Title: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 16, 2012, 01:51:45 PM So I just took california superbike school and got to ride their bmw s1000rr. I thought I would still love my bike and convinced myself at the track that I would. But I took her out today and noticed ALL the deficiencies that some of you guys have talked about and/or tried to fix. The brakes are an absolute joke which I had never really noticed, the front end feels way too light and unstable, the wide handlebars and reach combined makes it hard to tuck my knees up into the tank and relax my arms into a turn, the suspension especially the front just wants to dive.
BUT I love the way she looks and sounds. I figured all the money and time spent trying to "fix" or adjust her to the way I would want it that it would be almost cheaper getting a different bike. I know I don't even need to fix her just for the streets but man... I can't describe this feeling, like i'm cheating on my bike =( Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: gatorgrizz27 on May 16, 2012, 02:07:44 PM What bike do you have and what is your weight? If it is a classic monster and you have adjustable suspension, clip-ons, springs, 4-pad calipers, and a radial master will solve all of those issues pretty easily and cheaply. S1000RR's are pretty sick though, going to be hard to compete with one ridden at 100%...
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 16, 2012, 02:26:59 PM What bike do you have and what is your weight? If it is a classic monster and you have adjustable suspension, clip-ons, springs, 4-pad calipers, and a radial master will solve all of those issues pretty easily and cheaply. S1000RR's are pretty sick though, going to be hard to compete with one ridden at 100%... I have a s2r 800 and weigh around 140~145. I don't know if I could go the clip on route as many reviews I have read here says it put you way too low for normal street riding. I guess I would do that if I decided to go dedicated track bike. I think if I were to change anything it would definitely be the brakes first. On that s1000rr middle finger and very light braking took me from 120mph+ down to 60 soo fast, smooth, and predicable. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Spidey on May 16, 2012, 02:34:41 PM You're now picking up on all the stuff that makes a monster not a great bike on the track. But that's because you were just on the track with a superbike. If you took an S1000rr on the streets, you'd notice its deficiencies too. Spend some more time on the road, and you'll notice the monster's good points again. Brakes can be too touchy, too much weight on the front end can kill you when the road is bumpy, the body position of a supersport can get taxing after a while, great track suspension is harsh on the street, etc, etc.
That said, there is significant room for improvement on the s2r, espcially with suspension and brakes. The brakes are not going to compare with an S1000RR, but you don't need that for normal riding. Lots of folks go with clip-ons on the classic-styled monsters without feeling like they're too low. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 16, 2012, 03:14:17 PM Thanks for the points spidey. I guess I will give it a couple of weeks to simmer down my lust haha. Hoping I refind that kindle for the monster other than for its looks and sound.
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: RC Fan on May 16, 2012, 03:37:03 PM Can you try an S1000RR on the street? How many other bikes have you tried? Maybe you are ready for a change?
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: PhilB on May 16, 2012, 04:16:57 PM The S2R800 did have a budget suspension and brakes. The brakes in particular can be upgraded pretty easily; I think the 4-piston calipers from other models are a direct bolt-on.
PhilB Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Ak1nza on May 16, 2012, 07:18:32 PM I just recently upgraded my S2R800 brakes to the Brembo Goldlines off a S2R1000. It's a nice relatively inexpensive way to improve the braking system on the bike. I upgraded to the bigger coffin masters of the 1k as well but everyone here says for the best braking feel go with radial masters. I picked up my parts off another forum member here and got some Performance Friction pads as well.
It's not going to make your bike stop like a 1000RR but it's definitely an upgrade I recommend. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: gatorgrizz27 on May 16, 2012, 10:19:29 PM I have to admit the brakes on the BMW are astonishing, on your monster the 4 pad calipers from a 749/999 and the radial master from a 1098 or newer should help immensely though. The calipers should run about $250 and the master about $175 used.
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 17, 2012, 06:42:18 AM Can you try an S1000RR on the street? How many other bikes have you tried? Maybe you are ready for a change? Nope just only on the track for 2 days. 2 glorious days haha. Like others have mentioned not sure if I'm ready to jump ship yet as the more aggressive riding position may tire me out much quicker. I just recently upgraded my S2R800 brakes to the Brembo Goldlines off a S2R1000. It's a nice relatively inexpensive way to improve the braking system on the bike. I upgraded to the bigger coffin masters of the 1k as well but everyone here says for the best braking feel go with radial masters. I picked up my parts off another forum member here and got some Performance Friction pads as well. It's not going to make your bike stop like a 1000RR but it's definitely an upgrade I recommend. Yeah I think I may have to go radials. What confuses me is determining what dimensions and what not for the masters as they provide different amounts of feel/power. I have to admit the brakes on the BMW are astonishing, on your monster the 4 pad calipers from a 749/999 and the radial master from a 1098 or newer should help immensely though. The calipers should run about $250 and the master about $175 used. Hmm, very tempting. I will look into this. Thanks! If I may ask if the guys on the supersports are upgrading their brakes what are they going up to? monoblocks? Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Slide Panda on May 17, 2012, 06:55:23 AM If you go to any of the mentioned calipers you'll need the 320mm 10mm offset rotors as well. Common enough, same ones from an S2R1000, M1000, M800, Older 620s 600 400 900 S4, S4R (not S4Rs) and on and on.
When I had it, I upped the brakes on my 620 to the 4 piston 2-pad on 320 rotors like the older 620s and more current (at the time) S2R1000. Made quite a difference. On my current Monster it's got the caliper and master from a 999 and that's plenty of stopping power. Hell my Ktoom has one radial 4-piston 4-pad caliper on a 320 and pretty cruddy master and will lift the rear. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 17, 2012, 07:43:50 AM If you go to any of the mentioned calipers you'll need the 320mm 10mm offset rotors as well. Common enough, same ones from an S2R1000, M1000, M800, Older 620s 600 400 900 S4, S4R (not S4Rs) and on and on. When I had it, I upped the brakes on my 620 to the 4 piston 2-pad on 320 rotors like the older 620s and more current (at the time) S2R1000. Made quite a difference. On my current Monster it's got the caliper and master from a 999 and that's plenty of stopping power. Hell my Ktoom has one radial 4-piston 4-pad caliper on a 320 and pretty cruddy master and will lift the rear. So the 759/999 will give me 4 piston 4 pad while the s2r1000 is 4 piston 2 pad? What confuses me the most is all these offsets and whatnot. Is the master on a 1098+ bike that much better than from a 749/999? Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: gatorgrizz27 on May 17, 2012, 08:30:11 AM So the 759/999 will give me 4 piston 4 pad while the s2r1000 is 4 piston 2 pad? What confuses me the most is all these offsets and whatnot. Is the master on a 1098+ bike that much better than from a 749/999? Correct. Any of the 320mm rotors with 10mm offset and 6 bolt pattern, which are basically any bike that came with the 3 spoke Brembo wheels rather than the 10 spoke Marchsinis which take a 5 bolt 15mm offset rotor will work. The 4 piston 4 pad 749/999 calipers are better than the 4 piston 2 pad monster calipers also. The monster calipers are still a huge upgrade but if you are buying new calipers why not go up 2 levels, the 749/999's are only about $100 more used. The 15mm superbike rotor offset v the 10mm monster rotor offset is compensated for by the fork mounts, meaning that either calipers will work with no mods or spacers. The 1098 master supposedly has much better feel than the 999, and also more reliable. 999's have a rep for leaking, and the 1098 masters usually only run about $50 more used. Not to drag you off to the deep land of crazy mods and custom work where I've ended up, but if you plan on upgrading the suspension as well, you could consider a whole take off frontend from a 749/999 or even better an S4Rt/Hyper/848/1098/Streetfighter. Awesome fully adjustable forks, radial mount brakes, and a 10 spoke Mrachesini, and the matching rear will bolt straight on with no mods. [evil] The forks just require having your top tripple bored from 50mm to 53mm, an easy job for any machinist, and a 1mm shim on the bottom, and bar risers or clip-ons for clearance. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 17, 2012, 10:27:24 AM Correct. Any of the 320mm rotors with 10mm offset and 6 bolt pattern, which are basically any bike that came with the 3 spoke Brembo wheels rather than the 10 spoke Marchsinis which take a 5 bolt 15mm offset rotor will work. The 4 piston 4 pad 749/999 calipers are better than the 4 piston 2 pad monster calipers also. The monster calipers are still a huge upgrade but if you are buying new calipers why not go up 2 levels, the 749/999's are only about $100 more used. The 15mm superbike rotor offset v the 10mm monster rotor offset is compensated for by the fork mounts, meaning that either calipers will work with no mods or spacers. The 1098 master supposedly has much better feel than the 999, and also more reliable. 999's have a rep for leaking, and the 1098 masters usually only run about $50 more used. Not to drag you off to the deep land of crazy mods and custom work where I've ended up, but if you plan on upgrading the suspension as well, you could consider a whole take off frontend from a 749/999 or even better an S4Rt/Hyper/848/1098/Streetfighter. Awesome fully adjustable forks, radial mount brakes, and a 10 spoke Mrachesini, and the matching rear will bolt straight on with no mods. [evil] The forks just require having your top tripple bored from 50mm to 53mm, an easy job for any machinist, and a 1mm shim on the bottom, and bar risers or clip-ons for clearance. Great thanks for the info grizz! I feel like this is a bad (for my wallet) slippery slope that I may just be about to venture down. If I wanted to go off the deep end I would want to build a clone of a 9 1/2 ducati cafe bike but for pure track. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Triple J on May 17, 2012, 11:02:24 AM Yeah I think I may have to go radials. What confuses me is determining what dimensions and what not for the masters as they provide different amounts of feel/power. Just go with this: http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=110.A263.10 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=110.A263.10) See how it feels and then decide if you need new calipers. You might not. I put one of these on my 748 race bike, and it was all I needed. Go crazy and get the clutch equivalent and you'll have a cool looking set-up as well. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 18, 2012, 04:50:19 AM Just go with this: http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=110.A263.10 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=110.A263.10) See how it feels and then decide if you need new calipers. You might not. I put one of these on my 748 race bike, and it was all I needed. Go crazy and get the clutch equivalent and you'll have a cool looking set-up as well. That is one massively expensive master. How is the clutch equivalent beneficial? Even lighter clutch? Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Triple J on May 18, 2012, 07:09:35 AM That is one massively expensive master. How is the clutch equivalent beneficial? Even lighter clutch? Yep, pricey. But if it makes it so you don't need calipers and such then it's cheap. It was the 2nd best upgrade I did to my race bike, only behind lightweight wheels. The radial action should make the clutch feel lighter...but mainly it'll just look cool since it will match the brake. ;D Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 18, 2012, 07:28:36 AM Yep, pricey. But if it makes it so you don't need calipers and such then it's cheap. It was the 2nd best upgrade I did to my race bike, only behind lightweight wheels. The radial action should make the clutch feel lighter...but mainly it'll just look cool since it will match the brake. ;D I noticed that it is adjustable. Basically you can pick between 19x18 or 18x20. What is your preference in terms of feel and power and any other comments? Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Triple J on May 18, 2012, 08:26:04 AM I noticed that it is adjustable. Basically you can pick between 19x18 or 18x20. What is your preference in terms of feel and power and any other comments? Honestly I don't know. I just adjusted the lever to where it felt good. :-\ Stopping power and feel were way better than stock, allowing 2 finger braking for all race/track conditions.You may not need to go the full 19mm RCS route. I liked the adjustability and folding lever, and tha's what my mechanic recommended. He said it would be a massive improvement, so I got it...and he was right. You'd likely be OK with any upgraded Brembo radial master. This one would likely be just as good. http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.4760.70 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.4760.70) Now that I think about it, this is probably the one I had. http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.4760.75 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.4760.75) Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: MadDuck on May 18, 2012, 08:39:50 AM You can totally knock yourself out upgrading your Monster. I know, having almost gone the max on my old one and then having sold it to a friend who is continuing the fine tradition. I totally tricked out a 999 and have pretty much gone overboard, and still going, modding an 848.
I am not the guy to discourage modding. No way. I fully admit to the disease and madness that afflicts me. But.......... You cannot make a Monster into a superbike. A Monster is big, big fun on the streets and for most riding. If you want to go fast and stuff turns or run on the track then save your upgrade money for a superbike. Or not. Just don't spend a lot of money on Monster mods and then be sad that it's not a superbike. Comparing a S1000RR to a Monster 800? ........... You just can't do any justice there. Some testers are still prefer the the S1000RR over the 1199 Panigale. Gasp. :o Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 18, 2012, 02:05:19 PM Great points you make there macduck. That helped keep my head level. I can easily see this add up to way more money that just buying a dedicated trackrat.
As for the s1000rr over the new 1199 panigale from some reviews it is because the s1000rr was lapping some 3 seconds faster per lap than the duc. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: kopfjÀger on May 18, 2012, 03:07:12 PM BMW S1000RR vs European rivals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SFCokwH2M&feature=youtube_gdata_player#)
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Autostrada Pilot on May 18, 2012, 06:43:17 PM My Monster could smoke any of those bikes. [Dolph]
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: DRKWNG on May 19, 2012, 02:56:41 AM My Monster could smoke any of those bikes. [Dolph] Mind passing along some of whatever is in your pipe? Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: lawbreaker on May 19, 2012, 06:35:03 AM I'm just suprized that you are trying to compare two completely different types of machines ???
If you dont ride the S2R that often... or dont use your monster to commute ... and now feel you're the SBK type ( canyon blasts and track days) Buy a SBK !! I happen to prefer my S2R1k for daily duties cuz riding the 996 in traffic can certainly SUCK Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Privateer on May 19, 2012, 08:05:47 AM if you want a slightly lower bar position without going to clipons, you could try the suburban machinery bar. It's a little lower and rotated a bit more downwards. It felt much better for me without being to insanely low.
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 19, 2012, 05:49:24 PM I'm just suprized that you are trying to compare two completely different types of machines ??? If you dont ride the S2R that often... or dont use your monster to commute ... and now feel you're the SBK type ( canyon blasts and track days) Buy a SBK !! I happen to prefer my S2R1k for daily duties cuz riding the 996 in traffic can certainly SUCK I wasn't really comparing the two. I'm basically noticing some deficiencies in terms of performance that would be great. Don't get me wrong I love my monster but just wish it had a bit better things without costing an arm and a leg. if you want a slightly lower bar position without going to clipons, you could try the suburban machinery bar. It's a little lower and rotated a bit more downwards. It felt much better for me without being to insanely low. Not sure I want to go any more forward or down without more pullback as I'm only 5'6. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on May 21, 2012, 07:56:09 AM I have to admit the brakes on the BMW are astonishing, on your monster the 4 pad calipers from a 749/999 and the radial master from a 1098 or newer should help immensely though. The calipers should run about $250 and the master about $175 used. Where are you finding these prices? I've been looking around and everything seems to be grossly overpriced. I don't get how a ducati 749/999 caliper can be more expensive than a BMW s1000rr caliper on ebay. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: thought on May 21, 2012, 08:43:04 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CJ72S5VPQ8&list=UUB_cdRhIDhlavY2I5URSC7g&index=4&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: OT on May 21, 2012, 01:48:49 PM Hmmm....
WSBK-race-winning/podiuming (sic) S1000RR vs. cool, 'starter-bike' S2R800. I'd be hard pressed to find any noticeable differences there [coffee] Nice article in a recent RoadRacingWorld issue about a fellow who stuck an air-cooled 796 Monster engine in an 848 (kept it all stock, I think). Probably cheaper than modding the S2R in the long run. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: polivo on May 21, 2012, 05:05:22 PM In all fairness sake. Your comparing a 6 year old "standard" to a a bleeding edge 2012 production race bike. The only thing those 2 bikes have in common is they both have 2 wheels! lol
OK, getting off the soap box, im sure you get the drift. 6 years ago, your s2r would have felt unbelievable, by that times comparible motorcycles. However, 6 years later, theres simply no comparison to even a 600cc honda/suzuki/gixxer, etc. Even these bikes will beat the s2r in every category. This is just my 2 cents. Im sure others will disagree. if the sportbike bug has bitten you, but yourself a sportbike. Youll be wasting money trying to make your s2r into something it was never meant to be.. and youll continuasly be chasing that additional performance. Im willing to bet you can buy an older sportbike, that will get you way more performance you can ever squeeze out of the s2r. Or.. you can sell the s2r , put some money down on an m1100. Slap some clip ons and have the best of both worlds! flame on! Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: thought on May 21, 2012, 09:24:14 PM Nice article in a recent RoadRacingWorld issue about a fellow who stuck an air-cooled 796 Monster engine in an 848 (kept it all stock, I think). Probably cheaper than modding the S2R in the long run. Wasnt there someone who slapped on desmosedici style fairings on a 796 too? that seems even easier... weld in some tabs to hold the body work and there you go. Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: xsephirot on June 01, 2012, 09:40:48 AM So after much more riding I am just going to upgrade the brakes. Thinking of doing the whole 749/999 setup with rotors, pistons, and a 19x18 master. Do you guys know if I will need to change out the forks too? Or do I just shim it or something?
BTW, if anyone of you see any those parts for sale please let me know? *edit* forgot to ask would a radial master work with axial calipers? Cause if I'm not mistaken a 999 caliper would be axial?? Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Autostrada Pilot on June 01, 2012, 01:46:48 PM My Monster could smoke any of those bikes. [Dolph] Mind passing along some of whatever is in your pipe? I've got 75 hp at the rear wheel (never mind it's 13 years old and at 4500' above sea level). [cheeky] Title: Re: Uh Oh...Noticing all the deficiencies after taking CSS Post by: Triple J on June 01, 2012, 02:12:28 PM *edit* forgot to ask would a radial master work with axial calipers? Yes |