I've got a new 796 with a plastic tank. Gonna be snowing up here soon. Do I store it with the tank full like a metal tank or empty. I've got no access to non ethanol gas.
Where are you "up there"? Fill the tank with 260 GT if there's a location anywhere close to you. It's stabilized as well.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/ (http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/)
I'd leave it empty.
I'm in upstate NY, near Albany. There is a gas station not too far from me that sells racing fuel that's 112 octane. It's like 9 bucks a gallon though. Don't know how long it's been sittin in their tank. I can't imagine they sell a lot of it. If I store it empty I might be able to talk my wife into letting me keep my bike in the house instead of out in the cold garage out back. :)
112 octane isn't what you need and may even be oxygenated and leaded. $9- is about right for race gas, but you want the unleaded 100 non-oxygenated variety. Maybe some performance car or bike places near you have it. There are several other brands out there besides Sunoco too. VP comes to mind. All roughly 100 octane.
Next best option might be to buy fresh premium and add both pink AND blue Stabil to it. You can't really overtreat and water won't be an issue.
I'm personally not a big fan of leaving tanks with pumps and filters, rubber gaskets and all dry over a long period once they've been in use. That too can cause ugly problems.
When I lived in NJ, the bike tanks always wintered full. Never had this PA6 issue to deal with before I'll admit but all those bikes had zero issues in spring with race gas or Stabil in the tanks. Your choice.
rumor has it.... its the ethanol that causes the tank to expand...mainly because ethanol retains water from the air much easier. I find that if i keep gas running through my tank (my old one atleast) it doesnt swell. but if i let it sit for some time with a full tank and humid air, it will swell.
So my advise is to siphon the gas out, run it till it dies and leave the gas cap open so evaporate all the gasoline and then store it dry.
If you're really worried about the hoses and gaskets at the bottom, just leave a tiny bit in the tank so they're covered.
Either way, run some stabilizer thru it so the hoses and such that you don't drain have satbilized gas in them.
If you use this x2 along with regular Stabil, http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx (http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx) water should be no issue and a full tank mostly negates any condensation in the first place. If this fails, then you know it's the ethanol itself rather than the water which attacks PA6 tanks.
Thankfully, for me no issue as I have access to 92 - 93 ethanol-free fuel for now and 260 GT indefinitely, so my tank will be full over winter as usual.
Quote from: Curmudgeon on October 21, 2011, 07:10:02 PM
If you use this x2 along with regular Stabil, http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx (http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx) water should be no issue and a full tank mostly negates any condensation in the first place. If this fails, then you know it's the ethanol itself rather than the water which attacks PA6 tanks.
Thankfully, for me no issue as I have access to 92 - 93 ethanol-free fuel for now and 260 GT indefinitely, so my tank will be full over winter as usual.
Is there a reason you use such high octane fuel (other than its ethanol-free)?
Quote from: Curmudgeon on October 21, 2011, 04:34:30 PM
112 octane isn't what you need and may even be oxygenated and leaded. $9- is about right for race gas, but you want the unleaded 100 non-oxygenated variety. Maybe some performance car or bike places near you have it. There are several other brands out there besides Sunoco too. VP comes to mind. All roughly 100 octane.
Next best option might be to buy fresh premium and add both pink AND blue Stabil to it. You can't really overtreat and water won't be an issue.
I'm personally not a big fan of leaving tanks with pumps and filters, rubber gaskets and all dry over a long period once they've been in use. That too can cause ugly problems.
When I lived in NJ, the bike tanks always wintered full. Never had this PA6 issue to deal with before I'll admit but all those bikes had zero issues in spring with race gas or Stabil in the tanks. Your choice.
ALl of the race gas suppliers have the lead formulations marked and you can look online to see which ones have the dreaded metal in them:
http://www.bazellracefuels.com/racingfuels.htm (http://www.bazellracefuels.com/racingfuels.htm)
THis link is a good one too because it shows RM/2, RON and MON for a lot of the fuels. Ducatis come with the manual saying "95 RON" only and this gives you an idea what RON compares to pump octane in the USA.
However, my S2R did not come with a catalyst, so I'm not sure it would bother anything. Pretty much anything before 2005 or so didn't have one -- check the website. If it has a Euro2 emissions spec = no catalyst. Euro3 started phasing in 2005-2006 depending on the model. I believe the Multistroodles got them first in 04 or 05
ducatiz,
For what it's worth, my 796 manual reads:
"Unleaded fuel with 95 fuel octane rating (at least)" and
"Fuel system
SIEMENS indirect electronic injection.
Throttle body diameter:
45 mm
Injectors per cylinder: 1
Holes per injector: 8
Fuel supply: 95-98 RON."
For catalyst it reads:
"Exhaust system
Equipped with catalytic converter in compliance with Euro 3
emission regulations.
USA model: not catalyzed."
Since ~ 1974 I've been running CAM II Unleaded mixes in all the bikes. I used to have a CAM II chart/graph on the wall of my old garage which allowed quick calculation of effective R+M/2 with various percentages and various pump octanes. Sadly it didn't make the move with me. Another complication with pump gas in the U.S.; sometimes the research octane in one "93 premium" fuel is two points lower than another "93 premium", e.g. 96 vs 98. Just to confuse matters of course.
If nothing else I know the CAM II unleaded has a wonderful, toxic additive package which keeps fuel systems pristine. Great for glue-sniffers too. ;) Usually I run a mix with a target of 98 or 99 research octane. Beyond 102 I find even my vehicles with knock sensors don't benefit much, but they do love 100!
It would be great to have a fuel thread but we'd need a refinery lab technician on the DMF to compare the additive packages used by the various major oil companies. From experience I know which to use and which to avoid based on fuel system problems we used to see in our dealerships.
non-ethanol gas = fill it up
ethanol = leave it dry
best idea, drain the tank, wash it out, caswell it during your winter down time and not worry about tank expansion anymore. it's what i did last winter when i got my 796. there are a lot of good instructions on how best to do it on this site if you do a search.
Quote from: DucNaked on October 21, 2011, 07:24:24 PM
Is there a reason you use such high octane fuel (other than its ethanol-free)?
Usually I mix it to raise the octane of the pump gas I buy 1 - 3 points and to get the benefit of the additive package. If I couldn't feel any difference, I wouldn't bother too often. All but one of my bikes requires or can benefit from 98 research octane
Quote from: Curmudgeon on October 21, 2011, 08:53:32 PM
For catalyst it reads:
"Exhaust system
Equipped with catalytic converter in compliance with Euro 3
emission regulations.
USA model: not catalyzed."
that's very interesting. i find it hard to believe that EPA did not harmonize with Euro3 on the issue of catalysts for bikes by now. the general rule (I thought) was that if the bike was Euro3 then it had catalysts!
**edit
The online version of the 2011 796 manual says the exhaust is catalyzed.. page 118 (spelling below is verbatim copy, really gives me a nostalgic feeling for the old Cagiva manuals)
Link: download manual (http://ducati.com/vi/service/service.do?task=downloadDocument&type=booklets&yearBooklets=16&yearBooklets_new_value=false&familyBooklets=22&familyBooklets_new_value=false&modelBooklets=20&modelBooklets_new_value=false&langBooklets=103&langBooklets_new_value=false)
Quote
E
Exhaust system
Equipped with catalityc converter.
Colour schemes
Ducati Anniversary red code 473.101 (PAL);
Clear lacquer, code 228.880 (PPG);
Red frame and black rims.
Arctic White Semigloss
Dual primer Artic White code L2920057 (Lechler);
Base Pearl white Ducati SF code L2909004 (Lechler);
Clear matt lacquer 2K code 923I0652 (Palinal);
Red frame and black rims.
Diamond Black Semigloss
Base primer 2K black code 54M22705 (Akzo Nobel);
Base Diamond Black code 57E22714 (Akzo Nobel);
Clear matt lacquer 2K code 923I1281
Quote from: ducatiz on October 21, 2011, 09:18:07 PM
The online version of the 2011 796 manual says the exhaust is catalyzed.. page 118 (spelling below is verbatim copy, really gives me a nostalgic feeling for the old Cagiva manuals)
Hmmm... In the pdf I downloaded for ease of reading on pp. 116 and in my hard copy on pp. 118 it says what I copied and pasted above, namely "USA model - non-catalysed". Go figure! Want a copy?
Isn't Xerox doing the manuals now? ;)
Im on Long Island i usually fill it up and keep stabil in the tank. And on those not too cold days i take her out for a quick spin. [Dolph]
Quote from: thought on October 21, 2011, 09:00:34 PMbest idea, drain the tank, wash it out, caswell it during your winter down time and not worry about tank expansion anymore. it's what i did last winter when i got my 796. there are a lot of good instructions on how best to do it on this site if you do a search.
Not to jack this thread anymore, but haven't some people recommended against the caswell sealant?
like who?
Like this forum.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.865 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.865)
didnt read the whole thread, but it sounds like 1 dealer who advised against it. and it sounds like he has never done it either. though i will say that my tank is uncoated and has shown no signs of expanding.
How many months and miles have you had it on your tank?
so far, the only reasons that it seems that the caswell coating messes up is due to incorrect mixing of the epoxy, one reported case in that thread. one guy noted that some chunks were coming off but he had the dealer put it in, not himself. you're also noting one point on page 58 of a 125+ page thread... people were still trying to figure out the tank expansion issue at that point and there were a lot less people doing the caswell route.
for everyone else who has done it, i havent seen a report of any tank expansion issues. also, in terms of invalidating the warranty if the tank does expand, the dealer would a) have to notice it was caswell'ed b) have to prove that the tank expanded because of the caswell. which is pretty much an impossible case due to the fact that ducati is already trying to settle the case of the e10 expanding the tanks. current offer is that they will a) replace tanks up to 6 years after purchase or b) on some models, give you a smaller tank so when it expands it wont affect the other areas.
personally, if you really trust your dealer, he's done several coatings before, and you're kinda lazy... have the dealer do it. but if you dont mind taking some time out to do it yourself, it's not super hard... just a bit tedious. lots of advice in this forum and you can make sure that the mix is correct yourself instead of having to depend on someone else for it.
To be clear - I'm just playing devil's advocate. I haven't seen enough information to sway me one way or the other. I heard some reports of people having bad experiences with it and it might be entirely due to user error. I was just bringing up the counterpoint.
Quote from: Christian on October 24, 2011, 06:36:24 PM
To be clear - I'm just playing devil's advocate. I haven't seen enough information to sway me one way or the other. I heard some reports of people having bad experiences with it and it might be entirely due to user error. I was just bringing up the counterpoint.
So a thread of dozens of people who've done it with no problems versus one person who had a problem, likely due to application error doesn't sway you one way or another? Plus the fact that the Multistrada guys (www.multistrada.net (//http://)) were doing it at least a year before I posted it as a possible solution and none of them have had a problem at all? That doesn't sway you?
(shrug)... ok..
Haha hey, like I said, I just want to be sure.
Didn't know the MTS guys were doing it beforehand. Those guys are probably racking up some miles.
As I see it, you do it and you can't really turn back, so I want to be 100% sure before I do anything to my tank.
Dozens of people doing it and reporting no problems does not mean it is a trouble free solution. I've spent enough time on forums and with various vehicles to know that the popular opinion can then become unpopular very fast when a rash of people speak up about issues they're having. A few dozen people is not enough of a sample rate for me.
Measure three times, cut once!
Unless in carpentry, then I'm more of a measure once and cut six or seven times kinda guy.
But back to the OP's question - the safest method with ethanol fuel is to drain the tank for the winter. Whether or Caswell it or not when drained is your choice.
it works.
stabil/startron/etc are worthless to prevent problems with expansion. they help the gasoline burn better but do not help with the hygroscopic nature of ethanol. water still collects and separates and the PA6 material laps it up.
I have metal tanks, I top them up with hi test and put in some stabil to keep the fuel fresh. it also keeps any moisture from clinging inside and causing rust.
however, the plastic tanks will be drained... even my coated S2R tank now..
Quote from: Christian on October 24, 2011, 06:21:40 PM
How many months and miles have you had it on your tank?
almost a year and 10,000 miles.
my dealer expressly recommended the caswell coating. that was only a couple months ago, so results remain to be seen.
as far as the fellow who had coating chipping off... my thought on that was always that he likely jammed the fuel filler at the gas station down into his tank every time... maybe cracked or chipped the coating... just seemed odd to me that the spot where it DID chip just so happened to be right at the filler opening.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 24, 2011, 08:27:28 PM
it works.
stabil/startron/etc are worthless to prevent problems with expansion. they help the gasoline burn better but do not help with the hygroscopic nature of ethanol. water still collects and separates and the PA6 material laps it up.
I have metal tanks, I top them up with hi test and put in some stabil to keep the fuel fresh. it also keeps any moisture from clinging inside and causing rust.
however, the plastic tanks will be drained... even my coated S2R tank now..
Are you leaving the filler cap open as well?
Quote from: rockaduc on October 25, 2011, 01:37:29 PM
Are you leaving the filler cap open as well?
yup.. once empty, leave it open. my garage is heated too so it stays very dry.
depending on where you live, id watch out for roachs and rats, pregnant doges love dark places.
Quote from: He Man on October 25, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
depending on where you live, id watch out for roachs and rats, pregnant doges love dark places.
none here. have farm cats prowling the area, they just rip thru the chipmunks and field mice like a blender.