Question for Architects, Engineers and Contractors

[Vindingo]

I am working on this project in LA, (Cali) where they are using deck screws to frame the house.  It is regular 2x stick frame construction, but instead of using nails they are using 3" deck screws.  The screws are being used for studs, rafters and joists.  I have been a little concerned as to the safety of this because I have never seen it before.  Never once did they mention this in Arch school, or on any of the framing crews I have worked on since I was 16.  I tried to mention it to the forman/super/guy in charge, but he has never built a house before or worked on one for that matter!  My potential boss could be this guy that I have to teach how to build a inside corner, how to frame in a window header instead of using flush hangers all the time, and numerous other things that even someone with a few months framing experiance has learned. 

Not only does it take about 10 times longer (drilling pilot holes for each screw!!!), it just doesnt seem safe.  I have had a bunch of screws already snap but he doesnt want to acknowledge the fact that he may have "screwed"  up the entire job.  Someone please tell me I am wrong here.  It would really suck to fail inspections and have to go back an nail every single stud, rafter and joist on the entire project! 

Also, I was under the impression that it was acceptable to use 8d nails to attach 5/8 plywood sheathing on exterior walls.  Is there a specific code in California that calls for 10d nails to be used?  It is really annoying to have to use 10s to put on plywood.  I told the dude that we usually use coolers (8d coated sinkers) but he has never even heard of them and just tells me to look at what the drawings say  (He did the drawings!)   

Any info advice or help?   

Thanks 

[Sinister]

Screws?  That's insane.  What does the engineering say?  I just looked at our shearwall schedule, and we are using .148" dia nails, I think 2-1/4"; I don't recall if those are 8d or 10d.  What are you using to hang the joists, or are you setting them on the top plate?  If you are using hangers, check the Simpson book and it will tell you what to use.  Screws is a huge mistake.  Go to the IRC, and see what it says.

I am in WA State, but I can't see a jurisdiction requiring screws; it's wood framing.

[SacDuc]

I am working on this project in LA, (Cali) where they are using deck screws to frame the house.  It is regular 2x stick frame construction, but instead of using nails they are using 3" deck screws.  The screws are being used for studs, rafters and joists.  I have been a little concerned as to the safety of this because I have never seen it before.  Never once did they mention this in Arch school, or on any of the framing crews I have worked on since I was 16.  I tried to mention it to the forman/super/guy in charge, but he has never built a house before or worked on one for that matter!  My potential boss could be this guy that I have to teach how to build a inside corner, how to frame in a window header instead of using flush hangers all the time, and numerous other things that even someone with a few months framing experiance has learned. 

Not only does it take about 10 times longer (drilling pilot holes for each screw!!!), it just doesnt seem safe.  I have had a bunch of screws already snap but he doesnt want to acknowledge the fact that he may have "screwed"  up the entire job.  Someone please tell me I am wrong here.  It would really suck to fail inspections and have to go back an nail every single stud, rafter and joist on the entire project! 

Also, I was under the impression that it was acceptable to use 8d nails to attach 5/8 plywood sheathing on exterior walls.  Is there a specific code in California that calls for 10d nails to be used?  It is really annoying to have to use 10s to put on plywood.  I told the dude that we usually use coolers (8d coated sinkers) but he has never even heard of them and just tells me to look at what the drawings say  (He did the drawings!)   

Any info advice or help?   

Thanks 

Um . . . that just don't seem right. I can't think of one good reason to use screws. Do the plans you are working off of have all the necessary engineering approvals? I have a hard time believing an engineer would say okay to screws  (unless there is a specified equivalent in the code that says "x number of screws spaced at y" may be substitued for nails."

You could send Grio a PM about this. She's AIA has a degree in construction and bunch of years as a Super.

I would call your inspector immediately before he comes out to find the shock of his life. His opinion is the only one that matters anyway.

On a related note, my boss is bidding a job to build a new home. For an architect. Who drew the plans himself. BY HAND!!    Ugh.

sac

[Grampa]

total misscommunication.... he was told to go screw himself

[Vindingo]

The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.  

Joist are set on the top plate, toe "screwed" in, and hung in other places.  They used nails in the hangers, so that doesnt worry me as much.  For some reason they dont like using their hammers.  They line up the nail gun to the holes in the hangers and shoot them in.  It's pretty funny to watch.  

I'm not familiar with the IRC, what is it?   I did look up nailing schedules in the ICC and I couldn't find anything about the use of deck screws.  They broke down every single type of nail and it's app. but nothing on screws, which leads me to belive that its common sense NOT to use them.  

[SacDuc]

The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.  

Joist are set on the top plate, toe "screwed" in, and hung in other places.  They used nails in the hangers, so that doesnt worry me as much.  For some reason they dont like using their hammers.  They line up the nail gun to the holes in the hangers and shoot them in.  It's pretty funny to watch.   

I'm not familiar with the IRC, what is it?   I did look up nailing schedules in the ICC and I couldn't find anything about the use of deck screws.  They broke down every single type of nail and it's app. but nothing on screws, which leads me to belive that its common sense NOT to use them.  

Remind me to buy my framers beer tomorrow. Those guys are artists. And fast too.

sac

[Vindingo]

I would call your inspector immediately before he comes out to find the shock of his life. His opinion is the only one that matters anyway.

There is a minor conflict... I dont necessarily have the job yet.  If I go calling up the inspector this dude might get pissed.  The moral dilema I am going through is that he is paying me WAY too much money, but I can't possibly learn from him.  

On a related note, my boss is bidding a job to build a new home. For an architect. Who drew the plans himself. BY HAND!!    Ugh.

Those old timers are crazy, my mother was hand drawing all of her stuff up until about 4 years ago.  Its hard for some to make the switch, but once you do it is IMPOSSIBLE to go back!  

[VisceralReaction]

Wow, what a waste of time, I can't see that code would require screws. I know that there are a number of things that Cali code requires that are above and beyond due to quakes and such but screws and pilot holes seems very strange. I would call the City or County Building Inspector and just chat with them a bit about this. If the inspector comes out and sees that and it's against code, you're just going to start all over.
My dad used to be the county building inspector and has a ton of stories about people building houses that didnt' know what they were doing.
Like laying floor joists flat. The builder couldn't understand why you couldn't do that, maybe he wanted a trampoline for a living room

[mitt]

I have used screws for indoor framing during basement remodeling, when I didn't want to make a bunch of noise pounding, but yea, doing the whole house, that is a new one.  Not sure what to think about it.  In some ways, if the screws are good quality, I would think it could be stronger than nails?

mitt

[hbliam]

Call the local building department posing as a homeowner. They will give you the answer specific to your area. Codes vary by City.

[SacDuc]

I have used screws for indoor framing during basement remodeling, when I didn't want to make a bunch of noise pounding, but yea, doing the whole house, that is a new one.  Not sure what to think about it.  In some ways, if the screws are good quality, I would think it could be stronger than nails?

mitt

Not for shear strength. And that is primarily what nails are for. You would have to have one bad ass screw that would shear off or bend after a 16d nail, say.

Vindingo, as for you not having the job yet, have a contract in hand when you shoe up at the site tomorrow. If it doesn't get signed take a day at the beach. If you've started work already you are hanging yourself out there on way too many fronts, payment, liability, insurance?, bonding?, etc.

[Sinister]

The engineering doesnt specify a nailing schedule, the architect's plans do, but this guy drew them up.  

I'm not familiar with the IRC, what is it?   I did look up nailing schedules in the ICC and I couldn't find anything about the use of deck screws.  They broke down every single type of nail and it's app. but nothing on screws, which leads me to belive that its common sense NOT to use them.  

Hmmm...interesting.  So, there was no framing pre-con, with the City or anything?

IRC is International Residential Code; it is the IBC (International Building Code) for houses.

[erkishhorde]

California is "special." We like to use our own code: the CBC (California Building Code). It was based on the UBC for the longest time and we're making the jump to IBC nowadays. I still don't think it says a whole lot about whether or not you can use screws vs nails except in particular seismic cases where one is better.

For the most part someone pinned it earlier. Nails are more for shear strength while screws are more for withdrawal. Then you get those vicious looking nails with the barbs on them which are kinda a mix. Those things are awesome for putting holes in tires when you don't like someone. I know, I got one once.  You take it to the shop and they keep your car for 20 minutes telling you that they can patch it right up and then they have to change their tune and tell you that you need a new tire cause the barbs rip the crap outa your tire.

Sorry, I get distracted easily. As long as the specs for the screw are the same as nails they shouldn't be breaking like you mentioned. If you REALLY wanted you could try to find out the shear strength of the deck screws vs nails but considering that they're meant for decking I wouldn't expect them to be as strong. This explains all the breaks your getting.

As for the 8d for 5/8" ply, yeah, that's most common but sometimes the engineer feels like using 10d since the 8ds are quite strong enough or they'd rather space the nails out farther and go with a bigger nail. I would really just do it as it's drawn. You can try to point out errors in the drawings or submit an RFI but doing it by the drawings helps put the liability on someone else. Just because your "boss" made the drawings doesn't mean that he wasn't copying off of someone's hand sketch. It could still be someone else's fault that knows just as little as him but is higher up in the food chain.

But what do I know, I just finished school and haven't started my job yet. 

[Sinister]

But what do I know, I just finished school and haven't started my job yet. 

Did you make the mistake of becoming an architect?

[SacDuc]

Did you make the mistake of becoming an architect?

Obviously not. This man clearly has some sense of how a building goes together.

sac