Purchased two K153 K&N oil filters today.
New manufacturer, different construction.
For a good while, the KN153's were made in China.
These new ones are made in Thailand.
Product and packaging looked legit.
Fitment on threaded area was no good whatsoever.
I'm taking this up in person with K&N tomorrow 04/28.
Thanks for the heads up.... I have a K&N on now that worked well (threading up) but I'd like to know where I need to go after this.
Keep us updated! [thumbsup]
Thanks mate. I'll go oem until it's resolved.
The new ones suck. Hiflo now comes with the 17mm. nut set up for safety wire.
http://www.hiflofiltro.com/rc/ (http://www.hiflofiltro.com/rc/)
Incorrect oil filter on the left, correct filter on the right.
Visual differences of incorrect filter:
Marked "Made in Thailand".
Slightly taller, and closed end a bit flatter.
8 input holes, with a red anti-drainback valve.
Gasket a bit narrower with rounded corners.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1569/26096176604_97eb2bb9d6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FL2J8o)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1471/26096176884_f080874477_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FL2Jdd)
KEY INCORRECT FEATURE
Threaded center hole is 7.2mm from gasket surface, as opposed to 3.2mm.
Fairly obvious difference as shown in the pic below.
Result is only about 1/2 turn of thread engagement prior to the gasket contacting the case.
Adding the K&N spec of 3/4 to 1 turn beyond gasket contact, results in a max of 1 1/2 turns total of thread engagement.
Not enough.
Previous good filter gets 2 1/2 turns prior to the thread contacting the case.
Then the spec of 3/4 to 1 turn, so max of 3 1/2 turns thread engagement.
End result is *all* threads on the filter are engaged with the threads on the fitting.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1524/26096176704_baa322d9aa_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FL2Ja7)
Samples of both have been handed to the K&N Customer Service Manager, and the issue described to him in detail.
Along with the fact that these filters are used on nearly every Ducati on the road today, from the Pantah in 1980 up to present day, only excluding the Panigale.
He said he'd follow up with me.
I still swear by the Amsoil filters , no leaks perfect fit
Good work. [thumbsup]
Imagine a filter falling off at speed.
What a disaster for K&N's reputation. Who was the dumbass bean counter that organized that deal?
Nice write up.
Off topic slightly, why does the Panigale use a different filter? Just curious...
Quote from: NAKID on April 28, 2016, 04:43:14 PM
Nice write up.
Off topic slightly, why does the Panigale use a different filter? Just curious...
it is a cartridge style . . .
Quote from: DarkMonster620 on April 28, 2016, 04:49:54 PM
it is a cartridge style . . .
Might as well use turn of the 19th century engineering... [roll]
I've fitted ~150 K&N oil filters with zero issues.
I suspect that the filters got incorrectly labeled as KN153's, then boxed as such.
Nothing looks dodgy about the bottom plate, not F'd up, warped, doesn't look like the manufacturing of the parts was defective.
It looks like the result of a paperwork problem.
Quote from: DarkMonster620 on April 28, 2016, 04:49:54 PM
it is a cartridge style . . .
Ahhhh, my Durango is the same. Supposed to be less waste. Interestingly though, the filters aren't any cheaper... :-\
Quote from: NAKID on April 28, 2016, 05:10:28 PM
Ahhhh, my Durango is the same. Supposed to be less waste. Interestingly though, the filters aren't any cheaper... :-\
Being environmentally conscious doesn't mean it's economically sensible.
Quote from: Charlie98 on April 28, 2016, 06:44:29 PM
Being environmentally conscious doesn't mean it's economically sensible.
But it should be cheaper. It's just the filter element and no housing. The savings on the metal alone should make it cheaper...
Quote from: NAKID on April 28, 2016, 07:05:43 PM
But it should be cheaper. It's just the filter element and no housing. The savings on the metal alone should make it cheaper...
It is cheaper...
for them to make.
Who the make the beast with two backs are you to believe you should therefore pay less? ;D ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on April 28, 2016, 07:17:27 PM
It is cheaper...
for them to make.
Who the make the beast with two backs are you to believe you should therefore pay less? ;D ;D
[laugh]
Quote from: ute on April 28, 2016, 04:41:38 PM
I still swear by the Amsoil filters , no leaks perfect fit
I've been using them too, ever since I read about them in George's oil thread sticky.
un-good K&Ns shitty knock-offs perhaps?
Thats what I was thinking.
Thanks for the heads up.
Weird . . . still have some HF from last bulk purchase . . customer brouhgt in a KN and leaked . . . but, it fitted normally
Quote from: ungeheuer on May 08, 2016, 07:07:42 AM
un-good K&Ns shitty knock-offs perhaps?
That's what I was thinking.
K&N guy did update mid week that they're looking at the issue, but no more info than that.
It's interesting...
My reference is in my industry... swimming pool equipment and building. What I've noticed, as the major pool equipment suppliers switch manufacturing sources to 'less expensive' methods (read: China) the longevity of parts, including not only simple pieces, but major components like pump motors or complete pumps, has declined. Not only are they not being assembled well, they are using parts and materials out of their control. Part of it is they are sometimes just being cheap... one manufacturer in particular seems to use the consumer as their testbed... issuing warranty recalls and retrofit parts (sometimes whole assemblies) after they have failed in the field.
It's quite possible K&N actually sourced these from Thailand and proper quality control hasn't been established yet in the new factory... in a rush to get product out the door. Of course, it's also possible they are counterfeit... I figure it's a 50/50 chance either way.
AFAIK K7N oil filters were from the same source as HiFlo, Thai Yang Kitpaisan Co., Ltd. Allegedly, this is the reason HiFlo did not have the 17mm. hex with the hole for safety wire. Now that K&N is using a different source HiFlo now has the hex and hole for safety wire. Could be wrong on this. K&N number is KN 153, HiFlo is HF 153 except you need to add the R if you want the hex. Anyway, the HiFlo is TUV approved and usually slightly cheaper.
Latest update from K&N Customer Service Manager was uninspiring, no substantive feedback yet.
I again emphasized the severity of this issue, and while the CSM was friendly and communicative, his response was much the same as when talking to HR at a big company.
Fortunately, they're shipping me good (allegedly) replacements for the defective units I bought.
So there's that. :-\
Quote from: Speeddog on May 11, 2016, 12:25:21 PM
Latest update from K&N Customer Service Manager was uninspiring, no substantive feedback yet.
I again emphasized the severity of this issue, and while the CSM was friendly and communicative, his response was much the same as when talking to HR at a big company.
Fortunately, they're shipping me good (allegedly) replacements for the defective units I bought.
So there's that. :-\
And that's great for you, but what about the others who have the defective filters?
I'm not saying you bear any responsibility to getting this resolved, but I just wonder what's going to happen now. I'm sure in their minds, they have "appeased" this one complaint and will do nothing else to resolve it.
Is it time to break out our lawyers on them? Ducatiz? Statler?
Don't think for even a heartbeat that I'm letting this drop.
buy hi-flow..,. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on May 11, 2016, 05:57:51 PM
buy hi-flow..,. ;D
That's just crazy talk! Then what would we have to pregnant dog about?
I ordered 3 x Ryco RMZ106 filters from my local auto parts store today from their new moto specific line. [thumbsup]
Quote from: Speeddog on May 11, 2016, 12:51:20 PM
Don't think for even a heartbeat that I'm letting this drop.
The real question is weather they are just shipping you correct (Chinese) filters, or they have actually fixed the process (Taiwan.)
They can make the beast with two backsing filter any beast with two backs where they want, but they need to be serviceable.
Quote from: Charlie98 on May 11, 2016, 09:12:17 PM
The real question is weather they are just shipping you correct (Chinese) filters, or they have actually fixed the process (Taiwan.)
They can make the beast with two backsing filter any beast with two backs where they want, but they need to be serviceable.
They specified that the replacements they're sending me are the Made in China units.
He did not say that they had fixed the problem at the source in Thailand.
Watching with interest...
Quote from: koko64 on May 11, 2016, 07:00:50 PMI ordered 3 x Ryco RMZ106 filters from my local auto parts store today from their new moto specific line. [thumbsup]
Can get them cheap too at $15. The lack of hex nut is not cool though.
I'll check my last remaining 153 using the pics posted above. Cheers Speeddog!
Checked my two remaining. They look to be the good ones. One says 'Made in China' the other, although visually the same, hasn't got the country of manufacture listed anywhere.
It has the 8 holes and no red anti-drain valve.
As long as it DOESN'T say Made in Thailand I reckon I'm okay. ðŸ'ðŸ»ðŸ'ðŸ»
Whew! My last one is made in China too. Never thought I'd say that. The Ryco are made in Thailand.
Taking a closer look at the Ryco filters, they have the extra holes and the plate is not as convex as the good K&N. They do appear to be generally better quality than the bad K&N and do have more thread depth. I will have to try one and see how many turns I get after the seal contacts.
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h288/GK1970/C305B5F2-86F4-4D90-938A-8FCF0DF0432B_zpsxmlqimbt.jpg) (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/GK1970/media/C305B5F2-86F4-4D90-938A-8FCF0DF0432B_zpsxmlqimbt.jpg.html)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h288/GK1970/3B873EB7-02AD-4FB6-A1D3-99222E7EC98A_zps09zbqzzt.jpg) (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/GK1970/media/3B873EB7-02AD-4FB6-A1D3-99222E7EC98A_zps09zbqzzt.jpg.html)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h288/GK1970/C1AEDCB9-7E40-432F-A6AE-8833FDB36494_zpsidl7tf2k.jpg) (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/GK1970/media/C1AEDCB9-7E40-432F-A6AE-8833FDB36494_zpsidl7tf2k.jpg.html)
Interesting!
One (China made) has the silver band, the other doesn't!
There's obvious marking/instructions differences PLUS I noticed that the inside of the filter is different!
The oil holes/channels look to be different, as is the colour of the paper filtration.
I may have a non made in Thailand non genuine copy! Lol!
So I had another look. Although on the filter that I'm suspecting is dodgy it doesn't indicate the country of manufacture, I scanned the box again and there, right down the bottom, in small print, it reads... Thailand!
the branding says K&N Performance vs K&N Powersports ???
Minor update.
Received the replacement filters as promised, and they were the good version.
I'll check to see if the branding on the 'good' and 'bad' filters are different on the ones I've got.
This is the crucial difference, bad filter on the left:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1524/26096176704_baa322d9aa_c.jpg)
Quote from: DarkMonster620 on May 15, 2016, 05:31:55 AM
the branding says K&N Performance vs K&N Powersports ???
Something else... the Thai 'K&N' doesn't have the circle-R registered logo after the brand, and the typeset is different. High-end brands take great pains to maintain their logo is displayed properly... I'm thinking more and more these are knockoffs.
K&N have had two weeks to say "Counterfeit!", and haven't even mentioned anything even remotely hinting at that.
That leaves the only option that the Thailand units are genuine.
The Thailand filter I have has the same style "K&N Performance" logo, with the ® as well.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/tonykokonis/1024x768_bestfit%204_zpsahguwig7.jpg)
Ryco filter. A good quality Aussie company. We will see if this filter has similar issues.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/tonykokonis/1024x768_bestfit%205_zpslmytaafh.jpg)
We will see if the filter grabs enough thread. The quality is usually very good, but the plate is not as convex as the good K&N filter. It is made in Thailand too. Ryco get them made everywhere like many companies. The contact plate appears more convex than the almost flat plated bad K&N filter, so it is somewhere in between..
Checked the filter on the Monster tonight. It's made in China. ðŸ'ðŸ»ðŸ'ðŸ»
Thailand 'Powersports' filter (good pickup Carlos!) is quite different inside to the genuine made in China K&N.
Pick 1 - knock off!
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h288/GK1970/55DAD3D0-56FC-4701-871D-5835F9B7ABEF_zpsqj8wcysp.jpg) (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/GK1970/media/55DAD3D0-56FC-4701-871D-5835F9B7ABEF_zpsqj8wcysp.jpg.html)
Pick 2 - Genuine!
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h288/GK1970/CC987DE9-3C06-494C-8777-F102CBAF4C14_zpsops7vmdi.jpg) (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/GK1970/media/CC987DE9-3C06-494C-8777-F102CBAF4C14_zpsops7vmdi.jpg.html)
Quote from: koko64 on May 15, 2016, 06:22:43 PM
Ryco filter. A good quality Aussie company. We will see if this filter has similar issues.
Do you know who makes them?
Quote from: GK on May 16, 2016, 03:25:01 AM
Checked the filter on the Monster tonight. It's made in China. ðŸ'ðŸ»ðŸ'ðŸ»
The irony.
Quote from: ducatiz on May 16, 2016, 08:08:35 AM
Do you know who makes them?
Actually made in Thailand. But they get made all over the place including China and here afaik. I posted the pic wondering if its from the same Thai factory legitimately making filters for K&N. If I got this right there are genuine Thai K&N, knock off crappy Thai "K&N" and genuine Chinese K&N? Its strange as the finish quality is typical Ryco which is very good and construction more like K&N at their best.
Or is it the Thai made filters are legit and they just make the beast with two backsed up?
Quote from: koko64 on May 16, 2016, 01:44:31 PM
Or is it the Thai made filters are legit and they just make the beast with two backsed up?
I think the Thai K&N filters that I have here are legit.
Ah, I hope its not the same mob who make the Ryco . The quality is different though. If the local brand doesnt work out I'll go to the Hi Flo R or oem.
So a K&N bean counter make the beast with two backsed up looking for a cheaper supplier? [bang]
Quote from: GK on May 16, 2016, 03:37:45 AM
<snip>... genuine made in China K&N.
Sounds like some sort of oxymoron to me.
Quote from: Langanobob on May 17, 2016, 07:36:14 AM
Sounds like some sort of oxymoron to me.
It certainly is disappointing.... [thumbsdown]
Years ago, when I was young, we used to think that about stuff "Made in Japan". ;)
Quote from: koko64 on May 18, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
Years ago, when I was young, we used to think that about stuff "Made in Japan". ;)
well . . . that was some time ago . . . I'd say
Quite awhile ago Sonny. ;)
I remember Deep Purple's album "Made in Japan" that caught that sentiment.
I'm barely five years older than you. ;0
Quote from: koko64 on May 18, 2016, 05:05:35 PM
Quite awhile ago Sonny. ;)
I remember Deep Purple's album "Made in Japan" that caught that sentiment.
I'm barely five years older than you. ;0
you mean this masterpiece?
(https://jasonpkrug.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/deep_purple-made_in_japan-2-booklet.jpg)
I was 4 when it came out . . .
[thumbsup]
Quote from: DarkMonster620 on May 18, 2016, 05:48:08 PM
you mean this masterpiece?
(https://jasonpkrug.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/deep_purple-made_in_japan-2-booklet.jpg)
I was 4 when it came out . . .
kids [roll]
;D
Oh geeze, I was a couple years outa the army by then.......
I called K&N again, Mr. Customer Service Manager has still not heard anything back from the R&D department.
He said I'm the only person who has contacted them about this issue.
He did say he'd contact me when he got an answer.
It would be helpful if the other forum sponsors were able to weigh in and contact the distributor. This situation does no one any good, not customers, retailers, distributors or K&N. If I come across these sub par filters here I will contact the Aussie distributor. In fact I will email them anyway.
It will only take one filter to fall off to kill a rider or motor..
Comparison of good K&N, local Ryco and Ducati filters. I tried the ryco and noticed that although the plate face was not as convex as the other two it had more threads and was able to torque it up past the 2/3 turn after gasket contact which I find is often a little loose. It had room to go and engage the extra thread or two as the gasket was not too far from the face plate. Also, I note the gasket is softer. Not bad. I think the bad K&N has a flat face plate and less threads than all of these examples. Is that correct?
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/tonykokonis/1024x768_bestfit%2017_zpsqrf3srl9.jpg)
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/tonykokonis/1024x768_bestfit%2021_zpshqyqkgk8.jpg)
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/tonykokonis/20160520_190604_zpslyzhnvkf.jpg)
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/tonykokonis/20160520_190612_zps1rgnqdnt.jpg)
Got the first substantive update from K&N.
All of the Thailand filters have been pulled from the warehouse and quarantined.
Their remaining stock of the 'good' Chinese manufactured filters have been inspected.
If anyone has a 'bad' Thailand manufactured filter, contact K&N so that they will send you a replacement.
[clap] [bow_down]
Great work.
Quote from: Speeddog on May 20, 2016, 11:06:45 AM
Got the first substantive update from K&N.
All of the Thailand filters have been pulled from the warehouse and quarantined.
Their remaining stock of the 'good' Chinese manufactured filters have been inspected.
If anyone has a 'bad' Thailand manufactured filter, contact K&N so that they will send you a replacement.
Excellent! Thank you for taking point on that.
I find it odd... you said Mr CS said you were the only one who has drawn up this issue... and now they are pulling the product. Hmmmm.... [roll]
Great job Speeddog [thumbsup] [clap] [beer]
Excellent!!!!
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=171643768261 (http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=171643768261)
Same as a dodgy one that I have. K&N Powersports.
Quote from: Speeddog on May 20, 2016, 11:06:45 AM
Got the first substantive update from K&N.
All of the Thailand filters have been pulled from the warehouse and quarantined.
Their remaining stock of the 'good' Chinese manufactured filters have been inspected.
If anyone has a 'bad' Thailand manufactured filter, contact K&N so that they will send you a replacement.
Good news, thanks!!! I've used K&N filters for years, but last week I ordered two oem Ducati filters because of nervousness engendered by this thread. Thank you for taking the time and having the tenacity to chase it down to the ground and to get actual action from K&N!!!!
Just fitted a K&N oil filter to a 1250 Bandit. Made in Korea. First one I've seen not made in China or Thailand. New supplier because of the issues?
Just fitted a K&N oil filter to an MTS1100. It was made in Thailand and I was ready to reject it, but upon inspection I saw that the filter base was back to bringconvex again and not flst and too recessed. It had plenty of thread and its overall appearance, finsh and quality matched that of the previous good filters (and oem by the way).
Must have sorted the quality control or its another Thai factory
A year and a half after the first bad ones I saw, I'm still seeing the bad ones in the local moto shops.
They must have made quite a lot of them.
I bet the giant US market has a stack of 'em in circulation. I still check each one before I buy it and don't buy them unseen.