Long story short, I've been browsing around here on various charging/reg/rec threads to try and figure out why the old girl won't hold a charge. Fully charged on the battery tender, I get ~12v at the battery, no matter what. When I pulled the connections to my regulator/rectifier I found that the 6 pin connector came off just fine, but I had issues removing the 3 cable connector that goes to the stator. A lot of PB Blaster, pinched fingers (via channel locks) and cursing later, I got her off to find this:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Jervisaurus/Bikes/DSC03128.jpg)
I sent the regulator off to Ricks Motorsport electrics (who have fantastic turnaround and customer service, by the way) to have them test it, and apparently it's just fine. My cell phone camera doesn't really pick up the details, but there's even a bit of melted plastic around the spade terminal from where I assume the substantial voltage coming out of the stator was simply resisted by all the bullshit and corrosion caked on to the connector. They put a new terminal on the rec and are sending a new set of terminals for me to crimp on to the end of the stator cable so hopefully I haven't fried anything internally, but I figured I would give folks something to check out next time you're doing a valve check, oil change, or just giving the bike a good once over. I usually try to check brakes, plug wires, coils, etc for damage or other issues while I'm tinkering around, so keep a weather eye on this.
Oh, and Ricks charged me $30 for testing, terminal replacement, and the new terminal for the stator end. I know my way around a volt meter and I'm sure I could have diagnosed the R/R myself, but sometimes it's worth a little peace of mind.
That connector has been problematic forever.
You can replace it with a better one, or simply solder the wires together.
When the new kit gets here I'm planning on weather proofing the whole thing a bit better as well as using a bit of dielectric grease on the terminals. That is if my stator isn't fried... :-\
I've had intermittent wiring problems on my duc randomly too ('00 M750), and actually found that every issue I've stumbled upon was fixed by simply crimping the female spade terminals in related connectors down a bit tighter so they made a definite solid connection with the male terminals. which makes perfect sense because issues I've had were more apparent at specific rpms (specific vibration frequencies), and being old the terminals simply opened up a bit and were making inconsistent connections.
Aprilia's often do this as well, and its helped by soldering the wire to the connector for a better fit.
My Tuono did it so I replaced the ill-fated brown plug with a higher rated one and its been all good ever since [thumbsup]
Exact same thing happened to my '07 and my stator was fine afterwards. I know you just spent some bucks getting a new terminal put on there, but ducpainter gives good advice. Best to solder the wiring or uprate the connector for longterm reliability. Nothing more frustrating than a no-start in the middle of no-where!
BK
I prefer not soldering the wires since future diagnostics are difficult. The connector is indeed cheesy, but mine still is fine after 11 years and 63K miles. The trick is keep it clean and tight, packed with dielectric grease. If i ever need to replace it would I get a beefier connector? You bet.
Ricks is sending a new connector with the R/R so hopefully it will be decent. Definitely lots of dielectric grease, and I'm hoping I have some shrink wrap that will fit over the back of the connector where the wires enter. It seems strange that manufacturers who know that the electrial connectors are going to be out in the rain would come up with a different connector design.
My '07 was never used in the rain (calif.) and was stored in a garage between weekend canyon rides. Never even hosed it down for the rare wash. Still only took a few years for that OE connection to fry itself. Just takes a tiny bit of connector resistance at those large currents to generate a ton of heat. The metri-pack 280 connectors look like a good option:
http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R_R_Connectors/r_r_connectors.html (http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R_R_Connectors/r_r_connectors.html)
BK
Link saved!
Quote from: BK_856er on October 12, 2012, 03:48:26 PM
My '07 was never used in the rain (calif.) and was stored in a garage between weekend canyon rides. Never even hosed it down for the rare wash. Still only took a few years for that OE connection to fry itself. Just takes a tiny bit of connector resistance at those large currents to generate a ton of heat. The metri-pack 280 connectors look like a good option:
http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R_R_Connectors/r_r_connectors.html (http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R_R_Connectors/r_r_connectors.html)
BK
Those look a lot like the ones we have on our headlight connectors. You know, the weather resistant ones... I'd be willing to bet if they traded the two at the factory it would have saved some people a lot of grief.
Quote from: Jarvicious on October 13, 2012, 07:21:35 AM
Those look a lot like the ones we have on our headlight connectors. You know, the weather resistant ones... I'd be willing to bet if they traded the two at the factory it would have saved some people a lot of grief.
Agreed. The weather sealing is nice, but the metri-pack electrical connectors themselves are also far more robust than the standard spade connector. Instead of relying on a primitive interference fit, there is a "spring" feature to help ensure good mating and electrical contact. The OE connector meltdown is very annoying!
BK
Updates! It's not the R/R [bang].
Mine came via brown truck today (by a friendly courier who hung out in the garage with me for a minute or two talking brutal crashes) with a shiny new connector attached as well as the spare to crimp onto the bike. I took great care in crimping each terminal carefully and made doubly sure that the wires coming out of the stator matched in both terminals. I wasn't sure if any weird voltage or electrical frying issues could occur, but I didn't want to take any chances. I also hope they attached the connector to the regulator properly.
After I got everything back together (with a good helping of dielectric grease) I broke out the old meter and turned it on. I got around 12.4 with the bike off, around 12.3 with just the ignition on, and 12.xx (don't remember. I think I may have passed out momentarily in a blind rage) when the motor was at 5k rpm+.
I did however get the 999 masters fitted and bled so I just had to take her around the block a few times despite the charging issue. When I got back I checked
- 40amp fues (fine)
- 5 amp charging fuse (fine)
- the regulator was good and warm, as it should be
Until I have time to go out and meter the individual stator wires, should I assume that my stator is toast?
Or the wiring.
I forget...did you inspect the stator plug?
Quote from: ducpainter on October 15, 2012, 03:52:51 PM
Or the wiring.
I forget...did you inspect the stator plug?
+1 check each plug on the stator end and make sure you are on AC.
What do you mean by the wiring? Remember, I replaced all the spade terminals attached to the three stator wires coming off the motor. Wires cut, stripped, crimped and greased. No, I haven't done any voltage testing, or are you implying pulling the side of the motor off and doing a visual check.
As you cut back the wire to the connector on the stator side did you eventually get to copper that was not black? You also need to test AC voltage from the stator. You need an AC meter and you are looking for about 30 volts AC at speed.
Oh yeah, the wire itself was fine. There was just a ton of corrosion around the spade connectors themselves within the plastic housing.
When I meter them out, can I just ground the black line on the battery or frame and test each individual wire from the stator, or should I test voltage across each wire?
You test across the pairs of yellow wires.
The voltages should all be similar both at idle and at speed
It'll get done when I get back from Wichita >:(
Benefit: I get a company vehicle
Con: they make me use it now and then.
Stator is cookified :( :( I'm getting around 15 volts a/c at around 5-6 rpm and slightly less the lower the rpms. I didn't check the other wire as it was kind of hard to get to with the meter, but it doesn't look good. Time to call Ricks again.
For peace of mind, I'm looking for anywhere from 60-80Vac, right? I'm assuming that because (bike fully charged) I'm only getting ~12Vdc at the battery while the bike is running and that Ricks professionally tested my R/R, AND that this thing is only putting out a fraction of what the bike needs that I should go ahead and drain the oil and pull the side cover, yes? Argh.
Tally of things that HAD to be replaced this year (not even the stuff I wanted to upgrade):
- fork seals and bushings
- stator
- front and rear sprockets and chain
- headlight assembly
How did you do the stator check?
I metered across the yellow wires coming out of the stator, in Vac two at a time in different configurations. Even for kicks, I metered the voltage off each individual wire with the black probe grounded on the frame. I took Ohm measurements about around .4 between each of the wires.
I was hoping you did something wrong. Sorry, stator time.
i'll go into bat for the original connector. i see very, very few of them fried. run them on a single phase system with only two terminals in them and it's a guaranteed fail. but 3 phase systems they're fine.
soldering is a pita when you have to fix someone's non fix.
Quote from: howie on October 29, 2012, 08:50:43 PM
I was hoping you did something wrong. Sorry, stator time.
That's why I posted up. I was hoping someone was going to say "No no, it's volts DC!". No such luck.
Quote from: brad black on October 30, 2012, 03:54:02 AM
i'll go into bat for the original connector. i see very, very few of them fried. run them on a single phase system with only two terminals in them and it's a guaranteed fail. but 3 phase systems they're fine.
soldering is a pita when you have to fix someone's non fix.
I'm not sure what all that means :)
Although this link is from a Speed Triple site, it is well onto its way as being the most endorsed and referenced charge system online forum thread. Don't let the Triumph connotation bother you 'cause lecktricity can't tell one marque from another. ;)
I'm new here, so maybe cut me some slack if it has been linked to before. :)
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html#post1214215 (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html#post1214215)
i have a spare stator if you are looking for a cheap one.
i snipped the wires since i needed teh connector end. there is about 6 inches of wire coming off the engine.
i'll put mine in too:
Charging system diagnosis: checks I do.
Visual:
Check regulator - single phase (2 yellow wires) often leak black goo.
Check yellow wires from alternator for melting and connector burning. The 3 pin white terminal will melt if used as a two pin connector on a single phase system as per the upgrade kits.
The yellow wires often get green corrosion on them under the insulation, which has usually turned whitish and brittle. I tend to cut it back until it's nice and new looking if possible, but it's not really necessary ime.
Check other wires out of regulator to battery.
Check maxi fuse.
Battery:
Charge with a real charger (not a trickle charger) and load test once charged. If it won't hold load, replace it. As has been said, you need a fully charged battery to diagnose the system.
Multimeter:
Check for continuity between the two or three alternator wires. Should have some with very low resistance.
Check for continuity between alternator wires and ground. Should be none.
Check for continuity between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery positive terminal. This will also show up a blown maxi fuse.
Check for continuity between the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system.
Check alternator ac output between yellow wires. Should get to 70vac fairly quickly. On a 3 phase system check between all combinations of two yellows.
Fit a dc rectifier between the yellows and battery. This directly charges the battery, and will show you whether or not the alternator can produce under load, which the ac test doesn't. Battery voltage should climb over 15v at quite low rpm. Don't hold it above 15v for too long, but certainly make sure it can get there. I usually raise the rpm until I see 16 or 17, and then shut it off straight away.
If everything so far has passed, replace the regulator.
I always use round bullet terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection in the same size as the originals. They're very reliable if kept clean and lubed. Do not use flat spade terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection on a single phase system. Even when not in a connector, I've never seen them last. Always cover the alternator to regulator terminals with heat shrink too. Pretty much lube every terminal and connector, and heat shrink all bullet or individual terminal connections.
Some people like to solder the yellow alternator to regulator connections. I don't, as it's something you can't undo and reconnect easily without the correct tools if you have to. The round bullet terminals are so reliable I see no point.
Once you've replaced the regulator, check the voltage at the battery with the engine running. You should get 14.3 or so v.
If not, (I always do this check anyway) check the voltage drop between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery. This will show you how much voltage drop there is in the wiring loom (including the maxi fuse). It's common to see 0.5V and sometimes more here.
Do the same check for the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system. This is usually much lower, but again definitely worth checking.
I often run a jump wire on a single phase system from regulator body to the battery negative terminal and check the battery voltage with the jump on and off. That will tell you if the earth at the regulator body is bad.
If you get voltage drops I run extra wires from the regulator to the battery. Given I always replace single phase regulators with the 3 phase Shendengan SH579 that is fitted to the 3 phase bikes as std (just cut one of the yellows at the regulator short under the sheath and leave unconnected) you don't need to earth the regulator body. But if there is a wire there you might as well fit it to a mounting screw. Saves people seeing a wire dangling and thinking something is wrong. Just run extra earth wires from the regulator 4 pin connector (2 greens are earth) back to the battery. I usually go to the frame ground point as well if it's on the way, such as on a pre 2002 Monster. Just make sure you scrape the frame paint off and grease the terminals and frame.
For the positive wires I run from the 2 red wires on the regulator 4 pin connector back to the maxi fuse (using new terminals) and from the maxi fuse to the battery. People who know more than me about this stuff say there's no need to include a fuse in this circuit, but I like to keep it if I can (i.e., have the right terminals)
This way you end up with one more terminal per post at the battery, but sometimes you pick up more voltage than you'd expect. With a fresh SH579, a good battery and fresh wiring I always see 14.2 â€" 14.3V at the battery.
I leave the old maxi fuse terminals connected, just cover them with heat shrink and zip tie out of the way. Same with positive (red) and two wire flat connectors that went to the old single phase regulator. That way the loom is still original as some people like them to remain that way.
Note: With the SH579 you lose the battery light on the dash. This upsets some people.
If you use an original style or Electrex or other single phase regulator that uses a reference voltage input (the two wire flat connector has one wire to run the light, the other is a reference) then you need to make sure the reference is accurate. This reference is switched through the ignition switch and runs through the loom. If the reference is low, due to the resistance that naturally builds up in an old loom, the regulator will think the battery voltage is lower than it actually is and it will overcharge the battery. I think it's the white/red wire (or maybe pink?).
You can either check the voltage in this wire or (better) run a jump wire from the battery positive to the connector. I pull the connector apart enough that it's still connected, but you can touch the terminal. Then, with the engine running and while checking the battery voltage, touch the jump wire to the terminal. If the battery voltage drops instantly (and it will if it's overcharging) the easiest fix is to cut the reference wire on the loom side of the two wire flat connector, fit a relay running battery power direct to this wire into the regulator and switch the relay on with the loom side of the reference wire coming from the ignition switch. 906 Paso have done this for years, and I've seen a few Monsters and SS do it.
The SH579 3 phase regulator doesn't use a reference, so fitting one does away with this potential issue.
I've not used a FH series Shendengan mosfet style reg yet, but only because I haven't actually got to order any.
Thanks for all the help, everyone. I actually picked up and installed an electrosport "high performance" stator. I'm not sure exactly what high performance means in this instance, but the fit and finish of the new one is top notch. The copper is all wound very neatly and even coated with some form of epoxy to keep the corrosion from happening on the coils again. It has the oem connector, which I'm not thrilled about, but I'm gonna put a few gallons of dielectric grease on there to keep the terminals from corroding again. The only thing I'm worried about is whether or not I got the engine case sealed properly. The guys at the shop talked me into buying the ridiculous Ducati brand silicone, so that shit better not only seal her up, but give me an extra pony or two. :D
Here's the good looking cajun coating that I'm assuming was causing the problem.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Jervisaurus/IMG00095-20121103-1430.jpg)
Quote from: brad black on November 06, 2012, 01:33:54 AM
i'll put mine in too:
Charging system diagnosis: checks I do.
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Great, Brad [clap]
Printed and added to my workshop manual!