to Anthony at Mota-lab, Rexxer didnt find anything wrong with the mapping of my ECU. So... try again tomorrow I guess :-\
Aaaargh. I was afraid of that. Do you know if they actually installed your ECU on a bike at their shop to see if it worked OK?
And still no luck getting your hands on a stock non-reflashed ECU to see if your bike runs OK with it?
I wonder if it's an electrical or electronic hardware issue? I'm assuming there is a chip in the ECU that goes to ground for some number of milliseconds when the injectors are supposed to open. Maybe it's shorted permanently to ground? There should be a relatively simple way to check this, maybe someone with some electronic background/ECU troubleshooting experience can step up to the plate.
Bob
I didn't ask, buy I would assume that the ecu was never actually tried on another bike. I wouldn't think they would just have bikes sitting around the shop to try out. But maybe Anthony can chime in. I have an electronics background and I'm sure if I would sit down with schematics I could trace down a possible cause.. But as far as I'm concerned I shouldn't have to, nor do I want to do that. If I'm still having issues tomorrow, the bike is going to the dealer.
I dont wish to offend or piss any sensitive souls off here, but when I earlier asked this:
Quote from: ungeheuer on July 24, 2011, 03:51:21 AM
For Mseven96?
....in response to this:
Quote from: desmoworks on July 23, 2011, 10:54:57 PMWe've used that exact map 11 times without issue.
What I was attempting to discover was how many of the previously faultless 11 instances of applying that flash to a Siemens ECU were on a M
796 ECU?
And the reason I asked was to rule out this: Could it be possible that your ECU has perfectly faultless M696 or M1100 flash, one which checks out and tests fine, but is for a machine
other than M796?Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 28, 2011, 09:48:11 AMI should have the ECU back tomorrow. According to Anthony at Mota-lab, Rexxer didnt find anything wrong with the mapping of my ECU. So... try again tomorrow I guess :-\
Having had the ECU examined and tested and having found no issues with the reflashed Rexxer performance mapping, if when you receive the ECU back your problems continue, I would now want the ECU returned to its stock map.
Again, I wish you luck with it [thumbsup]
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 28, 2011, 02:56:25 PM
<snip>... I have an electronics background and I'm sure if I would sit down with schematics I could trace down a possible cause.. But as far as I'm concerned I shouldn't have to, nor do I want to do that. If I'm still having issues tomorrow, the bike is going to the dealer.
Here is my 2 cents worth and I agree that you shouldn't have to troubleshoot this problem yourself, but it's far from a perfect world and it always helps to be an educated buyer when dealing with a dealership. Anything you can do to better understand the possible problem when taking it to the dealer is likely to save you both time and money and possibly prevent another series of frustrations.
I'm not disagreeing with you whatsoever, but sometimes you need to weigh your options of what the hassle and headache is worth to you. I have highly modified cars that Ive done the majority of work myself. Stripped down to the last nut and bolt, engine swap, etc. I enjoy doing that. When it comes to motorcycles, its just relaxation for me and major maintenance or repairs is not something I want to do. Thats why I purchased a brand new bike, and all I wanted to do to it was make it sound and look like I wanted. The bit of money I would have to pay to just have it fixed and not have to think about it anymore is more than worth it to me.
But back on subject, ECU will be here shortly, and I will update how it goes.
Makes perfect sense to me. Hope today brings good news.
Just got the ECU in, initial results are good! I just plugged it in and started it up, no more fuel out of the exhaust, it let me rev it as well as hold a steady RPM with no backfiring or stalling. Give me about an hour to get the rest of the bike back together and try and ride it, Ill post final results shortly!
Well, not sure what they did or didnt do, but so far all seems well. It just started raining pretty good here, but I took her out for about 15min, and didnt notice any issues. Bike seems to run good, no CELs, and no issues I noticed. WIth the louder exhaust its made the "chugging" below 4k rpm much more evident, as you can not only feel it, but hear it now.. but in just the short ride it actually doesnt even seem as bad as stock. I caught myself at like 3krpm a few times and running ok, where previously it would be bucking. So, just wanted to update everyone. Maybe just a corruption in the 1st flash? Seems odd, but whatever. Thanks again to Anthony at Mota-lab for the excellent customer service and communication through this whole ordeal.
Few quick pics I snapped on my test-ride before the rain hit. Last one beside my friends new HD Rocker-C that Im Bike-sitting.
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/284055_263689483645730_100000140415415_1202131_3439627_n.jpg)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/284055_263689493645729_100000140415415_1202132_1544577_n.jpg)
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/284055_263689496979062_100000140415415_1202133_3480727_n.jpg)
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 29, 2011, 03:59:43 PM...Maybe just a corruption in the 1st flash?....
So they reflashed it a second time prior to sending it back to you?
First time it ran like shit, second time it works fine.
Then yup, I'd say something went wrong in the first reflash, just as we thought.
Glad you got it sorted [thumbsup].
Quote from: Rxmfn7 on July 29, 2011, 04:05:03 PM
Few quick pics I snapped on my test-ride before the rain hit. Last one beside my friends new HD Rocker-C that Im Bike-sitting.
Good looking bike, and it sounds like a case of all's well that ends well.
Bob
As mentioned..looks good..I'd like to see what it would look like with the exhaust on the left.