Ducati Monster Forum

..... for my Monster 800?

http://www.ducati-kaemna.com/news/Scrambler-BB-en/

Well, of course, but isn´t it tempting, along with the ST2 cams I have lying around doing no good at all.. [drool]

I feel your pain.

Do it!

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/S2R800-dialarstuning1.jpg)

Well, Lars,
pretty obviously that was quite a bit of money, but not wasted ..... ;D

Not from 800 cc, I suppose? Ignoring the numbers for a moment, the improvement is quite impressive. And a nice ride, I assume?   

Define wasting  [cheeky]

It's an ~840 including balancing, rods, port & polish, PCIII a.s.o.

The numbers are mathemagically manipulated to copy how Ducati measures, I think.

Waste .....Asking me or my wife .... ?

Do it! You're not wasting my $$$.  :)

Haha :-)  Probably not mine either. Says my wife :-)

Mine thinks I am just overhauling my 620

What did you decide to do? [popcorn]

Well, right now .... nothing, actually.

My mate has just finished putting ST cams in his 800 heads (can never remember it it´s 695 or 696 ...), so I´ll start with noting what he´s done so I can prepare the same since I have the cams. Then I´ll consider my options ...... maybe the kit will show up on Kämnas offer of the month list sometime soon ....

BTW, checking my mates 695 (or 696 ... ?) cylinders, the lower liner bit is 3 mm wall thickness. Going to 840 cc means this will go down to 2 mm. I´ve always been a bit wary of taking things to the limit unless I´m prepared to do a lot of maintenance, or accepting other drawbacks. 2 mm on an alu liner, even if it´s the lower part, seems rather on the limit to me. Any views or experience on this?           

If it's any help, I just measured the lower barrel spigots from an M900 bored to 944, and they are about 3.5 mm.

Of course it´s a help, any info is good to have.

I checked what I have lying around:
ST2: 100 / 94 mm, so wall thickness 3 mm
HYM 1100: 105 / 98 mm, so wall thickness 3.5 mm.

I´ll have to check that 695 barrel again, I suppose. I don´t know if they are the same, but they have the same 88 mm bore, at least.

My small case big bore barrels are 96mm OD, 91mm ID, so 2.5mm wall.

(M750 I think, I'll have to ask the PO)

They have been terrifically reliable, they've given me no trouble at all sitting in a box.  ;D

Just let it be.
Wife`s 800 just works f the occasional Sunday ride, doesn´t it?
Sell the cams, put the money in the 1100 bottom.
Boring but sensible, I know... ;)

Well, to be honest, wife has'nt ridden the 800 for several years du to prblems with her shoulders, but I have ridden it more and more for several years. I've even re-discovered monster track-day riding; great fun on short twisty tracks.  The Öhlins suspension both ends shurely helps :-)
But of course, your suggestion is the sensible alternative
:-)

How would it be a waste of money (the purpose of this thread) if you listen to sensible advice  ???

FWIW my cylinders haven't caused me any trouble at 840 cc (stupid to state publically as a fact, but...)

Haha, you have a point there ... :-)
And  the 840 seems to work very well for you, and I don't think you use the bike too gently ...

 :-[

Kopfjäger here has his Monster out to 859, as a 91x66 I think.

Not sure how many miles he has on it in that configuration.

Perhaps he'll pop in here and tell us.  :)

That would be very interesting. If that´s on stock cylinders, that would have to be the limit .... 

I´ve checked again, seems I got something wrong last time ...
My mates 695 cylinders spigots are outer diameter 96 mm. Going to 90 mm bore would leave 3 mm wall thickness, that should be OK.

My mate also did some work to fit the ST2 cams in the 695 head. Keeping in mind it has not been final assembled yet, it seems the following is needed:

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/644/31399121860_a5d5002891_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PQCH11)20161220_175126 (https://flic.kr/p/PQCH11) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A spacer ring to keep the bearing in the blind side cam cover against the seeger ring;

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/449/30930040994_97445dd632_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/P8bxAS)20161220_175241 (https://flic.kr/p/P8bxAS) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A spacer bush to replace the 2nd bearing on older 2V motors.

To be confirmed when the heads are assembled.

If I got it right, the 695 and M800 motors are old style (roller bearing cams, no cylinder head gasket) and the 696 motors are new style (plain bearing cams, cylinder head gaskets). But I have not checked this ....

   

My 800 heads require spacers to take the 900 ie cams

3 configurations AFAIK.

Early, 2 bearings on pulley end of cam.
Middle, 1 bearing on pulley end.
Late, all plain bearing.

Early and mid have different cam endcaps.

Early is a fairly thick flange for the 4 bolts, ~11mm thick at the edge, and a chamfer to allow better sparkplug access.
Snout that holds the bearing is 23mm long.

Middle has a thinner flange, ~8mm thick at the edge, and no chamfer.
Snout is ~16mm.

Early heads have a boss that's the same shape profile as the flange, about 10mm tall.
Middle heads have no boss at all.

"Early" may go from '02 as far back as the start of belt-drive cams, not sure.
"Middle" appears to have started in '03 with the 620 and 800 motors.

You may find that the fancy spacer you made for the pulley end of the cam is the same thickness as the inner race of the ball bearing that normally fits in the head.
At least that looked promising when I did a mockup.

What was the expected/hoped for increase in power from the addition of the ST2 cams to your planned engine recipe' compared to stock cams? I noticed on the CCW and MBP sites that they expected a 4-6hp increase from ST2 or 900ie cams compared to stock 900V cams. I am very interested to know what is expected from your planned engine configuration with these cams. A good mate has a 944SL with 900ie cams, but although we have not put it on the dyno yet, it now feels stronger from about 5000rpm upwards.

Speeddog, I think you're right on all points. The cam /head bits I did not do myself, but since the cam spacer is in place of the eliminated bearing, your observation is likely correct.
Koko64; I don't really have a target, and so far it's merely a mind game. 840 cc seems OK from a technical point of view, and the ST cams have 1 mm more lift (I think), and quite a bit more duration which has to be interesting :-)
And, I think it would make a very nice and sprighty motor.

Well,
this specific wast of money most likely will not happen in the foreseeable future.

Also the St cams will have to wait, acc to Kämna the pistons require modification. With more lift and more duration, I would not have just slammed the cams in without checking anyway, so < little too much work right now.

However, Kämna also states I need cylinder head gaskets. My mates 696 did not have gaskets, and I would have thought the M800-2003 motor was of the "old gen" type, with no gaskets, just the various O-rings. Anyone knows for sure ??? 

Mine, with Pistals and 900ie cams, has a base 'gasket' ~2(-3) mm.

400, 600, 620, 695, 750, 800 and 900 do not have head gaskets.

1100, DS1000, 796, 696 all have head gaskets.

Thanks Speeddog.
Seems logical. My friends motor is a 695, not 696,  and did not have a head gasket.

Well, as mentioned ( I think ...), the big-bore waste of money did not happen this time, but I figured I´d do some small things at least, like putting in a lighter flywheel. So, preparing for this, I machined a stock flywheel thoroughly, but not extremely:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2877/33780070555_ff80e5aca6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Tt2G6z)20170102_204208 (https://flic.kr/p/Tt2G6z) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

For whatever reason, Ductati does these flywheels in some proper hard steel, it´s really hard and when machining, you´re exposed to an intense barrage of sizzling hot flying machined-off chips.

However, when I remove the left side engine cover, I find this:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3944/32967043243_425bc2f19c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SebHpi)20170401_171111 (https://flic.kr/p/SebHpi) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Whatever it is, it´s not a stock flywheel, I don´t remember putting it there, it´s probably lighter than stock, and I save myself the trouble of checking in detail ... the outside diameter is almost exactly the same as my machined one so ut should be in the same wheight cathegory.

Whatever this time I´ll resist instinct and just leave this one as it is :-)    

    

But a glorious waste of money [beer]

 ???

Not very well stated .... just meaning this time I´ll be lazy and resist the urge to rip it all apart just to see exactly what it is  [coffee]
 

 ???

Well,
uncaracteristically I resisted the urge to waste this particular amount of money and leave the motor as it is; after all it´s working very well.

Instead, I finally got around to adress one of my main dislikes of the Monsters: The wide footpeg arrangement, put there just so Ducati could flog high-pipe exhausts. All the aftermarket rearsets I´ve found retains this caracteristic, so no luck there.

I´ve spent quite a bit of thinking about how to get a robust arrangement without using the support points down on the crankcases. Ducati has one solution on the single sides swingarms, but that uses a protrusion on the swing arm spindle, which moves with the sing arm. This is inconvenient if one wants to use the swing arm spindle as a support, and it took me a while to come up with a possible solution. Simple as it may seem, a picture says more than a 1000 words:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/978/27919121138_2c7ac82bca_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Jx7N2y)2018-04-28 15.22.43 (https://flic.kr/p/Jx7N2y) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

In this way, I use the hanger structures on each sida s a support for the other side, creating a quite stiff box structure. The riding season will tell if it works as planned.

The hangers are water-jet cut out of 10 mm alu plate (6082 or 7075), and slightly agricultural as the whole thing may seem, at this stage it´s mainly a concept test. If it works as planned (hoped? ...), I might get around to making a more elegant CNC version ...

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/830/27919119968_8d5b35f540_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Jx7MFo)2018-04-29 18.16.25 (https://flic.kr/p/Jx7MFo) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

    

        

 [thumbsup] good solution for you.
Very nice bike. I bet she handles well too. ;)

Koko64,
well, for what she is (a 15 year old bike with design roots at least double that) I´d say she handles well. She´s also been the test mule for (almost) countless Showa and Öhlins fork set-ups, and a few for the shock as well. So far, never let me down.

Good work on those rearsets.  I had the same issue on my M695, but lacking the fabrication ability, I had a good result using the footpeg brackets from an ST4.  These moved the pegs up, back, and inboard about an inch and a quarter (32mm) each.  Damned if I can post a photo from Postimage.org, though...

I also considered using the ST pegs, since I had a set (I use the ST master cylinder and hose as you can see; always nice to be ablet use some parts from the bin. Money already wasted :-)), but then I would have had to weld new brackets for the pasenger pegs to the frame, and I did not want to do that.
I still have to organize the passenger pegs (looking at LSL parts from Germany, if I can get them to sell me some ....), an with this arrangement I use basically the stock setup as far as pasenger pegs and silencer mounting are concerned.  

Hello,
not too much happening with the M800 for this riding season, but I did get a pair of 4-pad calipers. It will be interesting to see how they perform on the track.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47745801702_4633736a84_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fK8HpC)2019-02-03 16.44.34 (https://flic.kr/p/2fK8HpC) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I also decided I´d better installa new finl drive, after all the current set is 10 years old and has covered almost 20K km (mostly in the dry, but anyway ...).

However, it seems I was overly ambitious on this one:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33920999518_2556eb38d4_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TFtZnh)2019-05-07 19.42.07 (https://flic.kr/p/TFtZnh) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Almost no stretch, no kinked links. I think I´ll stick to my "DID-only" policy!

 

Well,
With the riding season more or less done for here, time for some reflections and plans.

The 4-pad calipers have been working really well; I can´t say I notice much difference on road, but on track I do not have those "oooppsss" moments when I go from the M800 to the track bike (with monoblocs). With the standard calipers, I´d always overbrake when I got on the track bike.

One thing that has been worrying me is that the motor was running very hot: the exhaust has been getting blue all the way down to the silencer; it´s worse that the photo suggest:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48758225086_a3eeba33bf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hhADBd)2019-07-12 15.18.31 (https://flic.kr/p/2hhADBd) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Since the plugs were also bone-white, lean mixture is the obvious reason, even if the bike was running well enough (almost on par with the 900SSie rain bike).
In order to solve this, I finally bit the bullet and got a Microtec ECU for this bike as well; luckily I got a good demo ex at a reasonable price.

However, when I got the ECU on the bike, with the Microtec base map, the bike refused to run properly. It would start and idle well enough, but would not accept large throttle openings, or high revs, and would eventually start to run on one cyl (max!), and just barely take me back home.
At first I thought this was a mixture issue, but after several experimental richer maps without noticeable improvement, I went for the last option: Install the bigger ignition coils from 900SSie, etc.
 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48758205456_d107d22a2f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hhAxLL)20190919_094855 (https://flic.kr/p/2hhAxLL) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The reason for this was that on my old M900 I had a Nemesis ECU, which is basically a “Micreotec gen 1”, and it had a very annoying misfire at about 6000 – 7000 rpm. I tried all sorts of things, but only the bigger coils finally brought a 95ish% improvement. Luckily, I had all the bracketry etc still lying around so it was a quick operation. It might not be so pretty, but it totally solved the problem...

Next topic is to get a reasonable mapping, and luckily I was able to borrow a Microtec M163 Lambda controller:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48757882803_e23b8df210_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hhyTRM)20190723_123925 (https://flic.kr/p/2hhyTRM) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It´s a very convenient piece of kit: Plug in the lambda sensors, define what A/F values you´d like in the throttle / rpm map, and go for a ride (even if a rolling road would have been better). I went for 12.5 & 100%, 12.8 & 90%, and 13.2 at 80% throttle. Even now, after just some initial runs on road, the bike runs better, and at least the plugs looks healthier. I think it also makes a bit more power, but seat-of-pants impressions can be deceiving ….

For the winter, I really intend to get those ST2 cams in, if possible with  stock pistons. A few hp extra can´t be wrong for the track days, and I really enjoy riding this bike on track.

I have used the same Bridgestone S21 tyres for 2 summers now, and there is still quite a bit of thread left. Before those, I used a set of S20´s for 3 seasons, but I started to feel uncomfortable on them even if they also had quite a bit of thread left, so I put the S21´s on. I suppose that´s a good thing with low-powered bikes; the tire account is not that high.

I am very happy with the Bridgestones, by far the best road tIres I ever had, wet or dry, but I assume that they can only take so many heat cycles before they start to go off. The ones on the bike now still feel fine, but I assume I´ll have to change them during next summer.          

 [thumbsup]
Wow, you go all the way. PCV not available.

Perhaps it's a setting in the ECU?

It's been ages since it ran, but I recall no such issues with the Microtec on my S4.

Different coils, so perhaps not relevant to your issue....

It might be possible to find a setting in the ECU for these coils, but since the big coils worked perfectly, that´s where I´ll leave it for now.

When I had the Nemesis on my M900, I was in contact with a person who knows these things, and tried some advice from them (mainly different dwell times for the coils), but no noticeable difference.
The primary resistances are very different between these coils, if thats the problem or something else, I do not know.

I have only seen these coils on the 2V monsters, I don´t know about the S4; which type of coils do they have?   

They've got the 'stick' coils.

Might want to route those coil wires seperate from the high-tension spark wires.

Sorry to ask a three year old question, but what's the HP gain expected from this sort of swap?  Stock 800 is 77 - could you gain an additional 10 over that?  That dyno pic in the third post is too IZ_ to read.

I think that's Photobucket being a bunch of wankers.

I suspect stopintime can reload it.

I know, not ideal; I will tidy up the installation over winter. I did not have time to do it properly and just wanted everything secured and out of the way.

Wzed; I suppose you are referring to the 840 cc conversion? I hope Stopintime can re-post the diagram, it´s certainly Phuckbucket screwing up the pictures (and sending irritating e-mails every other day).
I suppose the Stopintimes diagram includes all his changes. If you only do the 840 cc conversion, I would expect a similiar increase in torque, i.e. about 5%, 4 hp or so, and not necessarily all on top.

With 840 cc, cams, and porting (and sensible intake / exhaust mods) I would expect something in the 10 hp region, but Stopintime can give more detail, I think.

I hope I will be able to use stock pistons with the ST2 cams I already have, thereby (uncaracteristically) limiting the waste of money in this particular case .... 

Well, both photobucket and flickr have turned even more crazy. No more.

The Ducati Performance exhaust kit (slip ons, open box and ECU) plus my de-cat midpipe increased the BHP by ~4 and torque by ~8 Nm. Plus smoother.

Then came the engine work which increased the power by another 18 BHP. From 77 stock to almost 100 (98.6). Torque from stock 73, via kit 81 to worked 91.

Very very rev happy, but too hot up high - it had to be detuned a couple of horses (more fuel I was told). The throttle response was also too sudden and would rip the engine apart in no time. Fun as hell, but the throttle response had to be slowed down a little (less fuel I was told). Third gear clutch wheelies.

It still does 235 km/h indicated.

Big bore 840cc, lightened and balanced crank, Carrillo rods, Pistal pistons 11:1, squish edge adjusted, cam timing adjusted, port & polish, 2mm larger intake valves, 900ie cams and Power Commander 3.


Don't do it  ;D

 [thumbsup]

 [laugh]

100hp from an 800?  :o [bow_down]. Which big bore kit did you use - the Kaemna one? 

These are adjusted Dyno numbers to match Ducati's earlier "calculated" crank numbers. They are not real world rear wheel numbers. Ducati has always reported real world homologated official numbers in the bikes' paperwork, but in kW - well knowing that nobody can or bother finding the lower bhp from kW.

They ARE real as in a ~30% increase of both power and torque. BOTH. That's the impressive part of Kämna's work.

A bolt on kit won't match this.

Well,
Stopintimes motor shows the benefits of doing an engine "properly", i.e. with bottom end work and not just the "tuning" bits. I suppose Stopintime also noted the same effects of that as I did on the HYM1100 motor: it runs much smoother and "nicer". I only wish I´d got a lighter crank, but I got ahead of myself there ...

In my experience  (or maybe just in my taste ...), a smaller motor with a good tune is more fun to ride than a bigger motor with the same power, as long as low-down torque is not the prime consideration; nothing beats cubes in that respect.

It also shows the problems of power measurements; unless you have a useful reference, the numbers don´t really tell you anything. A friend here now has got his rolling road dyno (not a Dynojet) running, and we measured a 999R a few days ago. On this dyno (which is calibrated acc to spec procedure, whatever that means)  we measured appr. 110 hp @ appr. 10000 rpm. The same bike gave 142 hp on a Dynojet at a major Duc dealer. The 999 owner has now sold a tuned 996 motor (due to go classic superbike racing) which gave 112 hp on this dyno. Would probably not got that deal through without the 999 reference ...  

Manufacturers probably stick to imperial hp numbers (as opposed to metric kW numbers) out of tradition, and because the hp numbers are 1.36 times higher :-)

Thats a significant improvement. [thumbsup]

That's interesting. The dyno I most frequently use is now 10% more conservative in its readouts due to new software. I have to take that 10% into account when comparing old and new dyno runs. Dyno operator said he gets complaints about the newer, lower numbers ;D. Another local dyno consistently reads very high, but I think the operator stays with his original old software to ensure the consistency of his longitudinal data.

What diameter tubing did you use on your exhaust?  Did you need to go larger to match all those mods?

Nope, strangely enough, stock diameter all the way (45mm IIRC). 

This will be a bit of cross-threading here, but since both bikes are on the graph, I post it here as well:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48933315328_6722df3f07_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hy52Qu)Dyno plot (https://flic.kr/p/2hy52Qu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The M800 is stock except for slightly opened-up airbox lid, 2-1 exhaust (using first part of stock headers, outside Ø40 mm) and timed cams. I plan to put in the ST2 cams I have on the shelf, and do some clean-up porting over winter. This dyno run was to get a base line.

I´ve also weighed the bike. With the tank as empty as I could get it, it´s about 163.5 kg.  A lighter set of wheels might be a sensible waste of money .... and < 160 kg!   

Dyno remains unimpressed, apparently.  ;D

Yes, that´s the reason some reference material is needed (the 999R mentioned above). Work is ongoing ... :-)

More like Factory Pro numbers than Dynojet ay?
The 1100's torque curve is very impressive. [thumbsup]

Evening, all.

I hope to find some more power for the M800 during the winter, and since the clutch is slightly marginal already with the stock motor, what would you recommend I do with the wet clutch on these bikes?

Stopintime, I assume you do not have a stock clutch on your hotrod?

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.   

Oh no, no, no  [thumbsdown] Two broken clutches (large springs in the primary driven gear) which could have ended much much worse. Good idea, lousy engineering and even worse: a factory that won't realize/admit it. They have the same shit in Panigales.

I have a 750 clutch. More grabby, but that can be helped by grinding 10-15 grooves in the steels, in a fan pattern. The 696 clutch also fit (also without the springs).

Thanks :-)
I'll check the spare parts lists. I have no experience with any of those clutches, except changing the plates in my M800.
But it seems I'll be on ebay soon ....

Ever so slowly   ST2-cam project is underway.

One of many projects my pal has started is a TT2-type project. It actually got started before the present Classic Sportsbike and Supermono racing took precedence. He did a "conversion kit" to put St2 cams in the the 695 heads. He´s not quite sure how this goes together, and I´ll have to chheck for myself when I get the M800 heads in pieces, but I suppose it will be something similiar to this:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49214036131_f770fefdf3_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hYSNmk)20191213_180415 (https://flic.kr/p/2hYSNmk) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The alu spacer is to compensate for the difference on the drive side, and the narrow ring spacer is to compensate for the shorter cam bit on the cam cover side (does show too well in the photo).

I´ll do the basics before the top end comes completely off: Squish, valve pockets (ST cams simulated by "ST cam timing" inlet and exhaust, openingand closing, on the M800 cams (I think that will give a good indication, correct me if I´m wrong). 

Let´s see what that brings.   

I did y first attempt at a leak-down test yesterday, on the M800. Looking at the advice from Speddog and others (in the other thread) I started by checking the clocks by pressurizing the gauge without attaching the motor hose. It showed about a 1 psi difference at 90 psi, so I take that into account.

I only have a small China garage compressor, so 90 psi is all it can muster. Also, taking readings is a bit difficult becaus eth small tanka empties quickly, then the compressor starts again, increasing the pressure to 90 and some psi, and then slowly sinking again.

As a first attempt, I decided to test with the pistons at BDC.

Anyway, on the horizontal cylinder the gauges showed (corrected) 90/82 psi, for a leak rate of 9% acc to the gauge table, with very audible leak thru the inlet, impossible to seal by pressing the hand aginst the inlet port.

The vetical showed 90/84 psi, for a leak rate of 7%, most of it thru the exhaust port.

I have no reference for this test, but both the numbers and the very audible leakage was a surprise to me, especially on a bike that actually runs quite well.  I will certainly do some more leak-down tests to see wher my other motors are, and how thi one will be after the top-end job.             

 [popcorn]

I´ve spent the last few garage days making baseline tests on the M800 motor.

Squish on the vertical cylinder is between 1.05 and 1.20 mm, so not too much to be gained there.

Valve to piston clearance is pretty generous with the stock cam, remains to be seen what will happen with the St2 cam in place

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264361537_d52380303c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i4jJkK)M800 Standard_03 (https://flic.kr/p/2i4jJkK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr


It really seems that the only thig needed to put the ST2 cams in the M800 heads is a 10 mm spacer on the drive side:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49264169006_b982a667ee_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i4iK7f)2019-12-23 14.50.20 (https://flic.kr/p/2i4iK7f) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

In order to check for valve to piston clearance, I´ll have to do the valve clearances with the ST cam in place. A bit tedius but unavoidable.

A Merry Christmas to everyone,
Torbjörn.

 

Merry Christmas [thumbsup]

What is the difference in the cam base circle between the OE M800 cam and the ST2?

I don´t know, but the duration is almost 30° more on the ST2 cam, which hopefully can be translated into a bit more power.

Base circle differences will affect shim dimensions or at worse valve stem length.  It’s time to check that now.  That way you’re not opening a larger can of worms than you expect.

OK, I see and thanks for the hint.
I don't think it's a problem since others have done this, but of course it's worth a check.
I'm in the process of installing the cams in order to check valve to piston clearance, so I'll soon know ...

 [popcorn]

Those cams have 1mm more lift. If they fit ok it will be interesting to see how the bike performs.

So far, so good...
With reasonable valve clearances and reasonable cam timing, the engine turns without anything hitting. Hopefully I can test actual valve to piston clearances tomorrow. At least I can sleep well tonight :-)

 [thumbsup] glad to hear.
Those cams also have a hell of a lot of duration.  Your 800 is stock capacity and compression?

Just tested the ST2 cams. Seems to be ample room for this:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49277766796_b8a785f284_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i5vrfU)ST2 Inlet CL 113 deg_01 (https://flic.kr/p/2i5vrfU) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Axial / radial clearance inlet / exhaust with inlet lobe centre 113°: 2.9/2.6 mm and 5.0/4.3 mm, respectively.

The motor is otherwise stock, but I´m thinking about removing the base gasket and machine the squish bands on the piston to get 1.0 mm squish height That will increase compression slightly.

I´ll try my hand at some porting next .... hopefully without destroying anything.   

Hello again.
Does anyone know the correct torque values for the head nuts?

Three rounds: 15, 25 and finally 40 Nm

Thanks.
Same as for the 900, then.

I´ve done a bit more work on the M800, and the top end is now all dismantle.

Everything looks surprisingly good, except for some soot and  slight wear signs one might thnk the motor is new ....

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49304866106_04ffca8bd2_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i7UjWo)2019-12-28 21.38.06 (https://flic.kr/p/2i7UjWo) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Pistons looking very good, top ringgap on one piston 0.28 mm, piston vlearance 0.02 to 0.04 mm both cylinders.
Cylinders are round and straight to withing ±0.01 mm. That is not too surpeising, as long as a Nikasil type cylinder has not been ruined by scratches and such, they tend to hold dimensions very well.

The ports are another issue, looking very rural to my inexperienced eye:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49310818776_80088e095f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i8qQsC)20200101_173907 (https://flic.kr/p/2i8qQsC) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Not too good a picture, it´s not quiteeasy to get good close-up photos with the cell phone camera. Anyway, the ports are very uneven, and the machining that has been made have no rounded-off interfaces with the as-cast surfaces. And in my eyes, the boss for the valve guide sits like a plug in the port ....
Also, the small radius / port floor where it turns down towards the bvalve is not a nice radius, it´s more like a shelf edge.

A couple of hours of Dremel work has got me this far:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49305061892_02f18e50e7_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i7Vk91)2019-12-31 14.56.51 (https://flic.kr/p/2i7Vk91) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

at least this pleases my eye a lot better. I´ve abandoned my initial plan to weld up the port floor etc in order to lift the port, since there is a thin-ish section vlose to the valva guide that I do not want to weld on. So I just try to make the whole port more even, and to creat room for some JB Weld at the "smalll radius in order to create a nice(r) raduis without reducing cross-section area.

At least I hope I´m improving things, but only next summer can really tell ...

With that, I´d like to wish everyone a Happy New Year  [shot]





  

 Happy New Year  [beer]

Hello, a few years ago, with a friend we made the assembly of camshaft of ST2 in cylinder heads of M800 which we then mounted on an engine of M750. 
It works perfectly, we just had to machine the cylinder base to go from 8.2 to 9.4 / 1 volumetric ratio. 
all mounted with Keihin FCR 39 carburetors and a few other little things, the monster released its 80 hp.

I put you below the link with the measurements of the holds for the camshafts


http://ducati-mostro-forum.fr/index.php?topic=1216.msg106015#msg106015

Gee, thanks a lot!. Will have to brush up my french as well :-)
I might be back wth some questions.

Evening (in Sweden, that is),

Now I have made the spacers for the cams as per drawings provided, and the width of the M800 cam is the sae as on the ST2 + spacers. Should work OK.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49352461862_dea2f8adb9_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ic7guS)2020-01-08 19.04.00 (https://flic.kr/p/2ic7guS) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Pepeducat,
I´ve looked thru the whole thread (with some problems understanding all). Anyway, there were some pictures of a motor after some problems due to very tight clearances between the valves on overlap (0.5 mm).

Since I have an ST2 motor with big valves built but not yet started, with approx. 0.6 mm between the valves on overlap, I´d be interested in more info on what happend, and why it happened. I´m worried about the 0.6 mm clearances ....  

No it was an assembly with NC7 camshafts which had been badly calibrated, so at the first shot of the starter everything hit with big damage.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/lw4shb2rd/PICT0183.jpg)

With ST2 camshafts on an 800 it works very well.

To reassure you do a blank test of the squish valves / piston [beer]

Do you have some 900V carb cams? Be interesting to see the numbers with them.

This is the first thing I remove on a 900, the original camshafts which I replace with ST2 (HZ) or 900ie (8J), then I get rid of them because the cams are really not optimal .

So I don't have one to control the original crossover gap.

On the other hand I am mounting 900 cylinder heads with 900ie camshafts, I could control the crossing on it.

 [beer]

I'm curious if it's just a cam spec or combustion chamber spec issue.

I thought the 900V cams might be enough for 800cc.

If you are just looking for the cam specs, Brad Black has most of them listed in the MotoOne reports.

not at all, the 900V cams are really not optimal for filling the engine

I recently mounted GioCaMoto on a 900 large valve, it does not work.

So I did the assembly with cylinder heads 900 small valves, and it works, but the GioCaMoto has huge lift

Comparison of risers in red from GioCaMoto and ST2 / IE

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQSJBbwS/gm.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYZSsCKb/STIE.png)

I was thinking about the valves clearance, missing on overlap with 900V cams. Maybe they have more clearance. Brad makes these cams work well in a hi comp 750 with big valves and porting. So do JD Hord and Doug Lofgren in USA . I figured that they should work with 800cc capacity.

Ok, understood.
I have to admit I forgot to check valve-to-valve clearance when I tested for valve-to-piston clearance, partly because it seems to be a rather common mod. I will do, however. I don't have any 900 cams, could have checked otherwise.

You usually see these other cams in 900/944's. I wasn't sure about the dimensions of the 800 heads, combustion chambers, etc. I have no experience with 800's. My feeling is you could get away with more cam in the larger capacity 900 motor combustion chambers and their relatively small valves.

Others will have knowledge of what fits what and the margins involved. I have some 900v heads and I'll check the valve to valve clearance on overlap.

IIRC, 8mm stem 800 valves are the same part# as 8mm 900 valves, so same length and diameter.

Rockers are the same, and AFAIK the geometry of the head; cam centerline, rockershaft centerlines, all is the same.

So if ST2 cams work in a 900 head, they'll work in an 800 head.

Not infallible logic/assumptions, but I think it's correct..

 [thumbsup]

When I checked the valve to valve clearance on overlap with some V heads (M900 1994, oem 43/38 valves and V cams), there was more like approx 1.2-1.3mm gap at the bypass point. Less gap past that point towards the valve seat, but the "fly by" was over by then if you get my drift. Edit: that's confusing. It's a reassuring visual gap.
They must sink the custom 44mm valves in a bit.
Are the valve angles tighter to fit the 43/38 valves in the 800? Does that pull the valve angle in away from the edge of the bore but reduce valve to valve clearance?

https://www.hordpower.com/gallery3/index.php/Dyno-Charts/album07/750ss
http://lofgrenperformance.com/750ss.htm
http://bikeboy.org/brads750m.html

Maybe they might work in an 800? Brad bikeboy has removed the lower rpm loss by advancing the 900V cams. If there are issues maybe this is a way out. I understand there are good alternative cams for the 900, but they work in a modified 750, so why not an 800?

Anyway, just an option if the ST2 cams don't work out.

Thanks for the info  [thumbsup]

I´ll check the clearances as soon as I have the heads assembled again. Right now I´m nearing the end of the porting job (tleast I hope I am ....), and after that I can start assembly. Hope to have the heds complete in a few weeks. 

The question in my mind is, what is the acceptable valve to valve clearance? Maybe Speeddog or others have some specs.

900V cylinder head and ST2 camshafts = 1.3mm at the crossing

Thanks Pepe. Thats huge lift. The big valves hit the pistons?

Thanks Pepe, that's consistent with my measurement of the 900V valves [beer].

Acc to Kämna, 0.5 mm is OK on the 2V engines.
As mentioned, my ST2 with big valves is at 0.60 to 0.65, if I remember correctly. I plan to take the heads off again before I start it and see if it is possible to increase this to 0.8 or so.

DA06090 it is necessary to slightly reduce the diameter of the valves to remove what is not used and to resume the measurement on the piston so that it does not touch.

I did it once, it's a lot of work.

The second time I mounted them in 900V small valve cylinder heads, I just had to resume the measurement on the piston.


I slightly reduce the diameter of the valves to remove what is not used in order to have a very acceptable safety margin, I learned this tip from Roand Simonetti [beer]

 [thumbsup]

Not directly Ductati releated, but I think interesting anyway as a reference; in the sept/oct 2019 issue of Race Engine Technology magazine, there is an article about the White Alligator Racing Suzuki pro-stock drag bike, with a 2V Suzuki-based Vance and Hines motor; bore 89 mm / displacement 1851 cc, valve included angle 52°. Valve sizes not disclosed, but with those basic engine dimensions they can´t be too far off Duc-relevant valve sizes.

The builder claims a min valve-to-valve clearance of 0.03" / 0.762 mm on overlap. The motor is a dual cam with a cam chain or that "allows for about 5° of relative movement in backlash between the rotating parts" (presumably crank °)

I find this pretty brave for an engine that is revved to to 14000 rpm and claimed safe to 14400 rpm ..... but it seems to work.

89mm bore by roughly 74mm stroke.
So M750-ish bore with a really long stroke.
14.4k rpm yikes!

I'm sure quite impressive valve springs, accompanied by a frighteningly large box of end-of-life springs.

0.030" is very close.
Remarkable.

Impressive. Must be Ti valves and tolerances less "than a bee's dick" as we say down here.

The saying, "the correct spec is what let's you sleep at night" applies here ;D

Interesting. When  lived in Stuttgart I learned a german / schwabian expression, "muckasäckle", referring to the genitals of a male mosqito and meaning an insignificant amount ....
Serms some concepts are similiar across  the world :-)

  [laugh]  [beer]

Well,
I consider myself finished with the porting job, incredible how much time one can waste (?) on something like this. The ports are now about as good as I can make them given my plan and my knowledge. If I have really improved something, only a ride and a trip to the Dyno can tell.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49391161081_44d10ab627_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ifwBqM)2020-01-15 16.32.39 (https://flic.kr/p/2ifwBqM) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49391357722_947aa22a4e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ifxBT9)2020-01-15 18.05.06 (https://flic.kr/p/2ifxBT9) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I will have a pro do the valves and valve seats, then it will all go back together.

Coming back to the clutch, which I will also want to improve before the riding season starts. As I remember the clutch, and the way it looks on the spare parts diagram, it´s a perfectly normal clutch (mine has no slip / servo function).  To improve it, I would have started by looking for some stronger springs as a start, but I may be missing something?
 

For the cylinder heads it's good but you can "clean" the exhaust side too and for the clutch already puts new springs

Coming back to the clutch again.... I´ve taken the clutch plates out, and just as a couple of years ago when it was slipping badly, the plates look perfect, though I have not measured them.

I did take a look at the clutch basket and primary drive, since earlier I´ve not thought about it. I suppose this is what you mean, Lars:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49395285102_5872d5258c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ifTKmA)2020-01-16 16.35.37 (https://flic.kr/p/2ifTKmA) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Presumably, the split hear and springs are there to eliminate backlash / reduce noice?

What happened to your clutches, and are the 750 / 696 clutches a straight swap onto the 800 motor?

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.    

The dual mass (spring loaded) primary drive gear is known to fail - often with very bad results.

The basket on an 800 is, I assume/probably, as on mine, spring loaded - also a good idea catastrophically executed.

The drive gear pairs from 620, 750, 696 are not made with these springs and a more robust alternative.

OK, thank you very much. I´ll start the search :-)

Remember that it's important they stay the original pair (for smooth and quiet meshing), so buy a pair from a trusted seller.

You should pass on dry clutch

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLal9wz_FWVTHV65yMFGch3x3BHBBhLR3V

I think a dry clutch conversion would a be a bit over the top right now :-)

This clutch from a 696 should do the trick, I hope, from the same motor:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49404080312_22986e6ba3_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2igEPS9)20200118_155803 (https://flic.kr/p/2igEPS9) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Now I just have to figure out how to get the primary gear on the 800 off, seems the I need some kind of a 4-pronged castellated socket ....

The driven gear (basket) on a table. Roll the drive gear over it. Not completely dry - at least a tiny amount of oil. The sound should be very low, smooth, delicious, soothing, relaxing - making a mechanic happy. Any kind of rubbing, rumbling, resistance could mean they're not a pair.

This is a source here in the US, likely very impractical for you, but it's got some info.

https://whittet-higgins.com/part.php?series_id=76

OEM gear puller and spanner socket.

Notice the very robust construction.
I leave the nut on the end of the crank, backed off a couple turns, to keep the puller and gear on the motor when the gear comes off the taper with a bang.
I paid a lot for that puller and don't want to get a ding in it when it leaps off and breaks my foot.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49404809106_68c789eec7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2igJyvy)

Thanks, Speeddog.

My buddy has one of those pullers, equally sturdy :-)

I´ll have to organize the socket, or maybe I´ll bring the whole motor to the nearest Ducati dealer. I don´t expect I´ll be needng the socket more than once .... 

I've used that socket once, for sure, maybe twice.  :-\

Puller looks overbuilt until seen in action.

Hello, all.

Today is uncacteristically a nice day here, so biking almost looks like an attractive activity ..... but quite a lot of work remains until the m80o will go anywhere. I got the cylinder heads and valves back from valve seat work the other fay, so they will going back together soon.

I still do not have a clutch, though. My buddy went to a dealer to get some motors he´d bought for parts, and I asked him to check for a 750 clutch. Due to me beeing rather unspecific, and my buddy beeing a bit over-enthusiastic, he came back with a scrap 750 motor as well. Unfortunately the old one with the releas mechnism in the cluct cover ....

I´ve tken it apart anyway in order to see if anything could be used, and it might possibly --- I gave up any activities when I found the drive ratio of the 750 is 31/62, a opposed to the m800´s 33/61. I do not want a clutch making the engne spin faster at a given speed.

I do not know the specifics of various clutches, and LArs has menioned several that will fit on the m800 motor. However, if I specify what I´m looking for as follows:

 ¤ No fancy spring damper arrangements;
 ¤ No slip / lock-up function (which I think the newer wet clutches have);
 ¤ 33/61 ratio

What would you recommend me to look for, provided there is something that fits these requirements?
If there isn´t, what´s the next best alternative?

I don´t know this kind of things, and looking into Duc spare parts lists is not much help. So I´m putting my faith in this forums knowledgeable members :-)   
   

You're looking for year and model of motors that have the clutch you want?

Exactly!

There seems to be 3 versions of the 'regular' clutch basket.

Appears that they all use the same plate set and hub.

You'll have to plow through this and cross reference to confirm.

This information source is ~99% reliable.

Each year and model owners manual will confirm the 33/61 gearing, so best to check that as well.

Sorry for the formatting and frequency of the word 'clutch'.




17020312A Appears to be a steel basket with a ring

1998   600   
Clutch
1998   600 Dark   
Clutch
1998   750   
Clutch
1999   600   
Clutch
1999   600 City   
Clutch
1999   600 Dark   
Clutch
1999   600 Dark City   
Clutch
1999   750   
Clutch
1999   750 City   
Clutch
1999   750 Dark   
Clutch
1999   750 Dark City   
Clutch
1999   750 SS   
Clutch
1999   750 SS USA   
Clutch
1999   750 USA   
Clutch
2000   600   
Clutch
2000   750   
Clutch
2000   750 SS   
Clutch
2001   600   
Clutch
2001   750   
Clutch
2001   750 S   
Clutch
2001   750 SS   
Clutch
2002   620   
Clutch
2002   750   
Clutch
2002   750 S   
Clutch
2002   750 SS   
Clutch
2003   620   
Clutch

17020711A - Appears to be an aluminum basket with a ring

2003   800   
Clutch
2003   800 S   
Clutch
2003   800 SS   
Clutch
2004   800   
Clutch
2004   800 SS   
Clutch
2005   800 SS   
Clutch
2005   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2006   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2007   800 SS USA   
Clutch


17020311B - Appears to be a steel basket with no ring[/b]
2003   620   
Clutch
2003   620 S   
Clutch
2004   620   
Clutch 5 Speed Single Disk

19020092B - The corresponding clutch plate set

1998   600   
Clutch
1998   600 Dark   
Clutch
1998   750   
Clutch
1999   600   
Clutch
1999   600 City   
Clutch
1999   600 Dark   
Clutch
1999   600 Dark City   
Clutch
1999   750   
Clutch
1999   750 City   
Clutch
1999   750 Dark   
Clutch
1999   750 Dark City   
Clutch
1999   750 SS   
Clutch
1999   750 SS USA   
Clutch
1999   750 USA   
Clutch
2000   400   
Clutch My00
2000   400   
Clutch My01
2000   600   
Clutch
2000   750   
Clutch
2000   750 SS   
Clutch
2001   400   
Clutch My00
2001   400   
Clutch My01
2001   600   
Clutch
2001   750   
Clutch
2001   750 S   
Clutch
2001   750 SS   
Clutch
2002   400   
Clutch
2002   620   
Clutch
2002   750   
Clutch
2002   750 S   
Clutch
2002   750 SS   
Clutch
2003   400   
Clutch
2003   620   
Clutch
2003   620 S   
Clutch
2003   800   
Clutch
2003   800 S   
Clutch
2003   800 SS   
Clutch
2004   400   
Clutch
2004   620   
Clutch 5 Speed Single Disk
2004   800   
Clutch
2004   800 SS   
Clutch
2005   400   
Clutch
2005   400 Dark   
Clutch
2005   400 Dark JAP   
Clutch
2005   800 SS   
Clutch
2005   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2006   400   
Clutch
2006   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2007   400   
Clutch
2007   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2008   400   
Clutch


19610163A - The corresponding hub

Year   Model   Fiche Section
1998   600   
Clutch
1998   600 Dark   
Clutch
1998   750   
Clutch
1999   600   
Clutch
1999   600 City   
Clutch
1999   600 Dark   
Clutch
1999   600 Dark City   
Clutch
1999   750   
Clutch
1999   750 City   
Clutch
1999   750 Dark   
Clutch
1999   750 Dark City   
Clutch
1999   750 SS   
Clutch
1999   750 SS USA   
Clutch
1999   750 USA   
Clutch
2000   400   
Clutch My00
2000   400   
Clutch My01
2000   600   
Clutch
2000   750   
Clutch
2000   750 SS   
Clutch
2001   400   
Clutch My00
2001   400   
Clutch My01
2001   600   
Clutch
2001   750   
Clutch
2001   750 S   
Clutch
2001   750 SS   
Clutch
Year   Model   Fiche Section
2002   400   
Clutch
2002   620   
Clutch
2002   750   
Clutch
2002   750 S   
Clutch
2002   750 SS   
Clutch
2003   400   
Clutch
2003   620   
Clutch
2003   620 S   
Clutch
2003   800   
Clutch
2003   800 S   
Clutch
2003   800 SS   
Clutch
2004   400   
Clutch
2004   620   
Clutch 5 Speed Single Disk
2004   800   
Clutch
2004   800 SS   
Clutch
2005   400   
Clutch
2005   400 Dark   
Clutch
2005   400 Dark JAP   
Clutch
2005   800 SS   
Clutch
2005   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2006   400   
Clutch
2006   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2007   400   
Clutch
2007   800 SS USA   
Clutch
2008   400   
Clutch

Speedog,
fantastic, thank you [thumbsup]

I´ll go through this, should really help.

How important do you think a matched set of clutch/ primary gears is? I´ve been looking in ebay, a lot of clutch baskets but often without the crank gear.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn. 

^^^

You’re going to really want to get a matched set.  A mis-matched set will work, but could start howling later on.  Generally, it’s always best practice to get a matched set.

I´ll see what I can find on ebay, hopefully I can find a complete set-up (and hope the potential seller ic an honest person ...).

Many years ago when I lived in Germany, I saw an ad for Yam XS650 parts. I went to see the guy, and he had lots of XS650 parts ..... all sorted in bins and shelves, all crankcase uppers in one shelf, the lowers in another, all  input shaft 1st gears in one bin, all the output shaft gears in another, and so on ..... it was like a goldmine, only it was not real gold.

Anyway, in order to run the motor without the cyl base gaskets, I had to machine the squish bands on the pistons:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49423813392_025d38fe95_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iipXPE)20200121_213126 (https://flic.kr/p/2iipXPE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The squish area in the heads is at about 8° relstive the gasket surface, so I machined the pistons at 6.5° to 7° in order to not get a squish area that opens towards the cylinder wall. I just measured the vertical cylinder, and the clearance is 0.9mm at the piston edge, and 1.1 mm 9 mm in on the piston. I think I can get away with that.
II just hope the othe piston will be in the same area, both started at 1.2 mm with the 0.4 mm base gasket.

I´ll check compression once I have the heads assembled.  

Good job [thumbsup]

 [thumbsup] [popcorn]
Really like this project. :D

Thanks, glad you see it that way; I don´t see the end of it anytime soon :-) 

Hello, all.

I just bought a clutch unseen on the proision I could give it back if it was not what I was looking for (no-frills, no springs etc). I just took it from the box it came in:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49565788061_5012582b26_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ivXBWM)20200221_180250 (https://flic.kr/p/2ivXBWM) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Presumably, with all tht stuff in the centre, it is the slip/grip clutch (don´t remember Ducatis acronym for it)?

If so, I´ll give it back, I want this to be as simple as possible.

Kind regards, and a nice weekend to all :-) 

Yes, that's an APTC clutch AFAIK.

Thanks Speedog!

I can confirm this.

Why not an APTC clutch?

Violent on/off on hard take offs. Heavy shock dampening springs under the large primary driven gear brakes too often. Twice on mine. Doesn't happen with 'normal' clutches.

the 696/796 ones don't have the springs at least.

Exactly, this one had solid primary gears wihout springs. But the clutch itself does look much mor "sophisticated", with more components and tiny parts in the castings.

It has proven very difficult to find a clutch and matched primary drive crank gear. 

The search goes on ....

 ... and has been successful:-)

I now have an M620 primary gear and basket, and my hub is the same as on the 620.

In the process, I came across an old 750 motor, the one with the slave cylinder in the right-han cover. The springs in that clutch are the same length as my m800 springs, but are appr. 18 N/mm instead of 13 N/mm. I will use 3 each to start with .....

I´ve spent this wee trying to establish compression ratio, but realized I need measuring equipment; I´ll get a 50 ml burette with a tap so it can be quickly and positively closed.
Anyway, it seems I am at around 10.3 to 10.5 : 1, and that removing the base gasket and some compensating machining of the piston squish bands reduced compression volume by appr 1.8 cm³ and increased compression by appr. 0.4 points. Every little bit helps ....

 

 

Hello,

yesterday I intended to start assembling the top end of the motor, but it quickly came to a halt. I´ve never been fond of putting the piston pin circlips in place, but so far I have prevailed. However, this time I admitted defeat, at least for the time beeing; the circlips I got are simply too big. My dealer maintains they are the right ones, and I don´t know ....

I ordered P/N 06754 7460, but that P/N has ben replaced by D12111741A, acc to Ducati parts list. I did some measuring and got the following:

M800 (18 mm pin):
Old circlip: D = 20.2 mm
D12111741A: D = 21.2 mm

HYM 1100
STock circlip): D = 21.7 mm (19mm pin)

All measured  perpendicular to the gap.

When I mount this kind of circlips, I usually place the circlip so I can use the "pry-out" notch to lever the circlip into the pin bore and then push it in place in the groove. Usually works OK.
With the 1 mm bigger diameter D12111741A circlip, that´s impossible, the circlip just can´t be levered in, it just turns out of the groove no matter how I try to hold it in place. Might of course just be me, but I can´t get it in place.

Looking into my old DIN standard handbook, the 18 mm pin should usually use a 1.3 mm wire circlip, but 1.5 mm (as here is also listed) Diameter tolerance +1 / -0 mm, so technically these circlips might just be in tolerance, but all others I´ve measured have been close to nominal.

Any experience with this, and potentially advice, would be much appreciated. [bow_down]   

Any issues with using old circlips?

Well, yes and no. Generally speaking, they are cheap and easily obtainable, so I´ve always replaced them as a matter of course. Also, there is always the risk of overstrarining them when mounting / dismounting them, so one cycle less always feel safer.

In this case, I was going to re-use the old ones, but I wanted to see what the Pistal circlips would be like. Got them in 2 days from Kämna, and managed to put them in place without too much drama.
To be fair, I think I might have managed mounting the ones I got from Ducati as well, since I found a better method of mounting the circlips, but I still feel a bit cautious about them since they were so big compared to the original ones, and also compared to the circlips in my stock HYM1100 pistons with 1 mm larger wrist pins. That´s just fine if you get them mounted OK, but it also might increase the risk of permanently deforming them when mounting unless you have proper procedure / tools.   

Tomorrow I plan to put the motor back together, if I and he rest of the family are OK. Hope everyone is doing OK in these troubled times, my thoughts are with anyone struggling, especially due to the Corona virus.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.   

Best wishes to you too and your family.

First of all, thanks for the well wishes, and the same to you all.

I had hoped to have the m800 running by now, and technically speaking, I have …. But technically speaking, I´m currently the owner of a 400cc Monstermono.
It took me a bit of research to find the problem, but I think it´s down to a broken injector on the vertical cylinder.  I first thought it was a return of what happened several times on the m900 with Vtwo cams, where it was easy to get the cam one tooth wrong; the motor would still tun, but the header just got lukewarm. In this case, the rear header was stone cold. Spark seemed to be present, and the motor seemed to react slightly to start gas sprayed into the intake of the V cylinder.

On closer inspection, the electrical connector seemed to be broken partially loose from the injector body (on the feed side). I have no idea how that happened, but since the bike ran until I closed it down last fall, and did not run now, the finger points back at me ….

Anyway, should anyone break an injector, don´t buy a new one from Ducati. I checked spare part price, and it is close to the equivalent of USD 600. You do get the fuel T-coupling included, but still … I just ordered a new one from Bike Sport Development in the UK. Still cost me appr. USD 140.
EBay sell them for appr. USD 45, but I suspect that to be Chinaware, nothing I´d care for.

So, right now I´m waiting for the injector. The motor has the new (to me) clutch, porting, no cyl base gasket / machined pistons, and the ST cams. I was aiming at an inlet centerline of 114°, but my first attempt showed 111.5°. Since I don´t really know what would be best, and since the stock cams were at 106°, I decided to leave them at that since they were both almost exactly the same.

I´ve also fitted a fresh set of Bridgestone S22´s, so I am getting anxious to test all that new stuff, hoping not to be disappointed on any account. Fingers crossed.

Anyway, before any running at all, I did a compression test, with the Hor / Vert showing 8.5 bar/125 psi and 9.25 bar/130 psi respectively.

I also did a leak-down test, after a minute or so of one-cylinder running, but that did not yield any useful data at all, both cylinders leaking heavily through the exhaust valves (full valve job by a pro). I put that down to the fresh valve jobs, and my inexperience with leak-down test. I´ll keep testing when I have the motor running.

In order to easily perform the leak-down tests single-handedly, I made a tool to lock down the cam drive wheel:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49750723786_133955a331_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iNisTL)20200408_173455 (https://flic.kr/p/2iNisTL) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It seems the 4 holes in the drive wheels are not on the exact same CC radius / on generous tolerance; on the 4 sets I checked the tool would fit in one position, but not over the 2 other holes. I did not quite get that “safe-door click” fit I like to get with a tool I´ve made, but it does the job ….         

Glad you're well and busy. Watching to see your results. [popcorn]

What's the standard cranking compression in these motors?
Do you suspect the cranking compression has been lowered by the timing of these hot ST cams? With the timing numbers you originally planned, was your goal to advance the cams to avoid this?

I ask because we once fitted 900ie cams to a very high comp 944 to deliberately bleed off excessive cranking compression  (12.5-13:1). The very high, low rpm cylinder pressure was causing all sorts of issues.

Your numbers appear low and I was expecting 170-180 psi at a guess.

I'm assuming you checked the bikeboy cam specs as a reference for oem timing Vs advancing the cams?

Thanks :-)

I don´t know what the normal cranking pressure would be, but I got similiar results when I checked the HYM motor after last summer. However, the gauge adaptors i had were very awkward to fit, and somewhat prone to leaking, so I´ve made a new adaptor that´s easier to use. I´m basically doing cranking pressure tests now to get some data and make sure I get reliable results. I would have expected some higher numbers as well though.

I have (of course, excellent info on anything Ducati) read the Bikeboy reports; I´ve chosen inlet CL with an eye to the bike beeing used mostly on track these days. Theoretically, a later inlet closing should favour higher rpm operation. But at this stage, it´s mostly a matter of chosing a sensible value, get the bike running OK and see where to possibly go from there. I ran similiar cam timing on my old m900 with hi-comp pistons and veetwo cams.

I will do frequent cranking pressure tests and leak-down tests on both bikes in order to collect sufficient data to make the tests usable diagnostic tools. I suppose I´ll do some on other bikes as well as referene.

I'll be watching closely, because I really enjoy your projects.  [beer]

Cranking pressure at full throttle...correct?

I'm happy if my dabbling in various aspects of modiifications are of interest, I just hope the final results will not be too embarassing to me. Whatever the result, some lesson will be learnt :-)

And yes, at full throttle. I'll do some alternate testing just to check if I'm on the right page or not. The numbers are slightly strange to me, too.

Are they new rings?

Oops, misssed this question.

No, no new rings or anything.

I´ll try another gauge that I have borrowed, to eliminate instrument issues. 

The comp tools I've seen and used require cranking the motor until the gauge needle no longer moves in order to get a true reading rather than a set number. Maybe your homemade tool needs more time to pressurize?

That´s the way I do it. The gauge is a standard cranking pressure gage, I´ve just made an adapter for reaching down to the spark plug hole.

I hope to have some minutes running on the motor over the weekend, will test again if all is well after that.

You are testing with the throttle open?  Warm engine?  Hot cams will lower numbers at cranking speed too.

Throttle fully open, cold motor (so far). Not sure what is the best, hot or cold motor, but cold is at least easier to keep rougly constant conditions.

+1
Yes, temp will effect the numbers. Warm motor for sure.

The weather has been nice but quite cool here in Sweden, and I have managed a a few short test rides, maybe 30 or so km each.

Before venturing far from home, I made two shorter trips around the where I live, maybe 1.5 km each, and stopped to check that evrything was working and OK. Inspite of this, the first test ride could have ended in tears; as I pulled up in front of the garage again I felt the smell of burnt oil, and getting off the bike I saw the entire right side of bike and rear tire smeared with oil. The most likely source seemed to be the oil cooler hoses / connections. When I assembled them, I noticed one of the small O-rings was missing, so I took one from another hose I had lying around. Probably not a good idea …. I got some new ones and changed them all, and noticed that the old ones were pretty brittle, and one was kaputt again.  30 km test ride today and no further leaks, so I assume that was the problem.
So my practice from now on, and advice to anyone, will be new O-rings on any oil cooler connection that has been taken apart for the first time in a long time. Also some care is necessary whn pushing the male hose connector into the female connector on the motor, as it is easy to dislodge / cut the O-rings.

Anyway, the test rides so far seem positive, the motor is running very nicely, pulling well from low or high revs with no hick-ups or such. I can´t tell if it´s any stronger, the first rides of the year will make any bike feel like a rocketship, but impressions so far are very positive. However, I need a trackday so I can load the motor at full throttle in at least 4th gear in order to say much, and I need a session on the dyno to know for sure.

The clutch is also working well, but with one slightly odd feature: The clutch bottoms out before the clutch lever does, so to speak, but there are no clonks engaging first gear, and finding neutral also works, but it does feel a bit odd at a stoplight whit the clutch pulled and the bike in gear. I suppose I will have to check on that, eventually.
Cranking pressures remain in the same region, and another gauge I borrowed showed similiar values, so it´s not the gauges. I´ll test both cranking pressures and do leak-down tests when I have some more running time on the motor.

Did you shim the springs on the clutch?

No.

Maybe the 70 springs I used (3 pcs) differ more than I thought.

To be further investigated.

Or the slave cylinder is bottoming out; pushrod too short/stack too thick
('too' meaning too much for the hydraulic system, stack may perfectly well need to be what it is)

Yes, you´re right. Slave and pushrod are the same, but with the different clutch, maybe something is not stacking up quite the same. I will investigate, eventually. Also check the stack to make sure (if) I got that right.

Stack may be taller, which is no big deal if it's working properly.
I'd try a 3mm thick spacer pill on the end of the pushrod that's easiest to access.

 [thumbsup]

The M800 was originally bought as  bike for my wife, and sch thought the clutch was too heavy so i bought a slave for lighter actionm (turned ou to bea Yoyodye). Can´t say I noticed much difference at the time, but now I figured I´d put in the stock slave, just in case ... and it worked, the clutch action at the leer is now normal.

Cant´t really say I understand why this is so, but provided it works with the motor running and wheels turning (or not ...), that´s good enough for me now.

HAve a good weekend, all;
Torbjörn.

Edit:
After a test ride, I have to go back on this statement. It felt different, but it´s basically the same ..... but works fine so I´ll leave it at that for now.

Well,

by now I had hoped to have had a mapping and measuring session on the dyno, but that has not been possible yet. So for the time beeing, I have to rely on  seat-of-the-pants feeling, and back-to-back comparison in order to assess tuning results (good or bad).

In the best of cases, back-to-back testing is difficult, and a winter between the back-to-backs does not help. And seat-of-the-pants is notoriously unreliable anyay.

So, with about 100 km on the road, and an hour and a half on track, I can only establish that the motor is running well enough. I think it is running pretty strongly up to 8500 - 9000 rpm, and that there is no reason to use the rev limiter (fuel at 9200 ignition cut at 9300). It does feel nice and strong, pulling nicely from low revs until 8500  9000 rpm. 

Maybe I had hoped for a bit more top-end, but moderately tuned Duc 2V motors don´t really feel that much different; it´s sort of same-same, but more.  Sooner or later, the dyno will tell; reults will be reported.


     

Hello again.
A summer quite different from other summers has almost passed, I have done very little street riding, but quite a few more track days than I thought when I wrote the last instalment.
 
What has not yet happened is the dyno test, since I want to do it on the same dyno that has not been available yet. I hope now when the riding season is more or less over, maybe dyno season is about to start ….
So far, I´ve done 2060 km this summer, most of it on track. I use to zero the trip  meter before each track day (unless I forget it), and when doing so last time, I noticed the odometer just happened to b on a nice round number:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50295412781_96ab5763df_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jCr8Xk)2020-08-16 08.23.22 (https://flic.kr/p/2jCr8Xk) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Maybe  not so impressive for a 2003 MY bike, but life is not just motorcycles.

Anyway, in order to have some means of tracking speed etc, I swallowed deep and bought a laptimer with GPS, and I have been tracking true speed with it. It would have been even better if I´d done it last year so I´d have had some ”before” numbers, but you have to start somewhere.
I first tested it at a track called Mantorp Park. It´s a tricky track top-speed-wise, since the main straight is slightly uphill, and starts with a chicane. The 200m sign is just after the crest, and just touching the 9200 RPM limiter in 5th equalled 205 km/h on the GPS.

Since I was curious as to what it would do in 6th gear, I bought a track day at  the Anderstorp circuit, which has the longest main straight of any swedish track, and is generally a horsepower track. Exactly the place for an M800, and I did get it into 6th gear and hold it there for a while.
However, this straight also is not long enough for real top speed on an m800, but at least I did manage 210 km/h. A V4s Duc club mate said he saw 290 before braking …. It is a bit difficult these days on an m800, there are all sorts of Panigales and V4s in all speed groups, and the speed differential can sometimes be frightening.

So, on the good side, all I can say (still) is that the bike runs quite nicely, and that when I first rode it, I noticed a different note from under the tank compared to before.

On the maybe-not-so-good (?) side;  there is also a strange thing that I have not noticed before, so I assume it´s new:  There is a strange vibration, mainly in the footpegs, that appears to be engine load dependant. At steady speed at, say, 4000 rpm, it´s barely noticeable, but loading the motor slightly produces much more pronounced vibes, reduce the load slightly and it goes away. It´s also strange because it is a sort of resonant load, like going over consecutive, evenly spaced stretches  of rumble strip, with smooth streches between them.   I don´t know what it could be, but I´ll do some checking over the winter. Just not exactly sure what.

The M620 clutch has worked fine, and I have used 3 each of the standard springs, and of the old 750 springs. They are roughly the same free height, but the 50% stiffer 750 springs have thicker wire that bottomed out before the actuators did. One 1-mm washer between the clutch hub post and the spring ”hat” washer solved that, and the clutch has been working fine after that.  
   
This weekend I was supposed to do the 3 last track days of the summer (Friday again at the Mantorp Park circuit, and Saturday / Sunday at another, smaller  track with the Duc club), but a walk in the woods with the dog yesterday produced a belly landing that changed that plan:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50295413676_5685da5fa1_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jCr9dL)received_324695448885219 (https://flic.kr/p/2jCr9dL) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

So, I´ve sold the Friday to a friend, and I´ll see if I can trundle around the track with the Duc club, I have no idea what the hand will do. Colour and swellings have moved around the hand all day, only time will tell.

On a philosophical note; It really does not take much speed to do considerable damage, but you can also walk away from a high speed crash more or less unscathed, it´s really a matter of luck.
Anyway, since I was not on the bike, at least I have no repairs to make ….  

Glad you could do some track days at least before the injury. Heal up quick!

Looking forward to the dyno results. Regarding the resonance, the first thing I think of is to examine the chain and sprockets or a wheel bearing, but I'm only guessing.

Thanks [thumbsup]

Turned out my little finger was broken, so my hand is now in a cast. Not much to complain about in times like these, and maybe a reminder to appreciate when things are just normal.

As for the vibrations, chain and sprockets were new last year, so I don´t think they are the cause. I have been thinking about the wheel bearings, and will check them, but I can´t really see them causing what I´m feeling, but you never know ....

I hope I can do some more riding this year, and if so I´ll do some tests with the footpeg arrangement. I did make some small changes this winter, and that might have changed something from a vibration / resonance perspective. What´s strange to me is that the vibrations seems so engine load dependant. I suppose if I do find out what´d causing this phenomenon, I will have learnt something new  :)            

To a quick and complete recovery [beer]

Thank you. As far as I can remember, it´s actually the second time I´ve actually broken something. First time it was a toe after I collided with a friend on mopeds, aged 15, and now a little finger, aged 65. I hope I can stick to that regularity .... ;) 

 ;D [thumbsup]

Well,
finally it´s happened, last friday we dynoed the M800, along with some (much needed) ajustments to the full-load map. Here´s the comparison:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50532391568_f877cb0b44_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jZnHuu)Bänkning 201023_03 (https://flic.kr/p/2jZnHuu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

3-Dyno Run 2019-10-05           Last year, stock motor
4-Dyno Run 2020-10-23           First run this year, VERY rich (appr. 10.-11:1)
5-Dyno Run 2020-10-23           Primary fuelling adjustment

Basically, 10% improvement from porting, ST2 cams and squish clearance adjustement thru omitting base gasket and machining the pistons for 1 mm squish. Basically, this brought the compression up to nominal (10.5:1).
I had hoped the first digit would be a "7", but that was not to happen. Still, with just slightly creative bookkeeping, I could say it cost me nothng except the work, so from that point of view it´s OK.
If my porting efforts helped or detracted from the end result, no idea. Or, well, the way the ports looked, I actually do think it helped, but no idea how much.

Some more graphs:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50533273647_8c45d57ee5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jZseGK)Bänkning 201023_01 (https://flic.kr/p/2jZseGK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

3-Dyno Run 2019-10-05            Last year, stock motor
5-Dyno Run 2020-10-23           First run this year, VERY rich (appr. 10.-11:1)
19-Dyno Run 2020-10-23         Many fuelling adjustments later ....
22-Dyno Run 2020-10-23         Ignition retarded 2° on full load above 6000 or so rpm

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50533116891_c4a8a82b82_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jZrr74)Bänkning 201023_02 (https://flic.kr/p/2jZrr74) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

#19 and #22 again, with AFR graphs.

Next up will be winter servicing, and I´ll also check cranking pressure and do a leak-down test to see where that may have landed.

  

So about 6hp and stronger from 5000 rpm to redline. [thumbsup]

Yes,
something in that region.
Not spectacular, but OK for the cost involved, and for the experience gained :-)

It was my plan to do the service as soon as the riding season as over, but my broken finger both ended my riding season early, and postponed my "servicing season". A doble whammy, I suppose.

Anyway, service is on with valves, oil etc. The valve clearances needs some minor adjustments, but with the MBP collets the closer clearances stay amazingly stable.

I´ve also tested cranking pressures, which remain suspiciously low (but consistent), but I think it´s as much a reflection on the starters ability to turn the engine, as it is on cranking pressure capability. Anyway:
Horizontal 9 bar / 130 psi; Very slightly less, maybe 8.8 / 125.   

I´ve also made a leak-down test, and I think that´s more encouraging. My new compressor manages a gauge pressure of 100 psi, leakdown numbers as follows:
Horizontal 94 psi (=> 6%), Vertical 95 psi (=> 5%). I think those numbers are OK for a motor with 40k+ km, but leak-down testing is new to me so there´s more to learn, I suppose. 

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.

Under 10% is good, so you are fine.

Thanks. I can sleep well tonight :-)

I think the cranking cylinder pressures are low because of the ST2 cams.

That could well be a factor. I do think I´ve done a cranking test at some time before I did the modification, but I don´t remember any numbers and I can´t find any notes. So as long as the numbers ar consistant and even between the cylinders I´ll be content :-)   

 [thumbsup] Yes its all good and starting will be easier too as those cams will bleed off some cylinder pressure at cranking speed. The benefit is at other parts of the rev range as the dyno shows.  Guess it's a case of cranking and mechanical compression Vs Dynamic and Potential compression.

We fixed a very hi comp 944 Superlight that killed its starter motor and sprague bearing by using hotter cams from a 900ie (Speeddog sold them to me :).). It was the highest compression desmodue street motor I had dealt with at 12-12.5 : 1. Reducing cranking cylinder pressure solved the starting problem and increased peak hp. The ST2 cams leave room for more compression and big bore cylinders for the next build ;D

I had no idea the ST2 cams were that hot.  What a wonderful way to increase cranking speed!

That Superlight could barely turn over after a few squirts of the FCR accelerator pump, comp must have been sky high with the fuel in the chamber. I remember thinking, "that bike could use some more cam!"

The 900ie and ST cams are the hot oem desmodue cams. A curious choice for a sport tourer though, you'd think 900V cams would have been better for the ST2. The ST2 cams have more duration than even the 900ie. I was surprised when I read the Bikeboy cam chart (which is like the great library of Alexandria for ducatista). [thumbsup]

I'm looking at some 900V cams (and valves) right now, and at my 750.. [bang] [laugh]

I hope we will see a thread on that soon :-)

Now that's a waste of money! [laugh]

 [thumbsup]

How is the summer riding and testing coming along?

Thanks for asking  :)

To be honest, there has not been all that much of riding and testing. We´ve had a cold spring, and now we´re having a quite warm summer (but nothing compared to what I see in the news from the US and also Australia, of course). The riding urge is not as strong as it used to be, I suppose I´m getting old and slightly lazy ...

What riding I have done has been very good, with the mapping we did last fall it runs much nicer, and I find the altered power caracteristics entertaining. Of course I would have preferred to have the higher low-end torque of the stock motor as well as the added top-end of the tuned motor, but you can´t have it all, I suppose ... :-\   

I will probably leave the monster pretty much alone for the time beeing, as any further significant improvements would require major modifications. Maybe at some point I´d consider "proper" hi-comp pistons. I´ve stayed away from that so far so I could still run the low-octane fuel (95 RON, I think), but starting August 1st, Sweden (by government mandate) will go from E5 to E10 fuel, so I will only use the 98-octne fuel after that. So whenever I might decide to do something, I suppose hi-comp pistons would be the logical next step.

Most of my bike-related activities are now concentrated on the HYM1100 motor in my track day bike, I will eventually post an update in that thread.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.       

Cheers [beer]

Look forward to that update too.

Thanks, and cheers to you as well!

 [beer]

Torbjörn.

Hi all,

I just got this photo from a friend, with the questions "it should not be like this, should it ...". I suppose this is an illustration to what might happen with the "damped" clutch / primary transmission assemblies  ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51418571100_ed142fe8b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mkFBMW)Clutch mishap (https://flic.kr/p/2mkFBMW) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Wasn’t the best design, that one…

They continued it up to at least the Panigale 1199R, maybe still do.....  stubborn make the beast with two backsers.

Hello, all.

There has been a few dyno sessions recently. Main aim was to check progress (or otherwise) on the track bike, but before tht, and in order to check that the dyno was reasonably consistent, we re-tested my m800, which has not been changed atall since the last dyno check last year.

Additionally, a totally stock (apart from no snorchels on the air box and mapped accordingly) but freshly service 900SSie with cams timed for an inlet CL of 109° was dynoed, so this gave a nice comparison for my m800.

First torque:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51699173205_254d46458d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mLtM2g)M800 torque graph (https://flic.kr/p/2mLtM2g) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Not surprisingly, the 900 has much more midrange torque. Also not so suprisingly, the ST2-cammed 800 has considerably less midrange torque than the stock-cammed version.

The resulting power graph:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51699173220_87f2c9b5f8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mLtM2w)M800 power graph (https://flic.kr/p/2mLtM2w) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As you may expect, the 800 now thrives on revs, and it is (in my opinion) much more fun to ride; there´s now a noticeable step in the power delivery at about 6k rpm, and it does not hit the proverbial brick wall beyond the power peak. Of course, if I were to ride a lot 2-up or with much luggage, it may not have been so nice.

It´s also becoming clear that is is not so easy to really increase the area under the curve, a lot of what is achieved is that the torque gets moved around to where you (may) want it ...
But, as a practically no-cost operation, I´m pretty happy with the result.


As a dyno test, it gave satisfactory result, the runs from last yer and this year are nearly identical.

I will also update the track bike thread, but there the results were interesting at best, slightly depressing in reality, bu I will come back to that later.       



 


       

Thanks for the update.
 [popcorn]

Any more dyno testing completed? Would like to see the results and any plans for winter projects.
Your 800 makes more power than a 900ie so the work put into the motor was effective. Since the motors have similar cams it proves the engine mods and tuning were effective even though the motor has less capacity. Your 800 has more stock compression, but that porting must have worked. Pretty cool.

Have you considered a big bore kit and higher compression to improve the lower range torque? Or just leave it? ;D

Of course I have   ;D

I won´t do any big bore, but I might consider hi-comp pistons. Due to our 95-octane fuel now beein 10% ethanol now, I always use the 98-octane, which is ( I think) 5%, lower at any rate, I might just as well drop in a set of hi-comps. For the time beeing, I´ll leave the bike as is, and cross my fingers it will stay as reliable as it has been so far. I know where a hi-comp project would lead .... Carillo, balanced crank, you know the proces :-)

Next on the project will be a cylinder head flow bench, I need to know what I´m doing when doing porting jobs.

 

Yup, 5%, look at the petrol hose handle.

Up here, the riding season is more or less over, the track riding season for sure, so it´s off to the garage again. As it turned out, the riding season for the 800 ended a few weeks earlier than planned, but more on that later.

Modification-wise, not too much has happened since I did the tuning a few years back, but last winter I decided to do a suspension experiment that´s been on the book for a few years; I had this ST4S fork, and the GSXR 12 mm cartridge-rod cartridge with midvalve shimstack and top-out spring. Just a matter of matching it all ….
I was not too keen on the GSXR rebound piston, partly because it´s almost impossible to assemble the midvalve shimstack on it, so I decided to use standard Showa rebound pistons, and for the compression side I decided to use a set of Racetech Gold Valves I had lying around. Unfortunately, I all but forgot to make any photos, but in parallell I did an Andreani cartridge installation in an Aprilia fork in the same way, so I´ll use some pictures from that job.

I´ve had some good advice from my professional suspension friends, who recommended I use a mid-valve with a certain amount of “float", meaning that the clamp shim of the mid-valve shimstack is not actually clamped, it´s all held down with the check valve spring and allowed to lift slightly from the piston face before the actual shimstack starts to work. The amount of float should be in the region of 0.15 to 0.40 mm or so.
After some deliberation, I decided the easiest way to limit float was with a correct-thickness stop shim under the hat washer. It took quite a lot of trying, but with the flat-grinder in my friends garage I finally arrived at as close as I could get to 0.15 mm of float; I decided to start at the lower end since it would be easy to increase by grinding a few 1/100 mm off the stop shim. 
Since the midvalve will contribute to compression damping, I used my Restackor SW to find a softer variant of the compression shimstack, and for the midvalve I basically used the GSXR set-up which should be pretty safe from a cavitation point of view, especially with the added float. Basically, an educated guess at best 😊

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52391585707_679720a523_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nPEz8R)2021-12-23 10.36.31 (https://flic.kr/p/2nPEz8R) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I was very pleasantly surprised at how well it turned out. It´s the first time I´ve tried a midvalve setup, and it´s by far the most comfortable fork I´ve had on any bike so far, it´s better than the Öhlins R&T43 previously on the bike, so that fork will be the next up for a midvalve installation.
I was then also pleasantly surprised when taking the bike to the track, it´s very well controlled, and try as I might, I´ve not been able to bottom it out. I´ve dialled in a couple clicks of comp damping (like 12 clicks out of 17) and left it at that, road or track.   
 
For various reasons, the m800 became my main, and finally only bike this summer, road and track. It even had to make do for the yearly club championship, doing well enough in the first race, but unfortunately the 2nd race was rained out, me not having time to swap the slick front to the ordinary S22.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52392955755_591487d904_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nPMApn)286424998_5723671777661311_7213917719655915318_n (https://flic.kr/p/2nPMApn) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Anyway, on a track day in early August I noticed the motor had started using oil, as well as leaving an oil scent trail. Since I don´t like more or less sudden changes of this kind, I parked the bike until I got home.
Back home, both cranking pressure and leak-down values had gone pretty markedly in the wrong direction on the vertical cylinder since I tested them not too far back earlier this summer, as well as the values from before the season started. So the motor will come apart, and depending on what I find, and what budget I can afford, maybe now some proper hi-comp pistons will come. That would also allow for some port and combustion chamber mods without loosing compression, this time documented on my flow test bench. Lots to learn 😊 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378845416_66c7777f0a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nNxgTE)2022-09-23 09.32.15 (https://flic.kr/p/2nNxgTE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Sorry about your motor. It's an opportunity now I guess. That cam could work well with higher compression.

The dark art of suspension work is fascinating. So the mid valve gives compliance without losing race track level control? So no more compromise with control vs comfort?

As far as I´m concerned, yes. However, I only have this one example to judge from so far.
The theory with the midvalve is that it adds high-speed damping, and the floats limits the low-speed damping damping contribution of the midvalve. I would like to test this fork on a suspension dyno to better know whats going on ....  

 Well, finally I did waste some money on the m800: +1 mm inlet valves from Kämna, and a set of 796 hi-comp pistons from Pistal.
The pistons were bought on a bit of a chance, since I could not find any dedicated m800 hi-comp pistons. As it turned out, it would be a lot of work, not least of my own making.
Anyway, I´ve spent a lot of time on the flow bench this winter season, as I have a lot to learn and even after all the hours spent there now, I´ve obviously just started scratching the surface. I´ve done quite a lot of testing, grinding and epoxying on a M1000DS head, and on an ST2 head. After that, I´ve ported a set of m695 heads for my buddys TT1/2 750 cc classic racer, and the heads for my m800. As I half knew the valves, porting and combustion chambers are the same on all 695 (apart from 7 mm valve stems), 800s, 903s and 944 motors, but the actual execution are a bit different.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766740285_cc76297f87_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPkwe)20230207_195002 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPkwe) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I don´t remember what the m800 heads were like when standard (“blind” ported a couple of year ago), but the ST2 heads have some basic factory machining in the ports, whereas the 695 heads appear to be as-cast.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766742470_5bd659e608_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPmaU)20221129_094817 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPmaU) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As such, the 695 are (in my view) pretty OK from a surface finish point of view, but pretty awful from a “macro-finish” point of view: uneven and wavy.     
In general, I think these motors have poor ports, with the turn down towards the valve being far too abrupt, and the port very “low” as it approaches this area.
I warned my buddy about me porting the 695 heads, since I basically don´t know what I´m doing, but having seen the ports, I think it would be pretty difficult do make them worse  … 
Anyway, having done a lot of testing, I think I´ve found a routine to assure my measurements are repeatable, and by doing modifications in very small steps, with testing after each step, I at least managed some progress (as measured on the flow bench, nota bene, the dyno will tell eventually …), and I´ve avoided drastic changes that might look good flow-wise, but which are bad acc to people with lots of experience, like opening up the throat diameter, or the port diameter in general.
The Duc ports also appear to be somewhat strangled in the valve guide area, so a lot of effort went into slightly widening and cleaning up the ports I this area, making the floor turn as smooth as possible, and cleaning up the transition port to valve seat insert area. On the 695, a substantial improvement in flow came from just evening out the port walls all the way from the flange onwards, without increasing diameter substantially.

On the m800 I also had the +1m inlet installed, and I was surprised at how big an improvement that seemingly small change made to the flow, especially at low-to-mid lift.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52765790462_48b33548e5_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooJtaY)M800V_04_05 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooJtaY) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

In the graph, I have used the stock ST2 head as 100% at all lifts, and related all the others to that baseline.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766768185_4711be126f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPtPg)2V relative flow comparison (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPtPg) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The pistons would have fitted as they came, but I was not completely happy with the slightly big squish, and the resulting compression ratio above 12:1 was a bit much for my taste.
Previously, I´ve used a sleeve to hold the piston in the lathe for machining, but it´s a pretty bad solutions since it is very difficult to get the piston to run true. I was adviced by a member on the german forum to use the machined “band” at the bottom of the piston instead. I feel a bit unhappy for not coming up with this myself, after all I´ve worked several years with pistons … too many years ago, maybe.
With this adaptor, it also became possible to machine the inlet valve pockets slightly.
Initially, I planned to use a 0.2 mm base gasket, an machine the piston top as required for a 0.9 or so mm squish height, and a compression ratio of about 11.5:1. In the event, I was a little too frivolous when machining the valve pockets, and had to take the base gaskets away completely to th to the right(ish)  CR. No problem, really, but I felt very nervous about taking away too much again, with no reasonable solution.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766336501_c0969baa75_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooMgur)2023-03-04 16.57.51 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooMgur) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766334141_ee3715db66_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooMfMK)2023-03-05 17.35.26 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooMfMK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It also became very obvious how difficult it is to measure compression ratio correctly and repeatably, and after taking 0.15 mm off the top of the pistons, I´ve measured them 10 to 15 times each, with procedure improvement attempts. In the end, the results were almost acceptably as far as repeatability goes.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766820598_0e44d0f28a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPKoW)2023-02-21 09.47.57 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooPKoW) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on FlickrBild byrett

The hor cylinder is (as far as I can establish) 11.64 (mean from 7 measurements) with 11.59/11.71 as low/high, and 11.54 (from 5 measurements) with 11.52/11.57 as low/high for the ver cylinder. I have not found a solution why one was easier to measure than the other ….

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52766330061_8ca7513acd_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ooMezp)2023-03-22 15.27.06 (https://flic.kr/p/2ooMezp) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I hope this will bring some performance gains, and a motor that will run nicely on road and track. I hope to be able to put the bike on the same dyno as previously, in order to get an easy comparison. 
So far, I can just cross my fingers 😊           

Looking forward to the dyno results.  [thumbsup] :)

Hi,
time flies, bike runs but no dyno results as of yet, more info to follow sometime soon(ish). Meanwhile, I suppose it really was time to re-pack the silencer ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53065889212_ad00de7a63_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oRfy5m)2023-07-22 11.49.26 (https://flic.kr/p/2oRfy5m) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

 ;D

As every year, summer is done before you know what happened  ... but having slept a night on the status described, I decided that was not good enough; I had to find more reliable and repeatable measurement methods, and start all over, as far as possible.

The most obvious point to start was to make a plexiglass plate that fits in the cylinder recess in the cylinder head, eliminating the need to calculate and correct for the “recess volume” in the head.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53102280953_446d8bc889_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oUt55a)2023-03-26 17.17.49 (https://flic.kr/p/2oUt55a) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I also did some experimentation with different measurement fluids (the pic shows some light oil), but in the end I came back to the “camping stove spirit”, don´t know what that might be called in English. It is also difficult to get all the air bubbles out, since they tend to stay attached to any edges. Surface tension also makes filling the narrowest parts of the squish area difficult, but that´s as good as I can get it, I believe. With the help of the tripod tablet and some patience, I think I managed to get as much air out as possible, and subsequent measurements indicated that repeatability had improved substantially.  
Next problem as to accurately measure piston top volume. In order to eliminate various height measurements when using the motor cylinder, I turned a measurement proper diameter cylinder with a small ridge to fix the piston positively in position. With this cylinder, the above mentioned plexiglass plate, and a bottom plate for the cylinder, I could measure the cylinder volume with and without piston, using just the burette, no height measurements and resulting calculations.  

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53101771726_731587fcae_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oUqsGo)2023-03-29 16.02.22 (https://flic.kr/p/2oUqsGo) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Finally, previously I had used a 50 ml burette, necessitating a re-fill since all measurements  are more than 50 ml. To eliminate this, I ordered a 100 ml burette, allowing measurements on one fill. The negative with this is that its only marked every 2 ml, making readings slightly less accurate, but in the end the results are more accurate.      
 
Having done all the measurements anew, I had to juggle base gasket thickness, remaining piston roof thickness, ending up with a 0.25 mm base gasket, made from brass sheet:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53139614167_ce1acf8808_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oXLpWg)2023-02-24 10.44.57 (https://flic.kr/p/2oXLpWg) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The measurements ended up as follows (last digit left just for reference, I use them as an indication only):

Combustion chamber horisontal: 52.22 ml (mean from 6 measurements), min 52.0, max 52.5.
Combustion chamber vertical: 52.7 ml  (mean from 6 measurements), min 52.6, max 53.0.
Mesurement cylinder (empty): 84.54 ml, 0.4 ml difference min-max.
Piston top volume hor: 21.92 ml, (mean from 4 measurements), 0.1 ml difference min-max.  
Piston top volume ver: 22.35, (mean from 4 measurements), 0.0 difference.
 
CR horizontal: 12.04:1
CR vertical: 12.02:1
 
Cylinder base gasket 0.25 mm, Squish (approx 10 in from cylinder wall) 1.09 bis 1.13 mm measured above the piston pin.
Basically, I think CR is actually close t 12:1 on both, and certainly between 11.9:1 and 12.1:1.
 
While I was at it, I also made a measuremet with the stock piston. They have a squish band machined to give a squish height of 0.9 – 1.0 mm without base gasket; giving a CR of 10.5:1. SO, in my experience, as they come from Ducati, both the 800 and 900 motors come with lower than nominal CR.      
 
By now the time had come to assemble the motor. The 800 motors have an 18 mm piston pin, the Pistals have a 1.5 mm pin circlip which turned out to be virtually impossible to install. Bu buddy (who has stronger and possbily harder thumbs than I …)  managed to get one in on each piston when oing it on the work bench, but on the motor ….. impossible, especially with the rest of the bike in the way, and the reinforcement ridges on the piston blocking access ….
Fortunately, I had watched a video from Mahle motorsport on circlip installation, so I made a tool along the lines of one the showed. It did not work perfectly, but with some juggling, I finally had the circlips where they belong.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53102190565_ae51e950ea_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oUsBcK)20230418_103358 (https://flic.kr/p/2oUsBcK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Now with substantially more compression, I had expected starting to be reluctant, but the motor started almost at the touch of the button ad idling quite nicely. Cranking pressure and leak-down testing indicated all to be OK, more cranking pressure and just a few % leakage on both cylinders. Immediately noticeable were also a distinct piston noise, as expected due to the running clearances of 0.10 to 0.11 mm. Irritating but, but (probably) not really harmful.

The first road trips , and first few track days, were spent doing road tune on the Microtec ECU, and as indicated by the running characteristics, and spark plug appearance, the mapping now seems to be OK. As for power, it´s still not a power monster after all it´s just a Monster 800,  but judging from feel and GPS tracking on track some improvement has been made.
On the uphill “drag strip” front straight of the Mantorp track here in Sweden, the max GPS speed has improved from 205 kmh last year to 209 kmh this year. May not sound much, but there´s also a difference in how this speed is achieved, and it now makes sense to use 6th gear where earlier I would not get out of 5th gear.
Originally, it was my intention to strip and refurbish the whole motor last winter, but since I have never found anything on the sump plug of filter screen, and while I got stuck on the flow bench, I di not do that. However, when changing oil after about 1000 km of mostly track riding, I found some shiny, magnetic flakes on the sump plug. Changing oil again some 1000 km later, I found a lot more:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53101768246_434b114727_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oUqrEo)2023-07-13 15.39.35 (https://flic.kr/p/2oUqrEo) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I sent the pic to Brad Black, figuring he´s seen anything there is to be seen on a sump plug; his verdict was main bearings of starter clutch. I also discussed this with a duc club member who´s running a small Duc workshop in Norway, who agreed but also noted that main bearings are more likely, since the starter clutch has a much bigger “magnetic plug” much closer ….. this sounded plausible to me, so I decided to park the bike for the season, unfortunately withyout a dyno run.. Other projects will decide if it will be up and running for next summer!      

Sorry the bearings gave up. Your mate makes a good point about the "giant sump plug magnet'. But maybe change the starter bearing and examine it first.

You really found some great solutions with the tools you produce. Impressive. That is a skill I envy.

It's great to see you develop your porting skill and testing procedures.  I'll be seeking your advice soon.

12:1 is on the high side and I wonder if there could be any power gains and increased safety margin with some ignition adjustments. The hotter cams at least bleed off some cranking pressure.

Impressive work as always. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for sharing! [thumbsup]

HNY [beer]
Any progress and updates ?

Hi, Happy New Year to you as well, and thanks for asking :-)

Not much has happened on this one, but I'll give updates on both projects in the near future.

As it happens, not too much has happened so far, since I´ve been spending my time on the downdraught heads for the HYM1100 motor. Right now, that project is at a point where some investigation is needed to decide where to go, so I´ve decided to tear down the M800 motor and start with an external clean-up. Since it will be a complete overhaulc with bearings etc, I want the motor to look pretty on the outside as well.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459350628_1a50d6379e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps29rS)2024-01-06 16.38.34 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps29rS) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Also. the cylinder heads will need some attenton, since some of the plastic filler has started to lift at the edges, not sure what to do there, but some porting work will certainly be needed. It may not show too well in this pic, but it´s there ....

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459573689_6e0a561316_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3hKK)2023-09-28 10.07.41 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3hKK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr       

So, that´s it for now. Not too exciting :-)