Well...buddyboy managed to break the engine case on the 696 where the kickstand bolt threads in.
Just throwing this up here in hopes that someone maybe has a clever idea of how to fix this.
I have a TIG welder, but am leery of welding to the engine case with all the sensors it has on it.
JB weld was also suggested but I highly doubt it will hold in such a stressed point.
Thanks for any help!
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f215/instaphd/91a60eb3.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f215/instaphd/f6a95737.jpg)
I'm no welder buy if imagine they if you disconnected everything that the electricity could flow through then you'd safe - easy / safe to remove the engine probably a thirds would make it 100% safe.
Chemical metal as we call it won't do that kind of job I do know that much ;)
I'd say minimum pull the engine... at least then you would have good access.
to do properly split the cases, and machine the finished product flat.
Ouch, I have not pulled an engine out before...
I think JB Weld, a Time-Sert, and adequate curing time and you should be okay.
Mind if I ask how this happened?
I saw this happen to a guy during shipping. the packers put the bike on the kickstand in the crate next to a couch [bang]
insurance totalled the bike.
Hard to tell from the photo, but if the remaining area in the case is deep enough I think Buckethead's idea should work, the JB weld would then be a free form washer. Some folks think three full threads are enough. I prefer at least the diameter of the bolt, in other words. if it is an 8 mm. bolt, at least 8 mm. depth, which also happens to be the shortest helicoil available. Time Serts, IMO, are better but come in longer lengths.
Quote from: howie on April 06, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
Hard to tell from the photo, but if the remaining area in the case is deep enough I think Buckethead's idea should work, the JB weld would then be a free form washer. Some folks think three full threads are enough. I prefer at least the diameter of the bolt, in other words. if it is an 8 mm. bolt, at least 8 mm. depth, which also happens to be the shortest helicoil available. Time Serts, IMO, are better but come in longer lengths.
also there are two length of bolts used on the side stand. maybe use the longer one instead off the short one usually at that location. but be sure to alo use a longer one in the back hole as well. so don't swap them. get a new longer one
Whoa! A glimmer a hope for JB weld!
I know this is a scary situation, I also have seen insurance total bikes for this reason.
I don't know exactly how the damage occured, but the ole 696 has seen more crash action than either of the other two bikes here. One day, buddyboy came by and I noticed the 696 was leaned over real far when on the kickstand. I looked at it and the bolt was completely missing. We got another bolt of the same size and it did work, but would not stay torqued after a few rides.
Finally one day buddy came by and the bolt and the chunk of case were gone.
I don't usually ride the 696, so I don't have too much more detail than that.
The 696 is in the house for its valve adjust so I've got some time to think about how to repair the case and then to execute the repair.
I do like the idea of very cured JB weld and a Time-sert/heli-coil.
I would estimate there is about 8mm of depth of threads still there.
Quote from: Raux on April 07, 2012, 02:21:52 AM
also there are two length of bolts used on the side stand. maybe use the longer one instead off the short one usually at that location.
Can you elaborate? I noticed the stock bolt was short and did not utilize even close to all the threads.
Also, the other bolted section of the kickstand toward the rear seems to pivot on the swingarm bolt. On my 696, the kickstand can pivot freely, should it be tight? I tried to tighten, but the rear kickstand bolt was already very tight.
I will get a chance to mess with the 696 today and will snap some more pics.
Thanks so much for the input ya'll.
If you look at the parts catalog. you'll see the front and back bolts have different part numbers. get the back one. When i get home i'll check the tq for the bolts
No need to remove the engine or split the cases.
Obviously, that would be the absolute best fix, but that's a *ton* of work.
Weld it up, carefully file it flat to the other bosses, drill and tap for a TimeSert, install TimeSert.
Disconnect the ECU, gauges and battery prior to welding.
I'm pretty sure all of the 696's are the new thinwall cases, lucky it didn't window the case.
Quote from: Speeddog on April 07, 2012, 12:06:16 PM
No need to remove the engine or split the cases.
Obviously, that would be the absolute best fix, but that's a *ton* of work.
Weld it up, carefully file it flat to the other bosses, drill and tap for a TimeSert, install TimeSert.
Disconnect the ECU, gauges and battery prior to welding.
I'm pretty sure all of the 696's are the new thinwall cases, lucky it didn't window the case.
I'm not sure how sensitive the Siemens electronics are...
but on some automotive systems, Saab in particular, it's necessary to remove ecu's from the car as the voltage can back in through any ground.
Worth considering.
Aside from disconnecting sensors and completely removing the ECU, are there any other things to worry about when welding on the case?
If not, that may be an option.
Quote from: WetDuc on April 07, 2012, 02:36:58 PM
Aside from disconnecting sensors and completely removing the ECU, are there any other things to worry about when welding on the case?
If not, that may be an option.
It's a casting and may have impurities from that process or have oil in it.
Do you have any experience welding cast aluminum?
Preheat will help.
I have never welded cast aluminum. Are there any tips you could advise?
I am most inclined, though, to try the chemical weld first.
Quote from: WetDuc on April 07, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
I have never welded cast aluminum. Are there any tips you could advise?
I am most inclined, though, to try the chemical weld first.
I'd advise you don't learn on your rider. ;)
If the jbweld repair fails you can go back to the welding route.
Welding aluminum...plate or cast...is somewhat of an art.
I know the theory, but don't have the experience/talent.
My rider is the DS. We will try the chemweld and see how it goes. Monday is go-day.
My welder is a super hi tech kind of guy. Gets classic parts from all over the country to restore with some strange alloys. He usually takes a piece of the metal and sends it out for analysis. Then, if he hasnt been there before, a consultation with Miller or one of the welding machine companies will recommend the correct rod and procedure. Aluminum alloys vary considerably and often crack on cooling. Preheat and slow cool are usually required.
I hate to go back on my advice, but if Speeddog says weld it then weld it.
The 696 is getting its valve adjustment and a proper cleaning. Freaking thing was slimebag hell.
I will update on what we do. Right now, I am leaning towards at least just trying the JB.
Any chance he was turning the bike on the sidestand? I know some people do that. Sometimes you're good, sometimes you end up with a broken case...
No, he wasn't turning the bike on the kickstand.
The 696 has been rubber side up quite a few times, I think the damage occured from those instances of sadness and road rash.
why is he using the kickstand on the track?
This isn't a track bike, just a city killer.
Quote from: WetDuc on April 10, 2012, 10:50:16 AM
This isn't a track bike, just a city killer.
sorry you keep saying "my rider" didn't realize you meant 'customer'
Not a customer, just a friend.
I got the HeliCoils and JB and we will give it a go this week. I will report back on whether or not it works.
Thanks everyone for the help so far.
It looks like the sidestand mounting bracket is like from the 916 family SBK. If you can use one from legacy monsters, they use the other two holes...
I have tig welded a cast engine case before and had a really hard time with it. First the cast aluminum soaks in the oil so no matter how clean you think it is it will come out as soon as you arc. so pre heat with a torch and clean with soap to remove oil. Also try looking up a specialized cleaner for this purpose, not sure if it exists but if it does it will save you some head ache.
Quote from: howie on April 06, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
...Some folks think three full threads are enough. I prefer at least the diameter of the bolt, in other words. if it is an 8 mm. bolt, at least 8 mm. depth, which also happens to be the shortest helicoil available. Time Serts, IMO, are better but come in longer lengths.
Howie there's some sort of rule of thumb that if you have three threads fully engaged you have the full strength of the fastener and you don't gain any more joint strength by having more threads engaged - but that applies to steel fasteners and steel threads, not cast aluminum threads.
Quote from: wetduck
I got the HeliCoils and JB and we will give it a go this week. I will report back on whether or not it works.
Thanks everyone for the help so far.
Don't mean to sound like a smartass but there's also a rule of thumb that if it's worth doing it's worth doing right. If the glue fails you are going to have another project on your hands cleaning it all out in order to weld it. JB Weld has iron powder in it and even a small amount left in the weld area will contaminate your aluminum weld. Don't know if a possible future resale is in the equation but a glued together engine case is not exactly a selling point. If it were mine I'd just have it welded and be done with it.
Bob
...he never reported back.
I loaned my Monster to a friend a few years back. I was pulling wheelies on my Speedy all over the place so he gave it a try on the Monster. Looped the shiite out of it, broke the same kickstand mount this guy did. I had mine professionally welded in the frame. Held up ever since.
Doh, I didn't realize I was replying to an ancient thread. Won't be the first or last time... [laugh]
He was last active late Feb (I checked) 8).
I like to know the outcome of tech threads, then we all learn something.