Ducati Monster Forum

I haven't seen this posted yet:

http://www.monster.ducati.com/en (http://www.monster.ducati.com/en)

Love the frame and the logo!

 :-[  guess I expected more pisaz.

Not impressed with the Monster, but was  [drool] over the 848 in black with red frame.

Meh...

they can use the old logo and frame color.

It will never again be the Monster Galluzi designed.

For that you just need to invite PhilB over to your house.

They stayed pretty true to it for quite a while.

It went to hell with the 4V.

Yea, just a logo and two special pieces.  They could do better IMO.

JM

 i like the old-gold frame, red tank and throw back lettering.    I have to look at each of those pictures with optimism, because they always look like hell with stock pipes to me.  nearly all bikes. from every manufacturer.

A drunken night with a program to download videos from youtube and a 36 pack of beer would of resulted in something better than that!

very true

you mean half a frame

 holy crap I just noticed the mikey mouse ears  [popcorn]

meh, with that kind of complaint you won't find many superbike frames very attractive dating back to the 851/888...

that was the only thing that caught my eye on the bike....but not in a good way.

Those are the first things I noticed. Retro mirrors FTW. I mean, if they're gonna ditch the trellis frame and the round headlight, we might as well get something from the old parts bin.

I missed that.  Are they clearing out bins from 20 years ago?  And here we thought Audi would improve things.

Slightly off topic, but...


(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z53/b_upton/Moto/SBK-848evo-Corse-SE_2013_Studio_C01_1920x1080mediagallery_output_image_1920x1080.png)

This I approve.  ;D

   [thumbsdown]  Very disappointing for the 20th anniversary monster.

 A paint job and old mirrors,  :-[.  An  1100 evo sp, Ohlins, forged wheels, parts bin bike would not be asking too much for a 20th anniversary edition.

 [thumbsup] [drink]

My 4V IS the best Monster ever made. ;)  [beer]

 :D

I'm not remotely impressed by this...

They could do so much better.

(The hot-rod 848 though:  [thumbsup] )

The font alludes to the Cagiva era .... wrong timeframe for my taste

hmmm

IF I were the one designing a 20th Anniversary Monster

Complete frame including subframe gold
Wheels, all three models get three spokers even SSS (think 916), gold
brake calipers, goldline
goldline masters
new exhaust with double sided low exhaust (using 696 routing too  [thumbsup] I have the plans in the works)
single colored red bodywork, no black stripe and no bumper on rear seat
snowflake rotors, full floating, gold
special model light with no center bar
yes, mouse ear mirrors
and of course bring back the S model for the Evo with Ohlins

they did capture some of this in the bike. and honestly, I had some of this already in mind. I've been thinking of going gold frame,wheels and red body this winter. now I'll be a copycat  >:(

I was going to comment on them, but then the stock mirrors on the new bikes aren't any better.   ;)

The gold frame is awesome, though.

+1  And of course, I mean my own blue S4R [clap]

\

THIS! OMG! DO WANT! :o

[laugh]  Those are the most authentic part about it.  (Of course those all got stripped off the original bikes right away in favor of barends.)

I kind of like it.  In the known context of most Ducati "special editions" being mainly cosmetic, it's no worse than any other.  I think that color scheme works well with the bike.  I wouldn't but one just to get that, but if I was buying a new Monster, I'd probably pick that.

Remember, though, that the original Monster was a partsbin bike done on the cheap -- stuff a 900SS motor in an 888 frame, fit low budget non-adjustable suspension, a few cosmetic bits, and boom.  No fancy high-zoot stuff.

That happens to be the time that the Monster was created though.  How could that be the wrong timeframe, though?  The logo itself is uninspiring, I agree.  But that era in the '90's saw several of Ducati's best designs.  The 916, the best 900ss, and the original Monster were the lineup; all still desirable classics and great bikes today.

PhilB

Agreed.

I was impressed that they changed the colour of the frame; I figured the anniversary edition would just end up being a new 'Monster Art / Logomania' set of plastics.


The original Monster isn't coming back; the design has moved on.  There are things I like and dislike about both the 'old' and 'new' designs.  Fanboys of the old design who hate the new aren't going to be happy regardless, but I think it was nice that Ducati did something more than just release some new plastics with the 90s logo and call it a day.

Think about this
After the 848 and hyper go away this year. there are no more full trellis frames

Streetfighter models are still full trellis.

...and the 20th anniversary edition is weak IMO. Paint, or annodizing, and the return of fugly mirrors. Anyone can do that with their current Monsters.

I agree with a few other. It would have been a true anniversary edition if they slapped a tubular subframe on it.

And how is the sf sales. will they stick around long

How would that Gold frame look with the "Mach 1" monster art kit on it, or the "Darmah"?  I know we expected more of a "sports Classic" type of re-do for a Monster anniversary edition, but I think Ducati is more interested in selling bikes & Accessories....LOL

:-\

Disappointing 
 

SF848 sales are doing pretty well and I think SF1098 sales picked up because of them.

Never realized I had built the 20th Anni model!!   [roll] [roll]

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/118811/IMG_2468.jpg)

so has anyone confirmed the price on the anniversary edition?  I'm wondering if the kool aid is strong.  [popcorn]

I'm thinking the SF trellis will disappear for a Panigale based bike.

no trellis, weak.

I will buy that bike.  it will be awesome.  [evil]

+1
I certainly hope that Ducati doesn't abandon the aesthetic beauty of such a frame.  I know everyone likes progress as do I but staying true to your roots is also a very compelling marketing strategy.  I'll be stoned for this but HD has done it for 100 plus years and no matter what anyone says they continue to be successful.  Audi, make it happen like you did with Lambo.

I'd bet the trellis is here to stay, long term, for all Ducatis except the superbikes.  It works for them all just fine until you get to WSB/MotoGP level.  It's cheap and easy to manufacture and engineer and modify for different models.

PhilB

Phil, it is all but over for the full trellis frame.  The Hyper gets will be updated soon.  It will be based on the current Multistrada's frame.  The 848 will be phased out after that and will be a Panigale no-frame bike.  The SF will then be done or will evolve into a Panigale based bike.  Within 2-3 years, maybe less, there will be no full trellis frame bike in Ducati's line-up.

 I'm very curious to know if the panigale frame is based on the failed moto GP design. A recent interview with Nicky Haden in which he says he will be using a new frame based on Valentinos aluminum version, which is nothing like the previous carbon fiber box design.
 Was the current box design of the panigale ok'd for production too early before the MotoGP version was race proven?
 What I'm getting at is that I hate to see the proven and beautiful trellis frames disappear for a technology that doesn't work. I imagine there are some very heated meetings happening in the Ducati corse dept.

here's the thing. the Panigale will HAVE to do well in WSBK next year or yes, the question will come up about the frame and Ducati will have a lot to answer for, specifically Preziosi who designed the damn thing.
BUT that's another thread.

The current MultiStrada has a trellis frame.  So if the new HyperMotard is based on it, then it will too.  The 848 is part of the full sportbike line, and I agree it will go with the frameless monocoque.  The StreetFighter may or may not switch over; I think it won't.  I think it will remain part of the group of trellis-framed 4V liquid-cooled bikes that also includes the MultiStrada and the Diavel.  The Diavel is not going to become a frameless monocoque, and neither is the Monster (funny you didn't mention that line at all, you know, the one this board is dedicated to?)

So to sum up -- the full sportbikes are going to the frameless monocoque, and *maybe* the StreetFighter, and everything else is sticking with the trellis for the foreseeable future.

The MotoGP design was not a complete failure.  They did not get it developed enough to win the races, but it was improved throughout the program, and was within a second or so of the leaders.  It might also be noted that the CF monocoque was not the bike's only problem -- switching to a conventional aluminum twinspar has not improved their results much if any.

The Panigale frame is the same idea, but is executed in aluminum rather than CF, so it is a different design.  A big part of the point of the MotoGP program was to test the frameless monocoque idea as a prototype, under the harshest conditions, to learn enough about it to be able to design a production version that would be competitive as soon as possible.  Since WSB requires the bikes to be production-based, they couldn't start there with the new frame(less) design.  They took what they learned from the MotoGP effort (good and bad) and applied it to the production design, which early indications show will be competitive in WSB.

The trellis frames, meanwhile, had already reached the limts of the design, so sticking with those for bikes at that leel of performance was already known to be a losing proposition.  They HAD to change, so calling it a choice between the trellis frame and the monocoque is false.  It wa a choice between the frameless monocoque, or a (now) traditional aluminum twinspar, or developing something else new.  At MotoGP, or even WSB, levels, the trellis was already dead.

PhilB

The MTS, Diavel, Monster, new HM are all partial trellis, partial cast frames

The SF and 848 are full trellis with trellis subframes.

difference is the partials need the cast part to be actual frames
the full trellis can have their subframes removed and still roll.

the SBK are 'frameless'

the SF will either go frameless or partial cast (and yes, that is a prediction I'll stand behind)


Also, they did try the AL monoque that the Panigale is using in GP, and it also did not work well.

The Trellis frames were not the problem in WSBK, it was the motor. A new motor in the trellis probably would have stomped in WSBK.
This year the Superstock did win some, but did not win the championship. as did the old tired trellis in WSBK.

True, but you can't discount the tires. It may have worked very well if they didn't have to run the super stiff Bridgestones in GP.

I think WSBK will prove if the current frameless design is good, as the spec. WSBK tires seem to work with about anything.

I'll agree with all of this regarding the production bike line.

However, they did not try the aluminum monocoque in MotoGP.  What they did try for a bit was to have some aluminum inserts cast into the CF monocoque, and that did not solve the problems.  The real root cause problems in MotoGP are not known, but a lot of very knowledgable people think the 90º vee angle of the engine had a lot to do with it, and of course the spec tire.

In WSB, the trellis frames were not the problem *yet*, but they had developed it as far as they could, and if they didn't come up with something else soon, the frame was going to become a problem.  If the motor had been the only problem, they could have designed the SuperSqualo and easily just put it in a trellis frame -- that's the biggest advantage of the trellis; it's easy to modify.  That's why Ducati has used them historically.

PhilB

I wrote a long response but here's the issue back to the 20th Anniversary.

The true full trellis will go the way of the dodo. I could see it come back for the next SportClassic redo. and that's it.

So they do the same for the Panigale?

The 1199, was committed to before they acknowledged the failure of the frameless 90deg vee setup

As far as AL, i'm pretty certain they had a complete AL monoque at one point.

If by "true full trellis" you mean a one-piece trellis frame that runs from the steering head to the taillight, then yes, it already has become essentially extinct in the current line.  I think only the 848 still has that, and we all agree it will most likely follow the Panigale's lead.

But a partial trellis, as currently practiced on the rest of the line, won't go away soon.

The 90º V-twin is a trademark, and that has worked fine for them.  The MotoGP engine was/is a 90º V-four, so it is a different design than the Panigale.

And the 1199 engine was committed to before they gave up on the frameless design in MotoGP, so they were pretty much stuck with that, for better or worse, but those two are not related.  The 1199's frame(less) design was in the works, but if they had decided that the monocoque really was a failed design (which they have not ever "admitted"), they could easily have made a trellis frame for it -- again, that's one of the big advantages of the trellis; it's easy to design, build, and modify.  But they did not; they *chose* to move forward with the monocoque on the Panigale, using what they learned in MotoGP, and further develop it in WSB now that they have a production version to race there.  So no, they are not just using it in the Panigale because they were stuck with the commitment to it; they are using it because they think it is the best way forward for the bike and for the brand.

And if they did use an aluminum monocoque in MotoGP, it must have flashed by for one or two races only and no effort to develop that.  But I really don't think it was done at all.  If you have any evidence for it, I'd be interested to see it.

PhilB

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/09/check-out-the-aluminum-frame-on-rossis-ducati/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/09/check-out-the-aluminum-frame-on-rossis-ducati/)

OK, it does look like they gave it a brief try, but didn't do any more than that.  I think they gave up on the monocoque in MotoGP too soon, and instead should have pushed hard for the end to the spec tire rule.

PhilB

 [thumbsup]

For those that want a good read on what ails Ducati's MotoGP efforts, here you go.

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html (http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html)


For those who would rather skip reading the entire article;
here's my take-away on the crux of the problem.

ooo ooo

Ducati makes in I4 and then builds a parallel twin and mono out of it  [Dolph]

how about just rotate the V so its guzzi style

Because then it would be a guzzi.
 :P

Fine, rotate it to the guzzi position, then turn 180 degrees so the weight is lower. (screw cornering clearance)