Ducati Monster Forum

Well, another project, or well a return to a stalled project

What we have here is (not a failure to communicate :P) but a 1978 Suzuki TS185.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/DSC_0120-1024.jpg)

History:

My dad purchased this bike in the fall of 1978.  I wasn't even a year old then.  He did a little trail riding with another family member and used it to run around the property and back and forth to my grandparent's house that was about 3/4 a mile away.  Never saw heavy/abusive usage, just got rode around and found a little mud here and there.

Fast-forward about 10 years.  I had a Honda TRX125 for a while, and this bike really kept tempting me to ride it, every time I saw it in the shed to get my 4-wheeler out.  Dad hadn't ridden it for a few years at the time.  I finally asked, and we got it out and it became the first motorcycle I ever rode, and boy did I.  It was the coolest thing I'd ever ridden.  I had a couple small "whoopsies" that I didn't tell Mom or Dad about because Mom would have likely banned me from it since she wasn't not happy at all Dad taught me how to ride it.  I rode it until one day I went to kick it over and kicked myself right off it.  That's right, the piston had seized.  I was sad, no more motorcycle.  It went into the back of the shed to collect dust since we didn't have the money to fix it.

Fast-forward another 18 or 19 years.  I had been riding on the street and tinkering on bikes for a few years and had bought a house.  One random night, I got the bright idea I wanted to get that TS running again because it is a hoot to ride.  So, I rescued it from the shed, in the rain.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/Suzuki0003-1024_zps0509094f.jpg)

I did a few little things, cleaned the carbs, got it running ok, put a clutch in it etc.  Removed the seized piston and did a 1mm overbore and basically did a top-end rebuild.  In my dining room.  Can you tell I was a bachelor at the time?
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/Partial02-1024_zpsa3f6d45b.jpg)

I finally got a bucket of parts from my parent's basement.  That bucket contained all of the stuff that made it a street legal dual-sport, it's original configuration.  That got it to a decent running and decent looking bike.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/Suzuki0004-1024_zps4f1a67a7.jpg)

However, I never got the electrics working right. So, I ran it around the yard and neighborhood and finally it just got parked.  It's sat for three or four years. 

Now, I'm revisiting it.  I *hope* I can get the electrics working right.  I'll have to clean the carb out since it had been sitting, but I REALLY want to tag this bike and ride it around town.

Thanks for reading and feel free to toss any useful knowledge my way!

JM

I've got no useful knowledge beyond: it's a motorcycle, and you should ride it!
Nice job getting it going again, good luck on the electrics.
It's not magic, just try not to let the smoke out of the expensive pieces.

Just reminds me of my first bike, 1983 or 84 DR125, yellow/blue colour scheme was too tall for me, but, I got on it  . . . rode it in my backyard and one weekend, it dissappeared  :'(

Yea. know what you mean.  Dad put a large block of wood by the shed for me.  I couldn't touch the ground while on it when I first started riding.  I had to use the block to stand on to kick start it and to get on and off it!

Seev;  I certainly plan on riding it, it's top speed is aroudn 45-50, but it sure is fun to ride!

JM

I restored a GT550 and am almost ready to start (try and start) a H1e project.  Your bike looks really great for the year.  You've got all the really hard to replace bits in good shape.  The electrics on bikes of that era are relatively straight forward.  I'm guessing by electrics you mean no spark?  There are not many places that can go wrong and a volt meter can trace any problem down.  The most common problem would be the coil followed by possibly the condenser.  A tricky one is (my GT550 had this problem) the spark plug cap comes apart and there is a resistor chip/spring inside.  The hidden bits can get rusty up in there and really weaken the spark. If you have spark then maybe revisit the carb.  I had one cylinder on my triple that gave me problems.  The carb looked just as good as the other two but the third time I had it apart I must have done something different and got it running OK.  Have you pulled the needle jet and cleaned it up?  FYI - e10 can do some serious damage to the carb and crank seals.  Good luck - I love old 2 strokes.

Does it have a battery?

Actually, ignition circuitry is fine.  Once I have the carb cleaned up and make sure it's getting oil from the oil pump it'll run good most likely.

The electrics I'm having trouble with is the lighting circuits.

It does have a battery, but it's a tiny 6V one that doesn't seem to exist anymore.

JM

So far what I've learned...

1.  Never, ever let premix sit.  It had a tank of premix due to concerns the CCI had failed. I have a carburetor full of black sludge.  I'll be washing out the tank as well, since there was some in it.

2.  This is the most simple bike I've ever worked on as far as mechanical stuff goes.  I had the tank off, air box removed and carb removed in about 15 minutes.

JM

That old Montesa I got had premix left in it and it seized the motor. I pulled the barrel off and have the bottom end soaking in ATF.

I have a soft spot for the ol' TS185  [thumbsup]

Looking forward to following the progress of yours... especially as it has history, been in the family for so long.

Rinsed the old pre-mix out of the tank with fresh gas and carb cleaner.  I probably looked like an idiot standing in the driveway shaking a gas tank for all it was work  [laugh]

Petcock was so sludged I could barely turn it.  It's currently partially disassembled and will be further disassembled. 

Carburetor cleaner to the face isn't much fun.

JM

How'd you know?

;D

I remember the simplicity of such bikes. I've had a few over the years, all pretty darn easy to work on.

Hope it's running sweetly soon.

Good luck, JM.

Wish I could get my dad to part with the old Rokon that's sitting in the shed at home.

He wouldn't teach me to ride it, only my sister.  She dropped it once and never tried to ride it again.

B dug it out and ran it several years back.

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn43/Desmodiva/DMF/f8d180d2.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/Desmodiva/media/DMF/f8d180d2.jpg.html)

I remember that!  Those Rokons were really someting else!

One of my biggest concerns is the oil pump working properly.  I've got to find a way to prime it or something.  I think I'll take the spark plug out and and kick it over a few times and see if I get any oil.

JM

This is a pretty good forum.
http://www.suzuki2strokes.com/forum/ (http://www.suzuki2strokes.com/forum/)

On the old Yamahas we'd run the pump with the cable disconnected and a premix.

It eliminates the lack of lubrication on decel and also any guess work on the pump cable adjustment.

It does assume a working pump.

I've been contemplating doing that, but the only thing is if I want to run this around as a commuter, it would be better with a working pump so if absolutely necessary I could fill on pump gas.  That is really the only reason I even want the pump.

JM

Ive got the carb done, and everything fuel-wise back together.  Hit a snag though, my petcock is leaking, and the screws (you know, those really soft ones they use) have the heads stripped enough that I can't tighten for a proper seal.  Anyone know where to find tiny, metric fine threaded screws?  I've already been to the local hardware places with no luck.

JM

Fastenal?

you might either JB weld it or cut a slot for a flat head, I've have had both methods work

I'll look into them, we've got one close by. 

In other news, even after the leak issue, for shits and giggles, I kicked it over three times, and it ning, ninged to life! 

Progress.  Leak, then electrics.

JM

McMaster Carr, if Fastenal can't help.

I don't have a McMaster locally.  Fastenal was no help.  Local bike dealer was no help.  Probably didn't help that the bike was twice the age of the guy I showed what I needed...

JM

A kindly machinist?

yea have em made for ya, had to do that a couple of times as well

Not much industry here, I can't even find a machinist locally.  I can however get a complete petcock replacement off of eBay for $20.  I may just do that.

JM

What size screw do you need?

I've had good luck and fast service from http://mdmetric.com (http://mdmetric.com)

They encourage you to call and discuss what you are looking for and will even help with very small orders.

My local fastenal store is a waste of time. It seems to be is oriented to the commercial and building trades.

Edit: Speeddog posted while I was typing. Odds are he can help you faster.

If the Zook is anything like Honda it's most likely a 5x.08...dunno how long.

I don't know the size.  I appears to be a fine-thread M3.  It's about 3/4 inch long from cap to end.  I don't know how to measure properly (or have the things necessary) to determine thread pitch and all.

JM

I've got a decent assortment of M5 and M4 screws, even some M3.

Potential trap is sometimes they use oddball pitch on carb and petcock stuff.

Do you have a decent R/C model airplane/helicopter/car shop nearby?

They usually have a good selection of small metric fasteners.

Bicycle shop would be worth a try if you've got one.

From attempting to match it a Lowe's, it is smaller than an M4.  The little plastic gauge thing they sell matched it to an M3 as best I could tell.  Comparing to other things I have around, it is a very fine thread.  Something around a half-mm or so, maybe less.

No model anything around, but there is one bicycle shop in town.  I can certainly ask them, they're good to deal with.

I'll order on of these Chinese pieces (Suzuki re-introduced this bike to the Asian market in 1990) and see ho that works.  I would be nice to use the original parts though.

JM

Bike shop should be able to get you sorted, either from what they have, or they'll know someone.
You can't be the first one in town needing a small metric screw, likely they've been approached before.

I wager they'll send you to Wallace Barker's place, about a mile past where the sawmill used to be.

We've got someone like that here. He's hard to catch in the shop though.  He's got three rotaries (one RE5, but the other two are Norton or Guzzi or similar) and just about every interesting bike from the 70s.  His shop is three HUGE metal buildings, packed wall to wall with classic odds and ends. Last time I was in there, there was even a Lamborghini Countach.  He's even got a couple complete, running Water Buffalos. 

JM

Not bad looking for 36 years old.  Must work pretty good too, three kicks and it started.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/Carbs002-1024.jpg)

Couldn't find 6V light bulbs locally.  Found a box of 10 on eBay, that gives me a good bulb for each location and some spares.

JM

Just a quick update.  Kinda on hold for a day or two.  My bulbs arrived, hopefully they'll work just fine.  They do fit in the sockets correctly.  Still waiting on a petcock, I ordered a Chinese made one, so hopefully it will work.  That'll at least let do some test running and such.  Hopefully I can repair or replace with a Suzuki one  at some point.

JM

Can you take a pic of the petcock . . . I'm just wondering if this one is "special", that's all

edit:

I've seen this advertised as for TS185, http://www.partsnmore.com/parts/suzuki/ts185/?filters (http://www.partsnmore.com/parts/suzuki/ts185/?filters)[category]=carb

I will get a pic up.  It looks like a typical 70s era petcock to me. 

JM

was asking since most of the searches I've done bring me to either, universal ones or the ones in the link I copied

Looking on Ebay, I can get a Chinese copy for $15 or I can get an original for $80 or more.  I'll take the Chinese copy for the short term, but would like it to be close to original if I can get it that way.

Here's what I'm replacing.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/Tank001.jpg)

JM

gotcha . . then it is the one on the link I copied

It lives!!!  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K40cSWnThtw&list=WL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K40cSWnThtw&list=WL)

JM

 [thumbsup]

NICE

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
very

was that before spiting the baffle?

Yea, that was pre-baffle launch.  It's crazy loud without the baffle.  It's currently zip tied into place so I don't annoy the neighbors too badly.  I'll find a screw to fit it tomorrow.  It's only held in with one screw.  It looks like a torpedo.

JM

Awesome!!! ah man the sound of that 2 stroke engine gave me chills...memories of being 14 years old and absolutely fearless...

Congrats on the progress.  [thumbsup]

Now for lights and fork seals.  A few wheelies were too much for the 36 year old forks it seems  [laugh] 

At least they're super simple forks to deal with.  Might even look for some forks on eBay, these have some pitting that probably is rough on the seals.

JM

Fixed that for ya.  They are still going strong.  Don't own one but my first real job was welding the aluminum wheels together so I have a soft spot for Rokons.  The wheels are sealed and hollow with a plug so you can carry extra tequila in them.

 www.rokon.com (http://www.rokon.com)

Glad you got the Suzuki going!

Just in case anyone is curious, this is what the muffler core looks like.  The screw holding it in place had rusted to nothing and it spit it out.  It's WAY louder without the core.

(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn168/the_journeyman/GenMoto/20140803_193048.jpg)

JM

Looks like something a Messerschmidt would drop.

Stuka for sure. ;D.
Power loss without it?

The power changed, it no longer had the 'hit' in the power band and just kinda lugged around and didn't want to rev as quickly.  It's bolted back in place now.

I am amazed that despite it's age, it's a consistent "2-kick" bike when cold.  I never remember it starting that easily when I was a kid.  When it's cold, I flick the choke lever and 2nd kick it's alive and ready.

JM

Here's a question for those familiar with carbs and setup. 

The top end rebuild required a 1mm overbore.  Carb still has stock jets, is the 1mm overbore going to require going up a size since there is now a slightly larger piston?

JM

Simple answer...

No.

I remember my old dirt bike mechanic insisting on jetting my bike rich to keep it from getting to hot. 1mm seems like enough to warrant jetting the carbs? Sorry I can just hear his voice in my head, lol.

Nope, it won't. Can go from stock to +1mm on one of my race bikes and you run the same sized mains. On the other hand, you range from #180 to #200 depending on atmospheric conditions :). And yes, for something that will last a little bit longer than half a minute you want to run it rich but not so rich it's doughy and ugh. It's a finer line with 2 strokes, as they really zing as you lean them out... then you melt a piston and go back up a jet size  [laugh] [laugh]

^ This is the advice I keep hearing. People get into a pissing contest on how lean an oil/fuel ratio they can run with synthetic 2 stroke oil additive. A customer was running 50:1 with great power until.....
Better to change a plug than a piston/barrel. Keep a spare plug under the seat.

They run best right before they stick.  :P

For a small motor, best to be on the rich side, as it's a lot easier to run a small motor really hard.
Moreso if you've got long hills to climb on your roads.

I'd worry more about developing an air leak, given the vintage of the bike, and killing it that way.

Oh, and BTW, The Smithsonian called, they want those tires.
Spoon some new rubber on, you won't regret it!

Pretty sure this manual has the process for priming and setting the oil pump (although many years since I looked at one)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CLYMER-SUZUKI-TC125-TM125-TS125-TS185-SERVICE-MANUAL-TC-/270555909693 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CLYMER-SUZUKI-TC125-TM125-TS125-TS185-SERVICE-MANUAL-TC-/270555909693)

Have you looked at partzilla for parts
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Suzuki/Motorcycle/1978/TS185/FUEL+COCK/parts.html (http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Suzuki/Motorcycle/1978/TS185/FUEL+COCK/parts.html)

I have got bits and pieces from them for my 79 dt 250 that is a work in progress

Partzilla is fantastic, huge stock fast ship good service and the best prices. They had parts for my CB200 nobody else did including a lot of old and dead stock.

Yeah. Some people just seem to like melting holes in pistons.

Personally, if you're not modifying it and you're not after bulk power, keep the oil injection setup and just make sure a) the pump works (run it first on premix plus the oil pump connected) and b) you adjust the throttle cable side of things correctly. The Suzuki setups are probably the best of all of the Jap 2 strokes.

As best I can tell, the pump is working.  I ran an entire tank of pump gas, it smoked like a 2-stroke should and ran like a champ.  I do want to keep the injection setup if at all possible, that way if I use it as a commuter, I can simply run pump gas.  I did put a new plug in its tool bag under the seat.

I'm certainly not worried about making max power, I think in only makes 16HP or something like that.  I'd rather it be reliable over trying to get 18HP out of it!  [laugh]

As for the tires, believe it or not, those are the original tires from 1978.  Even the tubes are from 1978, I'm actually surprised they even hold air still!  I certainly plan on putting new ones on, but wanted to get the mechanical and electrical worked out before I dropped more money into it. 

JM

I read on a Suzuki forum that pre-mix won't play well with that motor because the big end of the rod isn't slotted to allow the mix to lube it.

Adjusting that cable isn't particularly difficult. The cam should have a mark you line up with a mark on the pump at idle.

I agree with Speeddog about air leaks being what would most likely be any possible issue.

That is a concern, but everything gasket-wise is pretty solid.  It's got a new head gasket and base gasket,  The only leak I'm worried about is the boot that connects the carb to the airbox.  It was hard on one side, but I can get one of those from eBay.

JM

There is also a rubber seal on each side of the crankshaft.

That is where I'd suspect a leak to cause an unexpected failure.

They are relatively easy to replace once you remove the flywheel and alternator, and the right side cover and primary gears.

I don't believe the primary gears require a puller, but the flywheel generally does.

I'll grab a service manual and check into those.  Age, not miles is the bigger concern for those.  36 year old bike, not even 6,000 miles.  That is definitely a recipe for rubber parts to go south fast.

JM

This, common failure causer in the snowmobile world....