Fork Suspension Upgrade/Rebuild 2001 M900 S

[S21FOLGORE]

So, I guess you are pretty much decided to take off the forks and take them to the specialist, correct?

May I suggest you to find your suspension guy first, then, order rear shock through him and have him to do the front forks for you at the same time?

It is far better than buying a rear shock from one place, buying valve kit, springs,etc  for your forks from another, trying to do the work all by yourself. (or, have one guy to do the rear shock, have another for the forks...)

You know, the front forks and rear shock have to work as a whole, work together, in harmony. If you pick up all the components randomly from different places and put together by yourself, you may never find the way to make them work together.
Someone with the knowledge and correct information about you can get you the forks and rear shock as a "suspension system" rather than "two suspension components".
And, (this is somewhat important) if you ever get lost while trying all the different settings, you can ask him how to set the forks and rear shocks back to the starting point. (This happens more often than you may think, with "fully adjustable" suspension. Keep the small note book and write down the setting change, as well as why you did it and what change in bike's behavior did it make.)

[Moronic]

Hey Diamonddog-2 you are getting so much good info from the replies on this thread and your shock thread. We are all kind of lowering your expectations and raising them at the same time.

One of the weirdest thngs about motorbike suspension is that the better it is, the less it seems to do.

Or to put it another way, you spend all this money and the suspension doesn't get any better. But roads get a lot smoother.

It's quite counterintuitive.

[diamonddog-2]

Thanks all.   Yes, S21FOLGORE, I've been thinking the same things:  wait until I've found a suspension guy and possibly order the rear through him as we're working on the front. Also keeping a record of how [if] I'm adjusting the rear/front and have a baseline setting to work off of.  Great points.  I had imagined getting lost in the range of possible settings and wondering how to get back to a "here's where I started" setting.

Thank you, Moronic, for the link on your experience. I'm pretty sure my level of "feel" for my bike isn't nearly as well developed as most of you here but I'd really like the bike to be the best possible [safest?] ride I can have. Getting to know what it feels like it's lacking or has too much of seems like a quest worth working on.  ..... "the roads get smoother" sounds great to me.  To be able to feel that the bike has the best possible contact with the road, at all times, is worth pursuing with this bike.  New tires are gonna help too.

I believe I've figured out a spot to park the bike for the off season winters [of approx.10 months here in Minnesota  ] that has some heat when I need it. I'll be able to fiddle with the bike as needed while I wait for spring. It takes some pressure off of getting things started right away and trying to sort out and cram all the engine tuning and suspension work into a small window of time.  I'd like the bike to be serviced, tuned and correctly "suspended" by spring.  I'm not sure yet, how much I can spend on the work, but at the very least, I'll rebuild the forks with new springs, seals, oil, etc....

Today, however, is a beautiful day for getting on it!  My mate Chris and I will be getting out on some of the best, twisting, sweeping roads in the area. Mississippi River Valley area near Lake Pepin in the southern-ish area of the state is where I've gotten most of my tickets and warnings. The Ducati is meant for just these roads. I'll ride today with an extra sense of awareness to the feel of the bike's suspension and what I can tell Eric [or whoever] in order to help them help me help the bike.......and make the roads smoother.

You guys are great. Thanks!

[stopintime]

You're on a good path 

After your ride, take several and close-up pictures of your tires. They speak the truth and will be valuable for an expert.

[diamonddog-2]

So......I finally had the chance to take the duc out yesterday on some excellent roads on a warm, sunny, fall day.  Temps in the mid-70's, 240 miles, a lunch, 1 scenic overlook pit stop and 5.5 hours later, my friend Chris looks at me and says: "well, none of the work YOU did fell off!"
A "dear diary..." day indeed.  For sure my first, long and hard ride of my ownership.
I got to wring the monster out a bit [no tickets!] and acquired a little better feel for the suspension dislikes. I now love this bike even more in spite of the suspension, seating and untuned engine issues. Today, I spoke with suspension guru Eric at Clubhouse Sports. He was kind enough to impart some wisdom as to what to start looking for, in terms of sag as well as try to figure out where to current rebound, compression and preload settings are and where to begin resetting them at. Also to see if it's a stock spring on the rear.  Got it.  Cool.  He also suggested that the hard seat issue I have and the cramped knees might both be dealt with by padding the seat higher. Maybe by 1.5 to 2 inches taller? [my guess]. Talked to a guy in Iowa who specializes in reupholstering, padding and gel inserts for motorcycles using stock seat pans. That could be the answer to the 2 comfort issues.
As it turns out, the local engine tuner, Doug Lofgren [who Eric knows of and highly recommends!] has a local suspension tuner he sends all older Ducati owners to, Anthony Decker. Anthony's been working exclusively on Ducati for 10 years and is Ohlins factory certified. He has Ohlins front and adjustable rear on his '02 S4, 1 of 3 ducs he rides.
So this is where it got kind of interesting. He said that a rebuilt rear stock Sachs with a different spring might be just fine for the type of cantilevered suspension that's on my M900 S. I was kind of surprised.  I believe his thinking was that a more expensive shock wasn't going to add any real gains over a well rebuilt Sachs. He also suggested that there may be some kind of binding issue that may POSSIBLY adding to my suspension woes but he has to inspect it to confirm anything. Interesting.  His position is kinda: "look, I'll do what YOU want me to do. You can spend a lot more on the rear without getting much more performance for the money."
It sounded as if he could rebuild the front using new springs, gold valves, oil, seals, etc, etc, rebuild the rear with a new spring, recharge the gas, etc and do it for around $600. If that works, it'd be really cool but, after all the talk re: crappy stock Sachs shocks [as well as what my own current experience says] on my other thread, I wonder..........1 man's ceiling is another man's floor?   Could a rebuild bring it around?
Anyway, I always appreciate the collective experience on the board. Please, as always, feel free to give me some feedback. I figured I'd get the seat padded before the suspension work is done, that way, my riding position and weight distribution is sorted out before the front end work is done?
Thanks.

[Howie]

Yes. a stock shock with a linear spring and re-valve is quite good.   In fact, just loosing the progressive spring is enough to make one happy.  Do keep in mind that Sachs shock does have a problem of the chrome wearing off the shaft in , well, at least on my old 750, at around 30K miles so that money might be better spent on a better shock.

Yes, if the bike is not comfortable, fix that first.  Rear sets are another option.  Legs go back, knees go down a bit.  Negative is you will be folded a bit more.

Local engine tuner?  More like legend.  You couldn't be in better hands.   http://lofgrenperformance.com

[Moronic]

A good custom seat makes an enormous difference to comfort.

And you might not need to go as high as you think. (Remember, more seat height means you lean further forward to the handlebar, and raises your centre of mass.)

I asked for half an inch on mine. I was amazed at the improvement. Solved the knee pain issue completely. (I'm about 32-inches inseam, trouser size.)

Evidently, for me it was a threshold thing: the extra half-inch extended the knee beyond the point where pain was created.



On the stock seat, I was good for about half an hour. On this set-up, I am perfectly comfy for the range of the tank. Maybe a little butt and knee soreness towards the end of a day.

You could tape some high-density foam to your seat, and experiment with heights before you commit.

[MonsterHPD]

Yes. a stock shock with a linear spring and re-valve is quite good.   In fact, just loosing the progressive spring is enough to make one happy.  Do keep in mind that Sachs shock does have a problem of the chrome wearing off the shaft in , well, at least on my old 750, at around 30K miles so that money might be better spent on a better shock.

Yes, if the bike is not comfortable, fix that first.  Rear sets are another option.  Legs go back, knees go down a bit.  Negative is you will be folded a bit more.

Local engine tuner?  More like legend.  You couldn't be in better hands.   http://lofgrenperformance.com

As Howie notes, you could probably not be in better hands. I suppose, Doug and Brad Black are bout on th same level of legendary.

As for the shocks, I have no personal experience of the Sachs re-build / modification, but I know it can be done. However, not al components are (to my knowledge, that is) available as spare parts, and some pats are prone to breaking (the rebound adjuster, for instance). i suppose part of what you pay for with the aftermarket shocks is that they are fully re-buildable.

My first modification, many years ago, to the adjustable Showas, was to install a set of Gold Valves. Long time ago, and new to Ducati and suspension, but as I remember it was slightly better than stock, but it may have been wishful thinking.
What clearly did not change was the adjustability of the forks; reaction to compression adjuster setting is zero, so I ran them just one click open, just in case .... there is to my knowledge no way to improve that other than modifying the rebound circuit. But I don't know all, and after I found a method to cure the problem once and for all, I did not bother trying anything else.

There is also a further problem with the stock lay-out; due to the damper oil sparaying out the top of the cartridge rod thru the re-bound adjuster, the oil aerates heavily which clearly affects damping performance.

Still, a good overhaul with proper springs and oil etc., should see you way better off than where you are now.

Comfort is also very  important, be it seat, footpegs, or suspension. I think one big advantage of quality suspension on the street is that it allows the use of a quite "loose" set-up without losing control; thats how I set my road bikes up, and with all settings stiffened up, it's good for the track as well. At my speeds, nota bene   

   
         

[greenmonster]

Before modding saddle, footpegs etc:
Is the rear wishbone at it lowest?
If so, start w making it 6mm longer.
My first big "Aha'" moment!
More weight front makes whole bike less mushy.
I ended up w 12mm raise.

And how much of fork legs is above triple?

[Howie]

Before modding saddle, footpegs etc:
Is the rear wishbone at it lowest?
If so, start w making it 6mm longer.
My first big "Aha'" moment!
More weight front makes whole bike less mushy.
I ended up w 12mm raise.

And how much of fork legs is above triple?

[diamonddog-2]

Thanks all ...... again.       I have the rear wheel off for new skins. It might make the wishbone adjustment easier?.....except I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I'll see what I can find on the internet and figure out if I can clarify it.  I have dyno appointment with Doug set up for this Saturday. Honestly, I had no idea how much the guy is respected and well known, apparently internationally.  Glad he's here. Also,  If he's also recommended Anthony Decker as the local suspension guy, I'd hazard a guess that Anthony's a solid resource.

I'll take a look at the wishbone linkage to see if i can figure out the adjustment 1st, before I begin adding unnecessary height to the seat. Due to any additional forward lean [weight] on the front, I'll try and figure that wishbone height/seat height part out before seeing Anthony.  I think I'd leave any footpeg/rearsets as a last resort.  Moronic, I'm 32 inch inseam too. I'll proceed cautiously and put a 1/2 inch pad under me first. Thanks.

I managed to find a local bike shop the really suites me too. The guys seem REALLY enthusiastic about being a resource, getting riders together and creating a community.

Getting this bike's suspension issue sorted is worth the effort and a little expense too.

[greenmonster]

Rear wheel/swing must be almost in the air for
wishbone to be unloaded and easy to adjust.

[diamonddog-2]

Thanks greenmonster.  I just figured out where the wishbone adjustment is. The forum I read suggested that 5 to 7 mm out from it's lowest setting is about maximum height. Mine is at 5 - 6mm as it sits.

[ducpainter]

You can go farther than that. I'll measure mine tomorrow, or Saturday morning.

[greenmonster]

12 mm is the farthest.
The rule is: Leave at least the thickness of the screw in = is the screw 10mm thick,
leave 10mm in.