Ducati Monster Forum

Lots of interesting stuff in this piece:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-sales-q1-2013/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-sales-q1-2013/)

While Ducati is down by 5%, that's in the context of a market for motorcycles 500cc+ that's down 17%. Also interesting is that Audi is actually releasing hard numbers for sales of each of the models, something Ducati has long been loathe to do.

This is after several quarters of double digit growth for Ducati, so they probably aren't feeling so bad in the grand scheme. And since their drop is less than a third of the overall segment it ain't so bad.

I can say there's no shortage of sales of Ducati especially Monsters at the Coleman in FC, I worked there PT and the Monsters are usually the first to go, we have to get bikes from Ducpond or other mid Atlantic dealers.

the SF and HM are hurting

I can see the issue of the HM as the 4v version was in production and probably not avail so people didn't want to by the old 2v
come spring with more stock of the 4v and huge price drops on the 2v i can see it going up

but the SF... Ducati may just have to bite the bullet and build the Monster S4R again drop the SF.
either that or build a 1199 based SF to get some blood pumping. and if they did that the Monster S4R could happen...

i know i know they said the Monster is aircooled... but who would have though the HM would go 4v

All Ducati's will be water cooled soon enough.  It is inevitable.

Odd to see the #'s actually broken down though.

I agree that all Ducati's will be water cooled.  The Monster is the only model left at the moment but it is only a matter of time.

I think the sales numbers are very interesting and they confirmed something that I've long suspected, the Streetfighter's days are numbered.

I'm surprised the Streetfighter is their second least selling model.  It is a great streetbike and I'm pretty sure it has had tons of superb reviews.  It is my favorite of the current bikes.  I've ridden all their current models except the 1199. Maybe the 848's niche is just a smaller niche than the others.

I tried to make myself like the street fighter.  I just could not do it...  It was simply to much of everything and not enough of one thing.  If that thing I just said made any sense to you congratulations.  Drink more beer!

Man those numbers illustrate what a win the Multistrada has been. Considering the base Multi is several thousand more than the most expensive monster, the sales numbers on the multi are huge.

No shock the monster represents the biggest unit sales though... has done so since its introduction. That bike has been revenue workhorse for Ducati

I am too quite frankly.  It is a great bike and if it had been available when I bought my Monster I would have it instead.  Only the 1098 SF was available when I bought my bike and it was several thousand dollars more expensive and I kept reading about the handling woes that bike suffered from.  The SF848 doesn't have that problem and 130hp would be plenty for me.

Not surprised that the Multistrada sells as well as it does.  It is a fantastic bike, it has plenty of power, very comfortable ride, great suspension (I rode the S model), it just does everything well.

Too bad they dumped the sir cooled Multi though. A less expensive choice could only help sales. Then again, I guess that is what the Hyperstrada is for.

I am not sure I understand why people are saying that all ducs will be liquid cooled soon. Could someone enlighten me?

emissions

 Both exhaust and noise!

In regards to water cooled ducs, what would the baby monster(695/696/600) be? Can the testastretta be scaled down even more? Completely new engine? 2V? 4V? (its going to get interesting to say the least.) The whole point of the monster line is get you into ducatis so when next time you're shopping for a bike, you're looking at the more expensive offerings ducati has and they have better profit margin on. ie that whole get em while they're young( worked on me)

My draw to the Monster was as a canyon carver for grown ups.  The riding position, the air cooled v-twin and the visible trellis frame were all I needed to smile big.  Oh and about 3g's in accessories......

I love the air cooled twins, sound and feel.  I just don't see a water cooled 4v engine as having the same guttural feeling.  Kinda wish it had a dry clutch and open belts but I suspect the wet clutch and covered belts will result in lower maintenance costs.

Some day I will buy a Multi-----  Maybe ten years when I have to sit completely upright.  As for the race models?  I ride on the streets so skipped them.

they now have an 821 4v, 848 4v, and 1198 4v



then the 1199 4v and likely a 750 or 848 4v superquadra motors

That is NOT a line of engines for new riders though. They would need to make smaller, less expensive motors available to continue to have a full range of bikes for riders of varrying needs. Sure, the could detune a 848 to under 100 HP, but without major modifacation it is still going to want to rev like a SBK. Innit?

Not sure about getting rid of the Monster due to the reasons mentioned above. They might get ride of the 1100 and just keep the 696 and 796. If you want something with more grunt, go with the SF.

The SF848 was going to be the bike I bought when I got back to the US. I love my current Street Triple, but I miss the twins. I'm way too short for a HM or a Multi and too old for a sportbike. The SF is truly the best of both worlds. If they get rid of it, I will buy either another Street Triple or upgrade to a Speed Triple.

They presently electronically limit the 1200 11degree plants in the Multi and Diavel to 100hp. Apply that same tech to the 848 and it's no stretch to get below 100

Still a much more expensive proposal than an air cooled motor which already puts that power out.

Why on earth would anyone want to get an 848 to below 100HP?  ???  :P 

If I had to do it all over again with a new Ducati, or rather another Ducati, it'd be a Streetfighter 1098 for sure.  I have no idea what they are talking about when they bring up handling issues.  The thing puts a Monster to shame in that dept.

Missing the point.

I'm sure Ducati would be quite happy to retain the 2V air cooled motors, however they have to meet emmisions regulations set by "others who can't be named on this board."  So Ducati have two choices: A) Dump money into R&D to make the 2V engines compliant to the regs, which is akin to beating one's head against a brick wall or B) Drop a more efficient by default 4V water cooled engine in and be done.  The HP/Torque characteristics of the bike and the end user's financial interests/capacity are not of any concern to "others who can't be named on this board."

yep, not the point. Point was modern electronics can alter the power output of a given engine radically.

+1.

I also don't think Ducati much cares anymore if they offer a 'low-end' or 'entry-level' bike.  Power has been going up and up through the years and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.  Not to mention that there's a higher profit % in a more expensive bike.  Plus, if Ducati settles on a single engine platform for the non-SBK's (4V testa-evo), that move alone would save a lot of $$$.

All air-cooled Ducati motors will be gone within 3 years (my prediction).

ok so let's get back to predicting the Ducati lineup based on these numbers in the coming years and based on current powerplants or versions there of.

Monster 600 (version of current HM motor)  NO way they drop the smaller Monster, it's money in the bank
Monster 820 (current HM motor)  This is a no brainer as well
Monster 1200 (current MTS motor)  This replaces the SF

MTS 820 (current HM motor -  replaces HS and HM, bases on sales and pricing options this would sell well IMO)
MTS 1200

Diavel

799 (750cc version of 1199 motor)
1199


And my left field... a new SS/ST line. an SS that can optioned out as an ST with hard bags, risers and taller windscreens.
The danger is the 1200 model which could compete with the 799, so maybe the 1200 comes only as the ST version (but those smart enough can swap the 820 parts on it ;) ).

SS 600 (version of HM motor)
SS 820 (HM motor)
ST 1200 (Diavel motor)

Why make an ST when the Multi handles this? Why add an SS when you're going away from the air-cooled engine? Not wanting to get into politics, but can someone tell me if the same emission rules apply even for retro bikes? In other words, if Ducati wanted to make another sport classic, would they need to put a 4v on it?

Retro is just a stylistic term. Emissions stuff would apply.

The SS/ST would be a trellis/semi trellis 4v bike with track credability but added touring capability.

Think

(http://gallery.mvagusta.net/image_db/aviator/45305.jpg)

What is a semi trellis frame?

I showed that as an example of a 4v SS/ST style

likely will develop a frame similar to the Monster/MTS/Diavel/HM with the trellis/semi-trellis/cast mix.

So is HD suddenly going to be out of business or have to resort to using V-Rod motors in all their bikes? I guess I am confused about that even being a possibility.

The rumor that HD will go water cooled has been going around forever. Yet, air cooled reign.

I'd have preferred/would have bought an M796ST had one been available, on the order of an F800GT BMW, but I expect that ST sales were so poor in the past, this is no direction they want to pursue.

Where you are living, the politzei are using F800GT variants for some stuff, right? F-Series are not especially reliable either...., and the Rotax buzzes! I'd have been curious to see what fairing Ducati might have devised with a more upright seating position. I'll bet it wouldn't have had a snout like an insect either..., but what do I know. ;)

I'm fairly sure they don't consider ST bikes much of a market sadly. Not enough with my taste to keep them moving out the door...

Just a comment on this thread and Q1 sales figures: It's not possible to interpret these figures although it's nice to have the model breakdown. You will not see the real picture until you see fiscal 2012 vs fiscal 2013. Not all models are produced all the time.

For ~ 10 years I ordered all the Porsches for one of the larger dealers on the planet. For example, some 911 build slots were only available in quantity during the dead of winter with snow everywhere. If you passed on the build slot though and were not willing to warehouse cabrios until, April or May, you'd be stuck with little or none to sell. That would have cost us a fortune although we DID have to pay for months of floor plan.

In any event, to understand the Big Picture, you need to know all the wrinkles; otherwise you can't truly interpret this stuff.

The FS 800 is my next bike!  I am going to wait a year but I can see that bike being the high mileage beast.  It would be nothing to put in 600 mile days on it.

 Ok, now I want a 900 SS fairing on my 1100 Monster! (If I ever get it back)

That would take some modding. They use a different frame. There is the 1000ss, if you need to replace your bike. http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bikereviews/searchresults/Bike-Reviews/Ducati/Ducati-1000SS-02-current/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bikereviews/searchresults/Bike-Reviews/Ducati/Ducati-1000SS-02-current/)

 I'm thinking more in the lines of an 888 or an early 90's 900SS.

(http://<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JwWQUR2glwb7Md4kppnMDJtBwWUIIEUoCyC-GLv7uY4?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9vK0BMYbjTo/UY6oujthD9I/AAAAAAAAAnY/_JUYh4yLFs8/s144/image.jpg" height="95" width="144" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/112751778743200221986/SpikeSRamblings?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCI-wx9mkmODpkQE&feat=embedwebsite">Spike&#39;s Ramblings</a></td></tr></table>)

This would make me JUMP at the chance to buy another s4r but I do love the Multi.  Still trying to justify a HM if ever there was a used one for a descent price....hell, who needs justification.

Not a bad deal on a HM here: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/mcd/3763940175.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/mcd/3763940175.html)

I think I would still prefere a Multi though. Just better for touring, though not nearly as light.

not bad but I'm cheap especially for what will be my third bike and don't get me started on the shit I'm gonna buy for it to make it a capable "try and arrest me" bike.  ;D

LOL. Color me jealous. I am still bikeless and too low on cash at the moment to fix the problem. I love monsters, but I am looking more towards the Multi and HM as my next bike.

IMO that particular bike is price $1500 to $2000 too high.

The Hyper is a great around town bike. Touring not so much.

Finding a lot of STs in great condition for reasonable money, but of course high miles. http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/mcd/3795038496.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/mcd/3795038496.html)

I just wonder how long till a new lower end is needed.

Depends on a lot of things.
I've got a customer's 1098 at ~14k miles that spun a rod bearing.
My S4 (same engine as ST4) is at ~50k miles and it's just fine.

It really doesn't surprise me sales are down in the first quarter. For most of the country it's still too cold to ride comfortably.

I am curious about other manufacturers sales figures for quarter one to make a comparison.

Wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to see a ST4 revival one day as there are those who want a full fairing mileage eater.  It'd take either A) Ducati having the capital resources to support two bike lines with very similar market share or B) the "dual sport" fad waning off enough to kill the Multi and bring back an ST.

I don't really see that happening.

No one really looks at the Multi as a DS bike. Despite Ducatis insistance that it's '4 bikes in 1' the masses have (rightly IMO) decided that it's a great light sport tour bike.

Bringing back the ST would compete for the market share with the Multi - which is hitting it out of the park by all reasonable measures.

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

Asphalt and Rubber has some great pieces about the Ducati business plan. They have a bike in almost every segment, to the scorn of some of the ducati faithfull. But doing that allows them to pour money into R&D so we can get crazy bikes like the 1199 which drives interest in their other bikes.

My break brief breakdown of the line up
SBKs           - 848/1199 - It will be interesting to see the 848 successor to say the least.
Cruiser        - Diavel      - Ducati's push to grab some of those baby boomer dollars away from harley/other cruisers bikes with big MSRPs
Standard     - Monster   - The money maker. Bring riders into the ducati fold early and you can get them for life(or a SBK or two).
Adv/Touring - Multi        - As slide panda said, more of a sport tourer than a true adv bike. Ties into the racing culture with pikes peak.
Naked SBK   - SF848      - The odd bike out. Maybe they update it with the new baby panigale motor. Maybe we get our wish for a new S4.
Motard/DS   - Hyper      - What segment would you put the motard in? It's too heavy/powerful to be a supermoto. Looks like a DS but has none of the off road capability.

Putting my prognostication hat back on - I came damn close with my Multi 848 predictions in that HyperStrada - I see the SF getting dropped. Might take a couple years, but in that time frame we'll probably see that transition to a more and more reaching 100% water cooled bikes. So at that point, we have water cooled monster(s) again. Water cooled Monster is really the niche that the SF occupies. No way the Monster will go away - they sell too many. So, in Thunderdome style... two bikes enter, one bike leaves.

I'd call the Multi a Sport Tour vs Tour. At least to me a tour bike is a gold wing or big bimmers etc. I see the multi competing more with the Triumph Sprint and such

Hyper - that's a hard on to peg. Motard ergos - but without some of the abilities (DS stuff). But it has that Hooligan appeal of the motard that keeps it attractive. Sitting on one, you look all responsible, upright- tall in the saddle like a good-boy bike, not some villainous shoulders down, ass up Sport biker, oh no no no! But whack the throttle on a hyper and that f'er goes! Eh, like I said, hard to peg a label too, but Ducati did create something with appeal in that.

I might think that Ducati would do a 'select' (my term) line again, like the Sport Classics (not sure why the stopped anywho...) at some point - but they have the get 'that bug' again. 

Looks like the Japs got the Motard to mate somewhere down the line http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/624/16172/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Honda-Grom-First-Look.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/624/16172/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Honda-Grom-First-Look.aspx)  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I2FNtbgXgPA#! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I2FNtbgXgPA#!)

 Does Termi make a pipe for it?

iz bike?

If one parent was a Motard, the other must have been

(http://maydaygarage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Honda_CT70.jpg)

HIGHLY doubt that, but if it happens it will strictly be a marketing decision for Ducati. But I suspect they'll keep something around longer....time will tell.

Any year now there will be a water-cooled H-D in the traditional 45-degree layout. It's inevitable.

Their air-cooled stuff has such lean calibration to make EPA regs it's crazy, and they run super hot. There is programming in the ECU to cut ignition and fuel to the rear cylinder at a certain temp (like during parades or idling in traffic) in order to keep things cooler. 

Back to Ducatis, has anyone ridden the new HM with the 11-degree engine? I looked at one today, and it made me all tingly.  [evil]

a power commander and you're done.  Thanks Cali.

You're right. Coming soon in their touring bikes.
http://thekneeslider.com/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/ (http://thekneeslider.com/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/)

Oh those will be fun to work on. My house has less plumbing

 [thumbsup]

The new Indian/Polaris Thunderstroke engine is air cooled.  Polaris would have designed it to hang around for a while.  I hope Polaris is not the only company that can build EPA legal air cooled -oil too- V-twins in the next few years.  Indian and Victory.

maybe that guy is large, but that bikes seems very small.

12" Wheels - so very small

Motard seen for sale http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/mcy/3808662228.html (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/mcy/3808662228.html)
tempting, was hoping they'd be at 5k by now but who knows

I saw that the other day and would totally jump on it if I had the money. Kbb says $8440 and nada says $9695. Someone is going to get a good deal.

I've been riding Harleys (and Guzzis, and BMWs, and other air-cooled bikes) for over 2 decades. That ENTIRE time people were convinced that air-cooled bikes were done, next year, every year.

It's true that it has gotten harder and harder to get through the emissions standards, but EFI was a game changer.

In the end it will be up to the EU and EPA regulations to really determine when the end will come.

Obviously companies like Harley or BMW or Guzzi would be silly to ignore the possibilities and not research other solutions/designs/updates.

But the sky is not falling.


To that end Moto Guzzi just designed a brand new Cali 1400 8V air-cooled motor as well. And just redesigned their 750 with significant updates.

I could be wrong, but I believe EVERY motorcycle company still sells at least some Air-Cooled motorcycles, and that's ALL that Harley, Guzzi, Victory/Indian, and Royal Einfield sell, not to mention Triumph has a significant portion of their annual sales in air-cooled models.

Now BMW looks like they're getting close to all-water cooled models, well sorta, the new GS is PARTIALLY water-cooled (heads only) It can supposedly run indefinitely on air-only cooling only should some component of the water-cooling system fail.

And it wouldn't surprise me if Ducati was next in line to go all water, unless it was one of the Japanese companies, though I still suspect they sell into enough markets that they would have some small air-cooled bike available somewhere long after Ducati made the final commitment.

Regardless, the sky is not falling.

Viva la "air-cooled" bikes.

 [Dolph]

Then again, I've been wrong before  [laugh] maybe it IS getting closer finally.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/06/04/new-moto-guzzi-liquid-cooled-v-twin-engine-work-in-progress/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/06/04/new-moto-guzzi-liquid-cooled-v-twin-engine-work-in-progress/)


Of course, the US doesn't see new Guzzis for a year or more after they are introduced worldwide. And they say NO EARLIER than 2015, meaning we might not see something until 2020 lol.  :D

EDIT - and insiders from Mandello who post on WildGuzzi say that

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=62389.40 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=62389.40)

I MAY have to recant one or more of my above posts.

Just left a local dealer who is CERTAIN Harley is going to announce that Water-Cooled motor for the 2014 Street Glide and a couple of their trikes.

If that's true the whole touring line can't be far behind - maybe by next summer (2015 models).

Time might finally be running on out my beloved air-cooled twins of multiple brands.  >:(

It's hard to tell whether or how soon things would go all water-cooled.  Sometimes "those who cannot be mentioned on this board" move slowly... sometimes they move quickly.  Diesel vehicle emission controls are a prime example.  The allowable numbers have dropped dramatically since the 1990's, yet the industry did have years of warning that the regs were coming (and what the new requirements would be).  Unless you all know of new regs in the pipeline, and know when they will be enforced, I don't think it's possible to predict when liquid cooling will become required to meet said regs.  Obviously, they meet and exceed the current regs with air-cooled engines right now, and for at least the next few years (considering the investment we've seen in new air/oil designs).

Regardless of if/when Ducati goes all-water, the upshot is, there are parts galore and will be support long into the future for the Duc air-cooled twins.  Keeping older units running for decades should not be a problem.

They have recently filed patents on water cooled heads and radiators worked into the leg shield doohickeys of one of the tour models. Waters coming to HD. a little time on google will get you the patent illustrations

I first saw those diagrams a couple of years ago, I'm well aware it was in the pipeline, just didn't think they were bringing it to market quite yet.

Still hoping they are staying ahead of the curve and will not have to make it line wide for a number of years.

Not Duc news - but one of the sub topics in here/ Water cooled HD models announced

http://www.jsonline.com/business/harley-davidson-unveiling-eight-new-models-b9977387z1-220141861.html (http://www.jsonline.com/business/harley-davidson-unveiling-eight-new-models-b9977387z1-220141861.html)

Yeah - actually there was a lot of good news in the midnight release of new HD models

Sportsters all can have ABS optional now. And whether or not they do they've upgraded the front brakes again (300mm rotor and stronger 34mm dual-piston caliper).

Touring models got the biggest changes - upgraded 103" motor for most models, water-cooled for only the top level Ultra-Glide and the Trike (for now) so you can still get air-cooled on most of them. They've gone to linked ABS Brembo brakes (I'm not a fan of the linking, but at least the ABS is still optional on most models). They've updated a lot of other little things too, saddlebags, hand controls, and a lot of electronics including full touch-screen GPS/Audio/Bluetooth/Text-to-Speech etc stuff.  A little more than I want on my bikes, but I'm glad they're trying to keep up in the markets in which they compete.

Here is a thought,  Maybe a water cooled Harley will be a good thing.  The lump of a heat pump that the current versions are good at cooking things and maybe (though doubtful) I will see less HD's on the side of the road broken down.  ;D

As usual, liquid cooled HD (I mean, really HD, not VRod stuff) has been in the rumors by forever (likely the more recurring post on HDForums after the usual Oil Thread), and still, did not happen even for 2014.
HD built its business success on people liking the tradition of the typical air cooled HD V-Twin, and those would not like (I put myself in the group) a liquid cooled HD.
For the rumors (which seem by far way more real than HD ones - see recent posts about it) about the new 1198cc liquid cooled Monster, I am split.
On one side, I'd like the more HP a liquid cooled engine would bring into the table, but, OTOH, this would also change the cleanness of the 2V air cooled engine lines, which I like a lot.

Maybe you guys should start a HD thread.

Uh dood, IT HAPPENED...."Twin Cooled High Output Twin Cam" with dual radiators and coolant overflow bottle located in fairing lowers was introduced this past weekend.

It's found in the top trim level Ultra and the Trike.

Now on topic, any Ducati news?

Perhaps this will bring their sales up for 4 qtr this year and 1st qtr next year.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/ducati-899-panigale-spy-photo/

+1

It has a DSS, but still...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv155/Caliga10/hitit.jpg)

To tell you the truth, I would take the 848 over the 899 if was only based on looks.

Strange how just a swingarm change makes it look (to the minds eye), like an R6 .

I foresee many 1199 swingarm swaps

Since the DSS and the SSS mount to the motor and the 899 cases are going to be set up for DSS, maybe not.

<shrug> To each his own.  I wouldn't turn up my nose at either of them.

There are things about the 1198 that I love.  There are things about the 1199 I love.  I was seriously considering buying a bike as a "screw it, I survived cancer, I want a pretty toy" thing.  Kinda like a midlife crisis, except brought on by staring down death.  Anyway, I shopped used Panigales and used 1098s and 1198s.  I honestly have a really hard time deciding between them.  They're both beautiful.  I got over the whole stared-down-death thing, took a hard look at the budget, and got back to reality... which is why I don't have one in the garage right now.

Sorry to hear that on a number of fronts.
Glad you're ok.

the 999 and mts dss are setup same as sss so i don't see this being an issue
Probably sss, wheel and speedo healer will be the needed items

If this were any other bike company there wouldn't be as much crap about the swingarm. But since it is Ducati and part of the reason most people buy Ducs is for the looks(whether they admit it or not). They can't even hide it with an big ol exhaust can either(cough RSV4 cough). I think they are trying to cut as much cost out as they can so they can price it competitively. Most people can't afford a 19k SBK, but a 15k(guessing here) isn't that far of a reach. I like it, Ducati seems to be the only company with some balls. They keep changing everything that makes a Duc a Duc and are getting away with it.  8)