Someone posted something about doing stuff with one's Dad before the option is gone which led me to think- I haven't gone hunting with Dad since before college which was waaaaaay long ago. He converted to black powder which didn't work for me and my injured shoulder- ever fired a .50 muzzleloader? Dad has come back around to part time centerfire for a variety of reasons so I can now seriously think about resuming this sport with him.
- Dad is old school about not hunting with an AR style weapon for fear of inciting hostilities with locals.
- Having a bum shoulder I'm looking at rifles that won't beat me up at the range. So most likely a gas operated action (sorry bolt heads).
- I'm also a tiny bit sensitive to expedient critter dispatch so as not to make a kill take painfully long, or make Dad trudge over hill and dale with me to find/finish it (yeah I'm lazy- and yes I know placement counts)
- $1200 is about as high as I think I can stomach for the rifle sans optics, slings, etc.
Sooo... experience with specific rifles is preferred but feel free to provide anecdotal evidence if you're confident with the source. I'm particularly interested in feedback on the Benelli R1 Comfortech stock for its recoil absorption capabilities.
TIA
I gotta say before I went to only hunting with my .62 blackpowder smoothbore flintlock, I used a remington .270. Loved it and still use it
once and a while. shoots really flat, uses the same cartridge as the 30-06 but necked down to .270.
I have never used more than one well placed shot on an animal, two steps max and they were down. Once buck went 100 feet because i didn't place the shot very well and only hit the liver. It holds 5 shots in the clip and I can accurately put stuff out to 250 yards. I could probably go farther but don't want to screw up the shot. Doesn't beat you up either.
If recoil is that big of an issue, why not look into a muzzle brake? My first bolt gun was a .300 Win Mag with a muzzle brake on the end of a 24" barrel. Kicked like a .243. It also belched a ball of fire the size of a cantaloupe every time you fired, but it was plenty accurate and kept people away from me on the firing line. [evil]
If you're going to be shooting at elk, most would agree that 7mm is probably the smallest practical projectile. The .270 is fine up close, but at distance it just doesn't have a whole lot of energy left once it gets through the shoulder blade. I know quite a few people who have hunted elk with a .308 with great success, as long as the shot wasn't more than 150-200 yards. Beyond that, you have the same problem as you do with the 270 - not a lot of energy left at distance. For deer, however, the .270 and the .308 are great for as far away as you feel comfortable shooting.
If you're mostly going for deer, I've always been a fan of the 6.5 X 55 Swedish. Its like magic on deer, and its an almost frighteningly inherently accurate cartridge. Before the advent of .22 and 6mm PPC, Europeans used the 6.5 for match shooting the same way Americans use the .308. Recoil, even from a bolt gun, is moderate. A standard 1" butt pad is more than enough. Put a muzzle brake on one and you'll feel like you're shooting a really loud .22.
You're going to laugh, but my honest suggestion is a big-bore lever action with a ported barrel and a decent butt pad. Marlin makes a Guide Gun in 45-70 that, with moderate factory ammo, is pleasant to shoot and will drop an elk or a deer where they stand. If your dad is a bit of a traditionalist, both the fact that its a lever action and the history of the cartridge should appeal to that side of him. The neighbors won't have a problem. Ammo is plentiful and available in a variety of loads. Follow up shots can be almost as quick as an automatic.
Otherwise, get a Browning BAR in .300 WSM and put a muzzle brake on it.
Quote from: Obsessed? on July 03, 2008, 03:09:32 PM
If you're going to be shooting at elk, most would agree that 7mm is probably the smallest practical projectile. The .270 is fine up close, but at distance it just doesn't have a whole lot of energy left once it gets through the shoulder blade. I know quite a few people who have hunted elk with a .308 with great success, as long as the shot wasn't more than 150-200 yards. Beyond that, you have the same problem as you do with the 270 - not a lot of energy left at distance.
For deer, however, the .270 and the .308 are great for as far away as you feel comfortable shooting.
Well, I'd have to disagree there. I shoot a .270, 150-grain bullet for elk, and it does just fine. A LOT of guys do. Incidentally, the .308 doesn't carry that much more energy out there than the .270 does; a bit more, but I expected a bigger jump. Both are good rounds. I'll swear by a nice, flat-shooting .270, for elk. Be smart about your shots; not always a lot of need for making shots over 250 yards.
Besides, he wants a gas-action, not a bolter.
Good articles to get you thinking:
http://ecorover.blogspot.com/2007/12/rifles-for-new-deer-elk-hunter.html (http://ecorover.blogspot.com/2007/12/rifles-for-new-deer-elk-hunter.html)
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIE.html (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIE.html)
And another that give an overview of several legendary cartridges (some of which are decidedly NOT a good choice for deer). Still, interesting overview:
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aasttopriflecar.htm (http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aasttopriflecar.htm)
Ive got the Marlin .45-70 guide gun and its not even close to a light kicking rifle. My Knight .50 muzzle loader gives me a nice push instead of the sharp punch of the guide gun. My Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in 30-06 is the worst kicking gun I own.
Why not buy a Remington Model 700 PSS in .308? Its a heavy rifle with its bedded stock, bull barrel and bipod. All that weight lessens the kick. There also low recoil rounds available.
The Benelli R1 is very cool. I would have bought one if the PSS didnt become available for a song. If you get an R1, post a review. Id like to hear about it.
Good luck!
Quote from: Sinister on July 03, 2008, 04:55:58 PM
Besides, he wants a gas-action, not a bolter.
Which is why my secondary recommendation is a BAR (http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=002B&cat_id=031&type_id=218).
great info guys- really, really appreciate it. the last time I did hunt was with a Model 94 30-30 but now that I can afford a real hunting rifle and not just a ranch carbine I do appreciate the input. Checked out all those rifles and read the articles and am still absorbing as much of it as I can. I agree that the bolt action would be a better long term rifle but my shoulder is truly horked and until I get it fixed (it's been at least 10 years now) I have to take ultimate caution with it.
I do like the BAR and am not ruling it out. When all is said and done though it's not much less expensive than the Benelli which apparently can swap out the barrel and receiver for expanded utility: .30-06, .270 WSM, .300 WSM, .300 Win. Mag.
My concern about the Benelli is the reputed heavy trigger. The lightest reported pull out of the box is an unverified ~5 lb. but most people say it pulls more like 8-10 lb. before smithing. This results in some less than stellar grouping with higher grain loads apparently.
WRT caliber- I sort of expected folks to say that .270 was a bit small for elk so it's surprising and encouraging to see differing results. Likewise- I didn't expect to hear that 30-06 would kick harder than a .45 or .50! All the more reason for me to be cautious about what I get. The Benelli supposedly eats up the recoil so I may be less worried about the larger caliber from the get go, especially if I can swap out barrels if hindsight is sharper than foresight.
Again- thanks and keep it coming!
I've always been very partial to the .243 for deer hunting. Could be a stretch for elk though.
The beautiful thing about the muzzleloader is you can really tailor your load. If 2 50 grain pellets are too much for your shoulder, try a 50 and a 35. Or use granular powder and make your own load.
Another muzzleloader to try is the Savage ML SS which uses smokeless powder. My buddy has one and the thing is very well built with a good trigger out of the box and you dont have to clean it immediately after shooting every time like you do with a regular muzzleloader! Sighting in last year before hunting season, I saw him cloverleaf 3 shots an inch high at 100yds without trying too hard.
you don't need to get a "gas operated" gun to deal with recoil. plenty of 6-7mm range loads which are easy on the shoulder. the .270 is an excellent option.
moreover, if you are not doing this a lot, the bolt guns are easier to clean and service.
i like blackpowder rifles but they are an art unto themselves. the time involved is more than i have at the range. that being said, i have a couple of civil-war era repros which are fun once in a while.
i think you ought to try firing a 270 and see what you think.
oh I've fired several rifles over the course of time including a Sako .270, nice little rifle. I've also hunted with a 30-06 and .223, in addition to my 30-30. When I was a 'kid' I hunted quite a bit so I'm well aware of the kick. If I only get to buy one hunting rifle though I want to make sure it can do whatever I need it to do. I make no claim to being an excellent marksman and expect that whatever rifle I end up with may well have to make up for my lack of skill/ability. I'll spend some time on the range to work on that but I've no intention of becoming a super sniper. ;D
+1 on .270
I would go with the .270 or the .308 if deer is what you will hunt most . You can't beat the .300 Win Mag for Elk.
I have a Ruger .300 Win Mag without the muzzle break and it kills on both ends.
Elk meat makes the best tamales. ;D
Quote from: S4ROB on July 04, 2008, 09:38:38 PM
Elk meat makes the best tamales. ;D
+1!!! I was very happy to discover that my wife is very keen on cooking with elk and she has produced some excellent elkilladas. We'll have to try the tamales too. [thumbsup]
+1 on elk. It stores well too if you get them late in the season. The fat stores the meat really nicely.
It doesn't marble, don't get me wrong, but you get a nice strip of it which cooks well.
I had elk breakfast sausage, yesterday morning, and an elkburger for dinner. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]
Quote from: Sinister on July 05, 2008, 06:13:25 AM
I had elk breakfast sausage, yesterday morning, and an elkburger for dinner. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]
please don't post anything about your elk poop later, mmmkay?
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 05, 2008, 06:41:32 AM
please don't post anything about your elk poop later, mmmkay?
I just let an elk fart slip out...
Quote from: Sinister on July 05, 2008, 06:47:31 AM
I just let an elk fart slip out...
Does it sound like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nynIiOtQxPk
Hope you didn't wake your neighbors.
omg.... i think i saw bigfoot in that video :o
Quote from: DuCaTiNi on July 05, 2008, 06:59:15 AM
omg.... i think i saw bigfoot in that video :o
[laugh]
Why he no shoot??? Beautiful bull, wow!
Quote from: Sinister on July 05, 2008, 11:27:59 AM
Why he no shoot??? Beautiful bull, wow!
+1
nice camera work too!
was browsing rifle info and meandered into info wrt a soon to be released FN .308 (7.62mmx51) called the FNAR. I could see this being loads of fun too and it's not overly 'tactical' looking... I don't think. Obviously it doesn't need to be weighted down with a lot of gear on the rails but it could be more fun at the range as well as for hunting? The action is apparently based on the BAR. Supposed to have been released at the beginning of June but... ???
(http://i26.tinypic.com/2djxwdi.jpg)
'mkay.... reviving my thread with a new question. I think I'm scrapping the idea of the Benelli R1 in favor of the Browning BAR. Too many "iffy" reviews for the Benelli, whereas the BAR gets all kinds of thumbs up.
So- back to caliber. Talk to me like the n00b I am if you would please. What is 'Short trac' versus 'Long Trac'? Is it simply the length of throw for the action? Are there pros and cons to this?
I'm thinking .270 WSM, .308 Win, or .30-06 now.
Thanks again all!
.270
I used this for my moose.
Which BTW made the book! ;D
Flatest shooting round out there.
I also have a 30/30 contender pistol which I use these days as I can use it in Shotgun land ;D
308 and 30-06 are both awesome guns.
Quote from: c_rex on July 07, 2008, 09:17:56 PM
'mkay.... reviving my thread with a new question. I think I'm scrapping the idea of the Benelli R1 in favor of the Browning BAR. Too many "iffy" reviews for the Benelli, whereas the BAR gets all kinds of thumbs up.
So- back to caliber. Talk to me like the n00b I am if you would please. What is 'Short trac' versus 'Long Trac'? Is it simply the length of throw for the action? Are there pros and cons to this?
I'm thinking .270 WSM, .308 Win, or .30-06 now.
Thanks again all!
just Browning's nomenclature for the length of the action, depends on the cartridge.
It is an excellent rifle, there is not really any thing bad to say about them. They are 100+ years old design and work very well.
For comparison, check out the Remington 7400..
The Long/Short trac models aluminum receiver, the Safari is steel. Doesn't really affect much for a hunting rifle
Hopefully not (too much of) a threadjack; where does the BAR acronym for these nice semi-autos come from? Before I clicked on the link, I thought the suggestion was to go after deer & elk with a BAR like this:
(http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/img/media/815_l.jpg)
I poked around a bit on the Browning site & couldn't find an answer; is it also "Browning Automatic Rifle"?
Quote from: triangleforge on July 08, 2008, 09:48:54 AM
Hopefully not (too much of) a threadjack; where does the BAR acronym for these nice semi-autos come from? Before I clicked on the link, I thought the suggestion was to go after deer & elk with a BAR like this:
(http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/img/media/815_l.jpg)
I poked around a bit on the Browning site & couldn't find an answer; is it also "Browning Automatic Rifle"?
BAR just means that.. The name of the rifle you show in the photo is a M1918 or a "Rifle, Caliber .30, Automatic, Browning, M1918" commonly known at the time as a BAR for sanity's sake.
Browning uses the BAR nomenclature for any of its auto rifles, but that is just part of the name.
Also, there is no reason you COULDN'T hunt deer with the M1918 as it is .30-06 in the US MIL form but you'd probably use it in semi-auto mode and not full auto.
But there are probably more accurate platforms around...
and if you stare at it long enough it doesn't look all that different from the current BAR. [laugh]
Thanks for the tons of insight Ducatizzzz! I looked up that Remington 7400 btw- I think it's been replaced by the 750 Woodmaster(?). That too seemed like a nice rifle and is offered in a carbine length for some calibers. The barrel is 4" shorter which seems nice but wouldn't that affect the potential velocity of any given cartridge? Cheers!
Quote from: c_rex on July 08, 2008, 02:23:14 PM
and if you stare at it long enough it doesn't look all that different from the current BAR. [laugh]
Thanks for the tons of insight Ducatizzzz! I looked up that Remington 7400 btw- I think it's been replaced by the 750 Woodmaster(?). That too seemed like a nice rifle and is offered in a carbine length for some calibers. The barrel is 4" shorter which seems nice but wouldn't that affect the potential velocity of any given cartridge? Cheers!
the commercial BAR is about 10 lbs lighter than the mil bar and totally different gas system.. they share a shape, that's about it.
velocity is a tricky subject and for most people it is irrelevant.
I am not much of a hunting rifle aficionado, but my best friend bought a CZ 7mm rifle for Elk Hunting.
It looks pretty nice and he killed one, so I guess it worked out.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 09, 2008, 05:19:43 AM
I am not much of a hunting rifle aficionado, but my best friend bought a CZ 7mm rifle for Elk Hunting.
It looks pretty nice and he killed one, so I guess it worked out.
Wow, bro. Thanks. Riveting. Douche.
I read a bit about the new-ish 7mm (WSM) cartridge being a risky selection for hunting. Sounds good but there isn't a great deal of adoption yet for rifles or ammo and its ballistics don't vary hugely from the .270 until you get to higher grain loads (if I recall correctly). Apparently it shoots well and indeed does kill but ammo may cost quite a bit and be difficult to come by unless you load your own.
---
edit: adjusted above for WSM as that's how it's offered on the BAR Short Trac (270 WSM v 7mm WSM). After talking it over with you guys and my Dad as well as doing a bit more homework I'm gonna go with the BAR 270 WSM. Can't thank you guys enough. I've never had to buy my own hunting rifle before and the selection is overwhelming.
Optics are next I guess. ;D
Quote from: Sinister on July 09, 2008, 07:50:35 AM
Wow, bro. Thanks. Riveting. Douche.
Ditto re: Your response. [roll]
Quote from: Sinister on July 09, 2008, 07:50:35 AM
Wow, bro. I like men.
Quote from: BWClark on July 10, 2008, 04:53:52 AM
Ditto re: Your response. [roll]
You apparently haven't met this idiot before. He has a lot of emotional issues. a priest touched him as a small boy and he hasn't recovered.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 10, 2008, 05:54:06 AM
You apparently haven't met this idiot before. He has a lot of emotional issues. a priest touched him as a small boy and he hasn't recovered.
Father Cyrus?
Quote from: BWClark on July 10, 2008, 04:53:52 AM
Ditto re: Your response. [roll]
I guess I should expect that not everyone knows that Cyrus and I go back and forth, like that, on a daily basis.
Quote from: Sinister on July 10, 2008, 08:42:57 AM
I guess I should expect that not everyone knows that Cyrus and I go back and forth, like that, on a daily basis.
with and without lube.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 10, 2008, 09:19:16 AM
with and without lube.
Hey, it's like, somedays you like fries with your burger, other days you like potato salad. You know.
Quote from: Sinister on July 10, 2008, 11:34:30 AM
Hey, it's like, somedays you like fries with your burger, other days you like potato salad. You know.
I always like fries.
by the way, we did make a kick ass potato salad for the fourth
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 10, 2008, 12:26:22 PM
by the way, we did make a kick ass potato salad for the fourth
How quaint. Did you let HER where the apron this time?
Now wait just a minute... I have my own apron that says, "I'm the Boss" on the front. I hate to cook though- except for lemon bars. ;D
Quote from: Sinister on July 10, 2008, 12:44:37 PM
How quaint. Did you let HER where the apron this time?
i heard she wore the chaps and he wore a saddle.
Quote from: Sinister on July 10, 2008, 08:42:57 AM
I guess I should expect that not everyone knows that Cyrus and I go back and forth, like that, on a daily basis.
So this is a sort of flirting, "hit the girl/boy you like" thing, like back in jr high. How cute.
Quote from: BWClark on July 10, 2008, 06:57:23 PM
So this is a sort of flirting, "hit the girl/boy you like" thing, like back in jr high. How cute.
Should you be rearranging your sweater vest collection, or something?
Quote from: Sinister on July 11, 2008, 08:51:51 AM
Should you be rearranging your sweater vest collection, or something?
Wow, bro. Thanks. Riveting. Douche.
I've actually found this thread very interesting, well, most of it... [cheeky]
... I haven't been hunting since I was 10. I've done a bit of clay shooting, and a bit of plinking with .22 and air rifles since, but I know very little about larger calibre rifles. I think I'd like to maybe do pig/deer/elk hunting in the future, and at the very least I like learning stuff. Thanks!
[thumbsup]
Quote from: BWClark on July 12, 2008, 04:36:56 AM
... I haven't been hunting since I was 10. I've done a bit of clay shooting, and a bit of plinking with .22 and air rifles since, but I know very little about larger calibre rifles. I think I'd like to maybe do pig/deer/elk hunting in the future, and at the very least I like learning stuff. Thanks!
[thumbsup]
many people do boar and javelina hunting with a revolver. .41 mag seems to be a popular choice, as is .44 mag. the preference seems to be to revolvers, which i think reflects the fact that most hunters are conservationists ( and don't like dropping brass randomly ). .41 is more portable and has plenty of power, but the round is not as common as others so it is more expensive per cartridge. i like it a lot, has a lot of power and you don't need a super heavy frame like with .44 mag.
I love the Taurus Tracker in .41.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/TaurusTracker41magnum.jpg)
lots of choices in the 6mm/.270/7mm/.308 range. i am a fan of short action rifles, esp the short magnums. lots of power in a small cartridges.
Quote from: BWClark on July 12, 2008, 04:36:56 AM
... I haven't been hunting since I was 10. I've done a bit of clay shooting, and a bit of plinking with .22 and air rifles since, but I know very little about larger calibre rifles. I think I'd like to maybe do pig/deer/elk hunting in the future, and at the very least I like learning stuff. Thanks!
[thumbsup]
Cool! Always welcome people to get back out into such a great pastime. [thumbsup]
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 12, 2008, 04:54:21 AM
the preference seems to be to revolvers, which i think reflects the fact that most hunters are conservationists ( and don't like dropping brass randomly ).
Two other reasons I know of to use a revolver for boar:
1) Reliability. Its not gonna jam/stovepipe/fail to feed. If you're close enough to get off a shot on a boar with a handgun, he's close enough to do some serious damage if you wound him and piss him off - or worse, miss him - with the first shot.
2) Economy. There are auto-loading handguns out there chambered for the .41 and .44 magnum, but they're usually about twice the cost of a comparable revolver.
+1 on the .41 mag. Great cartridge. Horribly underrated. Also usable for deer.
Quote from: Obsessed? on July 12, 2008, 01:36:01 PM
2) Economy. There are auto-loading handguns out there chambered for the .41 and .44 magnum, but they're usually about twice the cost of a comparable revolver.
+1 on the .41 mag. Great cartridge. Horribly underrated. Also usable for deer.
what autopistol uses the .41 mag? I know of the .41AE, but that is a totally different round.
Might be a custom jobbie, but a friend of mine has a Desert Eagle 10" barrel in .41 mag.
Hella fun to shoot, except that it has a tendency of ejecting the spent shells straight up and back.
Hot brass + scalp = bad.
Quote from: Obsessed? on July 12, 2008, 03:30:24 PM
Might be a custom jobbie, but a friend of mine has a Desert Eagle 10" barrel in .41 mag.
Hella fun to shoot, except that it has a tendency of ejecting the spent shells straight up and back.
Hot brass + scalp = bad.
a Desert Eagle in .41 mag or .41 AE? the Eagles came in .41AE as one of the options, although very few places are making that load now.
no reason you couldn't have a DE in .41mag tho, it was designed originally for .357m
seems like a lot of work for an oddball revolver cartridge tho. cut a barrel, recut the slide's face, make magazines, etc etc.. that's a lot of work. making a one-off barrel would run about 2 grand alone, and that's assuming you can find a blank that's not been broached.