Ducati Monster Forum

It's official and I'm happy as can be.

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200720/1/official-ducati-goes-open-class-for-motogp-2014.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200720/1/official-ducati-goes-open-class-for-motogp-2014.html)

 [popcorn]

development begins officially under Gigi's regime' !!!

I wonder how Crusty feels about this decision

:edit: I answered my own question

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200739/1/cal-crutchlow-talks-open-motogp-move.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200739/1/cal-crutchlow-talks-open-motogp-move.html)

This is by far the smartest thing they have done in years. truly, they have nothing to lose.

Is that decision already affecting how the bikes perform?

Lats test at Sepang shows some promise and I wonder what they ride today.

From what I've read, neither Crutchlow and Dovi tested the softer rear. Only Crutchlow tested the spec software, and said he was immediately within a couple tenths of his times using the factory software.

They rode mostly the Factory option, but apparently when they rode the Open they were not too far away. They were also not using the softer option tire. From Cal's interview, the extra fuel wasn't that big a deal in Sepang. I'm sure it will be for the races that the Yamaha always seems to run out of fuel on the cool down lap.

Yonny Hernandez has been entered as an 'open' Ducati rider since the start.
We can assume he's been on an 'open' spec bike the whole time.

Dovisioso and Crutchlow both rode an 'open' bike on the last day of this test.
Not for the whole day, just at the end, Dovi did a race simulation on it.
Supposedly just a bit slower.
Not sure what Iannone's been running.

They're being a bit coy about who ran what, and when, so I may not have the true story, or not comprehended all the info correctly.
Possibly more details coming out later.

New info to me today, but the difference between 'open' and 'factory' is not only software, but there is an 'open' set of handlebar switches that must be used, and an 'inertia platform' that has gyroscopes and accelerometers and such.
So it's not just loading new software.
I've not seen any info on whether engine sensors, wheel speed sensors, etc. are 'open' spec items, or if the teams can use whatever they want.
Enough to make me think that switching the same bike from 'factory' to 'open' isn't a 5 minute job.

Also, there was a large software upgrade brought to Sepang 2 for the 'open' bikes.
But (purportedly) nobody ran it, because it's quite a bit more complex, more data tables to populate.
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200707/1/very-big-open-software-upgrade-not-yet-used.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200707/1/very-big-open-software-upgrade-not-yet-used.html)

Coincidentally, there is info that Ducati brought 'a big software upgrade' to Magneti Marelli recently.
It's within the rules, you can use any software you want, as long as it's shared amongst all the open bikes.

I suspect that Ducati did use the official MM upgrade at this Sepang 2, likely because they're the ones that developed it.

This could be a standing advantage for Ducati, if they continue to develop software in testing, with new features or algorithms.
Do enough running to get the data tables populated and tuned, then drop it on MM's doorstep a couple days before the next race.
They then hit the ground running, and other open teams are left to figure it out.

I'm not aware if there's any software homologation that prevents this last scenario.

I've heard some teams are already complaining about the amount of data that Ducati has provided to MM. I think the other factories are probably looking into the situation, since they see the writing on the wall and don't want Ducati to have this advantage going past this season.

Honda complains about getting out-Honda'd. News at 11.

http://au.eurosport.com/moto/ducati-class-switch-angers-honda_sto4160697/story.shtml (http://au.eurosport.com/moto/ducati-class-switch-angers-honda_sto4160697/story.shtml)

So the bully has had its nose bloodied and runs crying to mommy...  [bang]

Personally I don't like Ducati doing this.  In my opinion they are masking a bad chassis with higher fuel/power/engine limits.  Honda/Yam will still win, but you have to admit if they went open with more fuel/power, Ducati would be right back where they started.  The step up in performance comes with an asterisk.  Its a factory effort playing by different rules.

Poor Livio.

He keeps closing the stable door, and there's still no horse.

No it isn't. It is a factory effort playing by the written rules. It's legal, and that's all that matters. If they wanted factories excluded, then it should be in the rules. Intent, spirit, fundamental basis, etc. for the rule is all BS.

Besides, the engine limit and fuel limit rules were pushed through mainly by Honda because they have the budget for it. They're stupid rules to begin with.

The Ducati chassis may be bad...or it may be bad for the spec. tire (another stupid rule). We're not really sure.

Either way...some teams win with a great handling bike and less power, others win with an OK handling bike and a shit ton of power. Who cares...a win is a win, and the differences make racing more interesting.

If Honda/Yamaha feels they are at a disadvantage, they are free to run Open as well. That's what Dorna wants in the long run anyway. Don't be so quick to negate the importance/effectiveness of the Factory software though...it may prove to be a huge advantage.

I don't think Honda cares that Ducati is Open...they care that the Open software appears to be from Ducati.

HRC pretty much controls MSMA. MSMA loses bargaining power if Ducati agrees to follow the rules set by Dorna. They would be in a safer position if Suzuki was there with them.

Fair enough and nothing different than yearly interpretations and changes within F1.  However, I just don't see any merit to staying as a full factory effort at this point.  Why not run open and be done with it.  We have a basic yamaha chassis with more fuel/power on the NGM bike and its damn near as fast as the factory bikes and faster than the satellites.  Now Ducati pulls the cork and catches up with more power.  We essentially move backwards towards less efficiency and unlimited engines of years past.  The "show" will be better this year, but why let the others catch you.  Yam/Honda could change format and go back to smoking everyone.  They still get to work on engine and chassis development regardless of cpu, so having presence in GP retains merit.

I think the plan is for everyone to be Open in the near future...if Dorna has their way. The major cost now is software development (reportedly). Spec ecu and spec software eliminates most of that cost...achieving the goal of cost reduction. At that point I'd gess engine numbers will be limited across the board...trying to keep costs in check there as well.

Honda has said they'd pull out of the series if forced to use spec software, but I think they're bluffing. Their trickle down argument for wanting to develop electronics is BS anyway...Honda roadbikes are the least sophisticated on the road on that front.

I'm not convinced Ducai will catch up with power. Starting a race with the weight of an extra 4 L of fuel is a serious handicap, and Ducati has never been short on power. Although, more fuel could allow the power delivery to be softened. Yamaha is having problems this year with harsh delivery due to the bike having to be run so lean. Ducati needs to work on their chassis still though...which the Open rules will make possible (due to allowable engine changes, like mounting points). It might also give them an advantage if everyone goes Open soon.

It'll be interesting to se how it develops this year...is the Yamaha Open bike really that fast, or is Espargaro just that good? Can Ducati improve enough to be competitive? Can Yamaha factory deal with redued fuel and softer rear tire?

Personally I think fuel limits and too strict engine limits (i.e. 5 sealed...12 sounds reasonable (not sealed)) are dumb. Fuel is self limiting to an extent...too much and there's too much weight. We're not trying to build hybrids here, we're trying to get around the tracks as fast as possible, which eats a few motors. The show is ALL that matters, really, because if people lose interest it goes away.

I thought the plan was that everyone was going to be open in 2015?  Or at least thats what Dorna is pushing for.

But yeah, I think going Open was a really smart decision by Duc... it just makes too much sense.  Having total freedom to ground up fix a broken bike is going to be the only way they are going to be competitive again.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp-race/why-the-door-was-left-open-for-ducati/ (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp-race/why-the-door-was-left-open-for-ducati/)

some great thoughts from the DORNA side on this as quoted from having come from Mike Webb...

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200859/1/motogp-to-create-factory-2-class.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/200859/1/motogp-to-create-factory-2-class.html)

Really?

I mean...really?

Now that is bullshit. Just goes to show how deep Dorna is in HRC's pocket. To tell you the truth, I don't see Ducati getting many top 3 finishes this year anyway or really needing the extra fuel, but if the ultimate goal is to get all the factories using the spec ECU, Dorna should have celebrated the move.

Goes to show you that if you've got deep pockets and pregnant dog enough you can get shit changed. Ducati should still be in a good place to develop the bike throughout the year. Lets see where things for the 2014 racing season. I dont care if Ducati doesn't get a podium this year, develop the bike and challenging for the top should be enough.

+1

I just read the same thing here practically

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2014/Mar/140306a.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2014/Mar/140306a.htm)

he is right about the amount of ammunition this would give DORNA's critics about rolling rulebook changes....

Thanks to the short-sightedness of the FIM--who are now basically powerless--Dorna are in total robber baron mode, with CEO Ezpeleta saying that Honda's dissatisfaction with the current rules and their threats to leave MotoGP for WSBK are meaningless, because "Dorna are there as well". He is doing all he can to force all of the factory teams into the "Open" designation with Dorna's software and ECU controlling the bikes.
If this was the case why bow to Honda to create a special class for any and all serious 'Open' competition?

Just plain bullshit.

Exactly.

If Dorna wants spec ecu and software, then just announce it. I really doubt that Honda will leave. Instead, they're bowing to Honda while at the same time trying to convince them to accept Open. What a joke.

F1 went spec. and the factory teams remain.

not only did they go spec, they did so with an ecu designed and built by a company affiliated with one of the competitors:

http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/ (http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/)

I think it might also be because Honda provides the Moto2 and half of the Moto3 engines.

Maybe this was a way for Dorna to let Aleix have a satellite open bike? Because it seems that he's gong to be running a Yamaha frame vs the mythical ftr frame he was supposed to be getting. So Aleix will basically have a factory 2 bike vs the open bike he was supposed to get.

So they kill three birds with one stone... Make Honda a bit happier while letting Yamaha have their first taste of the open class and maybe tempting them into staying there. And ducati still gets to develop their bike with a minimal hit... Cal said that the extra fuel wasn't too big of advantage and the engine limit only kicks in after they start to win.

If I think about it like that then it's not too bad of a result.

ain't too bad unless you consider a crashfest rain ridden race where the field gets decimated and the winner by more default than anything else ends up being one of those Open machines.....I think there was a rain race at LeMans a few years ago where there were like 6 different race leaders and all because of attrition more than anything else....thgat comes to me as a perfect kind of example...

From this article:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/motogp-intermediate-factory-2-category-rule-change/#more-58210 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/motogp-intermediate-factory-2-category-rule-change/#more-58210)

"It is also unclear whether weather conditions will be taken into account when assessing results. When the engine allocation rules were first brought in, an exception was made for factories which had not had a dry win, the same logic could be applied here."

If that's in there then the wet race attrition factor should be mitigated imo.  And it seems that there is precedent for that kind of rule.

The main problem here is that Dorna changed a major portion of the rules 2 weeks before the 1st race of the season, and 1 day before the last official test. That is unbelievable, especially at this level!

Everyone knew how the Open and Factory rules worked, including Honda. The actual rules don't sound all that bad really...lose 1.5L of fuel and 3 engines if you do well...not the end of the world I guess, and Ducati can still develop. Punishing the Open teams for doing well is an odd concept though.

Like I said...if they want a spec ecu, nut up and make it a rule. Give the teams plenty of notice.

To me... it's more about the diplomacy aspect and I actually would have done the same as Dorna did in retrospect.

In terms of cost/benefit analysis, I see this helping Dorna's plans more than anything else.  If they just took the hard line and forced rules down the factories throats there would be a pretty high chance that Dorna would burn a whole crapload of bridges it cant afford to burn yet.  Honda has left racing series before (F1) so it's not unimaginable that they would again.  And Honda has a pretty long memory for slights.

So on the benefits for Dorna we see:
1. Honda is a little less butt hurt over the Open bikes.
2. Aleix, who is everyone's underdog hero right now, gets as close to a factory bike as he can get.
3. Yamaha gets to play around in the Open class and get a head start on development.
4. Ducati gets a chance to make a bike that actually works
5. The jpn factories will probably be a lot more open about working with MM on the new ecu when they next get invited to participate in it's development. Reason being that they are just going to handicap themselves if they dont have a say in it's development.
6. Dorna manages to maintain relations with the factories and save face for them.  Important as this a small group of people that will have to deal with each other for years and hurting those relationships will affect future negotiations.

On the cost side:
1. internet flames

Sure, this isnt the balls out hard core decisions we would have loved to see... but it's actually a pretty solid step in the right direction.  Because, in the end, we're still going to probably see what we want to see from the racing this year.  More competitive bikes duking it out and better races.

let me play this thought out into the open for a moment....

20 liters of fuel for a factory bike....on a longer track like say Aragon for example, where they are running low on fuel and "throttle back" the consumption to last the race, that means they lose speed and therefore the open bikes have the ability to catch up and possibly place while factory bikes run out of fuel and sputter to a halt....


not that far out of the realm of reality here really.....chew on that for a moment.....

Only really seems to be an issue for Yamaha right now I think.  Honda doesnt have any fuel issues and I've never seen Duc really have any either.

I read somewhere that it might be because of the I4 vs V4 engine configuration and how the I4 is harder to cool which makes them have to run it richer.

OKAY...so how many factory bikes are there on the grid right now?....and how many of them are at the sharp edge of the front....so if the 2 factory Yammy's run out of fuel ( and the 2 Tech3 bikes since they are practically the same spec)...you then give an open door to Aleix Espargaro to run that freight train right past them into a podium spot....and now Aleix has 9 motors and 22.5 ltrs of fuel whole Colin keepos the extra fuel and motors ( or do both Forward Yammys suffer that fate since they are on the same team?)

Why would an I4 be harder to cool than a V4?  They are all liquid cooled so configuration alone shouldn't matter. The size of the cooling jackets/ports & radiator area would seem to have more effect to me. Dunno?

I'm pretty sure that to get the motor narrow enough on the I4 they've siamesed all the bores, so no water passes between the cylinders.

V4 isn't dimensionally restricted in that direction, so likely full jackets.

But Y and H continue to refuse to send me blueprints, so that's only based on suspicion and internet innuendo.

Didnt quite get the last bit of your post (autocorrect I'm guessing) but I see this as what Dorna wants to happen.  Will make the move to Factory 2/Open bikes more appealing to Yamaha.  And, according to the rules and if Yam had the extra cash, they could pop open Aleix's bike's engines and start to develop them over the course of the year like Ducati.  Which leaves Honda as the only factory left that really benefits from having a full factory spec team... Yamaha might make the decision that running a factory 2 team with a spec ECU they are helping to develop along with the associated benefits is better than running a full factory one.  And if Factory2 options start to beat out Hondas... pretty sure Honda would make the decision to go that route too.  Same way they moved to a V2 in WSBK just to win.

And I wouldnt say that Aleix would have a open door to the front, even if the Yams run out of fuel, Aleix will still have to deal with the satellite Hondas... If the factory/satt yam's nose dive, I think we'd just see a Honda podium,  podium order probably being something like MM, Pedrosa, Bradl, Bautista.

In the end,  with this new open/factory2 rulebook, it seems that this is the choice that Dorna is giving the factories.  Would you prefer to spend all your money on developing your own ECU or would you prefer spending all your money developing your engine over the course of the year?

And for the I4 cooling, it's as Speeddog said.  Just internet speculation but makes a bit of sense considering the V4 bikes have no issues but the I4 bike does.  But of course it's to be taken with a grain of salt as the internet was pretty wrong about the 90 degree V4 Ducati was running was the issue too.

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2014/Factory+2+explained+by+Javier+Alonso (http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2014/Factory+2+explained+by+Javier+Alonso)
[cough]bullshit[cough]

Only kind of wrong. Ducati's V4 is longer than Hondas, which still could be the problem.

most of this thread TLDR; so i may be repeating something

so honda was upset when ducati chose Open because that was not in the spirit of Open as they understood it.  might have been technically ok, but not how they understood it was supposed to work. 

the real issue came up when honda discovered that the 'spec' Open software was in fact ducati's 2013 factory software.  as in, literally.

sure, maybe ducati hands that package over to any Open team so it can be 'continuously developed' and shared by all.  but the fact is that suddenly ducati got more fuel, softer tires, more than 2x the engines, the ability to develop during the season, and the exact same electronics package they were running in november.  sepang 2, suddenly dovi is .3 off the front.  Honda cries bullshit, says we left once, we'll do it again.

hence this subsequent factory 2 nonsense.

i'm really starting to support the f1 model, including Phone Home.  let's get back to racing.

 [thumbsup]

If you read the above article, it states that all manufacturers were given the chance to help improve the MM ECU. Both Honda and Yamaha declined. Honda is now butt hurt because they did not see this move coming? It's not that Ducati made a shady deal with MM. In the end, HRC does provide a ton to MotoGP, more than any other manufacturer. Dorna can't afford for them to pull out like they did in F1.

And if the pot weren't stirred enough yet, there's this:

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/201006/1/ducati-to-sell-open-bikes.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/201006/1/ducati-to-sell-open-bikes.html)

I can hardly wait for the season to start; if pre-season has been any indication, there's going to be a soap opera every single weekend, and some of the least-predictable racing we've seen in a long time.

IIRC, they offered bikes for sale a while ago.

Oddly enough, nobody stepped up.  :P

While I agree it would be detrimental to GP for Honda to pull out, I also don't think Dorna can afford to have it appear that Honda is calling the shots...

and it does.

Good synopsis of the whole situation:

http://motomatters.com/opinion/2014/03/10/the_factory_2_farce_how_poor_communicati.html (http://motomatters.com/opinion/2014/03/10/the_factory_2_farce_how_poor_communicati.html)

Either way, I'm more excited about this year than last year and that's a good thing in my book.

all this drama makes me want moto3 all the more.

I'd love to see one season's racing with "no rules", other than those necessary for safety…. [evil]

Honda would win by smashing the rest of the competition with their wallet... not too far from what is happening now really but more overt.

That being said, I would dearly love to see what they would come up with in order to guarantee success.

psssssst.....let me let you in on the winner there.....KTM !!!

http://m.motomatters.com/news/2014/03/18/factory_2_rules_adopted_for_2014_spec_so.html (http://m.motomatters.com/news/2014/03/18/factory_2_rules_adopted_for_2014_spec_so.html)

Back to two classes but everything works like the factory/factory2 plan.  Full spec ecu's by 2016 though

Either Dorna called HRC's bluff or they had to give up something huge later down the line to get HRC to agree to the spec ECU for 2016. Did HRC see the writing on the wall?

More importantly, does this mean that now WSBK will become the test bed for manufacturers to develop their electrons?

I don't see that happening as Dorna has already said they want to implement cost cutting, and a downgrading of technical specs inSBK.

Like the article said, the manufacturers will not develop anything out of the ordinary. So where will we see them actually developing electronics? Maybe it's time for a new race series in the US with relaxed rules.

Hard tellin'. Maybe they won't.

The manufacturers...Honda in particular...have said they use racing to trickle advances to road bikes.

What's left...auto pilot...accujacks?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Honda uses the least amount of electronics on their road bikes.

Really don't know.

I don't scour the rags trying to keep tabs on what they do.

I hope Dorna did call Honda's bluff and didn't concede anything.

To my knowledge, they are the only brand without traction control on any of their bikes right now.  Suzuki/Triumph have it on their ADV models but not on their other bikes.  Yam/Kawi have it on their sportbikes with Kawi having it on almost all of their bikes.

As for WSBK, I dont think there are any rules on traction control development right now... but I've read before that they are looking at limiting electronics.

I dont follow F1 but so I gotta ask... how did the spec ecu there affect traction control development?  Or is F1 not really seen as a development test bed for most manufacturers like MotoGP is?

one of the reasons the spec ecu was implemented in formula 1 was to ban traction control.

it's alleged that red bull developed a system that didn't involve the ecu at all:

http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-invented-a-secret-new-hybrid-technolo-1442585020 (http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-invented-a-secret-new-hybrid-technolo-1442585020)

If this would be the case, wouldn't they have a leg up with the current ultra torquie engine?

Pretty interesting... basically like the seamless gearbox development for MotoGP it seems.

So taking any example from F1, TC development for bike shouldn't slow down too much without the  development in the higher echelons of racing.  Unless you factor in that the car market budget for development is way bigger than bikes.

it seems like renault is having issues across the board.

iirc, they also changed the wording of the rule:

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8710/fia.html (http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8710/fia.html)

9.3 Traction control :

No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

So the manufacturers would need to develop "smart" transmissions of some sort? The most likely impact is that manufacturers will simply outsource all their ECU development to MM or other providers for their street bikes.