07 S4R Testa Starting Problem - long read

[Speeddog]

I've not seen it a lot, but I've had a few bikes with intermittent or poorly timed spark when the ECU voltage goes low during cranking due to a bad ground.

[COP TZR]

this sucks man.  I hope it all works out for you.  I hope the dealer you're at is reputable and not trying to take you to the cleaners??  We had a Ducati dealer here in Toronto that used to try and scam customers by charging for parts that never got installed.  (eg. Oil change service, and the filter never got changed).  They are now shut down.

[bond0087]

Hey, I just read your post, and while I don't have any brilliant quick fix, I just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

First off, to reinforce what you already know, throwing a harness at it is absolutely crazy. That's like buying and installing new cylinder heads because your valves are out of adjustment.

Now I don't want to be excessively hard on the shop, because I know that these situations can be frustrating, when you're losing money hand over fist on a problem you can't figure out. With that said, from what you've written, it doesn't sound like much diagnostics is actually going on; they seem to be just throwing parts at it. I know, everyone's guilty of that now and then (some more than others), but especially when you're getting your parts from Italy, throwing parts at it is a very inefficient method.

Does this shop have oscilloscopes and people who know how to use them? I don't know how well equipped a typical dealer's shop is, but I think that this problem would be much easier to solve with an automotive scope and related accessories on hand. Here's where I would start if I was troubleshooting your bike, starting from the assumption of an intermittent ignition problem (an assumption worth double checking):

1 - Monitor the voltage at the battery during and after attempted starting. Is it dropping unacceptably low while cranking? How about afterwards, what does it look like? Low voltage while cranking would point me towards a possible battery issue, low voltage afterwards would point me towards some other component that's draining power when it shouldn't be.

2 - If voltage at the battery was significantly lower after trying to start than it was before, I'd visually check and/or put a current clamp on likely candidates until I found where the current is going. One prime suspect to check out is the starter solenoid. If it wasn't breaking the circuit to the starter completely, that'd cause low voltage across the board.

3 - If the battery seems good and it's not draining excessive current after starting, I would go to the coils next. I'd backprobe the signal from the ECU to each of the coils and take a look with the scope. Is it sending any signal to the coils? What is the voltage level of the signals? Are they consistent? 

4 - If the coil signals look about right, I'd also measure the timing signal from the pick up coils to check the timing of the spark, and to make sure that the timing signals look right (I'm not sure that the modern bikes use pick up coils, but either those or their modern equivalents)

5 - As a final check on the coils, you could measure the current in the ignition system using a scope to look for possible problems.

6 - If the ECU wasn't sending a consistent signal, I'd check the voltage at the ECU during starting, and then check all of the safety switch / sensor inputs as well.

Anyway, a long winded response I know, but I think that you could zero in on the problem area pretty quickly with those sorts of tests. I'll refrain from giving my best guess on what it could be, because it'd just be a wild guess, but speeddog's hypothesis seems worth looking into.

Best of luck, and here's to hoping you get it back on the road soon! 

[Heath]

I've not seen it a lot, but I've had a few bikes with intermittent or poorly timed spark when the ECU voltage goes low during cranking due to a bad ground.

I passed on this information and they said reinforcing the ground was one of the first things they did. He also said maybe it is something they should revisit again.

this sucks man.  I hope it all works out for you.  I hope the dealer you're at is reputable and not trying to take you to the cleaners??  We had a Ducati dealer here in Toronto that used to try and scam customers by charging for parts that never got installed.  (eg. Oil change service, and the filter never got changed).  They are now shut down.

They do have a great rep. The cleaners part has crossed my mind but I feel like I can trust them as crazy as it sounds. I went by once in February on short notice and again last Saturday unannounced.  Both times they were friendly and took me back to look at the bike right away.

[Heath]

Hey, I just read your post, and while I don't have any brilliant quick fix, I just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
<snip>
Anyway, a long winded response I know, but I think that you could zero in on the problem area pretty quickly with those sorts of tests. I'll refrain from giving my best guess on what it could be, because it'd just be a wild guess, but speeddog's hypothesis seems worth looking into.
Best of luck, and here's to hoping you get it back on the road soon! 

That is a lot of information, thank you. I will pass it on. Most of my ideas are met with 'yes we tried that when we ...' but perhaps there is something new here. I would be interested in your best guess too just for the hell of it. 

My computer is probably getting tired of me Googling starting problems with s4rs and s4r testas'.

[ccran]

Just my 2 cents but sounds like your going to have more invested than the bike is worth. Cut your losses and part it out. You will make make than enough to buy another S4RS. If the bike is at a reputable dealer and after 2 months they don't have it figured out, pack it in bro. Throwing parts at it gets real expensive real quick and seldom solves the problem. I bought a low mileage '04 S4R, bike ran great for 500 miles. Then the similar issues as you have began. The dealer said it's electrical, but I refused to accept that. I decided to pull the tank off, and found that the fuel lines in the tank had turned to mush do to Ethenol in US fuel. Replaced in tank fuel lines especially and fuel pump from a Ford F-250 (spare tank pump). Runs like a champ now. Just my 2 cents and good luck. I feel your pain.

[xsephirot]

Kind of real shady of Theo to sell a bike and not mention problems  . This is one board that I love cause people are real honest and helpful.

[Heath]

Just my 2 cents but sounds like your going to have more invested than the bike is worth. Cut your losses and part it out. You will make make than enough to buy another S4RS. If the bike is at a reputable dealer and after 2 months they don't have it figured out, pack it in bro. Throwing parts at it gets real expensive real quick and seldom solves the problem. I bought a low mileage '04 S4R, bike ran great for 500 miles. Then the similar issues as you have began. The dealer said it's electrical, but I refused to accept that. I decided to pull the tank off, and found that the fuel lines in the tank had turned to mush do to Ethenol in US fuel. Replaced in tank fuel lines especially and fuel pump from a Ford F-250 (spare tank pump). Runs like a champ now. Just my 2 cents and good luck. I feel your pain.

I think I am am very far from parting it out. The dealer is doing all they can next to actually finding the problem.

Kind of real shady of Theo to sell a bike and not mention problems  . This is one board that I love cause people are real honest and helpful.

I have mixed feelings at this point. I just want the bike running so I can enjoy it.

[Heath]

So a small update. They are going to have a different tech look over the whole bike towards the end of next week. A fresh set of eyes if you will. He is going to go over the whole thing to see if he can find and fix the problem with the intermittent spark. If that doesn't fix it we will talk wiring harness.

[Speeddog]

Just for reference, My S4 ran well for a couple years with a PCIII, then it got intermittent spark on the vertical cylinder.

Final result was the ECU was shagged.

[brad black]

s4rs has the 5am ecu, which is much mroe reliable than the 5.9m.

i've had two bikes that will crank and not start.  1098 that i ended up having the starter rebuilt on, local auto electric  did some of his tricks to it.

a 999 that i fitted a moto electric lead kit to.  just transformed it from unreliable to bliss.

we had a few hard starting s4rs back in the day.  fitted extra earth leads to the heads, etc, not sure if any of it really helped.

i've also had 996sps that were real nightmares too, on my 996sps eproms i've richened the engine temp trims around 5 to 25 degrees by 15 or 20 % for cold start, seems to make a real difference.  maybe try cranking it while crimping the fuel return hose to the tank to raise the pressure and see if that helps.  if you had a pc3 you could add a heap of fuel in the 500 rpm spot, as it'll never run there.

[Heath]

I never understood how ECU's just die. Thankfully mine seems fine, with a new ECU the bike still has the same problems. Id love to take the bike back and upgrade cables among other things. I am not sure if that will fix it though.

Currently my starter is out of the bike (I think) and the new one is in it. I'm tempted to rebuild it for good measure before they swap them back. Then again a new starter didn't fix the problem.

[Heath]

Well the bike gets worked on tomorrow. I just read a lot about Motolectric HICAP kit you were talking about brad. Seems people either say it's too expensive or buy it and are very happy. Could this fix my intermittent spark?

[brad black]

don't know.  worked on the 999 i had very noticeably.

diyer's say the motolectric kit is too expensive.  at what my time is worth, it's cheap, complete and i don't have to think about it.

i'd try crankng it with the fuel return hose crimped to raise the pressure.

[Heath]

I feel like a broken record. The bike gets looked at tomorrow. The tech was out sick and is starting on it first thing tomorrow.