hey guys
bike ( 1997 m400 ) was running nice and lovely...then one morning.... turned on the ignition , all lights on the panel lit up.... pressed the starter.... all lights on the panel went off...checked fuses..all ok...but then noticed a buzzing noise coming from the ignition solenoid ( the one that is connected to the positive battery feed )... did some extensive research and it seems alot of bikes suffer from this too.....
a guy i know who owns an aprillia said try to jump it with a car battery ( car engine not running ) which i did and hey presto, she fired right up!!
disconnected car battery, turned off the engine.... my buzzing solenoid was back!
i read howie`s excellent thread about this but i am at a loss... i have cleaned up the negative terminal ground, tried starter cables to ground the negative etc.. but no success... I wouldnt mind if it had a kick start like my other bikes but unfortantely it doesnt....
any suggestions, advice much appreciated
cheers
mike
Charge and load test battery. If battery fails load test replace. Then check charging system output. Charges between 13.5 and 14.5 volts [Dolph] If not, check back with us.
will do howie... fingers crossed....
thanks
mike
battery!!!!
gave it a slow charge....voltmeter reading was 12.09 volts
then tried my suzuki 250 battery ( reading over 13 volts )
fired up straight away with the suzuki battery!
just got to get a new battery...probably yuasa they are quite cheap here
big thanks for your help!
regards
mike
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........
so i got a new battery... lights on the dash, indicators ( winkers ), headlight , taillight etc work but.......... nothing from the starter motor...press the switch..... absolutely zero.... voltage of the battery is 12.9 volts... tried using my suzuki battery but nothing...dead as a dodo....
when i turn on the ignition key i can hear the ( yellow ) solenoid under the seat click.
and if i connect the positive battery lead to the starter motor itself the engine will crank ( but wont fire )
i have checked all the connectors and they seem fine....
after doing some research i think it could be one of the following ;
1. bad starter switch ( any advice about testing it? )
2. starter solenoid ( the one under the battery compartment )
3. a bad wire somewhere
help....help...help...help.... [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang]
Confirm that the small white plastic connector is securely plugged into the starter solenoid.
A bad switch could cause a failure on the solenoid. Happened to me about a year ago. It was barely making enough contact to pull the solenoid in. I replaced the switch and it was a little better but the damage had already been done to the solenoid. I ended up replacing the solenoid since it was a hit and miss affair. It got me stuck at work and had to jump contacts to get going. While I was at it I did the big 3 wire upgrade in 4ga wire and never had trouble after.
hey guys
checked the white connector...good and tight...
Motorpyscho... which switch are you taking about? the starter switch?
when the problem first appeared, I took apart the starter switch to clean it.. it worked when it was not on the handlebars... the dead response from the switch happened after i put it back on the bars ....
if i take off the inner u shaped cover and bridge the two connections ( making it ` on` so to speak ), would that be a way to see if it the switch? or is there another way of testing it? i have a multimeter ( but am still gettting to grips with it ).
regards
mike
When i was putting the starter switch back on the bars i accidentally overtightened the screws causing the button to remain stuck in the on position. There was no battery on the bike at the time. Could this have damaged the switch?
First, make sure your new battery is fully charged. If the battery you bought was previously activated a load test might be in order, or use that Suzuki battery. Diagnosis with a battery of unknown condition is like pissing up a rope. New does not mean good.The white connector has two terminals. One is ground and one is from the starter button. That one should have battery voltage when you press the starter button. If not, the problem is the ignition switch, starter button, main relay or related wiring. My first suspect would be your buzzing relay. Remove relay, place a jumper wire between terminal 30 and 87. Bike now starts, replace relay. Standard Bosch 5 prong will work.
hey howie
changed the main relay when i got the new battery.. i really think the problem lies with the starter button assembly or ignition solenoid ( which i really hope it isnt because i will have to take the battery box off to change it )
I will check out the ignition relay voltage as you suggested using my suzuki battery
big thanks
mike
Just for grins...
check the 7.5 amp ignition fuse. On my 96 the bike won't crank if that fuse is bad.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 18, 2015, 06:52:05 AM
Just for grins...
check the 7.5 amp ignition fuse. On my 96 the bike won't crank if that fuse is bad.
More than grins. No crank without that fuse and you could have enough backfeed to create just enough power to make that relay buzz.
hey ducpainter / howie
will deffo do that too!
tonight i am going to short the solenoid and see if the bike cranks..... fingers and toes crossed it is simply the switch assembly....
Also check your grounds, battery to frame and engine.
checked the voltage across the solenoid... 12.9 volts
however, i cant get to the solenoid to get a spanner across it to create a short
i got a spare switch from a friend so will try that and see if its the switch or the solenoid
taking off that airbox looks really troublesome!
howie... if i am getting voltage across the starter solenoid then does that mean it must be the starter switch ( or some point in the wire between the connector and the solenoid )?
I know its not the starter motor as it turns when i connect it to the battery postive cable.
also...if it is just the starter switch, shouldnt I be able to bump start the bike?
You need to show us exactly what you are doing. If the relay is buzzing, the circuit is not complete and the bike will neither crank or bump start. If you are getting a battery voltage from big connector to big connector and the solenoid is being energized (meter in parallel) your solenoid is bad. Go back through the replies and see if you get voltage at 85? at the relay key on, starter button pressed. If so, the ignition and starter switches are good. If you get battery voltage at the white connector, if I remember correctly, red/black wire with the key on, starter button pressed and the ground wire from that connector to ground is good your solenoid is being energized. Do keep in mind, new does not mean good. If you take the relay out, apply voltage to 85 and ground 86 with an ohmmeter connected between 30 and 87 you should read continuity.
You also want a manual with a wiring diagram. Here is one: http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/925 (http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/925) or http://www.haynes.com/products/sfID1/8/sfID2/9/sfID3/84 (http://www.haynes.com/products/sfID1/8/sfID2/9/sfID3/84) (I'm sure the printed one can be found cheaper elsewhere) This should be good for everything except your engine. You might also find an OEM service manual on line.
Another thing to consider is getting your bike to a good shop. Trying to fix it over the internet can take a long time time and mistakes can be expensive. It took me oh, probably about 30 years that sometimes paying someone else to do it is a good alternative.
I have a factory diagram...
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8588506343_e6df352758_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/e5WkHz)Monster wiring (https://flic.kr/p/e5WkHz) by nh_painter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/26408631@N02/), on Flickr
Key is the next image.
hey howie
no buzzing relay.... i changed the main relay and have 2 spare and none of them buzz with the new battery
meter in parallel is giving me a 12.9 volt reading across the terminals of the starter solenoid
do agree with yr advice... if it isnt the switch then it is going to the shop...and there lies the problem... the official Ducati shop in Osaka, Minoh are absolute twats... it took them 6 weeks to fix an ignition pick up last time.... and in japan, not many bike shops will touch ducati.... so i really really do need to find a competent one!
I may have missed it, but did you bridge the starter solenoid terminals to see if it activates the starter motor? Just because you get voltage there doesnt mean it operates correctly. You might hear a click, but it might not "click enough" if you get my drift. If you have tried this sorry mate.
You dont want to pull the airbox which is understandable.
You can apply Howie's wisdom if you are careful...
Take the battery out and sit it on a stool next to the bike. Run remote cables from the battery cables to the battery. Wrap the connecting nuts and bolts in insulation tape just to avoid shorts. Double and triple check before you commit. Dont mix up + and -. A customer recently did that jump starting his bike off a running 4x4 and blew his starter and regulator. Careful now... No shorts..
You now have power and can access the solenoid under the battery box. Remove the battery box rubber to improve access. Get a small wrench and wrap it in insulation tape except for the tips of the prongs at one end. Peel back the rubber boots on the solenoid and bridge the two main cables at the solenoid with the wrench prongs. Dont touch anything else or zappo. Bridging the solenoid at the nuts that secure the cables will start the bike if that solenoid is suspect. It doesnt rule out the switch but it at least implicates the solenoid. If your spare switch does not work then its the solenoid.
You have to be careful doing this or you will blow fuses (at least).
Replacing the solenoid is fiddly but not technically difficult.
If you dont trust the bike shops then call an auto electrician and tell them about the symptoms. Some even make house calls (for a price).
ok..bridged the solenoid as koko64 described... bike turned over ( but wouldnt start...hmm )
so it is definetely one of these
1. dodgy switch
2. dodgy solenoid
3. wiring trouble bewteen switch and solenoid
if it is number 2... do you have to remove the airbox? i have small hands ( like really small ) so would be possible to do without removing that monstrosity of an airbox?
getting there......slowly!
big thanks
mike
Or. if you have the room (I think you do) you could get one of these http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com/Remote-Control-Starter-Switch-P18756.aspx?utm_source=BingAds&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=KDT124&utm_campaign=bingPA from battery+ to positive small terminal on the solenoid. If you need a solenoid https://ca-cycleworks.com/products/electrical/21-2988
hey howie
thanks!
the starter solenoid is a yamaha, made in Japan. I live in Japan and jap bike parts are dirt cheap!!!
3 thumbs up!
mike
hey howie
just checked out a japanese bike parts site... zillions of relays... not all have detailed photos...some are rc18 , rc17 etc...what should i buy ( if i need to? )...price... $10 !
The CCW relay says RC-18 on the sticker.
Your hand might fit under there.
You will also need to modify the terminals on the relay. The connectors are the difference. Ca Cycleworks sells the terminal kit with the relay. $10? Go for it and modify!
On my starter solenoid the little plastic connector to the starter often comes loose. When you had said you heard a click it threw me off. Tonight when I went to start her my bike turned over then died. When I hit the starter again I just got the click. However I stuck my key in pressing the plastic connector to the solenoid and she started. Try pressing it with a long screwdriver while hitting starter. Might work.
hey tbyte
the click that i hear is coming from the main relay which is under the seat...
will try what you did ...fingers crossed
UPDATE------- ingition switch arrived.... connected it..... nothing.... so down to 2 possibilities
1. solenoid
2. wiring between switch and solenoid
my money is on number 1.... just ordered a yamaha solenoid for 12 bucks and will get the terminal kit from CA cycleworks......
to be continued....
Unfortunately I was mistaken in thinking it was a loose connector on mine. My above remedy no longer works on my bike. I pulled the connector off the solenoid and I get no continuity on circuit when starter depressed. Have you a multi-meter?
Are you getting power at the white connector when you hit the starter button?
If you are asking me I just checked the continuity setting (tone). But I will answer maybe because rather than getting zero w/tone or one (no circuit) it was reading 1.7 or something. But I will run the tests this afternoon.
edit: I guess I had lucked out when poking the relay got me home. I have power at white connector and when I jump the two connectors on relay she cranks.
Well actually both of you. You want to see battery voltage at the small + on the connector when the key is on and you hit the starter button. If so, ignition switch, relay and staerter button are all working as well as the relay.
hey howie
i have a multimeter and i really do need to check voltage at the white connector...
saturday night here in Japan now... wifey wants to watch some garbage on the TV so it`s bike night [Dolph]
hey howie
to test if there is power at the connector, how do i connect the meter?
cheers
mike
I'm not howie, but connect one lead of the meter to each wire in the white connector with the meter set on DC volts. The result should be within tenths of volts of battery voltage.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 24, 2015, 05:13:31 AM
I'm not howie, but connect one lead of the meter to each wire in the white connector with the meter set on DC volts. The result should be within tenths of volts of battery voltage.
That will work [thumbsup], plus you will be testing for a good ground at the same time.
hey ducp...sorry about that
that is what i did last night.... the 2 prongs of the meter inserted into the 2 holes of the white connector..... voltage reading of zero...
i know the switch is good ( replacement one from a friend who guarantees me it is fine ), new battery..fully charged... new main relay and I just got a yamaha ignition solenoid ( dirt cheap here ) and the engine cranks when i short the solenoid
but if there is no volatge when i turn the key and press the starter button then it must be a wiring problem between the connector behind the headlight and the white connector.... right?
beautiful fall weather and the bike is sitting in the garage...ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mike
Or...a kill switch problem.
Check the harness where it wraps around the steering head. It's a common area to find broken wires.
new ignition starter solenoid arrived today
will check out the wiring area as you said....
the saga continues.........
ok.... new solenoid arrived
quite easy to take out without taking the airbox off!
bit harder to get the new one`s rubber casing to sit on the prongs on the frame.....
anyway... managed to get it on, connected up, hooked up the battery, turned on the ignition key, hit the starter button and.................... nothing :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
so...as ducp and howie have suggested, it is a broken wire.
i was down at my local jap bike shop getting some help with a allen bolt that would not budge on my suzuki and i asked them if they would have a look at it.. they said yes so its going down there next monday.......if its purely a wiring problem they said it shouldnt be so difficult....
keep tuned for more information....
A very similar situation developed on my old K100 BMW, with around 140k on it, it turned out to be a wire at the steering head!
Quote from: SpikeC on October 26, 2015, 09:45:35 AM
A very similar situation developed on my old K100 BMW, with around 140k on it, it turned out to be a wire at the steering head!
By the steering head you say...imagine that. :o :o ;D
update and result;
got her back from the shop the other day ..... turned out to be bad wire in the main harness just below the starter switch connector!!!!
she has been off the road alot this year and now with winter due ( next week down to 10 degrees here ) i think it might me time to do what i have been wanting to do for a while..... ss900 engine swap, strip and repaint frame, k&n air flilters, repaint tank, short front mudguard, fork overhaul, new exhaust, paint wheels, smaller headlight, get rid of that ugly instrument panel and lower profile handlebars.... wish me luck!
If you've got the 20mm axle fork with the 40mm caliper mounts, the old school SS front fenders look pretty good on a monster.
will deffo check those out... probably cheaper to buy a 900 monster than swap the engine but as you know, you do get attached to a bike !