Ducati Monster Forum

the next new little thing is coming....

https://www.eliomotors.com/ (https://www.eliomotors.com/)

guess we'll see what pans out with this....

I've got an acquaintance out here in AZ who has a fairly large stake in this company. Lots of hype about mpg and crash test ratings. What most of his "followers" fail to recognize is that this vehicle is a MOTORCYCLE! In our state (as in most) you need a MC endorsement on your license to legally operate one. Also the "anticipated 5-star crash rating" would have to be based on motorcycle crash safety ratings. Not too hard to score well on those when you introduce a cage and airbags.

We still have no idea of who supplies the engines, or any other component for that matter. How will warranties be handled?

It's a niche vehicle. A pre-assembled kit. There's another forum member I know in AZ who built something similar 10 years ago in his garage using a Kawasaki 750cc and his Harbor Freight welder. (and at least that thing was fast!)

What I'd like to see is if an elio can make it up the mountain from Phoenix to Flagstaff with two people in it and the AC pumping on a hot 114 degree Arizona day, without overheating or literally being blown off the road. And that 84 mpg is a joke.


<end rant>

WELL....my only response is that this will compete directly with Can-Am Spyder sales and will be more accessable at that price point to more people than the Can-Am....think about that for a moment, since the Can-Am is being accepted in many states for being able to get your "M" endorsement


supposedly they are going to release answers to some of those questions in May according to their website....

Sorry for all of the nay-saying. It's just that they tried the same thing they're trying in Shreveport, in Pontiac about three years ago, and that failed. I'm just a bit skeptical that this will ever get off the ground. There is still some question as to whether a helmet will be required in those states that mandate them for 2-wheeled motorcycles.

I guess my contention is that almost all of my acquaintance's followers (lots of them are my friends) look at me on my Ducatis and give me all types of "that's too dangerous/I would never.../don't you think your wife worries?" crap, about my motorcycles, and then they sit back and glorify the elio... which is... in fact... just another motorcycle.

I have definitely pondered the Can-Am competition and brought it to their attention. That's typically when they change the subject. It's as if they're trying not to see how similar the vehicles really are.

i think id take one of these instead...

http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/home.html (http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/home.html)

I like the pizza.

Likely a blast but more information needed for sure, def something to watch.  And those Morgans are great, they made them years ago in the same style with the V twin out front.  I see the cost is now outrageous.

I thought the reason they couldn't sell the T-Rexx (http://www.campagnamotors.com/ (http://www.campagnamotors.com/)) with a windshield was because it was classified as a motorcycle.  In a bunch of state laws it states a motorcycle cannot be enclosed. 

I wonder how this new 3 wheeler is going to get around the laws that dictate what a motorcycle is and isn't...

IDK, my Parents recently bought a Chevy Volt. They can get all the way from San Bernadino to the Valley(@80 miles) without using ANY fuel because of the regenerative braking going down hill. And it is a full sized(compact) car. Years ago I worked a an electric car company, and we were able to get 80 miles on a charge out of a full sized GM van using regen braking. Seems to me there are better ways to go about fuel conservation than going back to the idea of a car/motorcycle crossover(not a new idea). Another prime example is the upcoming Porsche 918 Spyder hybrid. It is faster in the corners than a 911 Turbo, because the electric motors kick in. And it can get 70 mpg, as well as a top speed of 170mph. Now that is a green vehicle I would love to daily drive. http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-porsche-918-spyder-pricing-news (http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-porsche-918-spyder-pricing-news) The price is very prohibitive though. lol

Electric cars are NOT the answer.  First, the batteries, just like any other battery, will only last a few years.  To replace them will cost more than the car is worth.  Second, if the car is full electirc you have to plug it in to charge.  Where is the energy to charge it coming from?  Power plants using fossil fuels.  Third, the chemicals in the batteries are far worse for the environment than burning fossil fuels, and the batteries will fail.

Hybrid vehicles are a decent compromise but once again still using fossil fuels which supposedly harm the environment.

The best current option IMO is CNG which burns incredibly clean and is cheaper than gasoline.

I partially agree with you. HOWEVER, the coal burning power plants are burning 100% coal. It is possible to run up to 80% dry biomass(think christmas trees and lawn clippings), and still maintain the same efficiency. Why don't they? Because then coal miners would effectively be working for CHINA. China currently buys large amounts of coal from us. If we cut our use by even half, we would be selling more coal to China than we use. Secondly, there are many ways to produce electricity rather than coal/nuc etc. But, for what ever reason that has not happened.

As far as the Volt, it is a plug in Hybrid. Cool stuff, many options. My parents are saving LOTS of cash by using it for running around town on errands rather than the mini van. They are using 1/4 the fuel, the electricity is cheap in comparison. And this avoids using foreign oil(very good thing).

I run Biodiel in my '83 Merc Turbo diesel when I can get it. Runs better on that than petrol diesel. THAT is a very renewable resource. Especially when you consider that the Gov't subsidises farms to NOT grow crops in order to keep the market stable. Those farms could supply much of our diesel needs, if not all(look up algae biodiesel). Also, the life cycle of whatever plant is used for fuel eats more CO2 than the small amount of plant oil produces when burning.

Also, most of this is a moot point considering that 85% of our petroleum goes to fueling big diesel trucks, trains, busses, farm vehicles and aircraft. Comuter vehicles only use 15% of all petroleum in this country, and put out about the same percentage of poutants.

I could go on, but I am sure alot of people would get bored quickly. I have 100s of pages of research and studies on the subject. Not the right forum for this though I think.

Ultimately, enjoying WHATEVER form of pump reduction you choose is a good thing. Everyone has their own needs. Lets keep our dollars here, and not spend money on fuel that can be locally made supporting the US economy.

go team Ural!

 :D

(http://pics.imcdb.org/0is107/regalzc2.5380.jpg)

As soon as I saw the Elio, I figured Mr. Bean would have a problem with it.

I'm not trying to get political, but I wanted to offer a counter argument.

the answer is there's no one answer.  but point by point:
1) First, the batteries, just like any other battery, will only last a few years.

True, -but they can be recycled. 

2) To replace them will cost more than the car is worth.

Doubtful, especially as recycling electric car batteries becomes a multi-billion dollar operation.  costs will come down.

3)Second, if the car is full electric you have to plug it in to charge.  Where is the energy to charge it coming from?  Power plants using fossil fuels. 

Any kind of electricty can charge a battery.  Coal, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, wind, solar, hydroelectric, oceanic thermocouples, geothermal, balloons rubbed on poyester shirts, wool socks on carpets, you name it.  I'm simplifying of course, but the power doesn't need to come from coal mines only.  Plenty of renewables are reliable enough to be deployed right now, others are getting there.  There is no one true path to the power of the future they all have their own drawbacks and they all have their own advantages.  Recently people are becoming more aware of and less tolerant of the drawbacks of coal.  Will it be phased out completely?  doubtful- but as less polluting energy sources proliferate, coal will lose many of the advantages that have put it on top.

4)Third, the chemicals in the batteries are far worse for the environment than burning fossil fuels, and the batteries will fail. 

And gas leaks from pipelines and coal mining sludge runs into rivers.  The batteries will be recycled.  Mostly.  They represent too valuable of a source of battery building materials, and too great a potential source of pollution to let them rot in a landfill.

5)The best current option IMO is CNG which burns incredibly clean and is cheaper than gasoline.

CNG is probably part of a solution.  Natural gas is not infinite, and still burns carbon and creates carbon dioxide, which are some of the big downfalls of all fossil fuels.

To meet the energy needs of the 21st century, the status quo won't work.  There's not enough oil and too many people who want to burn it.  With an increasingly industrialized world population who all want to eat and raise kids, coupled with dwindling reserves of fossil fuels,(and clean water) something has to change,- maybe everything.  The answer can't be one thing- no solution fixes everything with no drawbacks, it will likely be a combination of 5 or ten big changes and a thousand smaller ones. 

My reply was in no way a political statement and I apologize if it came across that way.  I am an ASE certified mechanic and had some training with an alternative fuels researcher at U of M.  After the conversations with him I came to feel this way about different power sources.  I really like CNG as a fuel.  It does burn very clean and according to the person I spoke with, we had at that time in the US, enough CNG to power every vehicle we use for over 100 years.

Not entirely true. Much of the CNG is trapped in Shale and other substrates and Fracking with toxic chemicals is used to release it(not good). It is true that there are MANY sources for NG: Wetlands, farm waste, sewage, landfills, tundra, deep sea frozen Methane hydrate etc. But most of this just ends up evaporating and becoming a green house gas. I do agree that we COULD use NG, not only for fuel but also for Gasifacation into fuels like Syndiesel, the most clean and efficient "Diesel" fuel there is. Currently Nasa, the USAF and several aircraft manufacturers are running tests on Syndiesel as JetAV fuel. Looks like a great fuel, and it can be made from MANY things other than NG like dry biomass. There is one other contender, there has been a gen modified ecolli bacteria which consumes shit and poops Biodiesel. lol  Lots of cool stuff is going on, but nothing is being done with it.

If you want a vehicle that can run on Biofuel from the factory with no mods, the diesel is the only way. But as stated, even that is not the answer. There is no one best way. The best way is to make green vehicle for specific purposes, in whatever fuel source works best.

I was an alternative fuel trainer.  Rather than take items a point at a time I will just make some simple statements to try and shine some light.

There is no single magic bullet. Different fuels and technology appropriate for the particular application plus conservation are the answers.  In NYC, hybrid buses have worked out very well, about halved fuel consumption and tailpipe emissions plus long term reduced cost to the city.  Hybrid cars, mixed bag.   Municipal fleets, not so good.  Probably would have been better off with Honda Fits, or, even better, Metro Cards.  Hybrid Taxis, not sure, but I expect better, particularly during stop and go traffic.  Of course there is the problem of cradle to grave impact, particularly on early hybrids with nicad  batteries.

Natural gas?  Great fuel.  Much cleaner than gasoline and diesel.  It has it's drawbacks though.  Supply infrastructure and range are two biggies.  Extracting it from the environment, as mentioned by LowThud certainly count too.  Even E85 is a great fuel if used in a car specifically built to take advantage of it.  Do note I said great fuel, not good idea.  I don't even think we need to go there.  Bio diesel?  Also a great fuel, but right now, costly.  Electric has already been covered well enough, so...

Best yet is just use less.  Walk more, live closer to work, so on and so forth.

 

On a lighter note, I recall reading somewhere that a rubber band stretched just short of the breaking point, has as much stored energy per pound as dynamite.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if the magic bullet for green cars was rubber bands? ;D

The elio looks like it could be powered off of rubber bands... or hampsters.

How many BTUs are lost every day to farts being wasted into the atmosphere?

Every desk in Manhattan should have a fart vacuum and every Tuesday should be Taco Tuesday.

That would produce enough energy to power at least one taxi for a year.

Thy will be done.

(http://i.qkme.me/3svgjg.jpg)

Or a lot of  [Dolph]

My uncle has actually designed a perpetual motion device.  Simply strap a piece of jelly toast to the belly of a cat.  The jelly side must face the belly of the cat.  Drop the cat from any distance you like.

I'll wait for this instead. http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/lit-motors-c1/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/lit-motors-c1/)

It's all gimmickry, all of it.

three wheeled cars?

show me one you can carry your family of 5 in comfortably.

electric cars?

they'll work on a limited basis, but the claims that "battery costs will come down" are just unicorn fart promises -- there is no guarantee they will come down in the next 100 years.  generations of batteries have come to a head in the last 20 years and there is nothing coming down the pike -- the best we have is LiON batteries.  anything new will be a fractional improvement and the cost of batteries will likely go UP not down as resources decrease and regulatory pressures for the increasing toxic production and waste increases (recycling isn't free, you know.. right now you can toss a battery in the trash for the land fill, in 10 years that will be a felony.)

hybrid?  just a stopgap.  diesel or CNG hybrids are really the best mix, but diesel has a bad name despite being the most "Green" of combustion fuels (biodiesel i mean).

three wheeled cars?  I used to love driving a coupe.  so fun.  now I have two kids.  my sister has 3 kids.  my wife's sister has 3 kids. 

the 20somethings and childless arrested adolescents living in big cities will love them, but most won't buy them if they have good mass transit.

sensible folks living in big cities will lean towards car rental and mass transit, or have just one car for commuting if necessary.  employers are on to this and many are providing private shuttles from pickup points (the train station near me has a surplus of private employers picking people up, the parking lot is filled with people who don't take the train, lol).

Our shop delivery truck gets pretty good mileage  8)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/920311_581354558563951_1500809421_o.jpg)

on the fuel discussion...
i have been shopping for a small outboard for out 12' fishing boat, and looked at Li-Ion and Propane options.
each is offered by only 1 mfr each, and the pricing is high compared to std gas engine options
plus, being new technologies i havent seen either used.
tough to be an early adopter when you can get a nice Honda or Nissan used for 1/3 the price

Might consider a diesel: http://www.klaxondieseloutboards.com/ (http://www.klaxondieseloutboards.com/) Lot's of makers of them, and some can be run on vegi oil. I've even run my Merc 300SD on a gallon of motor oil when I ran out of fuel, no where near a fuel station. I would only recommend that as a last resort, but it worked..

Also, marine diesel can be bought for 2/3 the price of gas.  [thumbsup]

This is horrible... horrible I tell ya. 

Reading this, I'm listening to 99.5 talk about alternative energy..  fusion, we need mini suns in our cars.. 

Only problem with a lot of alternative fuels is the big companies won't let them in since they'll loss $$..

Two words: Flux Capacitor  ;D

Seems this kind of thing comes along every decade or so.
The 3-wheeled car will change the world.....  [roll]

Unfortunately, they principally are scams.
Or woefully mismanaged operations that just burn up investment capital.
Or just blue-sky prototypes.


From the mid 1970's, I present the Dale:

(http://www.waynesgarage.com/cars/trivia/dale.jpg) (http://www.hemmings.com/story_image/174921-500-0.jpg?rev=2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Motor_Car_Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Motor_Car_Corporation)


From the mid -80's, I present the Lean Machine:

(http://www.3wheelers.com/gmlean.jpg)

http://www.3wheelers.com/gmlean.html (http://www.3wheelers.com/gmlean.html)


From the mid-90's, I present the Sparrow:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Corbin_Sparrow.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers_Motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers_Motors)
 

From the mid 2000's, the Aptera:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Apteracar2.jpg/800px-Apteracar2.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors)

Of course, there was one that was successful for 30+ years..

(http://www.motorstown.com/images/reliant-robin-04.jpg)

Hey Speeddog.....here's a new incarnation for you to file away...

(http://terracraftmotors.com/sites/all/themes/corporateclean/images/TerraCraftFINClosed_0013_960width.jpg)


http://thekneeslider.com/terracraft-tilting-enclosed-reverse-trike-concept/ (http://thekneeslider.com/terracraft-tilting-enclosed-reverse-trike-concept/)

Water and sand which is 99% of the fluids used in the fracturing process are toxic chemicals? Wow, I did not know that. [roll]  Most of the 1% other components are or soon will be food grade, so you'll be more at risk from harmful chemicals when eating a farm grown tomato.  Not to mention that the shale formations where the fracking happens is > 5,000 ft below the deepest ground water source.

Oh yeah, fracking has been around since the '50's at shallower depths and is used in the process of building Geothermal wells too!

and back to the regularly scheduled show . . .

You must have an inside line on this stuff, because fracking interests do not have to disclose what is in their fluids. I've never heard of food grade benzene in any form, so this must be some cutting edge stuff.

Also, hydraulic fracking and horizontal hydraulic fracking are not the same thing. Vertical fracking has been around since the 50s. Horizontal fracking is relatively new. What's next, telling us all that the earthquakes caused by injection wells aren't a part of fracking?

List of chemicals used in fracking: http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used (http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used)

Cheveron mentions chemicals, but they do not disclose which chemicals.

[puke] [puke] [puke]

Yes, I do. 15 years in drilling and evaluation equipment research and development.

Vertical / Horizontal. Doesn't matter. Relatively the same equipment and methods.

Earthquake! OMGZORR!, a 0.00026% occurrence of richter 1 or below.  Alert the press!

Hydraulic Fracking Poses Almost No Risk for Causing Earthquakes
http://greenrisks.blogspot.com/2012/06/hydraulic-fracking-poses-almost-no-risk.html (http://greenrisks.blogspot.com/2012/06/hydraulic-fracking-poses-almost-no-risk.html)
 “. . . The waste water disposal wells associated with fracking and secondary well development have been associated with 8 known earthquakes, though there are a total of about 30,000 disposal wells in use, but these earthquakes have captured the headlines and public concern. . . .”

It’s Full Steam Ahead for First US Grid-Connected Enhanced Geothermal System
http://smart-grid.tmcnet.com/topics/smart-grid/articles/2013/04/18/334875-its-full-steam-ahead-first-us-grid-connected.htm (http://smart-grid.tmcnet.com/topics/smart-grid/articles/2013/04/18/334875-its-full-steam-ahead-first-us-grid-connected.htm)

Fracking and a Geothermal Energy Revolution
http://energytomorrow.org/blog/fracking-and-a-geothermal-energy-revolution#/type/all (http://energytomorrow.org/blog/fracking-and-a-geothermal-energy-revolution#/type/all)

Fracking Geothermal
http://greeneconomypost.com/fracking-geothermal-4804.htm (http://greeneconomypost.com/fracking-geothermal-4804.htm)

EU Ready for Shale
http://www.energyindepth.org/tag/geothermal-energy/ (http://www.energyindepth.org/tag/geothermal-energy/)
 “. . .most notably, the European Union’s (EU) chief scientific adviser is now expressing support for shale gas development, highlighting the proven safety record of production and the benefits it could deliver. This is in addition to countries across Europe waking up to the reality that the claims made in films like Gasland were intended to scare, not accurately inform.  . . .”

How about a car with 5 wheels?

I think it keeps coming along because there is some merit to the idea. The problem is execution as a product - acquisition cost is too high,  it's unsafe, crappy performance, unreliable, hits the market when gas prices are low, etc. Someone's got to do it right, like Toyo did with the prius (market-wise, I'm not endorsing the product).

(https://www.earlymoments.com/upload/NextBook/BRU/BR033_Spread.jpg)

LOL!  That has to be the most ill-conceived vehicle ever created.

I love the Top Gear episode about the Reliant Robin.

http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-gear-reliant-robin_part-1_2032682.htm (http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-gear-reliant-robin_part-1_2032682.htm)

What could go wrong ??? ;D

I had a deposit on the Aptera (that Speedog showed earlier) - they kept pushing back the delivery dates and updating the product.
When they lost (badly) at the X-prize competition, it was the final nail. I requested - and received my deposit back.

The concept I was interested in, and still think is the best approach, is a fully electric power plant with a small efficient on-board generator - but in reality they never came close to building that version.

I remember Dick Rutan reviewing the Honda Insight (original version) and saying that on-board generator was the way he thought that car should have been built

I used to know one of the lead engineers for Aptera.  When my son was in Cub Scouts his troop marched in the Vista Christmas Parade and the guy from Aptera was driving that car ahead of us as we marched.  I took some pics of my son in that car after that parade.  He was a good guy, hope he moved on to bigger and better things.

I'm still sorry that I didn't get the car I "ordered" - like so many "concepts" , reality intervened. Hope your friend landed on his feet

I wouldn't say he was a friend.  I only met him a few times.  My wife knew him and his wife through a real estate deal.  I'll see if I can find the pics later and post them up.

But yes, I hope he landed on his feet too.  [thumbsup]

sweet, I always wanted all the negatives of a car with none of the positives of a motorcycle.

I have nothing to add to the alternative fuel debate other than these numbers from motoczsyz;

2009 Ep1c
Energy    10kWh
Voltage    98V+
Power    66hp
Torque    120-lb-ft
Motor Controller    Kelly
Transmission    Single Speed Chain Drive

2012 Ep1c
Energy    14kWh
Voltage    330V+
Power    150+kW / 200+hp
Torque    220Nm
Motor Controller    150kW Liquid Cooled
Transmission    Single Speed Gear Drive

not bad for 3 years of development by a small group of privateers.

Blast from the past...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a30189/elio-test-drive/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a30189/elio-test-drive/)