Hey everyone, my name is Jason. I've been following this forum for a long time, but this is actually my first time posting.
I've got a problem and I was hoping I could find some answers here. I live in Tokyo, Japan, and ride a 2010 Monster 796 with a Termignoni full exhaust system (race ECU, pipes, cans, air filter). Main thing to note here is that the full system eliminates the infamous "flapper valve".
Anyway, I've done quite a few track days on my 796. About 3 months ago I was doing my track licence at Motegi circuit (awesome circuit BTW), and on the very last corner of the very last lap of the day, the timing belt for the upper cylinder snaps. I was still within the recommended mileage limit on the belts, but I guess all the track days put extra stress on them.
I get it back to my mechanic and he says that to repair the engine would cost more than the value of the bike, and he starts looking for a second-hand 796 engine. Three months have past and no success. Maybe they didn't sell very many 796 models in Japan. However, to my surprise, on the Yahoo Japan auction site I've found not one, but two Monster 1100 engines.
So, my question is this: Has anyone ever successfully put a 1100 engine into a 796 frame? I've heard that the 696, 796, and 1100 all share the same frame and wiring harness. I imagine that I'd have to either get an 1100 race ECU, or get my current 796 race ECU remapped (if that's even possible). I've searched the forums and found this thread related to the subject:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=50265.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=50265.0)
While that thread was helpful, it doesn't answer my question: Has anyone ever done it? And, if nobody has done it, is it possible?
It's been 3 months and I feel like I'm in a state of limbo: I can't find another engine of the same model, and my current engine isn't worth the money to fix it. I don't want to get rid of my bike as I've put a lot of after-market parts into it, and it has sentimental value to me. I'm at the end of my rope, I need something to happen, feel ballest without my bike. Any input or advice would be GREATLY, GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks very much,
Jason
Welcome to the DMF [thumbsup]
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?www;board=14 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?www;board=14)
Has it been done? I don't know.
Is it possible? Almost certainly [thumbsup]
Is it worth the bother?...... Now that's the question :-\
M1100 motor will bolt into M796 frame....... that's the easy part. You'll need M1100 ECU or a reflash is also possible (for DS1100 or not DS, if it's DS... there's added complication for you). Also, I'm pretty sure your M796 Termi full system headers won't fit..... so the exhaust will be another M1100 item you'll need to acquire.
Go ahead and be the first, I'm sure it is do-able [thumbsup]
But understand that it'll probably cost you more time and $$$ than you right now might imagine.
My bad, should have posted in the Introdution section first. Sorry about that.
Jason
No apologies necessary (I just have a bee in my bonnet about saying Konichiwa first ;)).
The 796 full termi midpipe fit on your syock headers? If so will fit on 1100 headers... Non evo of course
Yes, the full Termi midpipe fits on the stock 796 headers no problem.
Jason
The 1100 engines that I'm looking at are non-Evo.
So far, based on my research from other threads, it looks like the 1100 engine will bolt into the 796 frame no problem. The 796 full-termi midpipe that's on my bike now will fit no problem. The injectors should work no problem as they are the same part number on the 796 and the 1100. Many other things are the same part number based on this table that 2-Skinny made up (the table compares the 696 and the 1100, but I'm sure it also applies to the 796):
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5jIrbZCusH9ZTc0ZWVlNzEtZDNmYS00MDRiLWJmZjUtYmI0YTVkN2E2MWQ0&hl=en_US
I know about the difference between the 796 and 1100 ECU. I have the 796 race ECU on my bike. Maybe I can find someone selling an 1100 race ECU.
One sticking point is the ignition coil. The 696 and 796 share the same ignition coil (PN 380.1.015.1A), different from the 1100 (PN 380.4.010.1C). I'm not a mechanic, so how big is this problem? Is there a work-around such as using an aftermarket coil?
Jason
Quote from: Raux on September 15, 2015, 08:43:25 PM
The 796 full termi midpipe fit on your syock headers? If so will fit on 1100 headers... Non evo of course
Termi Full System midpipe is not gonna fit on
stock headers.
M796 Termi Full System (I actually didnt know there was a 796 Full System) midpipe might fit on M1100 Full System headers...... still gonna need M1100 Full System Headers though..... not sure they're falling from the trees (unlike stock headers which will be fairly easy to get hold of).
Quote from: Gaijinsamadesu on September 16, 2015, 12:50:06 AM
The 1100 engines that I'm looking at are non-Evo.
One sticking point is the ignition coil. The 696 and 796 share the same ignition coil (PN 380.1.015.1A), different from the 1100 (PN 380.4.010.1C). I'm not a mechanic, so how big is this problem? Is there a work-around such as using an aftermarket coil?
Jason, non-Evo M1100 engines are Dual Spark plug, hence the non-compatible coils and hence my earlier comment about "further complication".
But..... no reason why single spark M1100 Evo engine wouldnt fit [evil]
Can.
Worms.
Open.
;D
Ung.. If that full termi mid fits on stock 796 headers then it will fit stock 1100 headers... All the midpipes of 696 796 1100 fit interchangeably. Reason everyone scrambled for 696 mid. Ehich is probably what that termi midpipe is since it fit his 796 stock pipe
Ahh, I get it now. The non-evo M1100 engines have two sparkplugs per cylinder. My 796 only has one. That's really gonna put a fly in the ointment.
I wonder if the swap would work with an 1100evo engine. But then there's a chance that my 796 Termi midpipe may not fit.
Hmmm. Can of worms opened indeed.
Jason
Quote from: Raux on September 16, 2015, 05:08:00 AM
Ung.. If that full termi mid fits on stock 796 headers then it will fit stock 1100 headers... All the midpipes of 696 796 1100 fit interchangeably. Reason everyone scrambled for 696 mid. Ehich is probably what that termi midpipe is since it fit his 796 stock pipe
:)
Yeah, yeah.... I fitted a
stock M696 midpipe to my
stock M1100 headers, remember? Key word being 'stock' Jerry. Some confusion abounds regarding the idea of 'full system' me thinks.
Termi Full System does not use stock headers. Or else it would not be a full system. It'd just be stock headers, stock midpipe and Termi slip-ons.
Termi slip-ons with stock headers...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4034598518_a98f631394_b.jpg)
Termi Full System... with...um... full system headers...
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1270/4699050875_3fb3169118_b.jpg)
Quote from: Gaijinsamadesu on September 16, 2015, 05:31:35 AM
Ahh, I get it now. The non-evo M1100 engines have two sparkplugs per cylinder. My 796 only has one. That's really gonna put a fly in the ointment.
I wonder if the swap would work with an 1100evo engine. But then there's a chance that my 796 Termi midpipe may not fit.
Hmmm. Can of worms opened indeed.
Jason
Single spark 1100Evo engine will fit in your 796 frame.
M1100 Evo engine +
stock M1100 (non-Evo) headers + your stock M796 midpipe (there is no such thing as a Termi midpipe for M696/796/1100 stock headers) + your M796 Termi cans.
So there is an exhaust combo which could work.
But does M1100 Evo run Siemens ECU? I forget? M1100 (non-Evo) was available both with and without ABS, but IIRC M1100 Evo are all ABS.
Does your M796 have ABS Jason?
My bike is the ABS model and has the pipes like in the second picture.
If I'm not mistaken, you posted something about busting your timing belt on the 796 and doing a lot of track and eventually wanting a more track oriented bike. Is that correct?
If so, save the M1100 swap money and buy a 749 or 848 or something. 748/9s are in the $4k range here (NYC), which is pretty dang cheap for a solid track bike and that will be a big jump in performance from your 796 on the track. Not sure price/availability in Japan, though.
Anyway, that's my $0.02. However, I must say I'd enjoy watching someone convert a 796 to a franken-M1100, if only for the joy of sadism. ;D
Quote from: Gaijinsamadesu on September 16, 2015, 06:44:33 AM
My bike is the ABS model and has the pipes like in the second picture.
Soooooo exhaust-wise if you want to reuse your existing 796 Termi Full system..... You'd need to acquire M1100 Termi Full system headers.
You really have to want to embark on this.... um.... folly..... as a fun project in its own right. Coz rationally it's probably not worth the effort by the time you've nutted out all the pitfalls, known and unforeseen. But if you're keen to do this just because you CAN, then I'm sure you'll get all the help you need to succeed with it [thumbsup].
Just don't think it's gonna be easy or cost effective.
You can check the wiring doagrams or manula but like only difference on ignition system would be coils and plug wires. So just get them from an 1100. Exhaust port location could oe could not be the same as 1100 on evo motor. You would have to test fit that.
And now i see the exhaust diff... Ok i get it.
Raux's suggestion is the easiest way to get around M1100DS.... just use M1100DS coils etc.
Other considerations.... M1100DS motors come with dry clutch, M1100Evo with wet clutch (like your 796). And there's still the question as to whether Evo runs Siemens ECU? Coz if not, then you should forget Evo motors IMO.
On a non-evo engine, do both spark plugs on one cylinder fire at the same time, or do they take it in turns?
If my bike costs more to fix than it's worth, and I can't get any money for the parts, I might keep it as a hobby bike and try this project over time.
Also, is there any feedback to the ECU telling it that the coil is firing correctly?
Both plugs at once...hence dual-spark.
Is there a sensor telling the ECU that both spark plugs are firing? I'm wondering if there's a work-around regarding the single spark (796) swap to to dual spark (non-evo) issue.
Or, for example, if you had a non-evo M1100, unplugged the spark plugs on the timing belt side, would it throw up error signals?
My guess is that it would throw out an error signal. Is there a way to fool the sensor?
Quote from: Gaijinsamadesu on September 17, 2015, 10:43:27 AM
Is there a sensor telling the ECU that both spark plugs are firing? I'm wondering if there's a work-around regarding the single spark (796) swap to to dual spark (non-evo) issue.
No the coil fires both plugs at once from one signal you could use a single plug coil from the 796 and just leave one plug not connected it would run , but the main reason for having twin spark plugs is poor design and efficiency of the combustion chamber hence "Evo" motors have a better combustion chamber and piston shape to burn the fuel more efficiently with one spark plug. So yes it would run with one plug only firing but would be down on power and be worse for MPG.
Does anyone know if you can take off the top cylinder head on a 796 without having to take out the engine? My mechanic says the camshaft won't turn, but he hasn't actually taken the head off to see the extent of the damage because he would have to charge labor. If it's possible to take it off without having to take out the engine, I may just do it myself.
It was possible on older bikes. Not sure about the 796
Quote from: Yogi on September 17, 2015, 12:46:20 PM
No the coil fires both plugs at once from one signal you could use a single plug coil from the 796 and just leave one plug not connected it would run , but the main reason for having twin spark plugs is poor design and efficiency of the combustion chamber hence "Evo" motors have a better combustion chamber and piston shape to burn the fuel more efficiently with one spark plug. So yes it would run with one plug only firing but would be down on power and be worse for MPG.
^^ Not sure I agree with much of that.
If you're gonna do it, just use the correct coils for the motor you're gonna install.
Hmm, interesting. So the 1100 non-evo engine swap idea may not be dead. Just plug the spark plug hole one the timing belt side and put in a single spark ignition coil. Seems like I would need:
- M1100 non-evo engine
- M 1100 race ecu
- single spark ignition coil
- spark plug hole plug (or just a normal spark plug in the hole)
-
Quote from: ungeheuer on September 18, 2015, 03:15:55 AM
^^ Not sure I agree with much of that.
If you're gonna do it, just use the correct coils for the motor you're gonna install.
It's true that the DS design made up for the inefficiencies in the earlier design Monster heads. It's why you see many 900's dual plugged.
As far as running it with one plug, just do it right and swap out the coils.
Quote from: Gaijinsamadesu on September 18, 2015, 04:20:41 AM
Hmm, interesting. So the 1100 non-evo engine swap idea may not be dead. Just plug the spark plug hole one the timing belt side and put in a single spark ignition coil. Seems like I would need:
- M1100 non-evo engine
- M 1100 race ecu
- single dual spark ignition coils
- spark plug hole plug (or just a normal spark plug in the hole)two spark plugs per DS head
- M1100 Termi Full System exhaust headers
^^ Fixed :)
I have an 1100DS ECU available, but it would need to be reflashed for the full exhaust system I suspect.
i shoved an m1100 evo motor into the older ST style frames. worked just fine. so it was atleast backwards compatible.
Quote from: ungeheuer on September 18, 2015, 03:15:55 AM
^^ Not sure I agree with much of that.
If you're gonna do it, just use the correct coils for the motor you're gonna install.
Agree or not I',m a mechanic, auto electrician and engineer by trade.....not a hobby mechanic (Rolls Royce trained to name but one). What do you do?
If the design was so good why have they not continued with it?
M1100 Evo - According to Ducati project manager Giuseppe Caprara, “The additional power comes from the revised cylinder head,†which features revised inlet ports and an altered combustion chamber shape. Additional alterations include a five-percent increase in intake valve lift and four-percent increase in exhaust valve lift. The engine also runs reshaped pistons that bump compression from 10.7:1 to 11.3:1 and are spun by a crankshaft featuring a lighter, Ducati 848 EVO-inspired flywheel. And while the previous generation's Vacural crankcases, which significantly reduce overall weight, went untouched, changes were made to the cylinder heads' cooling system to provide better cooling performance.
Can't say in this case, but today dual spark is usually used to clean up tail pipe emissions. Yep, design a better combustion chamber and the dual spark becomes obsolete.
Quote from: Yogi on September 19, 2015, 04:41:07 AM
Agree or not
Thanks [thumbsup]. I didn't.
Still don't. Despite your oh-so awesome credentials.
Quote from: Yogi on September 19, 2015, 04:41:07 AMIf the design was so good why have they not continued with it?
Cost modification.
I have a set of EVO heads & can photo and measure if you want to determine if the exhaust port location changed any. I do know the intake port got larger. If you do use the DS engine, I do think staying with the 2 plugs and swaping the dual output coils would be the way to go. The combustion chamber was desiged around 2 flame fronts so eliminating 1 would not be good for power or fuel milage. If I remember from Hemans swap the main issue he ran into with the evo engine was swapping the layshaft gear so the crank sensor would read properly, after that he was able to get it to run on a flashed MM ECU.
Based on the engine comversions i have done i would recommend as option 1 to go for the M1100 EVO engine. It really is a good engine with good power. Even if it has a wet clutch ;-) Then reflash the ecu with a suitable map. Preferable with the exhaust valve and lambda sensors switched off. Option 2 would be the Monster 1100DS engine. Not the same power but it has a dry clutch. Just change the coils. And a suitable reflash of the ecu. When the engine is in the frame you can start worry about the headers. Either they fit or you make them fit ;-) . You really do not have any other alternative apart from M696 & M796 engines. For example a S2R 1000DS would require a special one off timing gear to be made in order to run on the Siemens Ecu..
BR
Henrik
Monster -96 with a M1100 DS engine
1000SS -03 with a M1100 EVO engine
Quote from: hnracing on September 19, 2015, 02:17:55 PM
Based on the engine comversions i have done i would recommve a dry clutchend as option 1 to go for the M1100 EVO engine. It really is a good engine with good power. Even if it has a wet clutch ;-) Then reflash the ecu with a suitable map. Preferable with the exhaust valve and lambda sensors switched off. Option 2 would be the Monster 1100DS engine. Not the same power but it has a dry clutch. Just change the coils. And a suitable reflash of the ecu. When the engine is in the frame you can start worry about the headers. Either they fit or you make them fit ;-) . You really do not have any other alternative apart from M696 & M796 engines. For example a S2R 1000DS would require a special one off timing gear to be made in order to run on the Siemens Ecu..
BR
Henrik
Monster -96 with a M1100 DS engine
1000SS -03 with a M1100 EVO engine
My irrational (dry clutch) preference defers to Henrik's perfect sense (although +/- 5hp stock is neither here nor there IMO) [thumbsup]
My personal Idea of a Monster is 2V aircooled dry clutch and loud 😀 and with the complete kit of TPO Beast R spagettisystem DP cam and Pistal HC Pistons the power is also there to beat the EVO 😀.
My HM1100Evo has a dry clutch. ;D
A thread should be started on the differences between the 1100Evo and 1100DS in detail. You can feel the very light flywheel, timing gears, primary gears, and light crank. Requires throttle control.
While the hotter cams give the Evo about 5 more peak hp, it is at the expense of less midrange torque from the dyno charts Ive seen; not that its lacking! The DS must be an absolute grunter!
Hm is a narrow case isnt it?
I'm thinking the best option is to go with the M1100DS with a M1100 race ecu, and change to a dual spark coil and run two spark plugs per cylinder. I won't need to change the injectors, and many other parts are the same.
Based on 2-Skinny's part number comparison between the M696 and the M1100 non-evo.
Quote from: Raux on September 20, 2015, 03:44:24 PM
Hm is a narrow case isnt it?
Not sure. I'd have to search for it. I'll start another thread.
Good luck.