Ducati Monster Forum

Sorry I can't give you the links as they are industry only and secured..., but you get the idea. OK for bikes IMO but will make a moped nosebleed expensive probably!
 
"Teacup-Sized Brake Device on Motorbikes Could Save Hundreds of Lives
  [Source:S&D Group at European Parliament]
 
 
S&D Euro MPs Monday backed an EU proposal to fit motorbikes over 50cc with anti-lock brakes (ABS) in order to save the lives of hundreds of riders every year. The rules will also affect scooters, quad bikes and mopeds. After the vote in the European Parliament's internal market committee on a regulation that covers both safety and vehicle emission standards, S&D group negotiator Kerstin Westphal said: "This EU regulation is a life-saver. The ABS system for motorbikes and scooters is no bigger than a teacup – but it will saave the lives of 500 bikers a year." Despite an overall fall in road deaths last year, motorbike deaths rose by about 10%. Studies show that ABS could cut the death toll by 20%. Available video includes an edited package."

"EU proposal to fit motorbikes over 50cc with anti-lock brakes".......    "The rules will also affect scooters, quad bikes and mopeds."

May effect the affordability of mopeds over 50cc.   Most mopeds are 49cc for long established legislative reasons and so wont be included in this latest edict.

I love what they do with stats though  [roll].  Overall road deaths fell, whilst at the same time motorbike rose deaths rose by 10%.   What they fail to report is whether the number of registered motorcycles and/or motorcycle kms ridden in the same period increased.  If there are 20% more motorcycles on the roads, then a 10% rise in motorcycle road deaths could be following the general trend of falling road fatalities. 

I think the last time I saw a mention of this was that by (projected) 2017 ABS was going to be mandatory in bikes all over the EU.

According to all the research that has already been done in this field, "risk compensation" tells us, their logic is flawed. Although the intent is well meaning.

" Anti-lock brakes. There are at least three studies which show that drivers' response to antilock brakes is to drive faster, follow closer and brake later, accounting for the failure of ABS to result in any measurable improvement in road safety. The studies were performed in Canada, Denmark and Germany.[1] [2] [3]

A study led by Fred Mannering, a professor of civil engineering at Purdue University supports risk compensation, terming it the "offset hypothesis". "

This is an intersting topic to me. Im an MSF instructor, and I always get students who asked about abs, and now traction control. It usually is phrased something like "Well since im a new rider.. do you think I should get one of those ABS and/or traction control equipmed bikes, so ill be safer?"

My answer is usually along the lines of, "well there are currently no studies to support or discount the benefit of either for 1st year rider specifically, there are a number of studies that suggest they make EXPERIENCED riders ride more dangerously due to risk compensation".  Therefore, I cannot fathom how a new rider would not be affected by the same phenomenon, likely moreso.

Hmmm...

These are Eurocrats..., and you expect them to make sense???!!!  ;) They aren't elected and are not accountable and generally do whatever they fancy. Do you watch the news on the EC?

As for ABS, I have to take issue with just about everything you've said. I've had a few bikes with it. The only times I've ever had it kick in was at fairly low speed when turning and finding loose gravel in my path. Never needed it so far in a corner but am glad to have all the help I can get if I come upon a rock fall or wet leaves.

I certainly have never felt that ABS made me invincible, so I definitely don't ride any harder with it, nor would I when driving a sports car with it. NOT a big fan of dynamic stability controls though when they make a vehicle which doesn't handle properly when you turn it off, and yes, I've driven a few of those. It was my business.

It also does not take into account fault.

If someone is going around in a dump truck driving over bikers, ABS isn't going to help anything.

At least it's removable if you don't want it.  I would probably want it on my commuter bike or a cruiser, but not on a sport bike.

The numerous studies speak for themselves. They actually arent specific to ABS.. or even motorcycling in general.  There are several studies regarding seat belt, parachuting, etc, etc. It seems to be simply stated.. "the safer someone feels about performing an action.. the more likelier they are to perform it in a riskier fashion". One report i read (very interesting read) had NOTHING to do about mootorcycles at all. It was about the financial crisis. It summized that the banks were more than willing to generate massive sub prime loans because there was NO PERSONAL RISK. Why is a whole other story.  But the concepts remains the same. 

I remember reading one study conducted in germany, on a car livery fleet. They studied the affect that ABS had on their fleet vehicles, versus the non ABS vehicles.  After a 3 year study, you would assume there were LESS accidents on the ABS equipped vehicles? right?  Turns out the ABS equipped vehicles ha d a higher accident rate than the non equipnmed vehicles. Why? that part is up for debate.

Im all for technology, but what were dealing with is not technology.. but human behaviour.  How is that technology being used?  Do some reading on these topics
"risk compensation" "offset hypothesis".

http://www.damninteresting.com/the-balance-of-risk/ (http://www.damninteresting.com/the-balance-of-risk/)

It's true and it's why I've always said cars should not have brakes at all.

Just a guess but I doubt you'd mind the ABS on the M796. It couldn't be less intrusive nor does it remove any feedback as far as I can detect. Of course, your mileage might vary.  ;)

Before buying the bike I read every review and riding impression I could find in English or German. One reviewer who rides a lot harder than I was impressed with it on some greasy roads in the hills above Bologna in the spring and said he was glad he had it.

Whatever Ducati is using, it has nothing to do with the scary ABS on F800 series BMWs.  ;) Don't ask...

I can totally see it being useful but I'd have to be convinced for the style of riding I'd be doing.  But if it's as you say, then it might work.

once again, im not saying these technologies dont work. They clearly do work. Its just that the intended result seems to be the exact opposite of whats showing up in the lab.  Sure, the vehicle is stopping in shorter distances, so possibly the driver doesnt die.. but there are now, higher fatalities to passengers or pedestrians due to the higher speeds the driver is perceived to be capable of safely handling.  Simply put.. the target moved, thats all. So is it safer? I guess that depends on who wound up in the ambulance. The driver, passenger or pedestrian.. lol

I'm interested in seeing how much different the race abs that Honda is using in their cbr's is from the Ducati abs.  From what the reviewers are saying about that one system on the track, it's pretty much invisible and only kicks in once it's really needed.

In a quick search, found this interesting. Obviously nobody here has a death wish either. Think of granny pulling out of a side street on you!  ;) Ducati Monster 1100 ABS - brake tested (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6sTbgJgA0E#)

granny ran a red light and nearly killed me once and it was my experience at crazy braking that saved me.  plus i was on my Elefant and I don't think ABS would do to well on a dual sport (old style)

 :)

Not sure, but might have been a handful just as you came to a complete stop. Might be OK. I had it on a K100RT with 8" of travel and you had to be strong enough to keep it up when the suspension rebounds. I couldn't do that today for sure.

Besides granny, my other fave is the hausfrau in the big SUV who looks you square in the eye just before turning left right in front of you! Missed one of those on the T-100 by 30' this past summer and that thing has only fair brakes and 90 lbs more mass than the 796.

Riding 1/2 mile ahead is the only way to survive.

BTW, a good friend had the accident you avoided back in 1976 in Bergen County NJ and planted an R90S through the rear door of a car while he went airbourne over it. Not only was he super skilled and experienced rider but was the BMW liason to Butler & Smith. He was laid up for several weeks after that one. A quick Google shows that he died in a kayak accident at age 70 which is sad, but not a guy you could keep down. His motorcycle tour business is mentioned in this article. http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/06/28/89571-tucsonan-beer-known-for-adventurous-spirit/ (http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/06/28/89571-tucsonan-beer-known-for-adventurous-spirit/)

Question: how many of those studies reference motorcycles or other vehicles where the front and rear brakes are independent?


And yet there are numerous studies that show that a new rider, or even an experienced rider on a "new to him" bike are more likely to have an accident than an experienced rider on a bike that they're familiar with. The logical conclusion is that if a new rider learns to ride on a bike with ABS, using "safe riding practices," then they're likely safer than their classmate on a bike with conventional brakes.

As a fellow MSF Rider Coach, I feel it's more important to emphasize the role of drinking and riding ("Almost 50% of all riders killed had been drinking. One third of these riders had a BAC above the legal limit." <MSF Basic Rider Course, Rider's Handbook. Edition 7.1. (c) 2009. P. 43>) than to de-emphasize or discredit safety features now available.

All of the studies you cite refer to drivers without ABS who are now suddenly gifted with a supernatural ability to stop.

If you're a cautious rider to begin with, as most MSF grads are (by comparison) then ABS only makes you safer.

Your conclusions are logical, Id tend to agree that a + b=c.  However, I simply citing the results of multiple studies on risk compensation.  Its certainly not specific to motorcycles and ABS. Just multiple studies that show, the safer someone believes they are, the higher up the "risk ladder" theyll climb. In many documented instances, nullifying the effects of the technical advantages.  Feel free to point out a study which illustrates a safety mechanism not being affected by risk compensation, provided the end user is aware of the technological benefit.

Now with that in mind, ofcourse I do agree there are much more important areas to focus on during a BRC. I just feel its unethical to answer a question based on logical conclusions, no matter how reasonable they are.. when theres clearly documented evidence to the contrary.

After thinking about this for a bit, I realized theres a much easier way to address the question. Because theres really two totally different issues happening here.

Question: Will ABS help me stop in shorter distances?
Answer:   Absolutely. Clearly documented that your breaking distances will be significantly reduced.

question: Will this make me a safer rider?
Answer:   Behavioral studies in the area of risk compensation suggest that they may or may not.. based on the decisions you make.

Interesting little read, but its literally one of millions out there:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/street_savvy/122_1107_modern_motorcycle_safety_street_savvy/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/street_savvy/122_1107_modern_motorcycle_safety_street_savvy/index.html)

I think ABS is a helpful technology that would benefit most riders.  I also very firmly think it is a rider's choice as to whether it is worth the weight and cost, for some people it should be a no-brainer, for others its equally clearly not ideal -- for many others it'll be a close call and a call that we can make for our selves much better than can some fat idiot on the hill.  Personally, I'm on the fence as to whether I'd want it on my bikes.  Also note that ABS systems vary a lot -- some are genuinely terrible (early BMW) some are quite good (current CBR600RR).  All are expensive and add weight.

A ton of crapy riders and a few good ones crash because they inadvertently lock the front, abs could almost eliminate those crashes.  For that matter, fresh, quality tires probably could too in most circumstances  :P

I don't mind good abs on cars, but then I don't have a separate brake pedal for each wheel on a car so having a computer proportion braking as traction is available can be helpful.  On the moto I can do a pretty darn good job myself and the idea of sliding a little bit if I botch it doesn't make me too nervous, but I've been racing off road for almost two decades so I may be a tad more comfortable sliding around than your typical squid.

While slightly off topic, I think THIS is the most important thing to teach new motorcyclist. Riding a motorcycle takes much more concentration than driving a car (arguable if that should be the case or not  [laugh]).

Back to the topic at hand...


I consider myself a fairly experienced rider now, and have ridden various kinds of bike (on road, off road...um...no road :P). Anyways, I recently was test riding a friends new pavement eater (sport tourer) and got to experience the joys of it's ABS. No sarcasm here: I think I would of lost his brand new bike to a ditch on a damp road if it hadn't been for the ABS kicking in.

As experienced as many of us are, there are some things you can't control on the road. As much as I'm used to riding and sliding around offroad, I didn't see this instance coming (super slick section of road near an intersection...thinking it was some diesel or something, and the road was already damp), and the ABS did exactly what it was supposed to.

Obviously this isn't the kind of bike you're pushing to it's limits, but the system was non-existant 99.9% of the time...but when I needed it, it kicked in. I like it.

Just my personal opinion based on this one experience, though.  [Dolph]