Ducati Monster Forum

This morning I was leaving my gf's house with her, to follow her car to a breakfast place. Was doing a slow speed u-turn and I'm not so sure exactly what happened, but I think I slipped the clutch too far, as the bike was chugging in 1st gear, I'm not sure exactly but the bike lost power and fell over on top of me to the left. Was in extreme pain and I discovered at the ER that I have multiple spiral fractures in my left tibia. The bike is fine and you can't even tell it was dropped as all of the weight seemed to land on my leg. I've practiced these slow speed turns before and have done the same sorta turn at this same spot. I looked through the turn etc. I'm assuming I simply didn't give enough speed. Leg hurts like hell but I'll be alright. Just a couple months of crutches it seems like and the doctor thinks it will heal alright. Not discouraged at all. But I think I'm a little paranoid now of slow speed u turns and it will be difficult for me to practice that after I heal. I wasnt showboating or anything else. Just made a critical error. :/ sucks

I have done close to the same thing a couple times without the pain.  The pain is bad enough but glad to hear your bike is OK, my clutch is a hairy monster so I have to keep on the ball at all times.  Just when you are cruzin along fine in normal mode that "is" when the pregnant dogareno bites you.............

Sorry to be reading this. Hope you are feeling peachy soon!

Possibly you have not developed smooth coordination between your clutch and your throttle yet. You may also be trying to ride the bike like a mountain bike. Not good. You can't lean a motorcycle at very slow speed to turn. You will lose. Keep it absolutely upright. If you can't make the turn, abort, grab the clutch and stop the bike and put your foot down.

Is this what happened with your last incident?

Feel better soon!

I think you might be right cur. I distinctly remember leaning it and looking down the street, I just didn't have speed to stay up right. I've done this same sorta turn so many times, it frustrates me that this happened and the injury obtained from a minor accident. All the bikes weight just down.. Ouch. In one if my other posts I asked if it'd be alright to ride the bike a bit over 600 miles until my service appointment next week. Don't think that'll be a problem now haha.  :-\ if anything it's a great learning experience and I'm happy that I've gotten that first big wreck/injury outa the way. The bike felt so sluggish this morning and after it fell pretty hard on my leg it stalled without me hitting the kill switch. I wonder if I had my planned 14t that I'm getting this maybe wouldnt of happened. I let the bike warm up for about 5 minutes this morning, but it really seems to want a few minutes of RIDING until it really wakes up.

True, the 14T will help, (but not "fix" this), and yes, a cold engine isn't happy yet. Three bars minimum on the gauge I should think, and definitely riding a few minutes, yes.

A hard lesson indeed. A 400# bike wins every time! Work on the hand coordination and stay bolt upright in slow maneuvers whatever you do.

I imagine at 6' 7" you may have a harder than average time getting your foot off the peg as well, so work on keeping that foot at the ready too.

I've done something similar. We all have. Maybe consider that taller Sargent seat for better seat-to-peg distance rather than slip-ons. Ask for Troy and tell him I sent you. Possibly he can add an extra 1/2+" at minimal cost since they tend to build stock 696/796/1100 evo seats to order rather than keep the them on the shelf.

Heal fast!

dont forget to look where you're going, weight the outside peg, and dragging the rear brake helps too.

hope everything turns out well and get better soon.

I hate slow speed turns. They always look goofy unless you're blasting around on a supermoto or something. Riding a bike (at any speed) is all about confidence. And on that note... I am confident enough where I don't give a f-ck, I make 3 point turns all over the place if I need to. U turns are a pregnant dog with clip-ons and the decreased turning radius. One of the minor drawbacks to go-fast (or go-fun) motorbikes...

+1 I find dragging the rear brake on slow U turns works a charm.

look into taking Total Control or the MSF Advanced Rider class, as both of those classes, you use your own bike and work on a lot of low speed & and high manueverability drills...you'll learn your bike is capable of a lot more that you think, IF you use the bike correctly.

14t will help for sure, On thing I noticed when I had my hyper was the shorter gearing from the factory (15/41 instead of 15-38/39)  which was almost like having a 14t.  That bike was so much easier to handle at low speeds than my previous S2R.  I have a 14t on my 848  now, and it has really helped. 

Slipping the clutch means to partially disengage it, passing less power to the wheel. I think you're using it backwards. Lot of folks flop engage and disengage when it comes to a clutch.

Sounds like you didn't keep enough RMPs to the engine combined with a bit to much engagement on the clutch. Bikes are happier with you've got some revs on the engine and some more clutch slipping. As Thought noted, a little bit of drag on the rear brake helps too.

Tight, slow speed maneuvers are a lot harder than folks think, as you've learned the hard way. It's counter-intuitive to keep the rpms up when you're trying to go slow.

Also doesn't help that you're probably using 4 different control inputs, throttle, clutch, rear brake and steering all at the same time and adjusting each constantly.

Tough brake man. I hope you heal quickly.

also, take a look at the video in this thread:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=51486.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=51486.0)

watch the head of the officer and you'll see the importance of looking where you want to go in low speed maneuvers.

and like sd said, keep in mind that the clutch is a analog device, not a digital one.  it's not 100% on and then 100% off... learning to modulate the clutch/throttle helps a lot at low speeds, esp with the monster since it's pretty rough at low rpm's

This post FTW!

You can and should still lean the bike in a low speed manuever but as Thought touches upon there's a technique to it.

Weight on the outside peg, and possibly shifting your actual body position up and to the outside of the lean. What this does is counterbalance the bike so that it doesn't fall over.

It's exactly opposite of what you usually do in a turn, because in a turn at speed the force of the turn itself is trying to slam the bike over to the opposite side of the turn, so you lean IN to counterbalance.

But on a slow turn the speed of the turn isn't enough to overcome gravity's attempt to pull the bike down so you lean the opposite way to balance it.


Dragging the rear brake at the same time allows you to apply more engine power and slip the clutch a little less. This just helps to add a bit of stability to the chassis and ease how fine a touch you might otherwise need to have.


Not to mention this is one of those rare instances where the front brake could be a liability because it would be easier to lock it when the forks are turned and you're going so slow - so by dragging the rear brake you can avoid all that, while also controling your speed.

I feel like I was using the mentioned techniques but I think leaned it too far, the engine was still warming up and on the verge of during so I increased the throttle while slipping the clutch more but not completely and before I knew it I was on the ground an in excruciating pain, and sadly still am :/ I think pulled the clutch in too far while in the lean I was and that's what doomed me. I did this same turn multiple times before but never directly after starting the engine. When I do get back on the bike I'm certainly gonna be a little scared and I definitely do not want a repeat. I plan on taking the advanced riders course in the spring.

Well, you're still a very new rider, and fine slow moves are a finesse skill set. You'll get there, but baby steps.

I hope you heal up quickly.

Sorry to hear about the wreck and the injury, hope you heal up soon. :-\

Everyone gave you excellent technical advice for how to take those slow speed turns. 
It is always hard getting back on after a wreck when your confidence is shaken.
When you are ready, if you can find a large empty parking lot to practice in, practice slow turns.  Start off with them really wide and then gradually tighten them up as you feel more comfortable. 
It does take a while to build the confidence back but it will come back.

If you are stuck having to take a tight turn when you are not up for it or the bike isn't warm enough yet, just go ahead and put your foot down and do it that way.

Also were you wearing knee/shin guards?  If not I do highly recommend them.

Hope you heal up soon..

It is also important to be in the correct line within the lane. For a left hand U, stay to the far right of your lane, make the turn before you reach the apex of the U, and you will exit at the far right of the lane on the other side. The closer you are to the left of the lane, the harder it will be to make the U.

A good way to learn is to go to an empty parking lot with no lamp posts/parking dividers, and practice making 8s... It will give you a good feel of what the bike can handle, and if you are in a tough spot, you can just straighten out and run wide without running into things. If you have, plastic cones, use them as markers.

I was used to riding smaller bikes which had a wider steering angle, it took me a bit to get used to the monster where the bar only turns about 20 degrees each way from the center...

hmm, i don't agree with this.  Check out this post: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=50071.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=50071.0)

you can definitely learn to lean the bike at low speeds. 

For really slow maneuvers, it helps to keep your RPMs high (3-5k) and just slip the clutch and rear brake to manipulate speed.  this way, the engine is smoother and wont chug-chug on you, and the gyroscopic effect of the spinning motor will help balance you (ive heard, tho not sure if this is a wives-tale).

If you do need to, you can put the inner foot down and prevent the bike from tipping over (like dirt bikers like to do) --- ONLY if you are really slow or about to stop.

hope you feel better   =(

Apparently I also broke my ankle. The docs thing my break looks pretty cool lol. Surgery tomorrow morning. My leg hurts like hell and the slight movement when I lift it is very awkward feeling. Doc's pretty optimistic about the outcome.

Bummer, heal up quick! 

Slow-speed turns are more about technique than outright skill, but the technique isn't obvious to a lot of folks.  Even playing with making a tight turn on your bicycle really slowly wouldn't be a bad idea.

One thing on a moto that takes some unique technique is the steering lock (which happens to be quite poor on a ducati). If you are in a lean and need to counter-act the lean, there are two main ways of doing it.  The standard, intuitive way that most riders do it is by increasing steering angle to make the bike stand up a bit more (think of it as moving the wheels more under the bike).  If you are already at full lock, this isn't an option and down you go unless... you add more power, which does the same thing.  You can also do it with weight shifting, but that's hard and not real practical on a heavy street bike.

If you are fairly new to riding, probably best to keep your turns so that they aren't at full lock and slow enough that you can dab a foot to hold the bike up if things get out of sorts.  When you have time, find an empty parking lot and practice going in circles with the bars held solidly against the lock.  This will require you use brakes/power exclusively to modulate lean and keep from falling over.  It'll be hard at first, but once you get it, it'll be easy and then you'll be able to u-turn like a mofo.

Once you get the basics down you can start playing with hanging way off to the outside (opposite of a high-speed turn) to get more lean angle for a given speed.  The more the bike leans, the tighter it will turn at a given speed.  It is also less likely to push the front end on a soft surface.  For this stuff, watch the turning video at trials training center or, if you can, watch Ryan Young's Trials Training video.  The turning part is applicable to all 2-wheeled bikes and trials guys have tight turns down to an art.

btw I compete in observed trials so making crazy-tight, balanced turns is something I know a bit about [Dolph]

I'm sure this took many years and many more wrecks to learn how to do that...

Wonder if there is a blooper reel with all the people that could not do it so elegantly.

Damn...spiral fractures and a broken ankle from a slow speed drop. That's a serious bummer. Good luck with the healing.

What sort of boots were you wearing?

I had on a pair of hightop motorcycle boots, but the bikes weight landed above the boots.

While reading this thread and some other similar. Then, I thought, while there are some excellent advises around, some riding techniques  (such as this, slow speed turn) really need "visual" explanation. (you know, sometimes the words just aint' enough ...)
So, I try my best, trying to "show" (some already explained here) things with picture. Hope it helps.

Typical example of newb u-turn
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/u_turn_1.jpg)

What's wrong with it ?

1. turn your head (look as far forward as possible)
More than 9 out of 10 times, the newb riders are looking at too closely. (looking right front of the front tire, or a couple of feet away, too close. )
In a situation like u-turn (slow speed, full lock turn), you should be looking at the end of the turn when you start the turn.
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/u_turn_2.jpg)
And, TURN YOUR HEAD, not just moving eyeballs.
(when you properly turn your head, your left shoulder is down, slightly back, right shoulder slightly moves forward.
Left elbow bent slightly more. Your upper body is relaxed.

2. relax your shoulder and elbow.
If not, the bike's front end cannot turn freely, therefore, it runs wide. Not just doing u-turn, your upper body should remain relaxed while riding.

(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/img008.jpg)

3. hold (& turn) the throttle in the right way

(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/img007.jpg)
 Starting with little finger, then ring finger. Then, middle & index finger, thumb all should be relaxed, only lightly holding the grip. And the throttle grip should be diagonal to your hand, not 90 degree. Hold and turn the throttle like when you turn door knob.

This is a bad example. Throttle grip 90 degree to your hand. You have to bend the wrist to turn the throttle. You cannot do precise control. When you turn the throttle, your elbow and entire right arm will move. Sit on a bike without engine running, try to pull throttle cable just by 1 mm with this grip. Difficult, isn't it ?
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/u_turn_3.jpg)

Then, try to hold it diagonally, and turn like door nob.
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/u_turn_4.jpg)

And don't put all four finger on the brake lever. In this pic, index finger is placed on the lever but close to the pivot. This finger placement is not for braking. (you will fall if you pull F brake during u-turn.) It (index finger on the lever) acts as a stabilizer. Because Ducatis have rather larger throttle cam, you need to control the throttle grip really delicately.

Ok, I need to explain more, about how to use rear brake during the turn (very useful technique in many , many situations), but I have to go to work now. So I'll cover the rear brake later.

PS. Hope you heel soon :)

I'm quite impressed with the explanation and the drawings [bow_down]

WOW, I'm really impressed. The drawings certainly go hand in hand with great advice being discussed here and I'm a bit more of a visual learner so the drawings are great. Can't wait for the 2nd set with trail braking. Great drawing!

I've been in bed for about a week now and I've had a lot of time to think about the accident. What bother's me most is that I'm not really sure what I did to make me crash. I distantly remember turning my head to the far left and looking down the street at the start of the turn, and then I was on the ground in agonizing pain. Seeing how I think I crashed in the first 1/4 of the turn, I'm assuming that I tipped over because my entry speed was too slow, it being a fairly narrow street I wanted to make sure I wasn't going too fast, I maintained my throttle steady and attempted to only slightly disengage the clutch but pulled clutch in too far, rear wheel lost power and stability was lost. I tipped. I believe I was slightly on the rear brake, at the start of the turn, until I crashed. So I'm assuming that the critical missing piece here was my inability to effectively commandeer the 1st gear in this slow turn, bike lost power, and I did not shift weight to my outer foot pegs. Things I did right, looked through the turn, wearing all of my gear - shin protection :/, maintained a relaxed torso, gripping with legs. I just cut power in the bike. Let me know if that sounds like a logical conclusion.

Puts things into a different perspective though. I really appreciated having 2 functioning legs and being able to put my own pants on for one, and being able to SLEEEEP... haha. Gf is amazing though, true ANGEL and that's what I need right now. And I need to be working to pay for this motorcycle!

I'm really afraid of experiencing this same kinda pain again/disability and I'm hoping my fear doesn't make me lockup in a similar turn.

Actually from your description, it sounds like you were going into the u-turn too fast, or expecting to be going fast, and therefore leaned the bike over in order to countersteer through the turn. The reason why I think this is that the bike tipped over before you had the opportunity to pull your foot off the peg, as if you expected to ride out the u-turn and did not feel the bike becoming unstable.

This is not a wisecrack, but an honest constructive criticism as I have done the same thing before except that I pinned the throttle, and the bike slid out from underneath me and did not land on my foot.

+1 [thumbsup]

So, as some people already mentioned, rear brake is really useful in many situations on the street.

First, try this simple experiment / practice. (Do it in a safe area, such as empty parking lot, etc.)
Start the bike, stay in 1st gear (or 2nd if it's too difficult to do it in 1st gear).
Keep the speed low, (30 MPH or less, as slow as you can go without stalling / using half clutch) maintain the same throttle opening.
Now, GENTLY apply rear brake.
At the same time, open the throttle just a little bit more, so that you can maintain the same speed WITH rear brake applying, but not too much so that you don't accelerate.

fig.1
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/fig_1w.jpg)

Don't use clutch.
Can you keep the same speed while using rear brake? Then, try to apply a bit more rear brake. Don't shut off the throttle. The bike will slow down with the same throttle opening. You will notice engine rpm also drops.
Then, little less brake, the engine rpm rise and the bike will pick up speed.
DO NOT release brake pedal, keep pressing down the pedal, just change the pressure. Also, do not open / close the throttle.

Try to focus on adjusting the speed by rear brake, without opening / closing the throttle.
While doing this practice / experiment, you should be able to feel

1) this does not upset the bike's front end
2)when applying rear brake, rear end of the bike " sink" down a bit.

fig.2
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/fig_2w.jpg)
Next, try to do the same slow speed adjustment by throttle on / off. Same speed as rear brake practice.

fig.3
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/fig_3w.jpg)
You will notice the difference immediately.
You will feel a lot more pitching motion, front end moving up and down, unpleasant shock right after opening the throttle.

(Note : You have to do these at SLOW speed. As slow as you can go. )

Now, imagine you're dealing with this ...

fig. 4
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/fig_4w.jpg)
It's downhill, and it's decreasing radius corner. You can easily tell , from the practice described above, doing throttle on / off during the turn is not a good idea.
Then, how do you take corners like this ?
(to be continued ...)

First of all, I just have to say that the drawings/illustration is freaking AWESOME!!!!!!  Are you an artist or graphic designer by trade?  It's great you actually took the time to think through your reply to the thread and put it on paper. 

Anyway, I am not sure if it was mentioned or not.  Aside from throttle and brake control, I thought body position is really important, at least for me it is.  During a normal speed turn, you would lean the bike, as well as your body, into the direction of the turn.  However for a slow turn, you should lean your bike slightly into the turn while your body lean the opposite direction.  Overall, your body+bike should still be balanced upright.  Keep the engine RPM up and feather the clutch to keep moving.  Sometimes I would put my inside leg down to help with balance, dirt bike style.  I know some of you might disagree with this technique but it works well for slow tight turns in the parking lot. 

great pics man, after you're done you should collate them and put them in their own thread in the "riding techniques" forum

I'd just read a great article about low speed control being the best for confidence and awareness in all situations.  The brunt of the article was that at low speeds, you're looking laterally, as well as where you're trying to point the bike.  You're also relying on your coordination (no visuals) to control the clutch, throttle and brake.

Suggestions earlier of taking  Total Control  course or even doing parking lot drills would go a long way to help you.

+1.  I think the sketches are better than photo's or a video for showing technique.  Amazing and talented group we have here, artists, members building their own titanium frames and who knows what else. 

Bob