Ducati Monster Forum

So I've come to the official conclusion that the brakes on the 620 suck!

I've had my little monster for years and have become quite attached to it, I've used it for commuting, touring, scratching through the hills on the weekends as well as the occasional track day and I've invested way too much in modding it already to even think about selling it, so I'm happy to keep spending money on it (even though it would prob make more sense to upgrade)

It's last outing was a track day a little while ago, and whilst a I had a blast I had no confidence braking late into corners, the brake lever has always felt spongy and the bike has never pulled up with much authority at all. I've always just accepted it as is and haven't really xpected too much out of the entry level monster.
Hoevever, I'm mid way through the next set of mods ar the moment (lowering gauges and light) and have run into clearance options with the stock master cylinder; I started trying to reroute lines and reangle the gauges , but then had the bright idea of getting rid of the stock m/c and getting a smaller radial mount job. But why stop p0there, let's sort out the 620s braking problems once and for all.

I want better more progressive lever feel, and a bit more strength in the way the bike pulls up. I'vem thinking at this stage
- radial m/c (brembo or nissin)
- better quality rotors
- better quality pad
- maybe this will be enough of an increas without going to 4 pot calipers??

Has anyone done this already, and if so any suggestions for what components to go with. I've had a bit of a browse on yoyodyne, but unsure of the specifics I should be looking for.

First step is different pads and a proper bleed after changing your brake fluid. 

A brake pad guide from our sponsor Ca Cycleworks:
http://ca-cycleworks.com/products/brakes/brake-pads (http://ca-cycleworks.com/products/brakes/brake-pads)

I did the 4-pot/4-pad SBK calipers, narrow-band Brembo rotors, ferodo CP211 pads, larger diameter coffin m/c and new custom lines on my M695.  Awesome braking with good feedback.  Lots of us have upgraded the brake components.  Can get expensive.  Make sure your suspension is squared away.

When you say "pulled up" do you mean bite?  You might get enough improvement with a pad type change, rotor surface hone and radial m/c.  Street pads usually don't have much bite, especially if they're glazed up and have a ton of miles.

I've never regretted my brake upgrades!

BK

Thanks Howie, I'll email Chris and see what he recommends also

Thanks, yep suspension sorted - it was the first thing I did to the bike.

What did your upgrade set you back? I was just checking out calipers and m/c's - I see they don't come cheap!

Was a long time ago.  New calipers were way cheaper then.  I went with all new components, but you can save some money with used parts.  Honestly I don't remember the total cost, but you could roughly tabulate it from yoyodyne.  A sorted out suspension will help minimize the consequences of "grabbing a handfull" with uprated brakes.  My M695 below.

BK

(http://i49.tinypic.com/250peer.jpg)

Calipers like those cold be sourced from a 749 or 999 as well as the master for reduced costs. Of course you'd need to give 'em a clean and be sure you're getting something good if you go used.

Custom lines are going to needed. 

I started by replacing the pads to EBC HH sintered, since  you mention you would like to avoid the 4pot caliper, I will safely assume you have the 2pot small calipers, if so, get yourself 2 sets of FA181HH EBC pads, 2 M626XC wave rotors and good DOT4 fluid and your braking will improve . . . at first I only did the pads with the OEM 300mm rotors and braking improved then I replaced the OEM fluid . .  for the rear just get FA47 set of pads and if you want to replace the rotor then MD627C . . .

Now I have RCS masters, 4Pot calipers and galfer 320mm front rotors and also rear galfer

What advantages would 4 pot calipers offer over the stock 2 pot, assuming I have upgraded to a radial master cylinder, quality pads and rotors?

much better braking . . . You can use them with the coffin master to "start getting used to them" and then install the radial . . . If you decide to go radial, just remember the mirrors mounts unless you already have bar end mirrors!!! radials dont come with mirror mounts . . . Here, check these out:
http://www.cyclebrakes.net/AMAG026-4-1.aspx (http://www.cyclebrakes.net/AMAG026-4-1.aspx) + http://www.cyclebrakes.net/AMAG026-1-4-2-1.aspx (http://www.cyclebrakes.net/AMAG026-1-4-2-1.aspx)

or[if I am not mistaken, this is the ebay store of one of the sponsors]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-748-916-BREMBO-FRONT-BRAKE-MASTER-GENUINE-NEW-/121062162720?hash=item1c2fde0120&item=121062162720&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-748-916-BREMBO-FRONT-BRAKE-MASTER-GENUINE-NEW-/121062162720?hash=item1c2fde0120&item=121062162720&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr) + http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-748-916-996-KTM-APRILIA-BREMBO-BRAKE-RESERVOIR-/121061939793?hash=item1c2fda9a51&item=121061939793&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-748-916-996-KTM-APRILIA-BREMBO-BRAKE-RESERVOIR-/121061939793?hash=item1c2fda9a51&item=121061939793&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr) [he sells it as a kit also, master plus reservoir + mounting]

or

http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.8210.10 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.8210.10)

with all these application you can still use your OEM lines, just play a bit with the banjo/fitting at master and you're good to go . . . I did an evolution, went like pads then custom lines; then MS4 masters+4pot calipers then back to coffin masters to RCS master and custom lines . . . best set up, RCS + 4pot calipers with FA244HH pads . . .

Most probably you would like to even things out at the end and get this, http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.8101.10 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10.8101.10)

just shoot away any questions, I have a M620 . . . just remember, if you go from handle bar to clip ons, the lines could be "too long" or awkwardly angled[being there]

In my opinion, more pots can provide more even clamping and therefore potentially better feedback and more even pad wear.  The caliper design itself might also simply offer more pad options from various manufacturers due to the volume of bikes it might have been used on.  Some calipers have very limited pad options.  Similar concept with the 4-pad variant...one pad per pot and more leading edges for additional bite.  Some caliper designs are also more rigid (e.g., designs with a top bridge between the halves).  Pretty quickly you get into territory where it only realistically matters on a track at speeds/conditions that the little monsters like my M695 will never encounter.

Unless you're going for ductile iron rotors, I don't know if there's much difference between the various stainless steel types from a braking performance standpoint.  I see it as mostly a cosmetic thing, or sometimes required to pair with a particular caliper to get the right offset and diameter.  Some are definitely heavier/lighter than others and that can affect rotating and unsprung weight - try not to add weight.

...dm620 beat me to the punch...just some additional thoughts above.

BK

4 pot requires 320mm. rotors, not the 300s the bike came with.  Yep, 4 pot will have better bite and be less flexible than the factory floater.

howie, there are some 40mm 4 pots that could work on the 300mm with the adapters . .  who knows, you just woke up my mind . . .

somewhere I read someone had done it . . .

Yeah, there are, but it would take some searching and work.  Off hand I have no idea what would work with those forks and offset.

Thanks for your help everyone.

I've sourced a caliper and master cylinder setup off a S4 and have ordered a set of braketech rotors off ca cycleworks.

Should be a big improvement over the stock brakes!

with those rotors and pads? you should be doing endos . . .be carefull

Excellent setup.  What pad are you going with?

BK

I'm in the same boat. Decided my 2005 620 brakes arent cutting it when a car going the other way made a left turn in front of me in the middle of the street (not at the intersection) saw me then panicked and braked (essentially blocking the road) while I was doing about 30mph. I had about 3 car lengths to stop and braked (front and back brakes more front as there was a little "endo" going on. I didnt want to slam the brakes and lose control or lock up but I was not able to completely stop and ended up slowing to about 10mph before hitting the passenger side of the vehicle. I flew over the handle bars into the passenger window. I was geared up (helmet, padded jacket, gloves, boots) so I was not hurt at all, my bike was not damaged in any way so I was happy about that. Cops came and gave the driver a ticket for not yielding right of way. (Thats police talk for being a dumbass [leo]) Anyway I'm wondering if better brakes on my 2005 620 would've made a difference. I replaced the rotors and pads last year myself. I'm due for my 12,000 mile service in about 600 miles so I'm pretty sure I'll get a brake fluid flush. Not sure if that will help. I'm also nervous about upgrading the brakes and having brakes that are beyond my control and stop too hard. Obviously there would be an adjustment period. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Duck Off . . . will assume you have the small diameter rotors and 2 pot calipers . . .I started out replacing the pads for HH sintered from EBC and DOT4 brake fluid . .  big improvement . .  after that, M1000 masters, even better, then 4 pot calipers and 320mm rotors . . . had to go back to coffin master for a while, now, RCS brake master ...... endo time big time .. . had to practice in a parking lot with different settings between 18~20mm adjustability . ..  go for 848/1098/1198 masters or SF masters . . first and get used to them first . .

I put 4 pot brembo calipers and 320mm rotors on mine, with a 16mm coffin master.

It really transformed the brakes. Huge improve.

Don't worry about grabbing too much brake, the 4 pots are really controllable and progressive. More so than the little 2 pots.

See if you can find an older 620 to pull parts from. My 2004 620 came stock with gold 4 pot calipers (same as my 748) and a metal tank.  ;D

If I can source some used Brembo 4-piston calipers  (found some Gold Calipers off an M750 2002) can I use my existing brake lines, rotors and Master/Slave Cylinders and essentially just replace the calipers?

yes, if, the rotors are 320mm

For those of you guys with the upgraded brakes would you say it is more beneficial to:

-change to 4 pot calipers with rotors
or
-change the master cylinder, more aggressive brake pads



for those with the 4 pot calipers are those 2 pad or 4 pad? If i'm not mistaken you theres 4pot 2 pad calipers and 4 pot 2 pad calipers.

found this on the forum. Very informative...

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=14127.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=14127.0)

What bikes are suitable donors for 320mm rotors that will work on the 620?

you can get the calipers and rotors of an 998, any Monster with 65mm caliper mounting, SS bikes,  . ..

My calipers came of a 998 and the first rotors too . . . MY01

Don't forget about front suspension upgrades with improved braking. After just a pad swap on my '04 620, Gold line 4 piston, I got alot of pulsation from the front end when stopping.  Putting a zip tie on the forks, I found I was bottoming the forks even under light braking.  I have sence installed a set of 998 forks with .85 springs.  No more pulsation & I am able to apply more braking pressure. I have a set of Diavel radial master cylinders I need to get around to installing as well.  I expect the monster to have similar braking performance to my 848 after that.

I hear you 100% on this.

I have some 320mm Brembo snowflake rotors on the way.  Here's hoping that they fit!

as long as they're 6 hole . . .

They arrived today.  6 hole as shown in the ad.  [thumbsup]

[thumbsup] [thumbsup]

The calipers I had for this were missing the pinch bolts, so I ordered replacements in stainless from Pro-Bolt.  They arrived yesterday so I put the calipers back together, and all of a sudden the OEM mounting bolts look like utter garbage.  And I expect that the caliper mounting bolts are going to be the same story.

They don't list the Monster 620 or the older superbikes on their website, but they do have this guide:

Pro-Bolt rotor bolt guide (https://www.probolt-usa.com/fileuploader/download/download/?d=0&file=custom%2Fupload%2FFile-1447766637.pdf).

The bike is in storage right now and I don't have ready access to it to pull parts and take measurements.  From the photos of various Monster and Brembo snowflake bolts & rotors I've found online, it looks like the LSSDISCDUC10 would probably work.  Any thoughts?

Don't know exactly which bolts you're referring to, but watch the bolt grade and specs for critical applications.  Some of the SS stuff out there is brittle and not well suited...

BK

This is solid advice.  I expect high quality from Pro-Bolt, and what I'm looking at are bolts that are specified for the intended application.

Do not use anything less than A4 stainless.  Even that high grade stainless is insufficient to compare to 10.9

Most of the pinch bolts are 10.9 or 12.8 alloy. 

if you use A2 stainless, give me an email so I can buy a life insurance policy on you.

http://www.anzor.com.au/tensile-strength-comparison-chart (http://www.anzor.com.au/tensile-strength-comparison-chart)

All stainless fasteners from Pro-Bolt are 316, which is supposedly equivalent to A4, but it looks like there are multiple grades of 316 ands some of them are equivalent to A2.  From the chart you provided, 316 is definitely lower tensile strength than 10.9 or 12.9 (700-800 MPa vs. 1034-1200 MPa).

I've been looking for stories/evidence of failure of Pro-Bolt stainless fasteners in brake applications and not found any, but I'm not crazy about the idea of reducing the safety margin when it comes to brake-related parts.  Thanks for the pointer.

What's stressing me out about this, other than the money already spent on SS pinch bolts, is that Brembo won't sell replacement OEM pinch bolts (or anything else to service the calipers), Pro-Bolt sells SS pinch bolts specifically for this application but they're apparently far under spec, so the only option that's apparently safe is titanium, which is really pricey.

I made the purchase of the SS bolts on the strength of Pro-Bolt's reputation and this description on their website:


I've contacted their sales department for more info on specs etc.

I guess it depends on what grade stainless (and true quality of the stated material). I've also seen crappy Ti bolts from a dodgy source. At least Pro Bolt is a well established company that communicates with customers.
My dealer at least has new mounting bolts in stock. I noticed they went to silver zinc at some stage rather than the older style gold zinc. Fresh bolts really do tidy up the look.

I got some screws at Mcaster Carr . . .Made in Germany 10.9

Thanks for the pointer.

Here's a 12.9 with "ultra corrosion resistant coating". (http://www.mcmaster.com/#91274a154/=10u7pjx)

$4.40 per pack of 10  [thumbsup]

the ones I got have a hex head instead of either torx or allen

That's a very good link.  I wonder what the coating is.

There is a coating called Dacromet which is the gold standard for alloy metal coating on fasteners.  I have a bunch of M8 and M6 in Dacromet and it's awesome.

Ducati has used yellow zinc 12.9 bolts on all their SBKs for years.

OEM bolts are 10.9.

Not relevant for this application on a 620, but '01 and earlier with a mechanical speedo drive need low head bolts, at least on that side.

That's helpful.  The Pro-Bolt ones specify that they're low head, and looking at the calipers it wasn't clear to me why that would matter - other than looks.

I don't know if this is helpful, but the product page says:

Just to clarify, I was referring to the bolts that hold the rotor to the wheel.

OK, that makes much more sense.  Thanks.

My bolts arrived yesterday.  They were sent across the border by Purolator, so I suspect I may get beat up on brokerage fees.  We'll see.

I did a test fit last night.  They fit fine, but they're ugly compared to the OEM bolts - they're horrific compared to the sessy SS Pro-Bolt ones.  Still, they're the right size and strength and the coating should protect them out in weather.

oh yeah, i was referring to the caliper bolts. 

I gave up on the old calipers and picked up another set when I found a good deal on eBay.  The bike went on the bench yesterday, we'll know soon if everything fits & works as it should.

OK, I just got a call from the mechanic, and according to him this stuff won't fit.  He said that the left-right offset on the rotors is wrong, and that the larger rotors won't work with the calipers unless the caliper mounts are changed as well.  I only bought the rotors because my research led me to believe that they were required for the calipers to work.

Pretty f'n disappointing overall.

What calipers are you using?

Here's the eBay listing (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/231949909306).

From the ad:

No reason those calipers and rotors shouldn't work together if they're as advertised.

Hundreds of people have done this brake upgrade.

you need the 320mm rotors . . get them new, try our sponsors for rotors and pads

those calipers are the ones I am using . . .

here for options,  http://www.monsterparts.com/c/CD-Brakes/CD-Brakes.html

I have 320mm 6 bolt snowflake rotors.

Did you get new rotors?

I believe the offset should be 15mm.

Here's mine, M620 with 4pot Goldline calipers and Galfer rotors

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7081/7031847963_7dc6114848_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/bHo4pZ)Gina 2 (https://flic.kr/p/bHo4pZ)

dp, if he has either SS or SBK996/998 snowflake rotors, he should be OK with the 15mm offset . . . BUT, I still recommend, getting new rotors and new brake fluid

OK, I called the mechanic back to get 100% clear on what he was seeing.  When he reviewed the parts again on the phone with me, he changed his position and said that they would actually fit.  However, the rotors are right at the minimum thickness, and the calipers are in rough shape - so his recommendation was to stick with the stock setup - it's lower spec but in better condition.  My plan is to let him flush and reassemble the stock setup, and I'll tidy up the calipers & pistons and pick up some new pads, and maybe revisit the swap after the riding season is over.

Thanks again to all for the info.  [thumbsup]