This is long. I am sorry but there are cliff notes at the end. :)
In January I bought a 07 S4R Testastretta. It was Theo's S4Rt for those who know it. Theo made a video for me before I bought it of the bike starting and idling. I figured I was safe to buy it. Ever since I got it though it has had problems. It arrived with a dead Shorai battery. I charged it the way Shorai said to and the battery was good to go. I went to start the bike and it just tries and tires but won't fire. The starter was going and going but nothing. I tried this a bunch of times and finally it fires. Woo! I am excited to finally hear it in person and the bike dies in 4 seconds or so. I'm used to giving throttle on my 2v so I figured I would do that with the 4v. Well I forgot it had a stepper motor and I didn't need to do this. Funny thing though when you barely touch the throttle it would spin much faster but still not fire.
After several attempts I decide to look at the plugs. I pull the horizontal plug out and it is black and wet. I figured I flooded the engine. Quick search online for these plugs show the local O'Reilly's has them. The plugs in it though are NGK CR9E which later on I find out are the wrong plugs. Before I found out though I put the new CR9E plugs in and tried again. Hit the starter again kept trying to fire up. Finally it did though, a burst of smoke from the exhaust and I am warming it up. It is running as long as I keep touching the throttle. Finally my new baby is alive! So I go and ride it up and down the street real quick without gear. I decided to go test ride it. Put the bike in the garage, turn it off and run upstairs to get my gear. When I come back down I'm all excited, go to start the bike and it won't fire up again. I check the battery and it still has enough power and should be good.
Stressed I decide to try again the next day. This was actually the day I had planned on registering it at DMV. So the next morning I get up and decide to try to start the bike 45min before my appointment just in case it doesn't start. Sure enough it doesn't. So keep trying and trying. I got it to start once but it died right away. Finally get it to start and I am off. DMV is only 3 miles away so I wasn't too worried. Go in do my thing they need me to take it to the back to get the VIN verified. I asked if I could get them to go to the bike and they answered with a big NO. That is not our policy, you much be within camera view etc.… So anyways I go back to the bike and amazingly it starts. I ride the bike over and get it checked. I go to start it to move it back and it won't start. I didn't want to press my luck so I pushed it back to my parking spot. After the bike is fully in my name and me wondering if this was a wise purchase I set off to go home. The bike wouldn't start. After 20minutes I get it to finally go and I head home. I had to keep the RPMs up otherwise it wanted to die. This is when I decide I want to just take it to the dealership instead of messing it up.
Here is where it really gets frustrating. I took it to a local dealership and it has been there for 2+ months while they try to figure out what is wrong with it. Most of the delays have been waiting for test parts. Regardless the bike is still not fixed. Here is what they have done.
When I took it in I explained the backstory of me getting the bike and what I tried. I kept it simple. I said it won't start easy but if it does start it wants to die. I told as much as I could about the bikes history. They wrote me up for an hour of diagnosis and said they could fix it within that hour they would. If it required more they would call me. I get a call the day of my appointment (I had dropped the bike off a few days early). They said it looks like it just needs the TPS reset, throttle bodies synced and trim adjustments done. The bill would be for 1.5 hours of work, which includes the diagnosis they already did. I was happy and said go for it. I get a call back and said it is running better but want to check the injectors. I said go ahead and do it. Afterwards they call back and said the vertical injector is working at maybe 15% and recommend a full system fuel cleaning. I get the quote, I think the total for the work already done and the cleaning came to around $350. I asked if that would fix it. They said yes that should be it. So I said OK, do it.
I get a call a couple days later with bad news. The service guy explains the work they did fixed the running issue, but now the starting problem came back. Apparently the bike started and was running great in the shop. The tech was checking it out and everything seemed great. He shut the bike off and came to it about an hour later. He got his gear on to take it out for a test ride and the bike wouldn't start.
So from there they have tried to find the problem and had no luck. They have narrowed it down to a lack of spark issue when starting. How they explained it to me is when you hit the starter button the bike turns, starter goes like it should but there is not a lot of spark. Keep in mind the right plugs are now in it. The tech said he changed those when all the fuel system clean was done. First they said it was probably the ECU. They brought in a tester DP ECU and swapped it out with my DP ECU. Problem still existed so ECU is not the problem.
Not sure exactly what this means but they said they disengaged the starting system and started the bike manually and it will run just fine. When you try to start it with the starter it has a lack of spark issue. Another tech they talked to said it is the starter, don't ask him why just said try a new starter because that one is probably taking power away from the spark. So they ordered a new starter and tried that. The problem still existed.
Now here we are a little over 2 months they have had the bike. Most the delays have been waiting for parts or waiting to hear back from their other techs and their Ducati Rep on what to do. Next they are talking wiring harness which I think is crazy. A new wiring harness is $1000. You have got to be kidding me. Where do I go from here? A lot of friends I talk to ask why I still have the bike there. Well frankly because they seem just as frustrated as I do. Also beyond the first $350 they are not charging me for all this other work because it hasn't fixed the bike. So they are being very reasonable.
Any ideas what it could be?
Cliffs
1. Buy 07 S4R,dead battery, charge battery, battery good
2. Bike won't start, fouled plugs, new plugs, bike starts, runs bad, wrong plugs later fixed by tech
3. Trouble starting, turns slow, slight touch of throttle spins it faster.
4. Trouble starting, trouble idling, give up take to dealer end of January
5. Dealer says tps, trim levels and balance throttle bodies should be good to go
6. Bike will start but not idle, dealer recommends fuel system clean, do it, bike idles now
7. Tech lets bike sit an hour, comes back bike won't start.
8. Tech looks into a bunch of things says ECU. Order ecu, new ecu same problem.
9. Tech tries starting bike without starter, works, runs good
10. Bike has lack of spark with starter starting the bike.
11. Another tech recommends new starter, order starter, new starter same problem
12. Tech is stumped, Ducati Rep stumped. Now thinking new wiring harness
13. It has now been 2+ months from when they started. Most delays were for parts.
Now I am sure there are some little things I have missed but that is the jest of it.
[bang]
Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump/injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.
Quote from: koko64 on April 06, 2013, 06:39:45 AM
Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump, injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.
I agree. Try a regular battery. When you charged the Shorai did you use a balance charger? No spark points to a weak battery when a bump start will get it running.
Yep, another vote for possible bad battery. Ask the dealer to try a known, good stock AGM battery.
Quote from: koko64 on April 06, 2013, 06:39:45 AM
Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump/injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.
I agree also... sounds like the only thing left it can be... all the earth contacts are clean? really sounds as thought the critical systems of the bike don't get enough juice when the starter is draining it.. I have a M1100 with a Shorai and it is a little tempermental with starting sometine also.. unpredictable but it always starts after maybe a few attempts sounding just like you have described... oh and the faster cranking when you open the throttle.... it is because you have taken load off the starter by opening the throttle and reducing the load of the engine creating vacuum. Good luck and hope you get it sorted. Keep us posted.
Quote from: koko64 on April 06, 2013, 06:39:45 AM
Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump/injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.
The tech is doing all the testing with their own battery. I think it was a Yuasa. I stopped in mid February and saw a tender lead going to the bike. They had their own battery in it with my Shorai sitting near by.
Quote from: Bill in OKC on April 06, 2013, 06:52:56 AM
I agree. Try a regular battery. When you charged the Shorai did you use a balance charger? No spark points to a weak battery when a bump start will get it running.
I used a 2a car charger to get the voltage up then finished with Shorai's own charger. As per their instructions. Well they said 5a charger, but I said I only had one that would do 2a, 10a, or 50a. The guy on the phone said do the 2a it will just take longer. Stay with it and monitor it with a multimeter. Once it was near a certain range to switch to the Shoari charger.
I think I may still need to send it to Shorai to get it checked out though.
Sorry to hear.
Whats the rate for autoelectricians over there? Was thinking of the $1000 loom if theres a starter wiring issue.
Did the correct plugs ever get installed?
Quote from: ducpainter on April 06, 2013, 11:13:38 AM
Did the correct plugs ever get installed?
The tech put in Champion RG4HC plugs. I called one day when I realized it had the wrong plugs in it. The tech said that was one of the first things he noticed and changed.
Quote from: koko64 on April 06, 2013, 11:11:08 AM
Sorry to hear.
Whats the rate for autoelectricians over there? Was thinking of the $1000 loom if theres a starter wiring issue.
I'm not sure. When they said $1000 I said that is crazy for a bike that was running just fine. It has to be something simpler than a whole new harness.
Is the fuel in the tank the same fuel that was in there in January?
Did they swap out the relays?
Are they absolutely sure that the battery ground cable is good, and has good connections?
Quote from: ducpainter on April 06, 2013, 11:29:45 AM
Is the fuel in the tank the same fuel that was in there in January?
Quote from: Speeddog on April 06, 2013, 11:35:36 AM
Did they swap out the relays?
Are they absolutely sure that the battery ground cable is good, and has good connections?
Not sure I will ask them today. I plan on going by there.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 06, 2013, 11:29:45 AM
Is the fuel in the tank the same fuel that was in there in January?
Gas was changed out
Quote from: Speeddog on April 06, 2013, 11:35:36 AM
Did they swap out the relays?
Are they absolutely sure that the battery ground cable is good, and has good connections?
They swapped all the relays. They also made their own ground cable to bypass that.
The service manager said when they bypassed the starting system it bump starts and runs fine. The issue is an intermittent spark issue when using the starter. The tech was off today. They are going to talk again Tuesday and see what other options they have without trying a whole new harness.
The wiring harness has defiantly already been tested to some extent. There were splices here and there.
(http://www.mikemo.org/bikes/S4RtApril-6th-1.jpg)
I've not seen it a lot, but I've had a few bikes with intermittent or poorly timed spark when the ECU voltage goes low during cranking due to a bad ground.
this sucks man. I hope it all works out for you. I hope the dealer you're at is reputable and not trying to take you to the cleaners?? We had a Ducati dealer here in Toronto that used to try and scam customers by charging for parts that never got installed. (eg. Oil change service, and the filter never got changed). They are now shut down.
Hey, I just read your post, and while I don't have any brilliant quick fix, I just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
First off, to reinforce what you already know, throwing a harness at it is absolutely crazy. That's like buying and installing new cylinder heads because your valves are out of adjustment.
Now I don't want to be excessively hard on the shop, because I know that these situations can be frustrating, when you're losing money hand over fist on a problem you can't figure out. With that said, from what you've written, it doesn't sound like much diagnostics is actually going on; they seem to be just throwing parts at it. I know, everyone's guilty of that now and then (some more than others), but especially when you're getting your parts from Italy, throwing parts at it is a very inefficient method.
Does this shop have oscilloscopes and people who know how to use them? I don't know how well equipped a typical dealer's shop is, but I think that this problem would be much easier to solve with an automotive scope and related accessories on hand. Here's where I would start if I was troubleshooting your bike, starting from the assumption of an intermittent ignition problem (an assumption worth double checking):
1 - Monitor the voltage at the battery during and after attempted starting. Is it dropping unacceptably low while cranking? How about afterwards, what does it look like? Low voltage while cranking would point me towards a possible battery issue, low voltage afterwards would point me towards some other component that's draining power when it shouldn't be.
2 - If voltage at the battery was significantly lower after trying to start than it was before, I'd visually check and/or put a current clamp on likely candidates until I found where the current is going. One prime suspect to check out is the starter solenoid. If it wasn't breaking the circuit to the starter completely, that'd cause low voltage across the board.
3 - If the battery seems good and it's not draining excessive current after starting, I would go to the coils next. I'd backprobe the signal from the ECU to each of the coils and take a look with the scope. Is it sending any signal to the coils? What is the voltage level of the signals? Are they consistent?
4 - If the coil signals look about right, I'd also measure the timing signal from the pick up coils to check the timing of the spark, and to make sure that the timing signals look right (I'm not sure that the modern bikes use pick up coils, but either those or their modern equivalents)
5 - As a final check on the coils, you could measure the current in the ignition system using a scope to look for possible problems.
6 - If the ECU wasn't sending a consistent signal, I'd check the voltage at the ECU during starting, and then check all of the safety switch / sensor inputs as well.
Anyway, a long winded response I know, but I think that you could zero in on the problem area pretty quickly with those sorts of tests. I'll refrain from giving my best guess on what it could be, because it'd just be a wild guess, but speeddog's hypothesis seems worth looking into.
Best of luck, and here's to hoping you get it back on the road soon! [beer]
Quote from: Speeddog on April 06, 2013, 10:47:42 PM
I've not seen it a lot, but I've had a few bikes with intermittent or poorly timed spark when the ECU voltage goes low during cranking due to a bad ground.
I passed on this information and they said reinforcing the ground was one of the first things they did. He also said maybe it is something they should revisit again.
Quote from: COP TZR on April 06, 2013, 11:40:50 PM
this sucks man. I hope it all works out for you. I hope the dealer you're at is reputable and not trying to take you to the cleaners?? We had a Ducati dealer here in Toronto that used to try and scam customers by charging for parts that never got installed. (eg. Oil change service, and the filter never got changed). They are now shut down.
They do have a great rep. The cleaners part has crossed my mind but I feel like I can trust them as crazy as it sounds. I went by once in February on short notice and again last Saturday unannounced. Both times they were friendly and took me back to look at the bike right away.
Quote from: bond0087 on April 09, 2013, 04:52:38 PM
Hey, I just read your post, and while I don't have any brilliant quick fix, I just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
<snip>
Anyway, a long winded response I know, but I think that you could zero in on the problem area pretty quickly with those sorts of tests. I'll refrain from giving my best guess on what it could be, because it'd just be a wild guess, but speeddog's hypothesis seems worth looking into.
Best of luck, and here's to hoping you get it back on the road soon! [beer]
That is a lot of information, thank you. I will pass it on. Most of my ideas are met with 'yes we tried that when we ...' but perhaps there is something new here. I would be interested in your best guess too just for the hell of it.
My computer is probably getting tired of me Googling starting problems with s4rs and s4r testas'.
Just my 2 cents but sounds like your going to have more invested than the bike is worth. Cut your losses and part it out. You will make make than enough to buy another S4RS. If the bike is at a reputable dealer and after 2 months they don't have it figured out, pack it in bro. Throwing parts at it gets real expensive real quick and seldom solves the problem. I bought a low mileage '04 S4R, bike ran great for 500 miles. Then the similar issues as you have began. The dealer said it's electrical, but I refused to accept that. I decided to pull the tank off, and found that the fuel lines in the tank had turned to mush do to Ethenol in US fuel. Replaced in tank fuel lines especially and fuel pump from a Ford F-250 (spare tank pump). Runs like a champ now. Just my 2 cents and good luck. I feel your pain.
Kind of real shady of Theo to sell a bike and not mention problems [thumbsdown]. This is one board that I love cause people are real honest and helpful.
Quote from: ccran on April 12, 2013, 09:19:21 AM
Just my 2 cents but sounds like your going to have more invested than the bike is worth. Cut your losses and part it out. You will make make than enough to buy another S4RS. If the bike is at a reputable dealer and after 2 months they don't have it figured out, pack it in bro. Throwing parts at it gets real expensive real quick and seldom solves the problem. I bought a low mileage '04 S4R, bike ran great for 500 miles. Then the similar issues as you have began. The dealer said it's electrical, but I refused to accept that. I decided to pull the tank off, and found that the fuel lines in the tank had turned to mush do to Ethenol in US fuel. Replaced in tank fuel lines especially and fuel pump from a Ford F-250 (spare tank pump). Runs like a champ now. Just my 2 cents and good luck. I feel your pain.
I think I am am very far from parting it out. The dealer is doing all they can next to actually finding the problem.
Quote from: xsephirot on April 12, 2013, 09:37:30 AM
Kind of real shady of Theo to sell a bike and not mention problems [thumbsdown]. This is one board that I love cause people are real honest and helpful.
I have mixed feelings at this point. I just want the bike running so I can enjoy it.
So a small update. They are going to have a different tech look over the whole bike towards the end of next week. A fresh set of eyes if you will. He is going to go over the whole thing to see if he can find and fix the problem with the intermittent spark. If that doesn't fix it we will talk wiring harness.
Just for reference, My S4 ran well for a couple years with a PCIII, then it got intermittent spark on the vertical cylinder.
Final result was the ECU was shagged.
s4rs has the 5am ecu, which is much mroe reliable than the 5.9m.
i've had two bikes that will crank and not start. 1098 that i ended up having the starter rebuilt on, local auto electric did some of his tricks to it.
a 999 that i fitted a moto electric lead kit to. just transformed it from unreliable to bliss.
we had a few hard starting s4rs back in the day. fitted extra earth leads to the heads, etc, not sure if any of it really helped.
i've also had 996sps that were real nightmares too, on my 996sps eproms i've richened the engine temp trims around 5 to 25 degrees by 15 or 20 % for cold start, seems to make a real difference. maybe try cranking it while crimping the fuel return hose to the tank to raise the pressure and see if that helps. if you had a pc3 you could add a heap of fuel in the 500 rpm spot, as it'll never run there.
I never understood how ECU's just die. Thankfully mine seems fine, with a new ECU the bike still has the same problems. Id love to take the bike back and upgrade cables among other things. I am not sure if that will fix it though.
Currently my starter is out of the bike (I think) and the new one is in it. I'm tempted to rebuild it for good measure before they swap them back. Then again a new starter didn't fix the problem.
Well the bike gets worked on tomorrow. I just read a lot about Motolectric HICAP kit you were talking about brad. Seems people either say it's too expensive or buy it and are very happy. Could this fix my intermittent spark?
don't know. worked on the 999 i had very noticeably.
diyer's say the motolectric kit is too expensive. at what my time is worth, it's cheap, complete and i don't have to think about it.
i'd try crankng it with the fuel return hose crimped to raise the pressure.
I feel like a broken record. The bike gets looked at tomorrow. The tech was out sick and is starting on it first thing tomorrow.
Any updates for us?
Well yes and no. The bike did get looked at last week and the new tech is "really determined to get this bike going." I just got off the phone with service and they had ordered a crank position sensor last Wednesday from Italy. So once again it is waiting on a part. They are hoping it will be here by the end of this week. The tech has continued to look over the whole bike in the meantime but has found nothing leading to the cause.
It's alive! Word is it's running and starts. They still need to put it back together and do test rides to make sure it is 100%
Congrats man.....I'm sure you're beyond excited to ride her after waiting this long.
Yes I am. The 6 miles I have done on her so far were not enough.
Aaaaaaand.... the fix was what?
They said the crank position sensor was the fix. I will get more details when they work up a bill. :'(
Quote from: Heath on May 09, 2013, 07:52:00 PM
They said the crank position sensor was the fix. I will get more details when they work up a bill. :'(
but at least your beeeaaaauuuttiiifuuuullllll S4R is no longer a lovely paper weight! Dont think anything sucks more than looking at a great bike you know doesn't work [bang]
I'm supposed to go pick up the bike tonight. They called to let me know the bill is $$$$ so wouldn't be shocked when I arrived. I'm speechless. >:(
Edit: Took price out.
She's home! She is a beast. [evil]
The dealership understood how upset I was and asked if I would help them find a price I was comfortable with. After they refused my $10 offer we settled on a price in the $$$ range.
Much work to be done now. ;D Some wiring still needs to be cleaned up and I will be changing the set up a little for comfort.
I'd be pretty pissed and wouldn't be paying. Looks like they had absolutely no idea and just kept throwing parts at it until they accidentally got it working. No actual diagnosis at all.
Plus god knows what damage they've done to your loom in their bumbling.
It appears that way in some aspects. One of the problems was the crank position sensor did not fail any tests. When they were diagnosing, it was one of things they went through and tested several times. Each time it passed. It wasn't until the new tech said he wanted order a CPS and try it because he had tested everything else.
Over all there were 25+ hours of documented work done on the bike. There was probably another 20+ hours of non documented work but the first tech stopped recording his extra hours. They said it took 10 hours to put the bike back together. Overall I was happy to finally have a bike that was running. The bike was supposed to start right off the truck when I got it and it never did. (Don't even get me started about that.) Also the huge discount on the bill helped put me in a better mood.
I should clarify when I said some wiring still needs be cleaned up. Some of that is not from the work they did. The front turn signals have stock plugs and I want to change those. The taillight I installed before I took it to them was done very fast just to make the bike street legal for California. I pretty much soldered the connections and covered them in painters tape. :P I am not crazy about some of the wiring sheathing and need to find a clean looking solution for that.
I also need to talk to them about how they disable the Euro Light switch from working. Seems pointless to have it on there if it is bypassed. I have a lot to learn, as this bike is a whole new Monster compared to my 2v. I can't wait to dive in. ;D
I have a s/h rotation sensor for testing. often you need to fit a good one to rule something out, or to confirm an issue. sometimes throwing parts at them (the easiest ones to get to anyway) is the best approach.
at least it's fixed. I know how you feel, and very much how they feel.