I've been slowly taking stuff off my '00 M750 for the past week or so and getting a feel for what's what with regard to doing the valves. I've read all the threads, checked the Pro Italia vid, the Ducati suite vid, and read the Haynes, LT Synder and the factory shop manual on the process. I did a "dry" run yesterday, with the belts still on just to get the feel of finding TDC and then doing loaded/unloaded measuring. A few questions, 1. does it matter which cylinder you begin on. 2. I'm having a tough time getting a good look into the horizontal (both exhaust/intake and find the oil galley to plug), will removing the front wheel help? 3. Will the measurements change substantially when I remove the belts?
As always, thanks in advance.
You better fully understand timing if you're taking off belts buddy.
Timing marks are for horizontal Cylinder TDC but you cant feel TDC once your belts are off because your valves should be fixed when you move your crank.
Four points of check for timing
1) Horizontal Cam Gear Pulley Tick Mark
2) Vertical Cam Gear Pulley Tick Mark
3) Double pulley between Tick Mark
4) Dots on Flywheel
Oil galleys are on the exhaust side of both cylinders.
Retry the wording of your questions...
Quote from: EEL on April 26, 2012, 07:59:11 PM
You better fully understand timing if you're taking off belts buddy.
Timing marks are for horizontal Cylinder TDC but you cant feel TDC once your belts are off because your valves should be fixed when you move your crank.
Four points of check for timing
1) Horizontal Cam Gear Pulley Tick Mark
2) Vertical Cam Gear Pulley Tick Mark
3) Double pulley between Tick Mark
4) Dots on Flywheel
Oil galleys are on the exhaust side of both cylinders.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I plan on removing the belts when I do this, this w/e. What confused me was since the timing marks are for the horiz. should I start with the vertical, go to TDC for it, remove the belts, do that cyclinder and then put belts back on. Then wash, rinse, repeat for the horizontal.
Are you saying the galleys are towards the exhaust side of both the intake and exhaust, because I've plug both in the vertical already.
Quote from: WetDuc on April 26, 2012, 08:13:38 PM
Retry the wording of your questions...
Sorry, what part(s) are you having trouble parsing.
Quote from: bdfinally on April 26, 2012, 03:56:09 PM
1. does it matter which cylinder you begin on. I don't think so.
2. I'm having a tough time getting a good look into the horizontal (both exhaust/intake and find the oil galley to plug), will removing the front wheel help?
You only need to plug the vertical cylinder intake...maybe the horizontal intake, too. Use a flashlight. I don't massively worry about plugging the horizontal, but I am really careful with the half rings and opener shims. Be good with the magnetic picker upper and use a closer rocker arm wedge. There is no substitute for the wedge IMO, perfect tool for the job. Half rings go flying when they are halfway off and your screwdriver slips off the rocker arm and snaps up. Clear plastic wrap is useful to make a little cover around the bottom shim stack while you do work. Keeps crap from going into the galley. I don't remove the front wheel, but it would make more room to get in there. I found two positions I can get into that give me leverage and where I can see, kinda laying down halfway on the side.
3. Will the measurements change substantially when I remove the belts?
I don't think so if you are correctly finding TDC.
Not confusing questions to answer.
Sorry for my previous comment, I had just finished doing my valve adjustments and I think I saw your questions and had a million responses going through my mind because my hands were still greasy.
The galleys are only on the exhaust side. You should see them when you open up the valve covers.
As for TDC. Its important for resetting timing when your done but as you probably already know, its also important for measuring your clearances. Before you take your belts off, mark the vertical cam gear and the outside housing of the belt enclosure (the part thats connnected to the motor) with a tick mark of nail polish so you can establish your TDC location. Since the TDC tick marks are related to the horizontal timing, you'll need these to ensure your measuring at the right valve position for the vertical cam once your belts are off.
Chris from CA cycle works does a good job at showing how to mark the belts to make sure the new belts go back on correct. I replaced belts a couple times with no issues before I saw this and started doing it. Watch the CA belt video on youtube for the 2V 1000DS.
It really is all very simple if you have done the research that you listed you should have no issue. Pull the pieces to get to the inspection covers. Find TDC on the horizontal cyl. TDC mark in the inspection hole and the pulley dots should line up. loosen tensioners, remove belts, rotate cams to find the slack point in for each valve. check clearances. You only need to worry about the oil holes if you pull closers and worst case use a little mirror or look at a photo online.
These were my notes from my first service I have learned a lot since then but they might help.
http://620monster6kservice.blogspot.com/ (http://620monster6kservice.blogspot.com/)
One more thing to add is the reason TDC is important is because you will want to turn the motor with the belts off to bring the piston up on the cyl that you are taking closers off of so the valve can't fall in. So making sure that you can find TDC is important so you can do it before you install new belts. But TDC with the marks lined up is easy to find. Knowing to move the piston so you don't drop a valve is the real tip. That way you don't need forceps or rubber bands to try and hold it up.
Post back if you need to adjust any closers and people can give you more tips.
Quote from: K3V1N on April 27, 2012, 06:56:38 AM
Chris from CA cycle works does a good job at showing how to mark the belts to make sure the new belts go back on correct. I replaced belts a couple times with no issues before I saw this and started doing it. Watch the CA belt video on youtube for the 2V 1000DS.
It really is all very simple if you have done the research that you listed you should have no issue. Pull the pieces to get to the inspection covers. Find TDC on the horizontal cyl. TDC mark in the inspection hole and the pulley dots should line up. loosen tensioners, remove belts, rotate cams to find the slack point in for each valve. check clearances. You only need to worry about the oil holes if you pull closers and worst case use a little mirror or look at a photo online.
These were my notes from my first service I have learned a lot since then but they might help.
http://620monster6kservice.blogspot.com/ (http://620monster6kservice.blogspot.com/)
Yeah. I've gone through your thread, Sealander, Dirt Monster, Nomad and a couple from TOB a few times. Removing the belts is what kept hanging me up (and gettting my big coconut in to see the horizontal ;D) Appreciate the input!
oh and one of other thing, someone please tell me a micrometer with an .025 diameter shaft is going to work, because both the shars and mitutoyo ones I have are that size.
edit to add: nevermind, I've got 7mm valves, right?
'00 M750 is 8mm valves, so your micrometers are fine for the opener shims.
Best to buy/beg/borrow/steal a closer measuring tool.
Bought one from EMS a year ago. ;D
Someone pointed out to me, for the range of tolerances.
for the openers, closer to the larger end of the tolerance is better ie, .010-.015 should be .015 target
for the closers, closer to the smaller end of the tolerance is better, ie. .000-.010 should be .000 target
I had enough time this morning to mark my pulleys for vertical TDC and double check all my findings on TDC for the horiz. w/belt timing marks, before some rain set in (yes, I'm doing it outside on the sidewalk.)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/vert-tdc-indexmark1.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/vert-tdc-indexmark2.jpg)
blue marks are for vertical cyclinder, what looks white is actually gold and for the horizontal.
I found galleys in both the intake and exhaust sides of the vertical. Plugged those with M6 bolts.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/galleyplug-vert-intake.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/galleyplug-vert-exhaust.jpg)
Found a galley on the exhaust side of the horizontal. It appears a series of "tunnels" in the bottom of the intake side supply oil to the exhaust side.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/horiz-intake.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/horiz-exhaust.jpg)
I also picked up some 600 wet/dry sand paper and 3'x3/4" of oak dowel that I thought I could shape into a tool to wedge on the closer rocker if I need to remove the closers.
Anything else anyone sees I've missed? If not I'll pull the belt later this afternoon after this rain has passed or maybe tomorrow morning.
Youll need an 8mm allen to lock the closing rocker arm in place if you need to pop off a closing shim.
Quote from: EEL on April 28, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
Youll need an 8mm allen to lock the closing rocker arm in place if you need to pop off a closing shim.
Really, I've seen the tool EMS sells and remember someone using an old wood handle reshaped to wedge in there. How do you us an 8mm?
The tool EMS uses pushes down the rocker arm. You can use whatever you want to do that. Even your thumb. The 8mm slides perfectly between the cam lobe and keeps the return spring from pushing the rocker arm back up.
It takes a little finesse but it has never failed me. Take the stubby end and wedge in.
Quote from: EEL on April 28, 2012, 04:22:24 PM
The tool EMS uses pushes down the rocker arm. You can use whatever you want to do that. Even your thumb. The 8mm slides perfectly between the cam lobe and keeps the return spring from pushing the rocker arm back up.
It takes a little finesse but it has never failed me. Take the stubby end and wedge in.
^ This [thumbsup]
Quote from: EEL on April 28, 2012, 04:22:24 PM
The tool EMS uses pushes down the rocker arm. You can use whatever you want to do that. Even your thumb. The 8mm slides perfectly between the cam lobe and keeps the return spring from pushing the rocker arm back up.
It takes a little finesse but it has never failed me. Take the stubby end and wedge in.
Thanks, I'll try that
Ok, belts off and did the clearance measurements. Set the vertical to TDC and then removed the belts. Measured the openers and then pressed on the rockers and measured the gap again. Set the horizontal to TDC, spun the cam pulley til it's tick mark line up and repeat the process. measurements were:
vertical intake
opener <.0015
closer .008
vertical exhaust
opener <.0015
closer .006
horizontal intake
opener .0035
closer .005
exhaust
opener .004
closer .005
So if my math is correct the vertical is at .0065 and the exhaust .0045 loaded/unloaded and that cyclinder is way outta wack?
Isn't there another excel spreadsheet program for figuring clearance specs floating out there besides the EMS one? I think I'm confusing myself by converting my measurements to metric, plugging them in and then trying to convert back.
Not sure which measuring style you're using....
Quote from: bdfinally on April 29, 2012, 11:05:55 AM
~~~SNIP~~~
vertical intake
opener <.0015
closer .008
~~~SNIP~~~
Is that "<.0015" the unloaded gap, and the ".008" the loaded gap?
If that's the case, your opener clearance is the <.0015, and closer clearance is ~.0065
Quote from: Speeddog on April 30, 2012, 08:50:47 AM
Is that "<.0015" the unloaded gap, and the ".008" the loaded gap?
If that's the case, your opener clearance is the <.0015, and closer clearance is ~.0065
Yep, that's the way I did it. Sorry, I just wrote a couple of notations on a legal pad and then transfered it here w/o writing the math too. So VI closer gap is .0065, VE closer is .0045. and both those clearances are too big. The HI closer gap is .0015 and the HE closer gap is .001. Going by Chris Kelly's numbers (.003-.004 intakes, .004-.005 exhausts openers and <.001 closers) I'm at minimum on the exhaust side of the Horizontal, a bit off on the intake side and fairly far off on both sides of the vertical?
So, your clearances are:
HIO .0035
HIC .0015
HEO .004
HEC .001
VIO <.0015
VIC ~.0065
VEO <.0015
VEC ~.0045
You could chase the HIC down a bit, and yes, all of your verticals need to be fixed.
So my target on the vertical intake opener is .003, so .0065 - .003 = .0035. Target on the exhaust opener is .004, so .0045 - .004 =.0005
Pull the openers from the vertical, measure w/micrometer and add .0035 to the intake, .0005 to the exhaust = new shim sizes?
Closers, I'm shakey on. Would it be .0065 - .001 = .0055 + current closer size = new intake closer?
Yes, you've got the math correct.
I recommend targeting the larger end of the range on the openers, .004 for the intakes, .005 for the exhausts.
Generally, the valves and seats wear, so that opener clearances get smaller, and closer clearances get bigger.
Shims are available in .05mm (.002) steps, so you may have to get a larger shim and sand it down in some cases.
A brand new shim of a specific size will fit tighter than a used shim of that same size, as the area where the half-rings sit does wear as the engine runs.
If you're getting shims in person, bring *your* measuring equipment, and measure the shims you're buying.
Trusting that the shim that's in a particular bin is the same size as what the bin is labeled, will bite you.
As will trusting the size on the shim, if it's marked.
Thanks Dog, I appreciate the confirmation.
So if I'm targeting the upper range, I'd actually sand off .0005 of the VE opener since my value is now a negative. How easy is it to take .0005" off a shim?
I got to say, dealing with this for the first time, some of these measurements just strike me as almost infinitesimal.
VEO?
You want that to be about .005"
Your measurement says it is <.0015"
You would need to sand off .0035" or more.
Don't do that.
Buy a shim that's closer to the correct thickness.
Start with 300 grit:
http://www.emsduc.com/assets/shim_kit_information.pdf (http://www.emsduc.com/assets/shim_kit_information.pdf)
Speeddog, I think I'm confused, but we'll come back to that.
I pulled the intake shims off the vertical this evening before dark. I think I might have another problem. Like I said I bought an EMS closer tool over a year ago and finally tried to try it out but think I was sent the wrong one. Their website shows it as looking like this in use.
(http://www.emsduc.com/images/products/zoomed/8mm_closer_shim_tool.jpg)
This is my closer with the tool they sent me.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/shimtool-sm.jpg)
and inside the shim
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/bdfinally/toolinsideshim.jpg)
which only lets me measure the tool size. The only other orientation that doesn't just measure the tool gives me a measurement less than the .393" (10mm) they say needs to be subtracted for the tool size. Am I missing something obvious...wouldn't be the first time.[bang]
Anyone confirm this is the proper tool for a '00 M750?
BD, my M800 uses 8mm valves, I think like your 750. The EMS tool I got from them and used on my valve jobs looks like the pic on their website. I think you may have the tool for the 7mm valves.
Thanks Battlecry, I sent Mike @ EMS an email to confirm and arrange an exchange
Well I've really got egg on my face, got a quick reply from Mike saying that's not his tool :-[
Now I'm racking my brain trying to remember where I got this thing. Funny cause the polybag has my name written on it, in someone else's hand and is marked 2v shim tool. Anyone recognize it?
Anyway, I'll be getting the proper tool from EMS shortly.
Got my openers measured and figured sizes for new shims. Waiting on my closer tool which should be here Saturday. My question now is is there any relative advantage in shim calculations for both openers and closers at the same time other than the "run out to the ducati shim store" again? Could I go ahead and buy my openers today, put the closers back on and do the fine tuning on the openers to get them to .004 & .005 and then do the closers this weekend?
Yes, but don't get them mixed up!
I'm using one of these to keep everything labels and separate
(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_573/12947786001YaZrn.jpg)
Ok, sat down and measured my openers and figured the size of new ones. The VIO is measuring at <.0015, my target is .004. Current opener is .1357 so I need a new shim .0025 smaller than current which would be .1332 converted to 3.38mm, so I need a 3.4mm shim and fine tune it by sanding. My VEO is measuring at <.0015 also and my target on that is .005. Current opener is .1449, new shim needs to be .0035 smaller which gives me .1414 converted to 3.59mm so I get a 3.60 and fine tune that. Does that make sense?
It does, but you shouldn't sand anything until you install and measure the new shims on the bike. [thumbsup]
Also get a bubble level on the ground where you plan on sanding. You probably know you need a flat piece of glass but if your ground isnt level you'll end up having uneven forces when you sand.
My coffee table has never been leveled...it may become accustomed to it. ;)
Mike @ EMS got my 8mm shim tool here in record time and I measured my closers. The VIC came in at .2518 (.6455-.3937 {10mm tool size}.) Add the .007 to close the gap to .001 and I got .2588" converted to 6.57 mm and I'll purchase a new 6.6 closer shim. The VEC was .2422 (.6379-.3937.)
Add the .005 to close the gap and I have .2472" converted to 6.27mm and I'll get a new 6.30mm shim for that side. Does that make sense?