Ducati Monster Forum

Pretty cool concept.

VW Factory - Germany (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5WGLWNllA&feature=player_embedded#)

Very Impressive!  :o

I love how the portable workstations are inductively powered thru the maple floor.   

Neato. [thumbsup]

Yeesh!  I really miss living over there.

Too bad the Phaeton was a commercial failure, at least in the states.  The last year they were sold (2007-8?) they only sold 400 of them.  They are talking about bringing them back, but at a starting price of about $60,000 I think most people are going to pass.  It's a VW. 

Yea well...  Americans never have been known as terribly smart.

That must explain why we're the biggest market for Ducatis?  ???

No, the problem with the Phaeton is VW.  They are an economy car brand here.  The same reason that Mercedes won't bring the A class cars to the US - they are a luxury brand here.  You can't sell a Mercedes economy car here and you can't sell a VW luxury car here.  Just won't do. 

The 2003 Phaeton was priced starting at $70,000 and went up to $100,000.  Tell me there's not somethign you'd want more for your money than a VW for $100k?

Or the opposite.  Paying 90k for a VW is dumb IMO.

Why don't they show the sh!t hole mexican plants that the main stream North American VW's are made?

mitt

I suppose they could simply invent new brands, as the Japanese have done for their more upscale offerings.

Let me refer you to my previous comment about Americans not being known for their intellect.  

I'm not buying a car as a status symbol.  If it has the features I want, and the price is good, I'm buying.  Even at those prices, the original Phaeton was a deal compared to equivalent Mercs and BMWs.

The high end VWs have always been made in Germany, mostly by hand.  They went to the North American plants when the American market demanded a German Camry.  So yes, I stand by my statement of Americans being a bit dim.



One word, Audi.

The problem was that VW couldn't even get people to look at the cars - -why?  because of the reputation of all the other cars with the VW label.  It's not an intellect thing, it's just how VW has marketed itself and the fact that people don't spend a lot of time searching.  VW just tossed this very expensive car on the market without preparing people for it.  They didn't do their homework. 

I mean, how many people looking for an economy car head to the Mercedes dealership?  None.  why?  Because they don't make economy cars (in the USA).  Same with VW.  Some guy has 100k to blow on a car, he isn't think "mmmm.. a VW would be nice..."..

Also, the Phaeton had plenty of QA issues. It was pretty well panned in the reviews.  Lots of electrical problems.  It just had an uphill battle.

My european friends don't seem any smarter when buying a car, they do the same thing Americans do:  buy what everyone else is buying.  That's why you see a shit-ton of Seats and Fiat Puntos and VW Lupos all over Europe.

Well, Seat is basically a VW with a different, slightly down-graded badge.

And I'll give it to you that VW didn't do their homework on the marketing front with this car.  But then again, when have they ever done a decent job at marketing?  They basically did the same with the R32, with the second gen car flopping. 

My main point is that too many people here immediately, and wrongly, assumed that a particular brand was incapable of making an upscale product.  And yes, the same can be said for the A class, and the majority of the 1 series.

It's just not unreasonable for people to assume that.  The QA on VWs in the states isn't the best for a lot of reasons.  My Golf was made in Brazil and it's not bad, the engine was made in Germany though I think all of the diesels are. 

Point is, people buy cars partly based on the history and partly on the image.

My wife's new Kia Sorento was a gamble.  But they did their homework for their new cars (and hired the design guy from Audi...).  (and so did we, we test drove 5 different vehicles in the same segment)... over a year later and we'd buy it again, and it's still the cheapest CUV for the segment.  But it was a huge gamble given Kia's record, but a cheap gamble.  Spending $100k on a car is a huge gamble. 

Not to the people who are likely willing to drop that kind of money on a car.  Well, to the people who can actually afford to drop that kind of money on a car I mean.

Exactly.  Go back to what I said about Europeans;  They buy what everyone else is buying.  If you're going to drop that much coin on a car, you're going to look and see what your neighbor is buying-- partly because you want to keep up and partly because you want to know what's out there.  VW sold only 3700 Phaetons in the USA over 5 years.  Not too many neighbors have them, no buzz nothing. 

Chances are if you're going to fart out 100k for a car, you're going to head to the AMG dealer or the BMW or the Audi. 

Which is really how VW should do things.. Audi should be their luxury line and maintain VW as the middle of the road line and Seat/Škoda as the shit line.

that's not quite the same, though... if audi was invented for the US lux market and contained nothing but badge engineering, then maybe... hell, look at chevy/GMC...

parts bin sharing aside, audi is it's own thing.


what I thought was silly about the phaeton was that it was a competitor to the A8...

I was about to say, you forgot Skoda at first.

Meh.

Beetle R....  [drool]

Škoda is what happened when VW make the beast with two backsed a Saab

(http://az30650.vo.msecnd.net/imgs/e25f9e3f-9d22-4b4a-9bcb-07485b0bb0cb/01.jpg)

Not really.  They dictate certain things to VW, especially here in the states.  Look at power ratings of the sporty VW models in Europe, and then compare them to the state-side model.  All of the US spec cars are down, some by as much as ten percent.  That's not because the engine is de-tuned, but because Audi does not want the VW to seem like it is encroaching on their (Audi's) turf.

Also, the two companies devised their market strategy together several years back, with Audi trying to target BMW and VW (Phaeton) going after Merc.

what I meant was they they are separate companies, and not up-branded items for the US market (like how the japanese do it).  VW didn't say, "hey, they won't buy our $30,000+ VWs, so let's call them something else."

they may try to bring it back ...

We shall see.  Jacoby is gone now though, so hopefully there will be a bit more "improvement" in VW of NA. 

Top Gear - Skoda Yeti road test - BBC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kEJ-pHkWA#)

The Phaeton is available in a sizable chunk of the rest of the world.  It is essentially a steel bodied A8 and even has family ties with some Bentleys.  Failure in the US market does not equal failure.

In Europe, VW is like Ford is here.  They make a huge range of cars and people know them as a full-range brand rather than as an economy brand.  Same with Mercedes, the A class is only £16,000 including VAT in England.  Figure about $18,000 if they sold it in the US (based on price comparisons with VW and Toyota models sold in the US and UK).

WHen Americans think VW they think "cheap, mostly reliable."  Not "shares a frame with a Bentley" and certainly not the price!

Which reinforces my original sentiment.   Collectively, we haz teh dumbz... 

 ;D

I'd say it reinforces my point that VW has sold themselves as an economy car company in the US.

I thought my boss's W12 Phaeton was badass a few years back
and my Golf and my wife's Audi were built on the correct side of the Atlantic so I'm not dumb.  [thumbsup]

And further reinforced with the new US version Jetta

Exactly.  It's a nice car, but it's not a C class.  The TDI version is amazing, the new CRD engine is doing some great things despite some problems with the pumps.  I wish VW could have continued with the PD engines, but due to CARB (and now we find out, outright fraud by the CARB scientists) diesel emissions had to be tighter than ever. 

VW in the USA is an economy car company.  If they want to sell Phaetons here, they need to put out a mid-level car that is in the 40-50k range that is a great car and let it sink in for about 5 years that they make more than economy cars.  Then put the 70-100k Phaeton on the market.

I think you are wrong there.  The new Hyundai premium cars are doing well in sales and in reviews.  Americans can buy wisely if the brand does their homework.

mitt

Yep, perfect example of a brand turning its marque around.  They spent years making low end cars and now they are coming up.  They also have a luxury model which is moderately priced and apparently are coming out with a high end (~65k range) model in the next 3-4 years.

the Equus is already here
they aim at the 90k cars with an fall short as a direct comparison but for 65 is a screaming deal
They have a different emblem on the front of the car too. I'm thinking they're going to split those cars off onto their own marque.