Sorry if this topic has been done to death. I looked around a little but didn't see a thread for this specific subject.
Now that I have a direction for the rear suspension, [thank you] I'm wondering about options for the front. I've read about the stock Showa and it's shortcomings and I can feel it's lacking. I can't afford a Ohlins and am not sure about the degree of difficulty surrounding swapping out different, "superior" forks off of a Honda, Kawasaki etc. sport bike, as well as the expense. However, with 31K miles on the bike, I think the forks need some work. Any suggestions?
I believe I could rebuild the current ones. It's affordable and doable for my skill set....with adult supervision. I've done simple fork maintenance before but not on inverted. Anyway, is it worth it to do a rebuild or am I just putting lipstick on a pig?....[go back to above "different forks"?]
I've read about rebuild kits from Race Tech. I was wondering what is generally thought of them and the end result. How complete is the kit? Would I need to get new fork and dust seals as well? New fork bushings or are they included in a kit? What kind of fork springs are suggested to get? I know Progressive and Race Tech have some available for my bike. A while ago, somebody on the discussion board mentioned something about a linear spring [I may have that term wrong?] or something like that. With a updated/upgraded fork kit, would I still use the same viscosity oil or something different?
Any special "must have" tools for the job?
Again, thanks to all.
Many will disagree, but for your riding, I think a rebuild along with a gold valve upgrade, and spring change for your weight, for your riding parameters, you'll think you're riding a different bike.
The upgrades you're planning for the rear won't be as effective if you ignore the other end.
+1
My old M900 I recently purchased came with a revalved/resprung front end (non adjustable Showa) and an Ohlins DU440 out back. It handles great, very poised, taut and planted, yet supple enough for our crappy canyon roads.
Thank you ducpainter and koko64. [bow_down] Does anybody have any idea how complete the Race Tech rebuild kits are? [I've not seen any other kit brands for sale] I don't know if they come with new fork and dust seals or do I need to get them?, as well as new bushings, separately?
Any thoughts on either Progressive or Race Tech springs? .... or something else? Stay with Ducati suggested OEM oil weight for the fork?
Ya know, I figured this is THE bike I'll have for kickin' ass on the twisty roads or sweeping curves ... and for gettin off the line! .... and I'll have for as long as I can. It's worth putting time and a few bucks into trying to bring out the best handling characteristics that it can have on my budget. New tires are coming next.
Blessings upon you all
Cheers. [thumbsup]
It's worth taking off the forks and shock and taking them (or sending them) to a pro suspension guy. If an aftermarket shock is out of your budget you can get it custom revalved and re-sprung to your needs and weight. It's important to communicate well with the suspension guy about your needs.
The change is night and day.
Quote from: koko64 on October 06, 2017, 08:12:11 PM
Cheers. [thumbsup]
It's worth taking off the forks and shock and taking them (or sending them) to a pro suspension guy. If an aftermarket shock is out of your budget you can get it custom revalved and re-sprung to your needs and weight. It's important to communicate well with the suspension guy about your needs.
The change is night and day.
Yep, the magic is in the shim stack. The specialist should interview you and take a peak at your tires. Plus Race Tech's recommendations are a bit off the wall. You are paying mostly for the knowledge. Nobody near you, well he can't look at your tires, but he will make you happy.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18933.0
Well,
the topic may have been done to death, but everyone has to start somewhere.
Basically, it all depends on how much money one wants to spend, and how much work one is prepared to do.
With 31K miles in the forks, I would definitely change seals, dust scrapers and bushings, and give the fork a thorough clean-up, inside and outside. Personally; I would also pull the cartridge apart and clean everything up, but since you need to drill the dimples locking the lock ring in place, this is a little bit more involved. At least clean it out with thin damper oil or something.
I use SKF fork seals and dust scrapers for any fork I do, seems to be working really well.
As far as modifications go, the springs are definitely the right place to start, the 2-stage stock springs are ridiculously soft initially, then getting pretty stiff late on.
Acc. to the Duc owners handbook, the 2001 M900 has 43 mm stanchions, meaning there are a lot of springs that will fit (the 41 mm forks are much worse for springs). I use 240 mm long Öhlins springs which are available in 0.5 N/mm steps from 7 to 11 or so N/mm. To compensate for the difference in length, I make some spacer tubes from 2mm wall thickness alu tubing which I put at the bottom of the fork, same system as the SBK forks use; you also need the SBK fork washer between the spring and spacer for the spring to rest on.
Modifying hydraulics are a bit more complicated, in my opinion (and experience) putting in a shim-and-piston kit will bring nothing unless you modify the rebound circuit. However, I think Brad Black concluded in one of his blog posts that using very thin oil, allowing the rebound adjuster to be in a more closed position, does improve compression incrementally, but I have not tried that.
Modifying the rebound circuit (to get the compression circuit to work properly) is possible, but not quite cheap, and requires some workshop facilities.
Dropping in a cartridge from a GSXR Showa is also a possibility:
http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.se/2014/07/gsxr-fork-cartridges-in-41mm-showa.html
.... as is a complete GSXR fork swap (several threads about that on this forum).
Oil level, BTW; I usually start at 120 mm (forks compressed, no spring or spacers).
I think that doing the servicing with new seals, bushings and oil, and proper springs will be a huge improvment. Any more that that is quite a bit of work and expense, and something you can decide on after testing the "Stage 1" service / upgrade.
I'm no expert.
I have an expert do my suspension work.
You should too.
I can recommend one if you're willing to ship.
Thanks everybody. It sounds as if the Race Tech kit to rebuild the front suspension is best left to experts? I've done service on traditional upright forks [oil, spacers, springs, seals] and think I could handle that level of service, including new bushings, on these Ducati inverted forks. Of course, I didn't have to remove the forks on other bikes so this will be a bit of an ed-u-ma-cation.
So... if YOU guys are saying that you'd leave anything more than the oil, springs, seals, etc. to a suspension expert, well, so be it! I don't need to get in over my head and lay awake at night AND end up with sh*tty suspension.
Just to be clear: the consensus is that changing the springs, seals, oil, bushings is still going to greatly [or at least noticeably] improve the suspension without the rebuild kit?....and is well worth the effort without the kit? .... or for sure have them rebuilt with a kit, new gold valves, etc? I would be willing to remove them and ship to a guy who knows how to do it right IF that's the way to do it. Any idea what somebody might charge to do a thorough rebuild? I did get the contact info on Eric @ Clubhouse Sports, thank you!
...as I tell people around me: "explain it like you're talking to a 10 year old and we'll be fine"
No doubt you can handle the work yourself. Like I said, it is in the tuning. This is where Eric comes in. He will get those forks best as possible without going for high bucks upgrades like the K5 valves, Ohlins RTs or a Superbike fork upgrade. Hmmm...GXSR cartidges.
Call Eric...be prepared to spend some time on the phone. He'll give you accurate information, and recommendations.
My opinion is that stock forks are undersprung and over damped for the average person. Go for the gold valves and straight rate springs, or a gsxr conversion. The bike is plenty powerful. The most effective upgrades are suspension.
Thanks again guys. I sent Eric an email inquiry and also sent one to a local Ducati guy who's known for dyno tuning. Maybe he's a suspension guy too?
So NOW I think I get it. Eric [or somebody else] has a conversation with me about my specific needs, possibly builds the correct kit based on that information [NOT a Race Tech off-the-shelf kit?] and then I purchase the kit from him and install it.... or send him the forks if I'm not comfortable with the project? or he points me in the right direction for a kit?
I agree with you ducpainter, other than dialing it in, the engine is just fine for me. If I wanted THAT much more power I'd get a different bike. For me, expensive engine work isn't on the list of things to do to this beautiful monster.
[thumbsup]
Sending the forks can save a great deal of time tuning and testing them. An expert will return them 99% correct rather than having to remove them, work on them, reinstall them and test them again a few times until its what you want. If you want to get into this stuff and have the time then go for it. I have tried it and had the forks off and on 3-4 times before I got it right-ish. I figured it would be more cost/time effective to pick up an extra shift or two at work and just pay the man.
If the main components arrive all set up and all you have to do is complete assembly, set oil level/air gap and install and test then maybe its worth it. Depends how much money you save, how much time you want to save or how much you want to learn.
koko64, I gotta admit I'm a little on the fence about doing the job myself.
It sounds like, in order for the suspension to be set up as well as possible, somebody with a sh*tload of experience should be involved, either just turning the forks over to them or somebody pulling together a rebuild kit - specific to my riding and weight?
New springs, seals, bushings and oil just wouldn't be enough?
That's correct. Having the forks set up and tuned to you the rider is all the difference. When the bike is set up right it's amazing how fast and how safely you can go through corners. The gain in confidence and feel of what the tyres are doing is huge. Emergency moves in traffic become safer too.
So, I guess you are pretty much decided to take off the forks and take them to the specialist, correct?
May I suggest you to find your suspension guy first, then, order rear shock through him and have him to do the front forks for you at the same time?
It is far better than buying a rear shock from one place, buying valve kit, springs,etc for your forks from another, trying to do the work all by yourself. (or, have one guy to do the rear shock, have another for the forks...)
You know, the front forks and rear shock have to work as a whole, work together, in harmony. If you pick up all the components randomly from different places and put together by yourself, you may never find the way to make them work together.
Someone with the knowledge and correct information about you can get you the forks and rear shock as a "suspension system" rather than "two suspension components".
And, (this is somewhat important) if you ever get lost while trying all the different settings, you can ask him how to set the forks and rear shocks back to the starting point. (This happens more often than you may think, with "fully adjustable" suspension. Keep the small note book and write down the setting change, as well as why you did it and what change in bike's behavior did it make.)
Hey Diamonddog-2 you are getting so much good info from the replies on this thread and your shock thread. We are all kind of lowering your expectations and raising them at the same time.
One of the weirdest thngs about motorbike suspension is that the better it is, the less it seems to do.
Or to put it another way, you spend all this money and the suspension doesn't get any better. But roads get a lot smoother.
It's quite counterintuitive.
Thanks all. Yes, S21FOLGORE, I've been thinking the same things: wait until I've found a suspension guy and possibly order the rear through him as we're working on the front. Also keeping a record of how [if] I'm adjusting the rear/front and have a baseline setting to work off of. Great points. I had imagined getting lost in the range of possible settings and wondering how to get back to a "here's where I started" setting.
Thank you, Moronic, for the link on your experience. I'm pretty sure my level of "feel" for my bike isn't nearly as well developed as most of you here but I'd really like the bike to be the best possible [safest?] ride I can have. Getting to know what it feels like it's lacking or has too much of seems like a quest worth working on. ..... "the roads get smoother" sounds great to me. To be able to feel that the bike has the best possible contact with the road, at all times, is worth pursuing with this bike. New tires are gonna help too.
I believe I've figured out a spot to park the bike for the off season winters [of approx.10 months here in Minnesota [roll] ] that has some heat when I need it. I'll be able to fiddle with the bike as needed while I wait for spring. It takes some pressure off of getting things started right away and trying to sort out and cram all the engine tuning and suspension work into a small window of time. I'd like the bike to be serviced, tuned and correctly "suspended" by spring. I'm not sure yet, how much I can spend on the work, but at the very least, I'll rebuild the forks with new springs, seals, oil, etc....
Today, however, is a beautiful day for getting on it! My mate Chris and I will be getting out on some of the best, twisting, sweeping roads in the area. Mississippi River Valley area near Lake Pepin in the southern-ish area of the state is where I've gotten most of my tickets and warnings. The Ducati is meant for just these roads. I'll ride today with an extra sense of awareness to the feel of the bike's suspension and what I can tell Eric [or whoever] in order to help them help me help the bike.......and make the roads smoother.
You guys are great. Thanks!
You're on a good path [thumbsup]
After your ride, take several and close-up pictures of your tires. They speak the truth and will be valuable for an expert.
So......I finally had the chance to take the duc out yesterday on some excellent roads on a warm, sunny, fall day. Temps in the mid-70's, 240 miles, a lunch, 1 scenic overlook pit stop and 5.5 hours later, my friend Chris looks at me and says: "well, none of the work YOU did fell off!"
A "dear diary..." day indeed. For sure my first, long and hard ride of my ownership.
I got to wring the monster out a bit [no tickets!] and acquired a little better feel for the suspension dislikes. I now love this bike even more in spite of the suspension, seating and untuned engine issues. Today, I spoke with suspension guru Eric at Clubhouse Sports. He was kind enough to impart some wisdom as to what to start looking for, in terms of sag as well as try to figure out where to current rebound, compression and preload settings are and where to begin resetting them at. Also to see if it's a stock spring on the rear. Got it. Cool. He also suggested that the hard seat issue I have and the cramped knees might both be dealt with by padding the seat higher. Maybe by 1.5 to 2 inches taller? [my guess]. Talked to a guy in Iowa who specializes in reupholstering, padding and gel inserts for motorcycles using stock seat pans. That could be the answer to the 2 comfort issues.
As it turns out, the local engine tuner, Doug Lofgren [who Eric knows of and highly recommends!] has a local suspension tuner he sends all older Ducati owners to, Anthony Decker. Anthony's been working exclusively on Ducati for 10 years and is Ohlins factory certified. He has Ohlins front and adjustable rear on his '02 S4, 1 of 3 ducs he rides.
So this is where it got kind of interesting. He said that a rebuilt rear stock Sachs with a different spring might be just fine for the type of cantilevered suspension that's on my M900 S. I was kind of surprised. I believe his thinking was that a more expensive shock wasn't going to add any real gains over a well rebuilt Sachs. He also suggested that there may be some kind of binding issue that may POSSIBLY adding to my suspension woes but he has to inspect it to confirm anything. Interesting. His position is kinda: "look, I'll do what YOU want me to do. You can spend a lot more on the rear without getting much more performance for the money."
It sounded as if he could rebuild the front using new springs, gold valves, oil, seals, etc, etc, rebuild the rear with a new spring, recharge the gas, etc and do it for around $600. If that works, it'd be really cool but, after all the talk re: crappy stock Sachs shocks [as well as what my own current experience says] on my other thread, I wonder..........1 man's ceiling is another man's floor? Could a rebuild bring it around?
Anyway, I always appreciate the collective experience on the board. Please, as always, feel free to give me some feedback. I figured I'd get the seat padded before the suspension work is done, that way, my riding position and weight distribution is sorted out before the front end work is done?
Thanks.
Yes. a stock shock with a linear spring and re-valve is quite good. In fact, just loosing the progressive spring is enough to make one happy. Do keep in mind that Sachs shock does have a problem of the chrome wearing off the shaft in , well, at least on my old 750, at around 30K miles so that money might be better spent on a better shock.
Yes, if the bike is not comfortable, fix that first. Rear sets are another option. Legs go back, knees go down a bit. Negative is you will be folded a bit more.
Local engine tuner? More like legend. You couldn't be in better hands. http://lofgrenperformance.com
A good custom seat makes an enormous difference to comfort.
And you might not need to go as high as you think. (Remember, more seat height means you lean further forward to the handlebar, and raises your centre of mass.)
I asked for half an inch on mine. I was amazed at the improvement. Solved the knee pain issue completely. (I'm about 32-inches inseam, trouser size.)
Evidently, for me it was a threshold thing: the extra half-inch extended the knee beyond the point where pain was created.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fTTZ6wz/1/930a3fe6/M/i-fTTZ6wz-M.jpg)
On the stock seat, I was good for about half an hour. On this set-up, I am perfectly comfy for the range of the tank. Maybe a little butt and knee soreness towards the end of a day.
You could tape some high-density foam to your seat, and experiment with heights before you commit.
Quote from: howie on October 09, 2017, 09:21:42 PM
Yes. a stock shock with a linear spring and re-valve is quite good. In fact, just loosing the progressive spring is enough to make one happy. Do keep in mind that Sachs shock does have a problem of the chrome wearing off the shaft in , well, at least on my old 750, at around 30K miles so that money might be better spent on a better shock.
Yes, if the bike is not comfortable, fix that first. Rear sets are another option. Legs go back, knees go down a bit. Negative is you will be folded a bit more.
Local engine tuner? More like legend. You couldn't be in better hands. http://lofgrenperformance.com
As Howie notes, you could probably not be in better hands. I suppose, Doug and Brad Black are bout on th same level of legendary.
As for the shocks, I have no personal experience of the Sachs re-build / modification, but I know it can be done. However, not al components are (to my knowledge, that is) available as spare parts, and some pats are prone to breaking (the rebound adjuster, for instance). i suppose part of what you pay for with the aftermarket shocks is that they are fully re-buildable.
My first modification, many years ago, to the adjustable Showas, was to install a set of Gold Valves. Long time ago, and new to Ducati and suspension, but as I remember it was slightly better than stock, but it may have been wishful thinking.
What clearly did not change was the adjustability of the forks; reaction to compression adjuster setting is zero, so I ran them just one click open, just in case .... there is to my knowledge no way to improve that other than modifying the rebound circuit. But I don't know all, and after I found a method to cure the problem once and for all, I did not bother trying anything else.
There is also a further problem with the stock lay-out; due to the damper oil sparaying out the top of the cartridge rod thru the re-bound adjuster, the oil aerates heavily which clearly affects damping performance.
Still, a good overhaul with proper springs and oil etc., should see you way better off than where you are now.
Comfort is also very important, be it seat, footpegs, or suspension. I think one big advantage of quality suspension on the street is that it allows the use of a quite "loose" set-up without losing control; thats how I set my road bikes up, and with all settings stiffened up, it's good for the track as well. At my speeds, nota bene ;)
Before modding saddle, footpegs etc:
Is the rear wishbone at it lowest?
If so, start w making it 6mm longer.
My first big "Aha'" moment!
More weight front makes whole bike less mushy.
I ended up w 12mm raise.
And how much of fork legs is above triple?
Quote from: greenmonster on October 11, 2017, 10:29:32 AM
Before modding saddle, footpegs etc:
Is the rear wishbone at it lowest?
If so, start w making it 6mm longer.
My first big "Aha'" moment!
More weight front makes whole bike less mushy.
I ended up w 12mm raise.
And how much of fork legs is above triple?
[thumbsup]
Thanks all ...... again. [bow_down] I have the rear wheel off for new skins. It might make the wishbone adjustment easier?.....except I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I'll see what I can find on the internet and figure out if I can clarify it. I have dyno appointment with Doug set up for this Saturday. Honestly, I had no idea how much the guy is respected and well known, apparently internationally. Glad he's here. Also, If he's also recommended Anthony Decker as the local suspension guy, I'd hazard a guess that Anthony's a solid resource.
I'll take a look at the wishbone linkage to see if i can figure out the adjustment 1st, before I begin adding unnecessary height to the seat. Due to any additional forward lean [weight] on the front, I'll try and figure that wishbone height/seat height part out before seeing Anthony. I think I'd leave any footpeg/rearsets as a last resort. Moronic, I'm 32 inch inseam too. I'll proceed cautiously and put a 1/2 inch pad under me first. Thanks.
I managed to find a local bike shop the really suites me too. The guys seem REALLY enthusiastic about being a resource, getting riders together and creating a community.
Getting this bike's suspension issue sorted is worth the effort and a little expense too.
Rear wheel/swing must be almost in the air for
wishbone to be unloaded and easy to adjust.
Thanks greenmonster. I just figured out where the wishbone adjustment is. The forum I read suggested that 5 to 7 mm out from it's lowest setting is about maximum height. Mine is at 5 - 6mm as it sits.
You can go farther than that. I'll measure mine tomorrow, or Saturday morning.
12 mm is the farthest.
The rule is: Leave at least the thickness of the screw in = is the screw 10mm thick,
leave 10mm in.
Do keep in mind the more you raise the rear the quicker the steering. A little at a time.
Thanks greenmonster. I'll do the wishbone adjustment out to 10 to 12mm once the bike comes back from the tuner and see how that feels. On the short ride out to drop the bike off, I had put a folded towel on the seat to both rise my butt and to pad it a little. Seemed better for the knees and posterior. I'll try a specific 1/2 thick dense foam next and take it out for a longer ride. Along with the 10-12 mm adjustment, 1/2 inch additional seat padding may be just fine for my knees and arse. Yes, a little adjustment at a time makes sense.
Thanks! [bow_down]
Before wishbone ajustments:
How much of forks showing above triple?
Diamonddog-2, from your post above it is not clear whether you are aware that the wishbone adjustment won't affect the seat-pegs-bars relationship. Except in so far as it tilts your entire posture a little more forward, which may move a (very) little of your weight from the seat to the handlebar when you are cruising along.
The point of extending that wishbone is just to affect the way the bike steers (and add some cornering clearance). Lifting the bike there steepens the effective steering head angle, which in turn reduces trail - the measurement that defines how the steering self-centres. Going higher reduces steering effort, and on the flip side reduces stability.
Yes it's a good idea, up to a point, and I have gone that way on mine (later frame, so I can't compare directly as others here can). Arguably, a Monster stock is too stable - set up that way by the factory so that less experienced riders feel comfortable.
As suggested, this is something you can experiment with before you do the suspension, and it is plausible that if you find a happier place with the steering then you are better positioned to evaluate your suspension.
On the other hand, I didn't see sharper steering among your original wishes for modification. So I would argue you could also leave the wishbone alone, and sort the other stuff first.
Thanks guys. Okay, so the wishbone adjustment isn't going to change the distance between my seat and footpegs. It'll change the steering response to make it quicker, the further out it's adjusted.
Increase the seat padding to possibly alleviate my knee issue a bit and make my seat/ride more comfortable. Got it!
I picked up the bike last evening from having it tuned. Upper 40's - lower 50's F temp. outside......but I didn't care. Tires and road too cold and too much traffic to get much of a feel for the engine except it SEEMED to feel stronger/quicker on a short burst when the freeway briefly opened up. The dyno charts have the engine adding about 2.5 more H.P. and adding almost 2 ft/torque but it added almost 600 more RPM to the length of the power band. Chart has it running max. 80.56hp [@8.11 rpm] vs. 77.99 hp, max. torque is at 57.54 ft@ 6.18 rpm. The drop off went from 8500 rpm to 9100 ... IF I'm reading this right!!
What was confusing for me was the high idle I experienced. Tach was running pretty steady at 2000 to 2500 rpm at traffic lights. I made sure the fast idle [ choke ] was backed off. I'll try it again today. Weird. Maybe my heavily gloved hands were somehow an issue with the controls.
I'm trying to figure out if it's going to be possible to get the bike to the suspension tuners shop, about 35 miles away, before the snow flies here. ...... yay winter. I'd like to get some more of this done before storage.