07 S4R Testa Starting Problem - long read

[Heath]

This is long. I am sorry but there are cliff notes at the end.
In January I bought a 07 S4R Testastretta. It was Theo's S4Rt for those who know it. Theo made a video for me before I bought it of the bike starting and idling. I figured I was safe to buy it. Ever since I got it though it has had problems. It arrived with a dead Shorai battery. I charged it the way Shorai said to and the battery was good to go. I went to start the bike and it just tries and tires but won't fire. The starter was going and going but nothing. I tried this a bunch of times and finally it fires. Woo! I am excited to finally hear it in person and the bike dies in 4 seconds or so. I'm used to giving throttle on my 2v so I figured I would do that with the 4v. Well I forgot it had a stepper motor and I didn't need to do this. Funny thing though when you barely touch the throttle it would spin much faster but still not fire.

After several attempts I decide to look at the plugs. I pull the horizontal plug out and it is black and wet. I figured I flooded the engine. Quick search online for these plugs show the local O'Reilly's has them. The plugs in it though are NGK CR9E which later on I find out are the wrong plugs. Before I found out though I put the new CR9E plugs in and tried again. Hit the starter again kept trying to fire up. Finally it did though, a burst of smoke from the exhaust and I am warming it up. It is running as long as I keep touching the throttle. Finally my new baby is alive! So I go and ride it up and down the street real quick without gear. I decided to go test ride it. Put the bike in the garage, turn it off and run upstairs to get my gear. When I come back down I'm all excited, go to start the bike and it won't fire up again. I check the battery and it still has enough power and should be good.

Stressed I decide to try again the next day. This was actually the day I had planned on registering it at DMV. So the next morning I get up and decide to try to start the bike 45min before my appointment just in case it doesn't start. Sure enough it doesn't. So keep trying and trying. I got it to start once but it died right away. Finally get it to start and I am off. DMV is only 3 miles away so I wasn't too worried. Go in do my thing they need me to take it to the back to get the VIN verified. I asked if I could get them to go to the bike and they answered with a big NO. That is not our policy, you much be within camera view etc.… So anyways I go back to the bike and amazingly it starts. I ride the bike over and get it checked. I go to start it to move it back and it won't start. I didn't want to press my luck so I pushed it back to my parking spot. After the bike is fully in my name and me wondering if this was a wise purchase I set off to go home. The bike wouldn't start. After 20minutes I get it to finally go and I head home. I had to keep the RPMs up otherwise it wanted to die. This is when I decide I want to just take it to the dealership instead of messing it up.

Here is where it really gets frustrating. I took it to a local dealership and it has been there for 2+ months while they try to figure out what is wrong with it. Most of the delays have been waiting for test parts. Regardless the bike is still not fixed. Here is what they have done.

When I took it in I explained the backstory of me getting the bike and what I tried. I kept it simple. I said it won't start easy but if it does start it wants to die. I told as much as I could about the bikes history. They wrote me up for an hour of diagnosis and said they could fix it within that hour they would. If it required more they would call me. I get a call the day of my appointment (I had dropped the bike off a few days early). They said it looks like it just needs the TPS reset, throttle bodies synced and trim adjustments done. The bill would be for 1.5 hours of work, which includes the diagnosis they already did. I was happy and said go for it. I get a call back and said it is running better but want to check the injectors. I said go ahead and do it. Afterwards they call back and said the vertical injector is working at maybe 15% and recommend a full system fuel cleaning. I get the quote, I think the total for the work already done and the cleaning came to around $350. I asked if that would fix it. They said yes that should be it. So I said OK, do it.

I get a call a couple days later with bad news. The service guy explains the work they did fixed the running issue, but now the starting problem came back. Apparently the bike started and was running great in the shop. The tech was checking it out and everything seemed great. He shut the bike off and came to it about an hour later. He got his gear on to take it out for a test ride and the bike wouldn't start.

So from there they have tried to find the problem and had no luck. They have narrowed it down to a lack of spark issue when starting. How they explained it to me is when you hit the starter button the bike turns, starter goes like it should but there is not a lot of spark. Keep in mind the right plugs are now in it. The tech said he changed those when all the fuel system clean was done. First they said it was probably the ECU.  They brought in a tester DP ECU and swapped it out with my DP ECU. Problem still existed so ECU is not the problem.

Not sure exactly what this means but they said they disengaged the starting system and started the bike manually and it will run just fine. When you try to start it with the starter it has a lack of spark issue. Another tech they talked to said it is the starter, don't ask him why just said try a new starter because that one is probably taking power away from the spark. So they ordered a new starter and tried that. The problem still existed.

Now here we are a little over 2 months they have had the bike. Most the delays have been waiting for parts or waiting to hear back from their other techs and their Ducati Rep on what to do.  Next they are talking wiring harness which I think is crazy. A new wiring harness is $1000. You have got to be kidding me. Where do I go from here? A lot of friends I talk to ask why I still have the bike there. Well frankly because they seem just as frustrated as I do. Also beyond the first $350 they are not charging me for all this other work because it hasn't fixed the bike. So they are being very reasonable.

Any ideas what it could be?

Cliffs
1.   Buy 07 S4R,dead battery, charge battery, battery good
2.   Bike won't start, fouled plugs, new plugs, bike starts, runs bad, wrong plugs later fixed by tech
3.   Trouble starting, turns slow, slight touch of throttle spins it faster.
4.   Trouble starting, trouble idling, give up take to dealer end of January
5.   Dealer says tps, trim levels and balance throttle bodies should be good to go
6.   Bike will start but not idle, dealer recommends fuel system clean, do it, bike idles now
7.   Tech lets bike sit an hour, comes back bike won't start.
8.   Tech looks into a bunch of things says ECU. Order ecu, new ecu same problem.
9.   Tech tries starting bike without starter, works, runs good
10.   Bike has lack of spark with starter starting the bike.
11.   Another tech recommends new starter, order starter, new starter same problem
12.   Tech is stumped, Ducati Rep stumped. Now thinking new wiring harness
13.   It has now been 2+ months from when they started. Most delays were for parts.

Now I am sure there are some little things I have missed but that is the jest of it.

[koko64]

Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump/injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.

[Bill in OKC]

Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump, injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.

I agree.  Try a regular battery.  When you charged the Shorai did you use a balance charger?  No spark points to a weak battery when a bump start will get it running.

[Howie]

Yep, another vote for possible bad battery.  Ask the dealer to try a known, good stock AGM battery.

[graydo]

Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump/injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.

I agree also... sounds like the only thing left it can be... all the earth contacts are clean? really sounds as thought the critical systems of the bike don't get enough juice when the starter is draining it.. I have a M1100 with a Shorai and it is a little tempermental with starting sometine also.. unpredictable but it always starts after maybe a few attempts sounding just like you have described... oh and the faster cranking when you open the throttle.... it is because you have taken load off the starter by opening the throttle and reducing the load of the engine creating vacuum. Good luck and hope you get it sorted. Keep us posted.

[Heath]

Did they try another battery?
I dont know if other people are thinking what Im thinking, but I would try another good battery. Shorais dont like going under 13V and it can damage them.
Bike starts when bump started because the damaged battery isnt overloaded by the starter motor. When it has to turn the starter it has no surplus voltage to run the ecu, coils, fuel pump/injection. It cant sustain spark. That load test exposes the battery.
Just a guess, I may well be wrong, but its an easy test.
Okams Razor.

The tech is doing all the testing with their own battery. I think it was a Yuasa. I stopped in mid February and saw a tender lead going to the bike. They had their own battery in it with my Shorai sitting near by.

I agree.  Try a regular battery.  When you charged the Shorai did you use a balance charger?  No spark points to a weak battery when a bump start will get it running.

I used a 2a car charger to get the voltage up then finished with Shorai's own charger. As per their instructions. Well they said 5a charger, but I said I only had one that would do 2a, 10a, or 50a. The guy on the phone said do the 2a it will just take longer. Stay with it and monitor it with a multimeter. Once it was near a certain range to switch to the Shoari charger.

I think I may still need to send it to Shorai to get it checked out though.

[koko64]

Sorry to hear.
Whats the rate for autoelectricians over there? Was thinking of the $1000 loom if theres a starter wiring issue.

[ducpainter]

Did the correct plugs ever get installed?

[Heath]

Did the correct plugs ever get installed?

The tech put in Champion RG4HC plugs. I called one day when I realized it had the wrong plugs in it. The tech said that was one of the first things he noticed and changed.

[Heath]

Sorry to hear.
Whats the rate for autoelectricians over there? Was thinking of the $1000 loom if theres a starter wiring issue.

I'm not sure. When they said $1000 I said that is crazy for a bike that was running just fine. It has to be something simpler than a whole new harness.

[ducpainter]

Is the fuel in the tank the same fuel that was in there in January?

[Speeddog]

Did they swap out the relays?

Are they absolutely sure that the battery ground cable is good, and has good connections?

[Heath]

Is the fuel in the tank the same fuel that was in there in January?

Did they swap out the relays?

Are they absolutely sure that the battery ground cable is good, and has good connections?

Not sure I will ask them today. I plan on going by there.

[Heath]

Is the fuel in the tank the same fuel that was in there in January?

Gas was changed out

Did they swap out the relays?

Are they absolutely sure that the battery ground cable is good, and has good connections?

They swapped all the relays. They also made their own ground cable to bypass that.

[Heath]

The service manager said when they bypassed the starting system it bump starts and runs fine. The issue is an intermittent spark issue when using the starter. The tech was off today. They are going to talk again Tuesday and see what other options they have without trying a whole new harness.

The wiring harness has defiantly already been tested to some extent. There were splices here and there.