I am working on this project in LA, (Cali) where they are using deck screws to frame the house. It is regular 2x stick frame construction, but instead of using nails they are using 3" deck screws. The screws are being used for studs, rafters and joists. I have been a little concerned as to the safety of this because I have never seen it before. Never once did they mention this in Arch school, or on any of the framing crews I have worked on since I was 16. I tried to mention it to the forman/super/guy in charge, but he has never built a house before or worked on one for that matter! My potential boss could be this guy that I have to teach how to build a inside corner, how to frame in a window header instead of using flush hangers all the time, and numerous other things that even someone with a few months framing experiance has learned.
Not only does it take about 10 times longer (drilling pilot holes for each screw!!!), it just doesnt seem safe. I have had a bunch of screws already snap but he doesnt want to acknowledge the fact that he may have "screwed" ;D up the entire job. Someone please tell me I am wrong here. It would really suck to fail inspections and have to go back an nail every single stud, rafter and joist on the entire project!
Also, I was under the impression that it was acceptable to use 8d nails to attach 5/8 plywood sheathing on exterior walls. Is there a specific code in California that calls for 10d nails to be used? It is really annoying to have to use 10s to put on plywood. I told the dude that we usually use coolers (8d coated sinkers) but he has never even heard of them and just tells me to look at what the drawings say (He did the drawings!)
Any info advice or help?
Thanks
Screws? That's insane. What does the engineering say? I just looked at our shearwall schedule, and we are using .148" dia nails, I think 2-1/4"; I don't recall if those are 8d or 10d. What are you using to hang the joists, or are you setting them on the top plate? If you are using hangers, check the Simpson book and it will tell you what to use. Screws is a huge mistake. Go to the IRC, and see what it says.
I am in WA State, but I can't see a jurisdiction requiring screws; it's wood framing.
Quote from: Vindingo on July 17, 2008, 03:24:13 PM
I am working on this project in LA, (Cali) where they are using deck screws to frame the house. It is regular 2x stick frame construction, but instead of using nails they are using 3" deck screws. The screws are being used for studs, rafters and joists. I have been a little concerned as to the safety of this because I have never seen it before. Never once did they mention this in Arch school, or on any of the framing crews I have worked on since I was 16. I tried to mention it to the forman/super/guy in charge, but he has never built a house before or worked on one for that matter! My potential boss could be this guy that I have to teach how to build a inside corner, how to frame in a window header instead of using flush hangers all the time, and numerous other things that even someone with a few months framing experiance has learned.
Not only does it take about 10 times longer (drilling pilot holes for each screw!!!), it just doesnt seem safe. I have had a bunch of screws already snap but he doesnt want to acknowledge the fact that he may have "screwed" ;D up the entire job. Someone please tell me I am wrong here. It would really suck to fail inspections and have to go back an nail every single stud, rafter and joist on the entire project!
Also, I was under the impression that it was acceptable to use 8d nails to attach 5/8 plywood sheathing on exterior walls. Is there a specific code in California that calls for 10d nails to be used? It is really annoying to have to use 10s to put on plywood. I told the dude that we usually use coolers (8d coated sinkers) but he has never even heard of them and just tells me to look at what the drawings say (He did the drawings!)
Any info advice or help?
Thanks
Um . . . that just don't seem right. I can't think of one good reason to use screws. Do the plans you are working off of have all the necessary engineering approvals? I have a hard time believing an engineer would say okay to screws (unless there is a specified equivalent in the code that says "x number of screws spaced at y" may be substitued for nails."
You could send Grio a PM about this. She's AIA has a degree in construction and bunch of years as a Super.
I would call your inspector immediately before he comes out to find the shock of his life. His opinion is the only one that matters anyway.
On a related note, my boss is bidding a job to build a new home. For an architect. Who drew the plans himself. BY HAND!! :o Ugh.
sac
total misscommunication.... he was told to go screw himself
The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.
Joist are set on the top plate, toe "screwed" in, and hung in other places. They used nails in the hangers, so that doesnt worry me as much. For some reason they dont like using their hammers. They line up the nail gun to the holes in the hangers and shoot them in. It's pretty funny to watch.
I'm not familiar with the IRC, what is it? I did look up nailing schedules in the ICC and I couldn't find anything about the use of deck screws. They broke down every single type of nail and it's app. but nothing on screws, which leads me to belive that its common sense NOT to use them.
Quote from: Vindingo on July 17, 2008, 03:46:28 PM
The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.
Joist are set on the top plate, toe "screwed" in, and hung in other places. They used nails in the hangers, so that doesnt worry me as much. For some reason they dont like using their hammers. They line up the nail gun to the holes in the hangers and shoot them in. It's pretty funny to watch.
I'm not familiar with the IRC, what is it? I did look up nailing schedules in the ICC and I couldn't find anything about the use of deck screws. They broke down every single type of nail and it's app. but nothing on screws, which leads me to belive that its common sense NOT to use them.
[laugh]
Remind me to buy my framers beer tomorrow. Those guys are artists. And fast too.
sac
Quote from: SacDuc on July 17, 2008, 03:44:00 PM
I would call your inspector immediately before he comes out to find the shock of his life. His opinion is the only one that matters anyway.
There is a minor conflict... I dont necessarily have the job yet. If I go calling up the inspector this dude might get pissed. The moral dilema I am going through is that he is paying me WAY too much money, but I can't possibly learn from him.
Quote from: SacDuc on July 17, 2008, 03:44:00 PM
On a related note, my boss is bidding a job to build a new home. For an architect. Who drew the plans himself. BY HAND!! :o Ugh.
Those old timers are crazy, my mother was hand drawing all of her stuff up until about 4 years ago. Its hard for some to make the switch, but once you do it is IMPOSSIBLE to go back!
Wow, what a waste of time, I can't see that code would require screws. I know that there are a number of things that Cali code requires that are above and beyond due to quakes and such but screws and pilot holes seems very strange. I would call the City or County Building Inspector and just chat with them a bit about this. If the inspector comes out and sees that and it's against code, you're just going to start all over.
My dad used to be the county building inspector and has a ton of stories about people building houses that didnt' know what they were doing.
Like laying floor joists flat. The builder couldn't understand why you couldn't do that, maybe he wanted a trampoline for a living room [cheeky]
I have used screws for indoor framing during basement remodeling, when I didn't want to make a bunch of noise pounding, but yea, doing the whole house, that is a new one. Not sure what to think about it. In some ways, if the screws are good quality, I would think it could be stronger than nails?
mitt
Call the local building department posing as a homeowner. They will give you the answer specific to your area. Codes vary by City.
Quote from: mitt on July 17, 2008, 05:38:10 PM
I have used screws for indoor framing during basement remodeling, when I didn't want to make a bunch of noise pounding, but yea, doing the whole house, that is a new one. Not sure what to think about it. In some ways, if the screws are good quality, I would think it could be stronger than nails?
mitt
Not for shear strength. And that is primarily what nails are for. You would have to have one bad ass screw that would shear off or bend after a 16d nail, say.
Vindingo, as for you not having the job yet, have a contract in hand when you shoe up at the site tomorrow. If it doesn't get signed take a day at the beach. If you've started work already you are hanging yourself out there on way too many fronts, payment, liability, insurance?, bonding?, etc.
Quote from: Vindingo on July 17, 2008, 03:46:28 PM
The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.
I'm not familiar with the IRC, what is it? I did look up nailing schedules in the ICC and I couldn't find anything about the use of deck screws. They broke down every single type of nail and it's app. but nothing on screws, which leads me to belive that its common sense NOT to use them.
Hmmm...interesting. So, there was no framing pre-con, with the City or anything?
IRC is International Residential Code; it is the IBC (International Building Code) for houses.
California is "special." We like to use our own code: the CBC (California Building Code). It was based on the UBC for the longest time and we're making the jump to IBC nowadays. I still don't think it says a whole lot about whether or not you can use screws vs nails except in particular seismic cases where one is better.
For the most part someone pinned it earlier. Nails are more for shear strength while screws are more for withdrawal. Then you get those vicious looking nails with the barbs on them which are kinda a mix. Those things are awesome for putting holes in tires when you don't like someone. I know, I got one once. :( You take it to the shop and they keep your car for 20 minutes telling you that they can patch it right up and then they have to change their tune and tell you that you need a new tire cause the barbs rip the crap outa your tire.
Sorry, I get distracted easily. As long as the specs for the screw are the same as nails they shouldn't be breaking like you mentioned. If you REALLY wanted you could try to find out the shear strength of the deck screws vs nails but considering that they're meant for decking I wouldn't expect them to be as strong. This explains all the breaks your getting.
As for the 8d for 5/8" ply, yeah, that's most common but sometimes the engineer feels like using 10d since the 8ds are quite strong enough or they'd rather space the nails out farther and go with a bigger nail. I would really just do it as it's drawn. You can try to point out errors in the drawings or submit an RFI but doing it by the drawings helps put the liability on someone else. Just because your "boss" made the drawings doesn't mean that he wasn't copying off of someone's hand sketch. It could still be someone else's fault that knows just as little as him but is higher up in the food chain.
But what do I know, I just finished school and haven't started my job yet. ;D
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 18, 2008, 10:29:15 AM
But what do I know, I just finished school and haven't started my job yet. ;D
Did you make the mistake of becoming an architect? [laugh]
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 10:53:25 AM
Did you make the mistake of becoming an architect? [laugh]
Obviously not. This man clearly has some sense of how a building goes together.
sac
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 10:57:45 AM
Obviously not. This man clearly has some sense of how a building goes together.
sac
That was my thought, as well. Every architecture student should work two summers on a construction site...MINIMUM!!!
Some screws are OK
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/screws.asp
Deck screws, you mean the coated ones? What a pain in the ass. I love those things but I get pretty tired of stripped the crap out of them. Seems like an awful lot of work.
True, B.Rock, but those SDS screws are frickin' expensive!!!
Quote from: SacDuc on July 17, 2008, 05:48:02 PM
Not for shear strength. And that is primarily what nails are for. You would have to have one bad ass screw that would shear off or bend after a 16d nail, say.
+1 not enough shear strength in screws.
Quote from: VisceralReaction on July 17, 2008, 04:31:31 PM
Like laying floor joists flat. The builder couldn't understand why you couldn't do that, maybe he wanted a trampoline for a living room [cheeky]
The 'underscore-beam' just never caught on like they expected it to...
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 10:53:25 AM
Did you make the mistake of becoming an architect? [laugh]
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 10:57:45 AM
Obviously not. This man clearly has some sense of how a building goes together.
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 11:17:29 AM
That was my thought, as well. Every architecture student should work two summers on a construction site...MINIMUM!!!
Sorta. I majored in Architectural Engineering at Cal Poly SLO. We're supposed to be structural engineers with a better idea of how the architecture side works so that we can better integrate our structural systems into the architectural theme of the building. [roll] I am (will be) working for an architecture firm though. They bought out a small structural firm and are using them as the beginnings of an in-house structural division. Working together from the beginning to
hopefully produce a better finished product. [thumbsup] ;D
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 18, 2008, 02:41:40 PM
Sorta. I majored in Architectural Engineering at Cal Poly SLO. We're supposed to be structural engineers with a better idea of how the architecture side works so that we can better integrate our structural systems into the architectural theme of the building. [roll] I am (will be) working for an architecture firm though. They bought out a small structural firm and are using them as the beginnings of an in-house structural division. Working together from the beginning to hopefully produce a better finished product. [thumbsup] ;D
The easiest way to do this is for the engineer to actually LOOK at what the architect has drawn. Deck (PT, floor, etc) penetration drawings are your friend. [thumbsup]
Yup. It's amazing how much information they squeeze onto those drawings. And then it's funny how we add extra stuff like, "We are not responsible if you build the building exactly as we have drawn it and it doesn't work," or something to that extent. ;D
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 18, 2008, 02:41:40 PM
Sorta. I majored in Architectural Engineering at Cal Poly SLO. We're supposed to be structural engineers with a better idea of how the architecture side works so that we can better integrate our structural systems into the architectural theme of the building. [roll] I am (will be) working for an architecture firm though. They bought out a small structural firm and are using them as the beginnings of an in-house structural division. Working together from the beginning to hopefully produce a better finished product. [thumbsup] ;D
GOOD! Architectural firms have decided to take some responsiblity back! Now if we can just get them to do design work again. You know, something beyond just a floor plan and a window schedule. On second thought, I have a job doing exactly that for a Contractor since Architects don't do design work any more. So keep slacking architects, and don't worry, I'll make your building look pretty. [thumbsup]
sac
Quote from: Vindingo on July 17, 2008, 03:46:28 PM
The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.
For some reason they dont like using their hammers. They line up the nail gun to the holes in the hangers and shoot them in. It's pretty funny to watch.
It may be funny to watch, but make certain you're standing far away when they do it. I watched a guy do that, miss the hole, and have the nail bounce off the hanger and hit him in the belly. Perfed his intestine, they had to open him up at the hospital to fix the damage and remove the nail.
Also, I'm on the other coast, but here, we're required to use a specific hanger nail, and must use a hot dipped galvanized nail in PT framing, like the footings and bargeboards.
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 03:21:49 PM
So keep slacking architects, and don't worry, I'll make your building look pretty. [thumbsup]
sac
(responding architect + a few glass' of wine [wine] [wine] [wine])
sac and all you other architect bashers, go choke on some bacon.............. [bacon] ;)
A client wants to pay me to design, we'll design all day and then some! They want to only pay for a floor plan and a window schedule and that's what they'll get and then some. Actually I take that back, we've stopped providing service to clients that are looking for a cheap set of plans. Am I rambling? Those clients normally don't want to pay us and they are the ones who hire builders who use deck screws on the framing.
There are way to many posts in this topic for me to keep track [wine]
Are they really using deck screws? Or are they using some other type of screws? There are some screws that have the same if not better sheer capacity as nails. The screws usually cost 4x more than the nails. n ot to mention the time to secure them.
If they are using deck screws, don't let that go by. People will occupy this building, thier safety should be a major concern. I would have difficulty sleeping at night. Decks screws have the same sheer capacity as wood golf tee's. What will happen when a family moves in with all their furniture? What will happen when a minor storm blows through?
Deck screws are not designed to perform like nails.
[wine]
Doesn't Cali require contractors to be licensed? (which is a load of shit, contractors not a business name need to liable for all their work, like architects and engineers)
[wine]
Do you really want to work with a company that puts out work like this?
[wine] wine is good ;D
Quote from: red duke on July 18, 2008, 06:22:05 PM
sac and all you other architect bashers, go choke on some bacon.............. [bacon] ;)
I would personally like to thank the architects, civil engineers, and structural engineers who pour
so much of themselves into making targets for the mechanical engineers.
My house has a 24'x24' octagonal cedar deck on the back of it. The only place screws are used is to hold the decking planks (the ones you walk on) in place and hold the lighter railing-related stuff on. The rest is bolted together, either with carriage-type through bolts with nuts or lag screws. It is extremely sturdy.....
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 11:47:44 AM
True, B.Rock, but those SDS screws are frickin' expensive!!!
No argument there at all!
Vindingo...
If you know who the owner is, you could always place an anonymous call. Suggest to the owner that they may want to have an inspector make onsite visit ASAP, then act dumb as shit hits the fan.
Eventually, the project is going to have to pass inspection unless it is being built unpermitted...
and you could always place an anonymous call to the inspector yourself, for that matter.
You guys can bash all you like. I've seen it all. As an architect that works for/as a general contractor, I am more evil than evil - evil to all who look upon me. However, as I work my way through the industry, it is amazing how many people I run across just trying to fake their knowlege base. Like your boss, don't assume people know what they are doing just by virtue of their position.
Doctors scare me too... ;)
Quote from: red duke on July 18, 2008, 06:22:05 PM
A client wants to pay me to design, we'll design all day and then some! They want to only pay for a floor plan and a window schedule and that's what they'll get and then some.
We do recognize that this is the chief problem. What is frustrating is, we (you as architect & us as contractor) end up completing the design via RFI, ASI & change orders. In the end, the Owner pays a premium when they could have spent a little extra to have the design completely detailed AND get accurate bids.
We see a lot of architects turning back to us for advice/direction/etc when it's their responsibility to put out the details. There is a lot of liability surrounding this, and it's a tricky dance of helping out the "team" and protecting your company.
Quote from: Sinister on July 21, 2008, 08:28:54 AM
We do recognize that this is the chief problem. What is frustrating is, we (you as architect & us as contractor) end up completing the design via RFI, ASI & change orders. In the end, the Owner pays a premium when they could have spent a little extra to have the design completely detailed AND get accurate bids.
And this is why we no longer deal with clients who are looking to cut corners where they shouldn't. (I'll be singing a new tune when work drys up.) Not to mention our risk. The money the owner saves in the design is nothing compared to what they spend in extras and change orders.
Quote from: Sinister on July 21, 2008, 08:28:54 AM
We see a lot of architects turning back to us for advice/direction/etc when it's their responsibility to put out the details. There is a lot of liability surrounding this, and it's a tricky dance of helping out the "team" and protecting your company.
We're a team player and like to coordinate with the owner and the builder but in the end it's our responsibility. We create those details.
Quote from: red duke on July 21, 2008, 11:01:41 AM
We're a team player and like to coordinate with the owner and the builder but in the end it's our responsibility. We create those details.
That's the best way to be: a team. I make "suggestions" a lot, and say, "I saw this once, you might check it out" and scribble on a cocktail napkin. The architects/engineers who gain my esteem the most are those who are willing to listen and walk the site and see your headaches/problems hands-on.
Thanks for the insight everyone! RE: calling the owner- it's his brother in law! I think I will politely recommend he calls the engineer on the project to verify the use of his deck screws. I questioned the project arch. and he has way too much trust in his GC. In the same sentance he informed me that this was his and the gc's first remodel project, but they have watched plenty of them before. :o everyone starts somewhere right [roll]
I love the architect bashing. Contractors,
designers, CAD monkeys... it's all funny. I think someone mentioned bacon and choking... [laugh]
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 18, 2008, 02:41:40 PM
Working together from the beginning to hopefully produce a better finished product. [thumbsup] ;D
Is your company like ARUP? Engineers with creativity and imagination are a good thing, too many pocket protectors, calculators and bean counters are bad.
Quote from: red duke on July 18, 2008, 06:22:05 PM
Do you really want to work with a company that puts out work like this?
Quote from: red duke on July 21, 2008, 11:01:41 AM
And this is why we no longer deal with clients who are looking to cut corners where they shouldn't. (I'll be singing a new tune when work drys up.)
This is my dilema... work is drying up for me. I left a secure but seriously lame job in order to go after some cool projects. This new firm has some cool projects, its just the execution is a little off.
Quote from: Vindingo on July 21, 2008, 11:51:29 AM
Engineers with creativity and imagination are a good thing,
Creativity and imagination were exorcized from me, like demons, in engineering school.
Quote from: Sinister on July 21, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
Creativity and imagination were exorcized from me, like demons, in engineering school.
[laugh]
most architects could change that to "Creativity and imagination were exorcized from me, like demons, in professional practice."
This reminds me of a professor who used to tell us that he was jealous of his artist friend because "he can do whatever he wants"
Quote from: Vindingo on July 21, 2008, 11:51:29 AM
Is your company like ARUP? Engineers with creativity and imagination are a good thing, too many pocket protectors, calculators and bean counters are bad.
I guess you could say that. My soon-to-be boss worked at ARUP and my favorite teach from poly worked at ARUP for more than 10 years so I've got a lot of their ideologies around me. I hope to work for ARUP San Francisco when I eventually move north but that's a ways away.
Quote from: Grio on July 21, 2008, 07:52:35 AM
However, as I work my way through the industry, it is amazing how many people I run across just trying to fake their knowlege base. Like your boss, don't assume people know what they are doing just by virtue of their position.
Doctors scare me too... ;)
My GF complained about this recently. I often state things as though they are facts when in reality it's just my thoughts and opinions. Many of us are or will be in positions where we are expected to know the answer to every question and saying, "I don't know," doesn't go over well. People want answers right away but I should hope that even if you/I give a (wrong) answer because the client needs an answer you/I still go and look for the correct answer and fix our mistakes before it's too late. Sadly not everyone will.
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 21, 2008, 04:17:09 PM
My GF complained about this recently. I often state things as though they are facts when in reality it's just my thoughts and opinions. Many of us are or will be in positions where we are expected to know the answer to every question and saying, "I don't know," doesn't go over well. People want answers right away but I should hope that even if you/I give a (wrong) answer because the client needs an answer you/I still go and look for the correct answer and fix our mistakes before it's too late. Sadly not everyone will.
Hmm. As a CE I can tell you that for us doesn't work well at all. Someone - a PM or politico - will take it as the gospel truth. It happens ALL THE TIME. "I'll look into that" or "I'll check it to be sure" works a lot better.
I just want to say that my ribbing of architects is good natured and tongue in cheek. I actually do respect the profession and happen to have the good fortune of working a very good architect at the moment.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: SacDuc on July 21, 2008, 04:47:38 PM
I just want to say that my ribbing of architects is good natured and tongue in cheek. I actually do respect the profession and happen to have the good fortune of working a very good architect at the moment.
[thumbsup]
I understand. I get it all the time. And it is fun. When the builders aren't having fun with me is when I'm concerned.
Quote from: red duke on July 18, 2008, 06:22:05 PM
go choke on some bacon.............. [bacon] ;)
No bodies ever choked on bacon. I don't even think it's possible? ;D
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 21, 2008, 04:17:09 PM
Many of us are or will be in positions where we are expected to know the answer to every question and saying, "I don't know," doesn't go over well.
Of course, we all are. However, I have never once had a customer react badly when I say, "I do not know, but I will find out." I make sure I follow up, when I get the answer. Overall, people want honesty, I find. If they know you are being straight with them, they usually cut you some slack. I would rather have an architect tell me he doesn't know, instead of claiming his opinion/idea/thing he heard at the watercooler is fact/code/structurally sound. In the end, we all want to build good, sound buildings...Just don't get your ego wrapped up in it, and things will go fine.
The ones I can't stand are the ones who don't know when to sweat it and when to let things go, and when they get that turned around. [bang] [bang] [bang]
Quote from: SacDuc on July 21, 2008, 04:47:38 PM
I just want to say that my ribbing of architects is good natured and tongue in cheek. I actually do respect the profession and happen to have the good fortune of working a very good architect at the moment.
[thumbsup]
So you're saying you boss reads the DML and/or has a net nanny installed at work. ;D
UPDATE:
I got back from LA and was seriously debating wether or not I should take this job. I called the boss, talked for while and he told me he would call me in a week or so. That was a week and a half ago, no call.
Today I get a call from another guy at the office and I find out that the job has been shut down by the building inspector. He doesnt know exactly why, so I gave the boss a call. He didnt pick up, so I left a message. I guess this is why he hasn't called me back, but I want to know why the project got stopped!
Quote from: Vindingo on July 26, 2008, 01:58:52 PM
UPDATE:
[snip] . . . but I want to know why the project got stopped!
I bet it has something to do with deck screws. ;D
sac
I would assume that if errors as bad as the deck screws were made there were probably other errors that were bad enough to set the project back significantly as well and the owner had to stop the project to decide whether he/she had the money to continue and who he/she should be suing. Plus that deck screw thing was probably pretty bad and expensive to fix as well.