Deer hunting rifle? (maybe elk too)

[c_rex]

Someone posted something about doing stuff with one's Dad before the option is gone which led me to think- I haven't gone hunting with Dad since before college which was waaaaaay long ago.  He converted to black powder which didn't work for me and my injured shoulder- ever fired a .50 muzzleloader? Dad has come back around to part time centerfire for a variety of reasons so I can now seriously think about resuming this sport with him. 
- Dad is old school about not hunting with an AR style weapon for fear of inciting hostilities with locals. 
- Having a bum shoulder I'm looking at rifles that won't beat me up at the range.  So most likely a gas operated action (sorry bolt heads). 
- I'm also a tiny bit sensitive to expedient critter dispatch so as not to make a kill take painfully long, or make Dad trudge over hill and dale with me to find/finish it (yeah I'm lazy- and yes I know placement counts)
- $1200 is about as high as I think I can stomach for the rifle sans optics, slings, etc.

Sooo... experience with specific rifles is preferred but feel free to provide anecdotal evidence if you're confident with the source.  I'm particularly interested in feedback on the Benelli R1 Comfortech stock for its recoil absorption capabilities.

TIA

[VisceralReaction]

I gotta say before I went to only hunting with my .62 blackpowder smoothbore flintlock, I used a remington .270. Loved it and still use it
once and a while. shoots really flat, uses the same cartridge as the 30-06 but necked down to .270.
I have never used more than one well placed shot on an animal, two steps max and they were down. Once buck went 100 feet because i didn't place the shot very well and only hit the liver. It holds 5 shots in the clip and I can accurately put stuff out to 250 yards. I could probably go farther but don't want to screw up the shot. Doesn't beat you up either.

[Buckethead]

If recoil is that big of an issue, why not look into a muzzle brake? My first bolt gun was a .300 Win Mag with a muzzle brake on the end of a 24" barrel. Kicked like a .243. It also belched a ball of fire the size of a cantaloupe every time you fired, but it was plenty accurate and kept people away from me on the firing line. 

If you're going to be shooting at elk, most would agree that 7mm is probably the smallest practical projectile. The .270 is fine up close, but at distance it just doesn't have a whole lot of energy left once it gets through the shoulder blade. I know quite a few people who have hunted elk with a .308 with great success, as long as the shot wasn't more than 150-200 yards. Beyond that, you have the same problem as you do with the 270 - not a lot of energy left at distance. For deer, however, the .270 and the .308 are great for as far away as you feel comfortable shooting.

If you're mostly going for deer, I've always been a fan of the 6.5 X 55 Swedish. Its like magic on deer, and its an almost frighteningly inherently accurate cartridge. Before the advent of .22 and 6mm PPC, Europeans used the 6.5 for match shooting the same way Americans use the .308. Recoil, even from a bolt gun, is moderate. A standard 1" butt pad is more than enough. Put a muzzle brake on one and you'll feel like you're shooting a really loud .22.

You're going to laugh, but my honest suggestion is a big-bore lever action with a ported barrel and a decent butt pad. Marlin makes a Guide Gun in 45-70 that, with moderate factory ammo, is pleasant to shoot and will drop an elk or a deer where they stand. If your dad is a bit of a traditionalist, both the fact that its a lever action and the history of the cartridge should appeal to that side of him. The neighbors won't have a problem. Ammo is plentiful and available in a variety of loads. Follow up shots can be almost as quick as an automatic.

Otherwise, get a Browning BAR in .300 WSM and put a muzzle brake on it.

[Sinister]

If you're going to be shooting at elk, most would agree that 7mm is probably the smallest practical projectile. The .270 is fine up close, but at distance it just doesn't have a whole lot of energy left once it gets through the shoulder blade. I know quite a few people who have hunted elk with a .308 with great success, as long as the shot wasn't more than 150-200 yards. Beyond that, you have the same problem as you do with the 270 - not a lot of energy left at distance.

For deer, however, the .270 and the .308 are great for as far away as you feel comfortable shooting.

Well, I'd have to disagree there.  I shoot a .270, 150-grain bullet for elk, and it does just fine.  A LOT of guys do.  Incidentally, the .308 doesn't carry that much more energy out there than the .270 does; a bit more, but I expected a bigger jump.  Both are good rounds.  I'll swear by a nice, flat-shooting .270, for elk.  Be smart about your shots; not always a lot of need for making shots over 250 yards. 

Besides, he wants a gas-action, not a bolter.

[trenner]

Good articles to get you thinking:

http://ecorover.blogspot.com/2007/12/rifles-for-new-deer-elk-hunter.html
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIE.html

And another that give an overview of several legendary cartridges (some of which are decidedly NOT a good choice for deer).  Still, interesting overview:

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aasttopriflecar.htm

[rgramjet]

Ive got the Marlin .45-70 guide gun and its not even close to a light kicking rifle.  My Knight .50 muzzle loader gives me a nice push instead of the sharp punch of the guide gun.  My Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in 30-06 is the worst kicking gun I own. 

Why not buy a Remington Model 700 PSS in .308?  Its a heavy rifle with its bedded stock, bull barrel and bipod. All that weight lessens the kick.  There also low recoil rounds available.

The Benelli R1 is very cool.  I would have bought one if the PSS didnt become available for a song.  If you get an R1, post a review.  Id like to hear about it.

Good luck!

[Buckethead]

Besides, he wants a gas-action, not a bolter.

Which is why my secondary recommendation is a BAR.

[c_rex]

great info guys- really, really appreciate it.  the last time I did hunt was with a Model 94 30-30 but now that I can afford a real hunting rifle and not just a ranch carbine I do appreciate the input.  Checked out all those rifles and read the articles and am still absorbing as much of it as I can.  I agree that the bolt action would be a better long term rifle but my shoulder is truly horked and until I get it fixed (it's been at least 10 years now) I have to take ultimate caution with it.

I do like the BAR and am not ruling it out.  When all is said and done though it's not much less expensive than the Benelli which apparently can swap out the barrel and receiver for expanded utility: .30-06, .270 WSM, .300 WSM, .300 Win. Mag.

My concern about the Benelli is the reputed heavy trigger.  The lightest reported pull out of the box is an unverified ~5 lb. but most people say it pulls more like 8-10 lb. before smithing.  This results in some less than stellar grouping with higher grain loads apparently. 

WRT caliber- I sort of expected folks to say that .270 was a bit small for elk so it's surprising and encouraging to see differing results.  Likewise- I didn't expect to hear that 30-06 would kick harder than a .45 or .50!  All the more reason for me to be cautious about what I get.  The Benelli supposedly eats up the recoil so I may be less worried about the larger caliber from the get go, especially if I can swap out barrels if hindsight is sharper than foresight.

Again- thanks and keep it coming!

[Speedbag]

I've always been very partial to the .243 for deer hunting. Could be a stretch for elk though.

[rgramjet]

The beautiful thing about the muzzleloader is you can really tailor your load.  If 2 50 grain pellets are too much for your shoulder, try a 50 and a 35.  Or use granular powder and make your own load. 

Another muzzleloader to try is the Savage ML SS which uses smokeless powder.  My buddy has one and the thing is very well built with a good trigger out of the box and you dont have to clean it immediately after shooting every time like you do with a regular muzzleloader!  Sighting in last year before hunting season, I saw him cloverleaf 3 shots an inch high at 100yds without trying too hard.

[ducatiz]

you don't need to get a "gas operated" gun to deal with recoil.  plenty of 6-7mm range loads which are easy on the shoulder.  the .270 is an excellent option.

moreover, if you are not doing this a lot, the bolt guns are easier to clean and service.

i like blackpowder rifles but they are an art unto themselves.  the time involved is more than i have at the range.  that being said, i have a couple of civil-war era repros which are fun once in a while.

i think you ought to try firing a 270 and see what you think.

[c_rex]

oh I've fired several rifles over the course of time including a Sako .270, nice little rifle.  I've also hunted with a 30-06 and .223, in addition to my 30-30.  When I was a 'kid' I hunted quite a bit so I'm well aware of the kick.  If I only get to buy one hunting rifle though I want to make sure it can do whatever I need it to do.  I make no claim to being an excellent marksman and expect that whatever rifle I end up with may well have to make up for my lack of skill/ability.  I'll spend some time on the range to work on that but I've no intention of becoming a super sniper.   

[triangleforge]

+1 on .270

[S4ROB]

I would go with the .270  or the  .308 if deer is what you will hunt most .   You can't beat the .300 Win Mag for Elk.
I have a Ruger .300 Win Mag without the muzzle break and it kills on both ends.
Elk meat makes the best tamales.

[c_rex]

Elk meat makes the best tamales.

+1!!!  I was very happy to discover that my wife is very keen on cooking with elk and she has produced some excellent elkilladas.  We'll have to try the tamales too.