Charging issues narrowed down (with pic)

[Jarvicious]

What do you mean by the wiring?  Remember, I replaced all the spade terminals attached to the three stator wires coming off the motor.  Wires cut, stripped, crimped and greased.  No, I haven't done any voltage testing, or are you implying pulling the side of the motor off and doing a visual check.

[Howie]

As you cut back the wire to the connector on the stator side did you eventually get to copper that was not black?  You also need to test AC voltage from the stator.  You need an AC meter and you are looking for about 30 volts AC at speed.

[Jarvicious]

Oh yeah, the wire itself was fine.  There was just a ton of corrosion around the spade connectors themselves within the plastic housing. 

When I meter them out, can I just ground the black line on the battery or frame and test each individual wire from the stator, or should I test voltage across each wire? 

[ducpainter]

You test across the pairs of yellow wires.

The voltages should all be similar both at idle and at speed

[Jarvicious]

It'll get done when I get back from Wichita 

Benefit:  I get a company vehicle
Con: they make me use it now and then.

[Jarvicious]

Stator is cookified   I'm getting around 15 volts a/c at around 5-6 rpm and slightly less the lower the rpms.  I didn't check the other wire as it was kind of hard to get to with the meter, but it doesn't look good.  Time to call Ricks again. 

For peace of mind, I'm looking for anywhere from 60-80Vac, right?  I'm assuming that because (bike fully charged) I'm only getting ~12Vdc at the battery while the bike is running and that Ricks professionally tested my R/R, AND that this thing is only putting out a fraction of what the bike needs that I should go ahead and drain the oil and pull the side cover, yes?  Argh.

Tally of things that HAD to be replaced this year (not even the stuff I wanted to upgrade):

- fork seals and bushings
- stator
- front and rear sprockets and chain
- headlight assembly

[Howie]

How did you do the stator check?

[Jarvicious]

I metered across the yellow wires coming out of the stator, in Vac two at a time in different configurations.  Even for kicks, I metered the voltage off each individual wire with the black probe grounded on the frame.  I took Ohm measurements about around .4 between each of the wires. 

[Howie]

I was hoping you did something wrong.  Sorry, stator time.

[brad black]

i'll go into bat for the original connector.  i see very, very few of them fried.  run them on a single phase system with only two terminals in them and it's a guaranteed fail.  but 3 phase systems they're fine.

soldering is a pita when you have to fix someone's non fix.

[Jarvicious]

I was hoping you did something wrong.  Sorry, stator time.

That's why I posted up.  I was hoping someone was going to say "No no, it's volts DC!".  No such luck.

i'll go into bat for the original connector.  i see very, very few of them fried.  run them on a single phase system with only two terminals in them and it's a guaranteed fail.  but 3 phase systems they're fine.

soldering is a pita when you have to fix someone's non fix.

I'm not sure what all that means

[oldndumb]

Although this link is from a Speed Triple site, it is well onto its way as being the most endorsed and referenced charge system online forum thread. Don't let the Triumph connotation bother you 'cause lecktricity can't tell one marque from another. 

I'm new here, so maybe cut me some slack if it has been linked to before. 

http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html#post1214215

[He Man]

i have a spare stator if you are looking for a cheap one.

i snipped the wires since i needed teh connector end. there is about 6 inches of wire coming off the engine.

[brad black]

i'll put mine in too:

Charging system diagnosis: checks I do.

Visual:

Check regulator - single phase (2 yellow wires) often leak black goo.
Check yellow wires from alternator for melting and connector burning.  The 3 pin white terminal will melt if used as a two pin connector on a single phase system as per the upgrade kits.
The yellow wires often get green corrosion on them under the insulation, which has usually turned whitish and brittle.  I tend to cut it back until it's nice and new looking if possible, but it's not really necessary ime.
Check other wires out of regulator to battery.
Check maxi fuse.

Battery: 

Charge with a real charger (not a trickle charger) and load test once charged.  If it won't hold load, replace it.  As has been said, you need a fully charged battery to diagnose the system.


Multimeter:

Check for continuity between the two or three alternator wires.  Should have some with very low resistance.
Check for continuity between alternator wires and ground.  Should be none.
Check for continuity between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery positive terminal.  This will also show up a blown maxi fuse.
Check for continuity between the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system.

Check alternator ac output between yellow wires.  Should get to 70vac fairly quickly.  On a 3 phase system check between all combinations of two yellows.
Fit a dc rectifier between the yellows and battery.  This directly charges the battery, and will show you whether or not the alternator can produce under load, which the ac test doesn't.  Battery voltage should climb over 15v at quite low rpm.  Don't hold it above 15v for too long, but certainly make sure it can get there.  I usually raise the rpm until I see 16 or 17, and then shut it off straight away.

If everything so far has passed, replace the regulator.

I always use round bullet terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection in the same size as the originals.  They're very reliable if kept clean and lubed.  Do not use flat spade terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection on a single phase system.  Even when not in a connector, I've never seen them last.  Always cover the alternator to regulator terminals with heat shrink too.  Pretty much lube every terminal and connector, and heat shrink all bullet or individual terminal connections.

Some people like to solder the yellow alternator to regulator connections.  I don't, as it's something you can't undo and reconnect easily without the correct tools if you have to.  The round bullet terminals are so reliable I see no point.

Once you've replaced the regulator, check the voltage at the battery with the engine running.  You should get 14.3 or so v.

If not, (I always do this check anyway) check the voltage drop between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery.  This will show you how much voltage drop there is in the wiring loom (including the maxi fuse).  It's common to see 0.5V and sometimes more here. 
Do the same check for the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system.  This is usually much lower, but again definitely worth checking.
I often run a jump wire on a single phase system from regulator body to the battery negative terminal and check the battery voltage with the jump on and off.  That will tell you if the earth at the regulator body is bad.

If you get voltage drops I run extra wires from the regulator to the battery.  Given I always replace single phase regulators with the 3 phase Shendengan SH579 that is fitted to the 3 phase bikes as std (just cut one of the yellows at the regulator short under the sheath and leave unconnected) you don't need to earth the regulator body.  But if there is a wire there you might as well fit it to a mounting screw.  Saves people seeing a wire dangling and thinking something is wrong.  Just run extra earth wires from the regulator 4 pin connector (2 greens are earth) back to the battery.  I usually go to the frame ground point as well if it's on the way, such as on a pre 2002 Monster.  Just make sure you scrape the frame paint off and grease the terminals and frame.

For the positive wires I run from the 2 red wires on the regulator 4 pin connector back to the maxi fuse (using new terminals) and from the maxi fuse to the battery.  People who know more than me about this stuff say there's no need to include a fuse in this circuit, but I like to keep it if I can (i.e., have the right terminals)

This way you end up with one more terminal per post at the battery, but sometimes you pick up more voltage than you'd expect.  With a fresh SH579, a good battery and fresh wiring I always see 14.2 â€" 14.3V at the battery.

I leave the old maxi fuse terminals connected, just cover them with heat shrink and zip tie out of the way.  Same with positive (red) and two wire flat connectors that went to the old single phase regulator.  That way the loom is still original as some people like them to remain that way.

Note: With the SH579 you lose the battery light on the dash.  This upsets some people.

If you use an original style or Electrex or other single phase regulator that uses a reference voltage input (the two wire flat connector has one wire to run the light, the other is a reference) then you need to make sure the reference is accurate.  This reference is switched through the ignition switch and runs through the loom.  If the reference is low, due to the resistance that naturally builds up in an old loom, the regulator will think the battery voltage is lower than it actually is and it will overcharge the battery.  I think it's the white/red wire (or maybe pink?).

You can either check the voltage in this wire or (better) run a jump wire from the battery positive to the connector.  I pull the connector apart enough that it's still connected, but you can touch the terminal.  Then, with the engine running and while checking the battery voltage, touch the jump wire to the terminal.  If the battery voltage drops instantly (and it will if it's overcharging) the easiest fix is to cut the reference wire on the loom side of the two wire flat connector, fit a relay running battery power direct to this wire into the regulator and switch the relay on with the loom side of the reference wire coming from the ignition switch.  906 Paso have done this for years, and I've seen a few Monsters and SS do it.

The SH579 3 phase regulator doesn't use a reference, so fitting one does away with this potential issue.

I've not used a FH series Shendengan mosfet style reg yet, but only because I haven't actually got to order any.

[Jarvicious]

Thanks for all the help, everyone.  I actually picked up and installed an electrosport "high performance" stator.  I'm not sure exactly what high performance means in this instance, but the fit and finish of the new one is top notch.  The copper is all wound very neatly and even coated with some form of epoxy to keep the corrosion from happening on the coils again.  It has the oem connector, which I'm not thrilled about, but I'm gonna put a few gallons of dielectric grease on there to keep the terminals from corroding again.  The only thing I'm worried about is whether or not I got the engine case sealed properly.  The guys at the shop talked me into buying the ridiculous Ducati brand silicone, so that shit better not only seal her up, but give me an extra pony or two.   

Here's the good looking cajun coating that I'm assuming was causing the problem.