Hello All,
My local dealer just confirmed my new 05 S2R800 gas tank is in. Since its fresh out of the box, I'd like to coat it now before I have to deal with the expanding issues later on.
As a precursor I read some of the existing posts on how to coat a plastic tank. However I need to get some clarifications as some things are not settling well in my brain
1) It looks like one kit is more than enough to coat a tank. But I would prefer not to have excess. Someone please confirm that half of the mixture is adequate for getting a good coat.
2) I see how people are covering the bottom of the gas tank w/ plexi and the old O-Ring. But what about the gas cap? I'm assuming the gas cap doesn't get insalled. What did everyone use to cover this up?
3) Most of the internals on the S2R are built into the flange at the bottom of the assembly. What about the vent and overflow lines? I don't know if the internal hoses come pre-installed in the new tanks or what. How did whoever's done this before manage not to clog these up during coating process.
4) Peope have been saying that the caswell coat flows really slowly. Some people have mentioned thinning it to obtain better flow. What are you supposed to thin it with? How much did you add into the half mixture (mentioned above) to get the right consistency?
Thanks in advance.
You can buy black rubber stoppers to fit your gashole at the Ace Hardware. Seeing the design of the fill tube, you may want to fit the puck to the inside rather than the outside & just carefully reach in & pull the plug from your gashole as the Caswell's curing.
Ask DP what he uses to thin, and his technique. I think he just uses regular paint thinner & patience. Any excess will ooze out while the tank's setting up.
I don't think you need to worry about the vent & overflow lines, examine the routing and you will see what I mean.
1) One kit is enough, and yes a half batch will be adequate.
2) A rubber stopper will work, but make sure it's a good fit, and tape it securely so it doesn't come out.
3) Vent and overflow lines are not an issue inside the tank.
4) An ounce of thinner works well.
These are the best info threads:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46057.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46057.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43642.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43642.0)
I recently did a tank, when I get some free time, I'll post up some more info.
Quote from: Speeddog on December 22, 2011, 07:13:05 PM
I recently did a tank, when I get some free time, I'll post up some more info.
Please do. I also got my brand new tank recently and will be coating it this winter. Also, I've found a gas station with 100% gas (no ethnol) so my Duc will be drinking pure gas from now on.
1. Do not use anything to thin the solution. It's not a problem with metal tanks, but solvents WILL react with the nylon and can create a gas pocket. If you do thin it, there is no guarantee this will happen, but it can. The solution is thick, so do it in a warm LOW HUMIDITY environment.
2. You will need to rough up the surface somewhat. Use a hard plastic bristled brush, a small one and get as much of the inside as you can. During the cure process, some of the components of the material come to the surface and stay there. Roughing it breaks these up a bit and permits adherence.
3. You can do more than one coat. The first coat should not use any thinning, but the subsequent coats CAN.
4. I can't stress how important temperature, humidity and motion are for this. Don't do it when the temp is under 70 and if the humidity is over 25-30%. You want the air a bit dry. Nylon sucks up ambient moisture and the rate of absorption increases with temperature and humidity.
Everything I know about doing this I have learned over the last 2 years of following the tank issue. There is no problem with epoxy adhering to nylon, depending on the type and so far Caswell's has shown itself to adhere well. There are others available for all of the polyamines (including Teflon). The issue is really prep. The instructions for Caswells are for a metal tank, don't follow them (i.e. thinning the solution and using nails in the tank)
PM me if you have additional questions.
One more thing, look on the underside of the tank for two things.
1. The mould date
2. The inspector's stamp
I am curious what dates you find.
(click thumbs)
Inspector stamp
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_7a8e9439.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/7a8e9439.jpg)
Mould "clock" showing date -- number of dots missing is month, number in center is year.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_b802c796.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/b802c796.jpg)
I think the quality/compatibility of the reducer makes a difference on this 'Tiz.
If someone uses acetone/gasoline/paint thinner I can see a problem.
If you use a quality urethane or epoxy reducer I don't think gas pockets will be an issue.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 23, 2011, 05:38:23 AM
I think the quality/compatibility of the reducer makes a difference on this 'Tiz.
If someone uses acetone/gasoline/paint thinner I can see a problem.
If you use a quality urethane or epoxy reducer I don't think gas pockets will be an issue.
the issue raised by the maker was the interaction of the reducer with the nylon itself. i don't understand the specifics, but the rotomolding process includes some ingredients which outgass during the cure and form a layer on the surface. the outside surface is hand finished, treated (sanded down and sealed) then primed for paint. The inner surface is untouched, literally as is from the rotomold so the top layers of the nylon can have crap trapped. if you want to see evidence of this, look at the surface and see the trapped air pockets.
one place i spoke to that does the tank coatings actually puts the tank in a jig that turns it for 24 hours so the coating is continually turned to get maximal coverage. i don't know how they prep the tank.
corking the filler from the inside is a good idea imho.
the main area for coverage is the bottom of the tank more than the top. some folks just capped the fuel pump opening and poured into the filler. Some spots on the inside top may have been missed, but water precipitate in gasoline will sink to the bottom.
Quote from: ducatiz on December 23, 2011, 08:40:26 AM
the issue raised by the maker was the interaction of the reducer with the nylon itself. i don't understand the specifics, but the rotomolding process includes some ingredients which outgass during the cure and form a layer on the surface. the outside surface is hand finished, treated (sanded down and sealed) then primed for paint. The inner surface is untouched, literally as is from the rotomold so the top layers of the nylon can have crap trapped. if you want to see evidence of this, look at the surface and see the trapped air pockets.
one place i spoke to that does the tank coatings actually puts the tank in a jig that turns it for 24 hours so the coating is continually turned to get maximal coverage. i don't know how they prep the tank.
corking the filler from the inside is a good idea imho.
the main area for coverage is the bottom of the tank more than the top. some folks just capped the fuel pump opening and poured into the filler. Some spots on the inside top may have been missed, but water precipitate in gasoline will sink to the bottom.
I don't know what coating stays liquid for 24 hours. That jig would be great for acid etching tanks for POR.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 23, 2011, 11:05:10 AM
I don't know what coating stays liquid for 24 hours. That jig would be great for acid etching tanks for POR.
I didn't mean they rotate it for 24 hours, that was bad editing. they turn it until it is set which is just a couple of hours and then moving air for 24.
Damn, this makes me worried as I just did the sf tank with a oz of thinner, I used lacquer/epoxy thinner, I didnt brush the inside of the tank to rough it up, and I only did one coat T.T
The only thing I would add is that the SF tank has a vent hole in the plastic by the gas cap that has to be cleared of epoxy for the breather hoses to work. I didnt know this and I was getting a huge vacuum till it was cleared. This also might be the be case with the new monsters... I was getting a vacuum sound with my 796 even though the hoses were ok. The amt of vacuum wasnt as much as the SF though.
i'll add a link to this thread in the other caswell tips/tricks thread.
Ok so all this thinner talk got me a little bit worried. So I started doing some digging and research. Based on my conversation w/ Caswell, they recommend (as mentioned in other people's postings) lacquer thinner or xylene for a thinning agent.
I found a site that shows chemical resistance of different solvents to different materials; one of them being nylon. Link below for reference
http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance (http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance)
I took an MSDS from google for a standard lacquer thinner and noticed its primarily a mix of hexane, toluene, acetone and methanol.
Checking compatibility w/ Nylon from the site above for each of these chemicals, it looks like most are decent. Methanol/ hexane have some issues w/ nylon and some of the others have ratings good to 72 degrees Fahrenheit. Looks like if you already used lacquer thinner, you're probably going to be OK.
That being said, xylene seems to be the way to go. Its got no compatibility issues with Nylon up to 120 degrees Fahrenheit.
Xylene meets Caswells requirements and requirements for nylon compatibility AND is pretty damn cheap.
Hope this helps others. This is probably the route I will end up going unless some of you pros out there see any problems with my logic. Comments are much appreciated.
Thanks
that's very useful
one additional point
get a wire brush and rough up the surfaces you can reach with it. one of those smallish parts brushes or even a round type.
Quote from: EEL on December 30, 2011, 11:18:24 AM
Ok so all this thinner talk got me a little bit worried. So I started doing some digging and research. Based on my conversation w/ Caswell, they recommend (as mentioned in other people's postings) lacquer thinner or xylene for a thinning agent.
I found a site that shows chemical resistance of different solvents to different materials; one of them being nylon. Link below for reference
http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance (http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance)
I took an MSDS from google for a standard lacquer thinner and noticed its primarily a mix of hexane, toluene, acetone and methanol.
Checking compatibility w/ Nylon from the site above for each of these chemicals, it looks like most are decent. Methanol/ hexane have some issues w/ nylon and some of the others have ratings good to 72 degrees Fahrenheit. Looks like if you already used lacquer thinner, you're probably going to be OK.
That being said, xylene seems to be the way to go. Its got no compatibility issues with Nylon up to 120 degrees Fahrenheit.
Xylene meets Caswells requirements and requirements for nylon compatibility AND is pretty damn cheap.
Hope this helps others. This is probably the route I will end up going unless some of you pros out there see any problems with my logic. Comments are much appreciated.
Thanks
Good info...
I wasn't worried. ;)
Quote from: ducatiz on December 22, 2011, 08:20:41 PM4. I can't stress how important temperature, humidity and motion are for this. Don't do it when the temp is under 70 and if the humidity is over 25-30%. You want the air a bit dry. Nylon sucks up ambient moisture and the rate of absorption increases with temperature and humidity.
How bad are the Caswells fumes? To achieve these conditions, I would need to line the tank indoors this time of year.
-Jeff
not too bad its epoxy. if you thin kit with a solvent like xylene then you get fumes
So follow up on my experience. Finished the work a couple of days ago. I ended up using xylene as I mentioned prior. The temperature was pretty cold outside so I heated up the garage with a space heater up to 70 degrees.
IF YOU USE XYLENE LIKE I DID. DONT USE 1 OZ FOR THINNING.
The stuff stayed liquid for a long long time (almost an hour and a half). I was getting a little worried this crap wasn't going to set but it did. I would recommend 1/2 oz with pure xylene as recommended by the manufacturer. Due to the thinning properties, I actually had a lot left over but, luckily, I had enough time to siphon off the excess from the bottom flange hole.
TAPE EVERYTHING ON THE TANK THATS CLEAR COATED. DONT BE LAZY AND SKIP THIS STEP. I wrapped1 inch around to the inside.
If you have a monster tank (Mine was an S2R 800), you wont be able to drain anything out of the gas filler hole. Its got a weird upside down speed bump style hump on the inside of the filler hole so material tends to pond around the filler hole instead of draining out If it is draining out, you probably have a lot left over inside. As mentioned earlier, I was able to siphon off the excess from the bottom flange using a turkey baster (and patience). Out of the 13 oz total put in (8 oz part A, 4 oz part B, 1 oz thinner), I was able to probably pull out a good 4-5 oz back out. Your results might vary if you have less thinning agent.
Other than the fact that my coat ended up looking like shiny glass its really hard to tell anything is even on there. This stuff has no tint what so ever.
Overall the project was a success. now to figure out what the hell I'm going to do with the other half of the unused sealer.
use it fir another coat
too late, tanks already getting retrofitted onto the bike by the dealer.
Has anyone tried using some sort of swab to mop the coating to ensure all surfaced are lined? I'm wondering if even something as simple as a piece of sponge on a coat hanger would improve coverage. Maybe mop the first coat then flow the second coat? Thoughts?
-Jeff
My experience was that it was very easy to coat. But I used 1 oz of xylene thinner. I took a peek after it had hardened and I didnt see one missed spot.
That being said, from my post above, mine was runny for a while longer than most.I attribute that to the xylene. I had no issues with coating in time. If you mix the thinner completely into part A before you put any of part b in, you'll get a consistent product. Shake it up in a sealed glass jar thats at least twice the volume of your final mixture. I used a cleaned out RAGU pasta sauce mason jar and shook the mixture for almost 3 minutes straight.
My Caswell's kit is on its way. Does it make sense to wipe the interior of a new virgin tank with alcohol or something before lining?
-Jeff
I dont think its worth it. You're not going to get that far in. I didnt even bother, but drywall screws are, in my opinion, better if you are going to do it. Just count how many go in and how many come out.
Quote from: jgrm1 on January 26, 2012, 06:47:35 PM
My Caswell's kit is on its way. Does it make sense to wipe the interior of a new virgin tank with alcohol or something before lining?
-Jeff
wash it out with a water based solvent. caswells sells a tank rinse which is good. don't rinse it with alcohol.
make sure to let it dry -- hair dryer on no heat for a few days.
I dunno if you really need to do a rinse on a virgin tank. It doesnt do any harm if you have the time. I did however jam a leaf blower through both openings for about 10 minutes to blow any crud out of the tank before I started
I am well into the preparation phase of my tank lining project of my virgin, never-seen-fuel tank. Unsatisfied with the amount of surface area I could hit with a brush, I ignored the sage advice on this forum and did the drywall screw thing to scuff up the interior surface to improve chances of Caswell's adhesion.
Of the 50 drywall screws that entered the tank, as of this moment, I have retrieved 47. The remaining three are being a bit stubborn. I was able to get the last couple to emerge (I was missing five) by warming the underside of the tank with a hair dryer to expand the interior enough to dislodge screws stuck in the side saddles of the tank. I'll continue working on it tonight before moving on to the washing phase.
Even though my tank is virgin, I think I will go ahead and wash out the tank with Dawn dish soap and water to remove the oils from my hand and forearm that have now spent a lot of time inside the tank. Plus, I'm sure the screws weren't squeaky clean.
Oh, after having a lot of time to study the complex shape of the interior of the tank, I am leaning toward mixing all the Caswell's, reducing it with 1 oz. of Xylene, and flooding the cavities with Caswell's in one big shot to improve the chances of 100% coverage. Thoughts?
-Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 22, 2012, 04:48:55 AM
Thoughts?
-Jeff
Toldja not to use the nails.. :-)
I would get one of those 100lb magnets from harbor freight and stick in in and see if that will do it. Don't let go of it..
I am leery of making the solution so reduced so it flows too easily. I think you will want a little bit of control in the process and too much liquidity = bad.
Also I think two coats is better than one thick one. You could even go as far as to coat once -- cure and then coat again and cure with the tank sitting opposite the 1st cure to make sure it doesn't settle during cure. That might be over kill. But if you're going to reduce it that much, then you'll definitely need to keep it moving.
I reduce that much...maybe more.
It assures coverage in one coat even if you have to 'work' it more.
YMMV
Quote from: ducpainter on February 22, 2012, 05:00:07 AM
I reduce that much...maybe more.
It assures coverage in one coat even if you have to 'work' it more.
YMMV
You don't think doing it in two coats would be better?
Quote from: ducatiz on February 22, 2012, 05:22:04 AM
You don't think doing it in two coats would be better?
I think it's unnecessary.
The product was designed to repair perforated steel tanks.
It's the consistency it is so it doesn't run out of the holes.
With a plastic tank coverage is more important, and it is far easier to assure complete coverage by reducing the product to a point that it flows easily.
As packaged, the stuff is virtually impossible to get it to flow over all surfaces inside a tank...I don't care how many coats you use.
It is true that you have to rotate the tank for a longer period of time to avoid 'pooling' if you reduce.
It makes sense to me that thinning and pouring the whole kit into the tank is the way to go. I'd rather have a tidal wave of product flowing over the islands and flooding the valleys. I plan to get comfortable in front of the TV with the tank and rotate it as long as necessary until it begins to set up.
But, I haven't gotten to that stage, so there's still time to convince me otherwise.
-Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 22, 2012, 05:52:37 AM
It makes sense to me that thinning and pouring the whole kit into the tank is the way to go. I'd rather have a tidal wave of product flowing over the islands and flooding the valleys. I plan to get comfortable in front of the TV with the tank and rotate it as long as necessary until it begins to set up.
But, I haven't gotten to that stage, so there's still time to convince me otherwise.
-Jeff
If you thin sufficiently...
you only need half.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 22, 2012, 05:35:29 AM
I think it's unnecessary.
The product was designed to repair perforated steel tanks.
It's the consistency it is so it doesn't run out of the holes.
With a plastic tank coverage is more important, and it is far easier to assure complete coverage by reducing the product to a point that it flows easily.
As packaged, the stuff is virtually impossible to get it to flow over all surfaces inside a tank...I don't care how many coats you use.
It is true that you have to rotate the tank for a longer period of time to avoid 'pooling' if you reduce.
excellent points, thanks
All 50 screws are now accounted for, the tank washed with Dawn, and is currently drying upside down with a hair dryer set on no heat blowing through the fuel flange opening. Next step, lining!
Can anyone tell me the distance between the centers of the frame pad screw heads measured across the bottom of the tank? I meant to measure this distance before washing the tank, so I could track swelling from the water and determine when I am finished drying.
Thanks,
Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 22, 2012, 08:20:59 PM
All 50 screws are now accounted for, the tank washed with Dawn, and is currently drying upside down with a hair dryer set on no heat blowing through the fuel flange opening. Next step, lining!
Can anyone tell me the distance between the centers of the frame pad screw heads measured across the bottom of the tank? I meant to measure this distance before washing the tank, so I could track swelling from the water and determine when I am finished drying.
Thanks,
Jeff
I measured off the holes, the rear ones
290mm center to center. That's off a tank that's never had gas in it.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 22, 2012, 08:39:40 PM
I measured off the holes, the rear ones
290mm center to center. That's off a tank that's never had gas in it.
Thanks. Do you agree that is the right dimension to let me know I am safe to line?
-Jeff
What is the best method for masking and plugging the fuel filler opening while lining? When I washed the tank, I rolled up a sock, wrapped it plastic wrap, and plugged the opening. It worked well, but I want to ensure I get maximum coverage with the Caswell's without interfering with the fuel fill door seal or latch.
What do you guys think about reinstalling the filler door, laying plastic wrap across the opening and latching the door shut over it? The plastic wrap would act like a condom and protect the filler door, latch and seal.
-Jeff
I have a #10 rubber stopper that fits the fuel opening. I think I'd avoid using the cap only because of the possibility of the latch lugs tearing the plastic wrap. Duct tape?
I made a plate out of plexi-glass for the pump flange, and seal it with automotive strip caulk. You only need three bolts spread around the circumference.
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 23, 2012, 05:06:13 AM
Thanks. Do you agree that is the right dimension to let me know I am safe to line?
-Jeff
I have two tanks on hand (well, three if you count the donor S4RS tank) and all of them measure about the same. ~292-295mm. the virgin tank reads about 292 and the used tank is 295 That is pretty close and I'd say some normal variation is likely. The rubber pads are adjustable and I think that's why. the used tank has been washed and dried and has sat up for the last 4 months.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 23, 2012, 05:18:40 AM
I have a #10 rubber stopper that fits the fuel opening. I think I'd avoid using the cap only because of the possibility of the latch lugs tearing the plastic wrap. Duct tape?
I made a plate out of plexi-glass for the pump flange, and seal it with automotive strip caulk. You only need three bolts spread around the circumference.
Did you put the stopper in from the outside or the inside? I used a #9 and reached in and stuffed it in the hole from the inside.
My plexiglass cover for the bottom had a #10 sized hole and I used that to pour and put a stopper in it to agitate.
I used cork material to make a gasket for the bottom and all 6 screws. One could probably use some of that adhesive foam seal. The coating isn't particularly liquid so it's not going to seek leaks aggressively like water would.
One more thing, I recommend lancing the "boils" on the interior of the tank.
If you look inside, you'll see air pockets in the surface. They have a VERY thin layer of material on top and if you coat without removing it, the coating is sitting on top of a fragile surface. I used a small exacto knife and cut some of that dome off so the coating would get inside the cavity. As far as I can tell they are only on the TOP inside surface.
You can't get all of them but try to get as many as you can. Even if you only puncture them and leave enough of a hole for the coating to get in it should be enough.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 23, 2012, 08:56:12 AM
snip
Did you put the stopper in from the outside or the inside? I used a #9 and reached in and stuffed it in the hole from the inside.
My plexiglass cover for the bottom had a #10 sized hole and I used that to pour and put a stopper in it to agitate.
I used cork material to make a gasket for the bottom and all 6 screws. One could probably use some of that adhesive foam seal. The coating isn't particularly liquid so it's not going to seek leaks aggressively like water would.
Outside.
I used to use the same system of blocking SBK tanks I use POR on and I've found the strip caulk to be effective for the POR chemicals, so I just stuck with it.
I bought some large diameter expanding plugs to get it done faster.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 23, 2012, 08:56:12 AMI used a #9 and reached in and stuffed it in the hole from the inside.
How did you reach inside the tank to remove the plug without disturbing the coating?
-Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 23, 2012, 09:51:56 AM
How did you reach inside the tank to remove the plug without disturbing the coating?
-Jeff
let it dry. Reach in with your fingernail or exacto and cut a little around the plug. i used the exacto first and then realized i could do it with a fingernail easier. you just need to make a small cut so you get a clean break.
if you have ham hock arms it won't be easy. i'm not small either and i can do it.
the plug is on the filler funnel which isn't nylon, it's something else (HDPE). pull it straight down and you get a clean break.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 23, 2012, 08:56:12 AM
I have two tanks on hand (well, three if you count the donor S4RS tank) and all of them measure about the same. ~292-295mm. the virgin tank reads about 292 and the used tank is 295 That is pretty close and I'd say some normal variation is likely. The rubber pads are adjustable and I think that's why. the used tank has been washed and dried and has sat up for the last 4 months.
Mine measured 286-287mm the day after I washed the tank. I guess my tank did not swell much from the quick cold water wash.
We have had unusually low humidity levels (30-50%) since yesterday and continuing through tomorrow. I plan to take advantage of the dry air and line my tank tomorrow or three days after washing.
-Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 24, 2012, 08:58:00 AM
Mine measured 286-287mm the day after I washed the tank. I guess my tank did not swell much from the quick cold water wash.
We have had unusually low humidity levels (30-50%) since yesterday and continuing through tomorrow. I plan to take advantage of the dry air and line my tank tomorrow or three days after washing.
-Jeff
Are you measuring the front or back holes? Centers?
I am surprised if there is that much variance, but I guess it's possible. The bumpers have about 5mm each lateral adjustment.
I measured center-to-center of the leading bolt heads then, for comparison, the trailing bolt heads. Leading bolts were 286mm and the trailing were 287. I was surprised, too after reading your above post, and triple checked my measurements. I used a seamstress tape to take the measurements. I have a metal scale in my office I will take home and verify. I'll post if I find a difference between the two measuring devices.
-Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 24, 2012, 12:39:11 PM
I measured center-to-center of the leading bolt heads then, for comparison, the trailing bolt heads. Leading bolts were 286mm and the trailing were 287. I was surprised, too after reading your above post, and triple checked my measurements. I used a seamstress tape to take the measurements. I have a metal scale in my office I will take home and verify. I'll post if I find a difference between the two measuring devices.
-Jeff
i used a small tape measure -- metal. i hooked the lip into one hole and ran it straight across. the lip fit the hole perfectly and centered.
the nylon material can absorb ambient moisture but i am going to assume this is a production variation rather than that. the frame bumpers are adjustable for a reason.
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 24, 2012, 12:39:11 PM
I measured center-to-center of the leading bolt heads then, for comparison, the trailing bolt heads. Leading bolts were 286mm and the trailing were 287. I was surprised, too after reading your above post, and triple checked my measurements. I used a seamstress tape to take the measurements. I have a metal scale in my office I will take home and verify. I'll post if I find a difference between the two measuring devices.
-Jeff
Dimensions confirmed.
-Jeff
My tank has joined the ranks of the lined! Below is a recap of what worked well and what I would do differently in hopes of assisting those that follow. I took advantage of several low humidity days during this process, but did the entire process in my house, so I could control temperatures. I followed a combination of instruction from Caswell's, advice from this forum, and common sense to come up with my process. I am confident that if the lining is not successful, it will not be because of anything I did or did not do.
Preparation
As mentioned in an above post, I was unsatisfied with the limited areas I could reach inside the tank with either a nylon or metal bristle brush, so I tried the drywall screw method to rough up the surface of the interior of the tank. I put 50 drywall screws in the tank (dry) then shook the tank in all directions. I later noticed that the Caswell's instructions suggest swishing the screws around with the soapy water. If doing this again, I would either cut the heads off the screws or pound them flat because only 43 dropped out initially. It took a combination of a magnet on a string (which itself got stuck twice), a magnet on a bendable rod, a coat hanger, and a hair dryer to remove those last seven screws that wedged at the trailing sides of the tank.
After finally getting all the screws out, I washed the tank out with Dawn dishwashing detergent and cold water. After draining, I dried the tank by turning it upside down and pointing a hair dryer - set on no heat â€" into the fuel flange opening for three days.
When it came time to line the tank, I plugged the fuel filler opening with a 1.75†X 1.50†rubber plug I found in the assorted hardware drawers at Home Depot. I covered the fuel flange opening with a Plexiglas panel I cut and drilled to match the fuel flange bolt pattern and sealed it with an old gasket. I covered the entire tank with 3M/Scotch Blue Painter's Tape (2â€) to protect the painted surfaces. As careful as I was, you will get Caswell's on your fingers that you do not want to transfer to the paint.
Mixing
To mix the Caswell's, I picked up a paint mixer, from Wal-Mart, to go on my electric hand drill. I mixed the epoxy and Xylene in a Tupperware plastic water pitcher, which was the perfect size to hold the kit, mix without splashing, and pour the epoxy into the tank through the fuel flange opening.
Lining
I elected to use the entire kit to shock and awe all the nooks and crannies of the tank. I added 1 oz. of Xylene to thin the epoxy, so it would flow better. After pouring the mixture into the tank and applying the fuel flange gasket and Plexiglas cover, I sat on the floor with the tank rotating it through a pattern I felt gave the best coverage. I rotated the tank, repeating the pattern, for two hours while the epoxy started to set up.
I, on the other hand, hydrated with a couple of Sam Adams Boston Lagers and monitored the residue in the water pitcher to see how the epoxy was setting up. While rotating the tank, I used a plain drinking straw to periodically blow through the vent and overflow tube nipples on the bottom of the tank to ensure the lines remained open. I let the entire kit set up in the tank in hopes of getting complete coverage. Yes, I realize I reduced the capacity of my tank by 24 oz.
Draining / Drying
Convinced I was not going to see any further coverage from the little remaining flowing material, I removed the Plexiglas panel and propped the tank over a pan with the fuel flange opening level to allow any remaining material to drain. I saw only three drips in the pan. As the lining continued to dry, I periodically checked the fuel filler and flange openings for stalactites, which I removed with my pocket knife blade or smoothed over with my finger.
I am beginning my 7500 mile service today, the day after lining the tank, so the lining will have seen plenty of cure time before I put fuel back into the tank.
-Jeff
This seems complicated. Can someone post a step by step with pics or a vid? ? I didn't know the replacement tank was the same as the old tank until I got to the dealership (yesterday) so my tank has been exposed to fuel; is that going to be a problem? What exact casewell coating did you guys use? From where did u get it and the thinner from?
Is this the stuff I will need? http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)
It's really not complicated. You simply want to take your time. My post above is my version of a step-by-step. Someone posted photos on another link. Some have lined their tank after being exposed to fuel with good results. Yes, that is the right Caswell's.
-Jeff
Jgrm1 you mentioned that you could not reach inside the tank with a nylon or metal bristle and I've heard that the drywall screws can get stuck in the tank.
Also if this is the best method to deal with the situation why didn't the dealership inform me?? I understand its not allowed by Ducati as a compay but can't they at least tell the dealers to pass on the information about the coating to customers along with the new tank? Why did they fill it with fuel before I had a chance to coat it?
What if somone doesn't come on this forum and then his tank swells later on? ? Doesn't seem logical/fair but I guess this "underground" information is the solution... .
I'm still reading that long thread but from what I've gathered Ducati is replacing tanks multiple times. So if they are going to keep replacing it why should I go through the hassle of coating it? Seems easier to just get yet another one down the road. Its quite possible that this is perhaps Ducati attempting to see if customers will just shut up and go away by giving them defective but new tanks that just lost their value. Maybe they are trying to buy time to come up with a better solution to this safety issue? So far, the lawyers are getting the best end of the deal, then Ducati, then the customers.. [coffee]
Quote from: uclabiker06 on February 26, 2012, 06:54:52 PM
What if somone doesn't come on this forum and then his tank swells later on? ? Doesn't seem logical/fair but I guess this "underground" information is the solution... .
I'm still reading that long thread but from what I've gathered Ducati is replacing tanks multiple times. So if they are going to keep replacing it why should I go through the hassle of coating it? Seems easier to just get yet another one down the road. Its quite possible that this is perhaps Ducati attempting to see if customers will just shut up and go away by giving them defective but new tanks that just lost a lot of their value. Maybe there is a statute of limitation that they want to run out? Maybe they have a little deal going on with Casewell under the table? The lawyers are getting the best end of the deal, then Ducati, then the customers.. [coffee]
Ducati will no longer automatically replace tanks. The settlement of the lawsuit provides for some tank replacement of painted models but not all. The standard for replacing a tank is higher.
You're a little late to the conversation so I will just say try to read the terms of the settlement and then keep up with this and other Caswell threads.
As far as what happens if someone uses the coating and kaplooey? Shit happens. Ducati tested the coating and got bad results. The test was likely invalid from the get-go: there is no information as to how they prepared the tank or the solution or why they only tested one tank and used only 100% ethanol for the test.
There are better epoxy formulations out there (that are designed to work with ethanol) but Caswells seems to be working fine when the tank is prepped correctly.
As far as anything else, unless you objected to the lawsuit, you're done.
I object! I didn't know they tested some sort of coating and got "bad" results. Wont this keep going if a lot of the class objects? How can I object anyways? what do I do?
Quote from: uclabiker06 on February 26, 2012, 07:48:33 PM
I object! I didn't know they tested some sort of coating and got "bad" results. Wont this keep going if a lot of the class objects? How can I object anyways? what do I do?
its done. time to object is finished.
I just don't understand if the tests were invalid then why didn't more people object? Eh whatever...as they say it is what it is. Thanks for the reply.
Here's the bottom line, when I read the class action lawsuit documentation. It says that owners are entitled to a replacement tank if the bike qualifies and the expansion is visible/measurable. The way I read it is this gives ducati a clear cut line in the sand that says that they are not obligated to replace tanks once they have already done it from here on. Nowhere in the class action lawsuit does it say that Ducati is responsible to replace faulty tanks for eternity.
So, you can approach it this way. You can try the caswell and hope it works OR your can use the standard replacement tank and cross your fingers that Ducati feels pity for you 3-4 years down the road when this issue pops up again and gives you another freebie tank (even though they are not legally obligated to do so)
I chose to spend 50 dollars now and not sit around and hope for a business to choose customer service over profit. If my caswells fails. 'll probably just end up getting a CA-Cycleworks tank in the future and call it a day. In the end the 50 dollars I spent on Caswell spread over 4 years is a risk I'm willing to take. I'll make it up by having 3 less burritos a year for lunch.
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 24, 2012, 04:43:05 PM
Dimensions confirmed.
-Jeff
I measured a metal tank off a 2003 EFI model.
Hole to hole center is 286mm.
Looks like my plastic tanks are swollen a tad..
I'm curious about the tank replacement and I'm hoping I can get a response here since this is a pretty active thread. I apologize if I should post this somewhere else. I dropped my bike off at the dealership today to get some new tires and have them look at the expanded tank issue. I just purchased the bike on Saturday with 3300 miles and I've got to say I'm a little put off by a rear tire on the bike that was worn down to the wear bars and an expanded tank that I seem to be getting pushback on. [bang] I was told today by the service manager that they repair is to put a new bracket on the bike. I asked what the bracket does and was told it is to provide a wider support base to which I responded that the problem is the tank is elongated...not widened. The response was the bracket is the fix at which point I said it wasn't and that the latch on the front of the tank doesn't move an inch before being stopped by the ignition. Finally the service manager indicated that they have to put the bracket on first and then take pictures of the tank. Once that has been done they will get the Ducati rep involved to decide if a replacement is in order. Is this similar to everyone elses experience? Literally, the latch on the front of the tank may move an inch...you can't really move the tank by loostening the latch. [thumbsdown] Just curious if I'm going to run into an issue here. Has anyone else been denied a new tank? Thanks for the help.
Quote from: Gadgetech on February 28, 2012, 05:27:59 PM
I'm curious about the tank replacement and I'm hoping I can get a response here since this is a pretty active thread. I apologize if I should post this somewhere else. I dropped my bike off at the dealership today to get some new tires and have them look at the expanded tank issue. I just purchased the bike on Saturday with 3300 miles and I've got to say I'm a little put off by a rear tire on the bike that was worn down to the wear bars and an expanded tank that I seem to be getting pushback on. [bang] I was told today by the service manager that they repair is to put a new bracket on the bike. I asked what the bracket does and was told it is to provide a wider support base to which I responded that the problem is the tank is elongated...not widened. The response was the bracket is the fix at which point I said it wasn't and that the latch on the front of the tank doesn't move an inch before being stopped by the ignition. Finally the service manager indicated that they have to put the bracket on first and then take pictures of the tank. Once that has been done they will get the Ducati rep involved to decide if a replacement is in order. Is this similar to everyone elses experience? Literally, the latch on the front of the tank may move an inch...you can't really move the tank by loostening the latch. [thumbsdown] Just curious if I'm going to run into an issue here. Has anyone else been denied a new tank? Thanks for the help.
You should read the tank threads in the General Forum.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0)
Quote from: ducpainter on February 28, 2012, 05:34:25 PM
You should read the tank threads in the General Forum.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0)
Thanks for the re-direct. What I'm reading smells like a steaming, stinking pile of excrement. I noticed the bump stops had been adjusted on my bike to the point I can't lock the bars. It sucks to have a new relationship with a dealer affected by something out of their hands.
Quote from: Gadgetech on February 28, 2012, 06:09:49 PM
Thanks for the re-direct. What I'm reading smells like a steaming, stinking pile of excrement. I noticed the bump stops had been adjusted on my bike to the point I can't lock the bars. It sucks to have a new relationship with a dealer affected by something out of their hands.
The only one that made out was the attorney for the class.
Your dealer is probably a good guy.
I had this problem, if you cant lock the bars because of expansion, its time to push your dealer to get you a new tank. I replaced my tank 2 months ago. My dealer was able to submit a request to Ducati w/ some photos and get Ducati North America to approve their request thru the oracle database in 5 business days.
It was a very seamless process. Considering my tank was in the dealer a week after approval. I was quite happy with the overall response.
Crap! After washing the bike, I opened the fuel filler and found a lot water pooled up under the cap. My drain line had pinched the last time I had the tank up. I'm glad I lined my tank to keep that water away from the thirsty nylon. Check your drain lines....
-Jeff
Quote from: jgrm1 on February 26, 2012, 08:46:15 AM
Convinced I was not going to see any further coverage from the little remaining flowing material, I removed the Plexiglas panel and propped the tank over a pan with the fuel flange opening level to allow any remaining material to drain. I saw only three drips in the pan. As the lining continued to dry, I periodically checked the fuel filler and flange openings for stalactites, which I removed with my pocket knife blade or smoothed over with my finger.
How long did it take from pouring the caswell to removing the plexiglass?
Any suggestions on how to handle the fuel flange section of the tank? My guess is that if not properly coated, this section of the tank will be exposed to ethanol. I am going to go with the plexiglass route to cover the fuel flange and monitor the caswell coating, as a few of you here have done. However, wouldn't the caswell stick to the plexiglass? If I remove the plexiglass, wouldn't it pull on the coating inside and damage the nice seal that was just formed? Or do I pull off the plexiglass when the coating is still flowy/wet?
Quote from: Betlog on May 21, 2012, 11:25:14 AM
Any suggestions on how to handle the fuel flange section of the tank? My guess is that if not properly coated, this section of the tank will be exposed to ethanol. I am going to go with the plexiglass route to cover the fuel flange and monitor the caswell coating, as a few of you here have done. However, wouldn't the caswell stick to the plexiglass? If I remove the plexiglass, wouldn't it pull on the coating inside and damage the nice seal that was just formed? Or do I pull off the plexiglass when the coating is still flowy/wet?
i removed the plexiglass before it was fully set. the edge was a bit stretched and "ragged" but when it dried was harder and I just trimmed it a bit before putting the flange back on.
i also put a stopped into the filler (from the inside) which I twisted off while the coating was still "tacky".
Quote from: ducatiz on May 21, 2012, 11:28:15 AM
i removed the plexiglass before it was fully set. the edge was a bit stretched and "ragged" but when it dried was harder and I just trimmed it a bit before putting the flange back on.
i also put a stopped into the filler (from the inside) which I twisted off while the coating was still "tacky".
Thanks. What did you use to trim? Was it tough or easy to trim?
Quote from: Betlog on May 21, 2012, 12:09:21 PM
Thanks. What did you use to trim? Was it tough or easy to trim?
xacto knife. cut like plastic.
I hope Ducati doesn't make new bikes with tanks of this same material...?
Quote from: C11Gidasi on May 23, 2012, 09:36:22 PM
I hope Ducati doesn't make new bikes with tanks of this same material...?
Does anyone know if they still do??! Would be tragic if they do.
Almost all of the bikes with covered tanks (Monsters etc) are using the same material.
IT is just too cheap and too easy to use not to use it.
The covered tanks do not show the expansion as much.
Well that certainly doesn't make me feel good about buying a Ducati in the future :(
What are they thinking????? :(
Quote from: C11Gidasi on June 20, 2012, 09:47:51 AM
Well that certainly doesn't make me feel good about buying a Ducati in the future :(
What are they thinking????? :(
Like I said, the new covered tank design hides the expansion of the tank. They can easily make the tank smaller to allow for more expansion and possible redesign the fuel pump flange so it is reinforced and can't leak.
Quote from: ducatiz on June 20, 2012, 09:49:31 AM
Like I said, the new covered tank design hides the expansion of the tank. They can easily make the tank smaller to allow for more expansion and possible redesign the fuel pump flange so it is reinforced and can't leak.
Yes, but still. Doesn't that sound like fixing the symptoms and not the problem? That sounds like bad engineering at the school I went to.
Quote from: C11Gidasi on June 20, 2012, 10:04:15 AM
Yes, but still. Doesn't that sound like fixing the symptoms and not the problem? That sounds like bad engineering at the school I went to.
well, engineering is only half of the picture, the bean counters have to have a say too.
i mean.. the camel was designed by engineers in committee you know.. works great... looks like shit.
The business climate in Italy being what it is...
I wonder if there are contractual issues between Ducati and Acerbis?
When thinning, I am told that I can use lacquer thinner instead of Xylene. Do you guys think there's any advantage to Xylene over lacquer thinner?
Quote from: Betlog on August 23, 2012, 10:43:12 AM
When thinning, I am told that I can use lacquer thinner instead of Xylene. Do you guys think there's any advantage to Xylene over lacquer thinner?
Yes. Xylene is compatible with PA6 nylon. "Lacquer thinner" is not a specific substance, it can be any number of solvents, some of which may not be compatible with PA6.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 23, 2012, 11:00:20 AM
Yes. Xylene is compatible with PA6 nylon. "Lacquer thinner" is not a specific substance, it can be any number of solvents, some of which may not be compatible with PA6.
Thanks. I ended up using Xylene.
So I have the tank curing but don't know what to do with the excess Caswell that has started down the fuel flange when I drained the tank. My plan is to trim it with an Exacto knife but am not sure how far to go. Did you guys trim it flush to the plastic in the gas tank? (This way, the fuel flange will sit in perfectly with the fuel flange gasket and fuel filter bits when it's re-installed.) My other option was to trim it flush, then coat a bit of Caswell at the bottom to make sure that if gas does go past the gasket, it would not leak into the plastic. (The problem with this is that the gasket and fuel filter bits may not sit flush when it's re-installed.) Thoughts?
Quote from: ducatiz on August 23, 2012, 11:00:20 AM
Yes. Xylene is compatible with PA6 nylon. "Lacquer thinner" is not a specific substance, it can be any number of solvents, some of which may not be compatible with PA6.
Do you have a list of solvents that are known to be incompatible?
Lacquer thinner is all organic solvents and PA6 is touted to have excellent resistance to all organic solvents.
I would think that water content of cheap thinner would be more of a concern.
FTR, I use urethane grade reducer to thin the Caswell because it specifically contains no water.
I have a chemical compatibility chart.. i can post the link later. Caswell either read my thread or figured it out too as its named in their instructions for reducing their stuff.
Here is the online version. Select materials=Nylon and ALL for Chemicals
http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance (http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance)
Notably, Ethanol is resistant up to 72 deg F...
Quote from: Betlog on September 05, 2012, 08:57:31 AM
So I have the tank curing but don't know what to do with the excess Caswell that has started down the fuel flange when I drained the tank. My plan is to trim it with an Exacto knife but am not sure how far to go. Did you guys trim it flush to the plastic in the gas tank? (This way, the fuel flange will sit in perfectly with the fuel flange gasket and fuel filter bits when it's re-installed.) My other option was to trim it flush, then coat a bit of Caswell at the bottom to make sure that if gas does go past the gasket, it would not leak into the plastic. (The problem with this is that the gasket and fuel filter bits may not sit flush when it's re-installed.) Thoughts?
Cut a small line and use a plastic scraper. You can sand it too. Small deviation is OK. There is a fat o ring there. Grease up the oring before install.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 05, 2012, 12:21:07 PM
Cut a small line and use a plastic scraper. You can sand it too. Small deviation is OK. There is a fat o ring there. Grease up the oring before install.
Thanks ducatiz. Where do you cut the line? What I'm getting from your post is that it is fine to just cut out the excess and make the bottom that mates to the gasket and fuel filter bits flush. No need to re-apply the coating at the bottom of the tank. Is that correct? Also, what grease should I use?
Quote from: Betlog on September 05, 2012, 01:50:47 PM
Thanks ducatiz. Where do you cut the line? What I'm getting from your post is that it is fine to just cut out the excess and make the bottom that mates to the gasket and fuel filter bits flush. No need to re-apply the coating at the bottom of the tank. Is that correct? Also, what grease should I use?
I cut the line right at the corner. You just want to make a score so when you scrape it doesn't chase into the inside of the tank.
Any gasoline resistant grease compatible with rubber.. (LOL).. I have a tub of this stuff called Krytox which IIRC is a silicone grease specifically for Orings. You don't need much, you are just lubing the oring so it grabs and seals. You may not even need it. You can probably use brake assembly grease which is a silicone grease.
Did you guys also coat the fuel filler area - both inside the tank and what is visible from the fuel door?
Quote from: Betlog on September 06, 2012, 06:54:47 PM
Did you guys also coat the fuel filler area - both inside the tank and what is visible from the fuel door?
I use a rubber stopper that fits the filler hole almost exactly (and make sure to plug the overflow hole).
that prevents the coating from getting to the exposed part of the filler, but it coats the inside part just as any other part of the tank.
The filler nozzle isn't nylon. I believe it is HDPE which will present a problem with adhesion over time. I try to scrape the coating away from it.